Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 4:15 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:09 PM grok via agora-discussion > wrote: > > I think what I'm actually suggesting is that there's enough precedent that > > a sympathetic judge may stay eir judgment or issue a clarifying judgment in > > favor of common practice to give players enough time to patch up the rule. > > The text of the rules has to take precedence, according to Rule 217. > If there's ambiguity it can be resolved in favor of game custom and > the game's best interests, but this appears to me to unambiguously > cause a failure. > > Rule 217/12 (Power=3) > Interpreting the Rules > > When interpreting and applying the rules, the text of the rules > takes precedence. Where the text is silent, inconsistent, or > unclear, it is to be augmented by game custom, common sense, past > judgements, and consideration of the best interests of the game. > > Definitions and prescriptions in the rules are only to be applied > using direct, forward reasoning; in particular, an absurdity that > can be concluded from the assumption that a statement about > rule-defined concepts is false does not constitute proof that it > is true. Definitions in lower-powered Rules do not overrule > common-sense interpretations or common definitions of terms in > higher-powered rules, but may constructively make reasonable > clarifications to those definitions. For this purpose, a > clarification is reasonable if and only if it adds detail without > changing the underlying general meaning of the term and without > causing the higher powered rule to be read in a way inconsistent > with its text. > > Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule change that would > (1) prevent a person from initiating a formal process to resolve > matters of controversy, in the reasonable expectation that the > controversy will thereby be resolved; or (2) prevent a person from > causing formal reconsideration of any judicial determination that > e should be punished, is wholly void and without effect. > > -Aris either way, i wonder if it's worth an interim fix while g continues to lead the auction overhaul effort.
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:09 PM grok via agora-discussion wrote: > I think what I'm actually suggesting is that there's enough precedent that > a sympathetic judge may stay eir judgment or issue a clarifying judgment in > favor of common practice to give players enough time to patch up the rule. The text of the rules has to take precedence, according to Rule 217. If there's ambiguity it can be resolved in favor of game custom and the game's best interests, but this appears to me to unambiguously cause a failure. Rule 217/12 (Power=3) Interpreting the Rules When interpreting and applying the rules, the text of the rules takes precedence. Where the text is silent, inconsistent, or unclear, it is to be augmented by game custom, common sense, past judgements, and consideration of the best interests of the game. Definitions and prescriptions in the rules are only to be applied using direct, forward reasoning; in particular, an absurdity that can be concluded from the assumption that a statement about rule-defined concepts is false does not constitute proof that it is true. Definitions in lower-powered Rules do not overrule common-sense interpretations or common definitions of terms in higher-powered rules, but may constructively make reasonable clarifications to those definitions. For this purpose, a clarification is reasonable if and only if it adds detail without changing the underlying general meaning of the term and without causing the higher powered rule to be read in a way inconsistent with its text. Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, any rule change that would (1) prevent a person from initiating a formal process to resolve matters of controversy, in the reasonable expectation that the controversy will thereby be resolved; or (2) prevent a person from causing formal reconsideration of any judicial determination that e should be punished, is wholly void and without effect. -Aris
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Friday, May 22, 2020 4:07:19 PM CDT you wrote: > > wait > why don't we just propose a new rule/amend the old one with a paragraph > which says something like either "a countdown which would terminate > something can't be started retroactively" or "the countdown for auction > termination can't be started retroactively"? or would that be no fun? > > - bögtil It's not being started retroactively. There's not an instantiated countdown, there's a continuous check that looks backwards. But yea, the solution would be something like "An election ends 7 days after its initiation, or, if it has been at least 96 hours since its initiation, an election ends when there have been no bids in the last 96 hours." That said, G is working on a complete rewrite for other reasons. -- nch
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Fri, May 22, 2020, 3:59 PM nch via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Friday, May 22, 2020 3:35:45 PM CDT Aris Merchant via agora-discussion > wrote: > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM grok via agora-discussion > > > > wrote: > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020, 2:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > > > > > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > On 5/22/2020 12:09 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > >> Rule 2551: > > > > >> An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately > if > > > > >> no > > > > >> bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or > > > > >> immediately if it is terminated. > > > > >> > > > > >> Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in > R2550), > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > >> on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been > placed > > > > >> or > > > > >> withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... > > > > > > > > > > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. > > > > > > > > lol I kept re-reading that phrase this morning thinking "surely I'm > > > > missing something, something that glaring would have been noticed > long > > > > ago > > > > given how many cfjs auctions have produced..." > > > > > > I think it depends on your interpretation of when hour 1 of the "last > 96 > > > hours" is. I think it would be reasonable for a CFJ to conclude either > way > > > on this. > > > > I'm not seeing a textual interpretation where it doesn't time out > > immediately. Could you explain? > > > > Though maybe some judge found something last time, I really would have > > sworn this has come up before. > > > > -Aris > > I think grok is suggesting that "last" might not go before the initiation. > But, unfortunately in this case, that wouldn't hold up to convention in > Agora. > Quite a few rules get passed with provisions like "If this hasn't happened > in > the last X days..." fully intending to be immediately triggerable. > > > -- > nch > I think what I'm actually suggesting is that there's enough precedent that a sympathetic judge may stay eir judgment or issue a clarifying judgment in favor of common practice to give players enough time to patch up the rule. >
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
