Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Sun, 2 Jul 2017, Alex Smith wrote:


Create a new rule, "Assisted Actions", at power 2, with the following
text:
{{{
If a rule states that a person can perform an action as an "assisted
action", that means that that person can perform that action:

1. By announcement, if that person has not performed an assisted
   action in the previous 28 days;
2. With 1 Support, if that person has not performed an assisted
   action in the previous 7 days;
3. With 3 Support, otherwise.


I think there may be annoying timing issues. Say:

"I intend to A with 1 Support"
"I intend to B with 3 Support"
(Gets 3 support for B)
"I do B"
(Gets 1 support for A)
"I do A"


A proposal's "rank" is equal to the number of other proposals in the
Proposal Pool which own at least as many shinies as it does. A proposal
in the Proposal Pool is "economically pending" if its Shiny balance is
greater than or equal to the square of its rank.


This has "interesting" effects. Say you have

Proposal A, 1 shiny
Proposal B, 1 shiny
Proposal C, no shinies
(A and B are econ. pending)
(1 shiny is transfered to proposal C)
(Now none of them are pending)


A proposal is pending if it is socially pending, economically pending,
or both.


What about "capitally pending" *snickers evilly*

Greetings,
Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Quazie]

What if AP was for the pending of proposals you didn't author, and CFJing?
On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 13:18 Nicholas Evans  wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 15:06 -0500, Nicholas Evans wrote:
>> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Alex Smith 
>> > wrote:
>> > > I know, but you never make a /profit/ by spending Shinies. So
>> > > failing to make a loss is the best you can manage.
>> >
>> > That's not true. Since FV changes weekly, and it takes a week for a
>> > proposal to pass, you just need to pend a week before an FV increase.
>> > Pending itself will (marginally) increase FV. Buying a stamp would do
>> > so even more. The more people pending and buying things W1, the more
>> > the proposal will payout W2.
>>
>> Doesn't FV decrease over time, though (as more Shinies accumulate in
>> the hands of people who won't use them)? Timing a pend for just before
>> an FV increase seems almost impossible.
>>
>>
> ​FV decreasing means stamps get cheaper though. Week-over-week hoarding
> and FV decrease should lead to a wave of stamp purchases. That wave should
> lead to a sudden spike in FV, which continues the cycle.
>
> That's the theory of course. If you're right and it stagnates in the
> mid-term, we can try to patch it then.​
>
>
>
>> I guess it's possible you'd get into a pattern where people alternated
>> between having a week where everyone pends, and a week where nobody
>> pends, in an attempt to make a profit. But that sort of extreme FV
>> manipulation seems unlikely to be something that people would bother to
>> do in practice, and even then it'd be unlikely to counteract the
>> general downwards trend of the FV longterm (in fact, it would
>> accelerate it).
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Nicholas Evans]

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 15:06 -0500, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Alex Smith 
> > wrote:
> > > I know, but you never make a /profit/ by spending Shinies. So
> > > failing to make a loss is the best you can manage.
> >
> > That's not true. Since FV changes weekly, and it takes a week for a
> > proposal to pass, you just need to pend a week before an FV increase.
> > Pending itself will (marginally) increase FV. Buying a stamp would do
> > so even more. The more people pending and buying things W1, the more
> > the proposal will payout W2.
>
> Doesn't FV decrease over time, though (as more Shinies accumulate in
> the hands of people who won't use them)? Timing a pend for just before
> an FV increase seems almost impossible.
>
>
​FV decreasing means stamps get cheaper though. Week-over-week hoarding and
FV decrease should lead to a wave of stamp purchases. That wave should lead
to a sudden spike in FV, which continues the cycle.

That's the theory of course. If you're right and it stagnates in the
mid-term, we can try to patch it then.​



> I guess it's possible you'd get into a pattern where people alternated
> between having a week where everyone pends, and a week where nobody
> pends, in an attempt to make a profit. But that sort of extreme FV
> manipulation seems unlikely to be something that people would bother to
> do in practice, and even then it'd be unlikely to counteract the
> general downwards trend of the FV longterm (in fact, it would
> accelerate it).
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Alex Smith]

On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 15:06 -0500, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
> > I know, but you never make a /profit/ by spending Shinies. So
> > failing to make a loss is the best you can manage.
> 
> That's not true. Since FV changes weekly, and it takes a week for a
> proposal to pass, you just need to pend a week before an FV increase.
> Pending itself will (marginally) increase FV. Buying a stamp would do
> so even more. The more people pending and buying things W1, the more
> the proposal will payout W2.