Den fre 22 maj 2020 kl 22:59 skrev nch via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org>: > On Friday, May 22, 2020 3:35:45 PM CDT Aris Merchant via agora-discussion > wrote: > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM grok via agora-discussion > > > > wrote: > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020, 2:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > > > > > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > On 5/22/2020 12:09 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > >> Rule 2551: > > > > >> An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately > if > > > > >> no > > > > >> bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or > > > > >> immediately if it is terminated. > > > > >> > > > > >> Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in > R2550), > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > >> on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been > placed > > > > >> or > > > > >> withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... > > > > > > > > > > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. > > > > > > > > lol I kept re-reading that phrase this morning thinking "surely I'm > > > > missing something, something that glaring would have been noticed > long > > > > ago > > > > given how many cfjs auctions have produced..." > > > > > > I think it depends on your interpretation of when hour 1 of the "last > 96 > > > hours" is. I think it would be reasonable for a CFJ to conclude either > way > > > on this. > > > > I'm not seeing a textual interpretation where it doesn't time out > > immediately. Could you explain? > > > > Though maybe some judge found something last time, I really would have > > sworn this has come up before. > > > > -Aris > > I think grok is suggesting that "last" might not go before the initiation. > But, unfortunately in this case, that wouldn't hold up to convention in > Agora. > Quite a few rules get passed with provisions like "If this hasn't happened > in > the last X days..." fully intending to be immediately triggerable. > > > -- > nch > > wait why don't we just propose a new rule/amend the old one with a paragraph which says something like either "a countdown which would terminate something can't be started retroactively" or "the countdown for auction termination can't be started retroactively"? or would that be no fun? - bögtil
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Friday, May 22, 2020 3:35:45 PM CDT Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM grok via agora-discussion > > wrote: > > On Fri, May 22, 2020, 2:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > > > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > On 5/22/2020 12:09 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > >> Rule 2551: > > > >> An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately if > > > >> no > > > >> bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or > > > >> immediately if it is terminated. > > > >> > > > >> Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in R2550), > > > > > > then > > > > > > >> on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been placed > > > >> or > > > >> withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... > > > > > > > > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. > > > > > > lol I kept re-reading that phrase this morning thinking "surely I'm > > > missing something, something that glaring would have been noticed long > > > ago > > > given how many cfjs auctions have produced..." > > > > I think it depends on your interpretation of when hour 1 of the "last 96 > > hours" is. I think it would be reasonable for a CFJ to conclude either way > > on this. > > I'm not seeing a textual interpretation where it doesn't time out > immediately. Could you explain? > > Though maybe some judge found something last time, I really would have > sworn this has come up before. > > -Aris I think grok is suggesting that "last" might not go before the initiation. But, unfortunately in this case, that wouldn't hold up to convention in Agora. Quite a few rules get passed with provisions like "If this hasn't happened in the last X days..." fully intending to be immediately triggerable. -- nch
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 1:19 PM grok via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Fri, May 22, 2020, 2:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > > On 5/22/2020 12:09 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> Rule 2551: > > >> An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately if no > > >> bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or > > >> immediately if it is terminated. > > >> > > >> Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in R2550), > > then > > >> on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been placed or > > >> withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... > > >> > > > > > > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. > > > > > > > lol I kept re-reading that phrase this morning thinking "surely I'm > > missing something, something that glaring would have been noticed long ago > > given how many cfjs auctions have produced..." > > > > I think it depends on your interpretation of when hour 1 of the "last 96 > hours" is. I think it would be reasonable for a CFJ to conclude either way > on this. I'm not seeing a textual interpretation where it doesn't time out immediately. Could you explain? Though maybe some judge found something last time, I really would have sworn this has come up before. -Aris
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Fri, May 22, 2020, 2:16 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > On 5/22/2020 12:09 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > >> > >> Rule 2551: > >> An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately if no > >> bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or > >> immediately if it is terminated. > >> > >> Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in R2550), > then > >> on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been placed or > >> withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... > >> > > > > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. > > > > lol I kept re-reading that phrase this morning thinking "surely I'm > missing something, something that glaring would have been noticed long ago > given how many cfjs auctions have produced..." > I think it depends on your interpretation of when hour 1 of the "last 96 hours" is. I think it would be reasonable for a CFJ to conclude either way on this. >
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On 5/22/2020 12:09 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > >> >> Rule 2551: >> An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately if no >> bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or >> immediately if it is terminated. >> >> Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in R2550), then >> on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been placed or >> withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... >> > > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. > lol I kept re-reading that phrase this morning thinking "surely I'm missing something, something that glaring would have been noticed long ago given how many cfjs auctions have produced..."
Re: DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > Rule 2551: > An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately if no > bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or > immediately if it is terminated. > > Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in R2550), then > on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been placed or > withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE... > This has been noticed before... apparently not fixed though. -Aris > >
DIS: Do all auctions end immediately?
Rule 2551: An Auction ends 7 days after its initiation, or immediately if no bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours, or immediately if it is terminated. Since no bid can be made until the auction starts (that's in R2550), then on the instant after it starts, the condition "no bid has been placed or withdrawn in the last 96 hours" would be TRUE...