Doesn't FV decrease over time, though (as more Shinies accumulate in
the hands of people who won't use them)? Timing a pend for just before
an FV increase seems almost impossible.

I guess it's possible you'd get into a pattern where people alternated
between having a week where everyone pends, and a week where nobody
pends, in an attempt to make a profit. But that sort of extreme FV
manipulation seems unlikely to be something that people would bother to
do in practice, and even then it'd be unlikely to counteract the
general downwards trend of the FV longterm (in fact, it would
accelerate it).

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Nicholas Evans]

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 14:48 -0500, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Alex Smith 
> > wrote:
> > > I think the AP stuff was economically problematic as given as there'd
> > > very rarely be a need to spend shinies. How often does a typical player
> > > do three proposals/CFJs in a week? The answer is "not often", and all
> > > those players would just hoard Shinies as they have no reason to spend
> > > them.
> > Note that AP-actions don't pay out. You can hoard your shinies and use AP
> > instead, but you'd make more shinies if you effectively used them for
> > proposals. Honestly I would do an AP of 1 if I thought it wouldn't be
> > opposed, but people have already asked for 5.
>
> I know, but you never make a /profit/ by spending Shinies. So failing
> to make a loss is the best you can manage.
>
>
​That's not true. Since FV changes weekly, and it takes a week for a
proposal to pass, you just need to pend a week before an FV increase.
Pending itself will (marginally) increase FV. Buying a stamp would do so
even more. The more people pending and buying things W1, the more the
proposal will payout W2.​



> I know I'd never have any reasons to spend Shinies under the AP system
> you suggested, meaning I'd likely just hoard them forever. The people
> asking for 5 are basically looking for a way to bypass the economy
> entirely; I don't think I've seen 5 of this sort of action done in a
> week except as a consequence of a scam or as excessively spammy CFJs.
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Alex Smith]

On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 14:48 -0500, Nicholas Evans wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
> > I think the AP stuff was economically problematic as given as there'd
> > very rarely be a need to spend shinies. How often does a typical player
> > do three proposals/CFJs in a week? The answer is "not often", and all
> > those players would just hoard Shinies as they have no reason to spend
> > them.
> Note that AP-actions don't pay out. You can hoard your shinies and use AP
> instead, but you'd make more shinies if you effectively used them for
> proposals. Honestly I would do an AP of 1 if I thought it wouldn't be
> opposed, but people have already asked for 5.

I know, but you never make a /profit/ by spending Shinies. So failing
to make a loss is the best you can manage.

I know I'd never have any reasons to spend Shinies under the AP system
you suggested, meaning I'd likely just hoard them forever. The people
asking for 5 are basically looking for a way to bypass the economy
entirely; I don't think I've seen 5 of this sort of action done in a
week except as a consequence of a scam or as excessively spammy CFJs.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Nicholas Evans]

I'll have more detailed thoughts later, but overall I'm concerned about
Support slowing things down and creating more uncertainty (players having
to check if something has received enough Support). In my version, I tried
to make the decisions as self-contained as possible so we're not waiting
for responses and double-checking conditions being met.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:

> I think the AP stuff was economically problematic as given as there'd
> very rarely be a need to spend shinies. How often does a typical player
> do three proposals/CFJs in a week? The answer is "not often", and all
> those players would just hoard Shinies as they have no reason to spend
> them.
>
>
​Note that AP-actions don't pay out. You can hoard your shinies and use AP
instead, but you'd make more shinies if you effectively used them for
proposals. Honestly I would do an AP of 1 if I thought it wouldn't be
opposed, but people have already asked for 5.​

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Alex Smith]

On Sun, 2017-07-02 at 21:27 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> "A player SHOULD perform an action as an assisted action only if that
> player is new to Agora (and thus has not yet had much of a chance to
> earn shinies), or if that action has only trivial consequences, or if
> that action is intended to be beneficial to Agora as a whole."
> 
> I'm wary of codified ethics.
> 
> I fear this can spring all kinds of drama (what is "new"? what is
> "trivial"? Is this trivial enough? How about that? But HE said that
> THIS was trivial, then MY thing should be trivial, right? right?,
> etc). I'd much prefer a more formal restriction. For example, "new"
> is defined as being less than X days old.

It's a SHOULD, not a SHALL (and included mostly to give people
guideline on when to support). You can violate it so long as you have a
reason. (Doesn't even have to be a good reason, really; "I know I'm
only supposed to do this if I'm new but I really want to" is enough of
a reason to violate the SHOULD. It's just that you perhaps shouldn't
expect people to support you if you do this.)

> If you can make the neologisms like "socially pended" and the
> mechanics themselves be more intuitive, all the better. It's not very
> gameplay ergonomic right now. (the AP stuff an all was so smooth and
> simple to grasp, because its was so similar to videogames. All of
> this support stuff and the times stuff and all gets obscure and a
> chore to interpret and it seems hard to use because of the times and
> the need to summon help plus needing to have it conform to that
> codified ethics. Too many things to check and arrange. Not as
> elegant).

I think the AP stuff was economically problematic as given as there'd
very rarely be a need to spend shinies. How often does a typical player
do three proposals/CFJs in a week? The answer is "not often", and all
those players would just hoard Shinies as they have no reason to spend
them.

Worth noting: I didn't put Stamps in this proposal as I consider those
to be something separate.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Cuddle Beam]

"A player SHOULD perform an action as an assisted action only if that

player is new to Agora (and thus has not yet had much of a chance to
earn shinies), or if that action has only trivial consequences, or if
that action is intended to be beneficial to Agora as a whole."


I'm wary of codified ethics.


I fear this can spring all kinds of drama (what is "new"? what is
"trivial"? Is this trivial enough? How about that? But HE said that
THIS was trivial, then MY thing should be trivial, right? right?,
etc). I'd much prefer a more formal restriction. For example, "new" is
defined as being less than X days old.


If you can make the neologisms like "socially pended" and the
mechanics themselves be more intuitive, all the better. It's not very
gameplay ergonomic right now. (the AP stuff an all was so smooth and
simple to grasp, because its was so similar to videogames. All of this
support stuff and the times stuff and all gets obscure and a chore to
interpret and it seems hard to use because of the times and the need
to summon help plus needing to have it conform to that codified
ethics. Too many things to check and arrange. Not as elegant).


Other than that, it looks alright.


On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-06-30 at 22:32 +0100, Alex Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 2017-06-29 at 20:42 -0500, Nic Evans wrote:
> > > [economic overhaul]
> >
> > I like the ideas of this and think it would be an improvement, but I've
> > also been working on my own overhaul proposal (aiming for similar
> > goals) which would conflict with this a bit. Do you think it would be
> > worth trying to come up with a combined proposal? (If so, I could pay
> > to pend it.)
>
> OK, here's my attempt at a combined proposal. I'm not 100% sure what
> the current state of the rules are, so I decided to just overwrite all
> the relevant rules rather than try to co-operate with parallel
> proposals.
>
> Not submitting yet because people are likely to want to give feedback
> on this.
>
> The basic ideas are as follows: proposals and CFJs can each be
> submitted via two means, as an "assisted action" (similar to nichdel's
> AP mechanism), or via payment of Shinies (with CFJs, this scales with
> the number of recent CFJs by the same author to make it easier for em
> to track; with Proposals, this scales with the number of other
> proposals in the pool at the time). Instead of having a set number of
> assisted actions per week, they require Support (unless the player
> hardly ever performs assisted actions), or 3 Support if the same player
> tries to perform more than one in a week; thus, if there's a great need
> for a player to perform an action as a public service, it can be done,
> but most attempts to perform actions (especially ones that are selfish
> or don't have wide public agreement) require Shiny expenditure. (Just
> like in nichdel's proposal, spending Shinies means that a portion of
> those Shinies can go as a reward; in this case, it's half of them, with
> Agora getting the other half, to help improve liquidity.)
>
> 
>
> Amend the rule "Economics" to read as follows:
> {{{
> Shinies (sg. shiny) are an indestructible liquid currency, and the
> official currency of Agora. They may be owned by Agora, any person,
> any organization, any CFJ, and any proposal. The Secretary is in most
> cases the recordkeepor for Shinies. However, the Promotor is the
> recordkeepor for Shinies owned by proposals, and the Arbitor is the
> recordkeepor for Shinies owned by CFJs.
>
> The Secretary CAN cause Agora to pay any player or organization by
> announcement if doing so is specified by a rule.
>
> If at any time a CFJ has had a judgement assigned continuously for at
> least 7 days, and that CFJ owns at least one Shiny, any player CAN
> transfer all Shinies owned by that CFJ to its judge by announcement.
>
> If a proposal has taken effect, any player CAN transfer all Shinies
> owned by that proposal to its author by announcement.
>
> If a proposal is not in the Proposal Pool, and there is no unresolved
> Agoran Decision on whether to adopt that proposal, any player CAN
> transfer all Shinies owned by that proposal to Agora by announcement.
> }}}
>
> Create a new rule, "Assisted Actions", at power 2, with the following
> text:
> {{{
> If a rule states that a person can perform an action as an "assisted
> action", that means that that person can perform that action:
>
>  1. By announcement, if that person has not performed an assisted
> action in the previous 28 days;
>  2. With 1 Support, if that person has not performed an assisted
> action in the previous 7 days;
>  3. With 3 Support, otherwise.
>
> A player SHOULD perform an action as an assisted action only if that
> player is new to Agora (and thus has not yet had much of a chance to
> earn shinies), or if that action has only trivial consequences, or if
> that action is intended to be beneficial to Agora as a whole.
> }}}
>
> Amend 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2017-06-30 at 22:32 +0100, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 2017-06-29 at 20:42 -0500, Nic Evans wrote:
> > [economic overhaul]
> 
> I like the ideas of this and think it would be an improvement, but I've
> also been working on my own overhaul proposal (aiming for similar
> goals) which would conflict with this a bit. Do you think it would be
> worth trying to come up with a combined proposal? (If so, I could pay
> to pend it.)

OK, here's my attempt at a combined proposal. I'm not 100% sure what
the current state of the rules are, so I decided to just overwrite all
the relevant rules rather than try to co-operate with parallel
proposals.

Not submitting yet because people are likely to want to give feedback
on this.

The basic ideas are as follows: proposals and CFJs can each be
submitted via two means, as an "assisted action" (similar to nichdel's
AP mechanism), or via payment of Shinies (with CFJs, this scales with
the number of recent CFJs by the same author to make it easier for em
to track; with Proposals, this scales with the number of other
proposals in the pool at the time). Instead of having a set number of
assisted actions per week, they require Support (unless the player
hardly ever performs assisted actions), or 3 Support if the same player
tries to perform more than one in a week; thus, if there's a great need
for a player to perform an action as a public service, it can be done,
but most attempts to perform actions (especially ones that are selfish
or don't have wide public agreement) require Shiny expenditure. (Just
like in nichdel's proposal, spending Shinies means that a portion of
those Shinies can go as a reward; in this case, it's half of them, with
Agora getting the other half, to help improve liquidity.)



Amend the rule "Economics" to read as follows:
{{{
Shinies (sg. shiny) are an indestructible liquid currency, and the
official currency of Agora. They may be owned by Agora, any person,
any organization, any CFJ, and any proposal. The Secretary is in most
cases the recordkeepor for Shinies. However, the Promotor is the
recordkeepor for Shinies owned by proposals, and the Arbitor is the
recordkeepor for Shinies owned by CFJs.

The Secretary CAN cause Agora to pay any player or organization by
announcement if doing so is specified by a rule.

If at any time a CFJ has had a judgement assigned continuously for at
least 7 days, and that CFJ owns at least one Shiny, any player CAN
transfer all Shinies owned by that CFJ to its judge by announcement.

If a proposal has taken effect, any player CAN transfer all Shinies
owned by that proposal to its author by announcement.

If a proposal is not in the Proposal Pool, and there is no unresolved
Agoran Decision on whether to adopt that proposal, any player CAN
transfer all Shinies owned by that proposal to Agora by announcement.
}}}

Create a new rule, "Assisted Actions", at power 2, with the following
text:
{{{
If a rule states that a person can perform an action as an "assisted
action", that means that that person can perform that action:

 1. By announcement, if that person has not performed an assisted
action in the previous 28 days;
 2. With 1 Support, if that person has not performed an assisted
action in the previous 7 days;
 3. With 3 Support, otherwise.

A player SHOULD perform an action as an assisted action only if that
player is new to Agora (and thus has not yet had much of a chance to
earn shinies), or if that action has only trivial consequences, or if
that action is intended to be beneficial to Agora as a whole.
}}}

Amend rule 2445 to read as follows:
{{{
A player CAN pay any number of shinies e owns to a proposal in the
Proposal Pool by announcement. As an exception, a person CANNOT
transfer shinies to a proposal e authored via any mechanism. Persons
also CANNOT transfer shinies to a proposal via any mechanism unless it
is in the Proposal Pool.

A proposal's "rank" is equal to the number of other proposals in the
Proposal Pool which own at least as many shinies as it does. A proposal
in the Proposal Pool is "economically pending" if its Shiny balance is
greater than or equal to the square of its rank.

When a proposal is distributed, half the Shinies it owns, rounded down,
are transferred to Agora.

Additionally, a player CAN pend a proposal in the Proposal Pool as an
assisted action. Proposals in the Proposal Pool are known as "socially
pending" if they were pended via this mechanism since they were added
to the proposal pool.

A proposal is pending if it is socially pending, economically pending,
or both.
}}}

In rule 991, replace all text before "At any time, " with the
following:
{{{
Any person (the initiator) CAN initiate a Call for Judgement
CFJ, syn. "judicial case", "inquiry case") as an assisted action. A
person CAN also initiate a CFJ via paying N shinies to Agora, where N
is 10 times the number of CFJs e has initiated in the previous 7 days,
plus 5. When this second mechanism is used, Agora 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Josh T]

I just wanted to mention that I have an alternate stamp proposal which I
haven't quite had the time to flesh out, but it should be reasonably easy
to change to if I write things carefully.

天火狐

On 30 June 2017 at 09:45, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >
> > Oops, I forgot to change everyone's balance.
> >
> > Also if there's no substantial problems noticed, I'd really appreciate
> > having this pended before the next proposal pool (I don't have any
> > shinies).
> >
> > I withdraw Economics Overhaul.
> >
> > I submit the following proposal:
> >
> > -
> >
> > Title: Economics Overhaul v2
> > AI: 2.0
> > Author: nichdel
> > Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
> >
> > Repeal R2484 "Payday".
> >
> > Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> > "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
> >
> >   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
> >   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
> >   number.
> >
> > And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> > adding:
> >
> >   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
> >   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
> >   inaccurate balances.
> >
> > {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> > reports}
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
> >
> >   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
> >   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
> >   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
> >   Reward Condition.
> >
> >   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
> >   of shinies to the player.
> >
> >   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
> >
> >  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
> >  spending shinies:
> >
> > - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> > Floating Value.
> >
> > - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> > Floating Value.
> >
> >  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
> >  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
> >
> >  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
> >
> >  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
> >  shinies.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
> >
> >   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
> >   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
> >   balance.
> >
> > Set every players's shiny balance to 0.
> >
> > Set Agora's shiny balance to 1000.
> >
> > Set the Floating Value to 200.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
> >
> >   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
> >   Secretary.
> >
> >   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
> >
> >   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
> >   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
> >
> >   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
> >   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
> >
> >   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
> >   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
> >   the game.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
> >
> >   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
> >   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
> >
> >   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
> >   to em.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
> >
> >   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
> >   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
> >   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
> >   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
> >
> > Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
> >
> >   Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
> >   proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
> >   "not pending" (default).
> >
> >   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
> >   announcement by:
> >
> >  a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
> >
> >  b) spending 1/20th the Floating Value in shinies.
> >
> > Amend R991 "Calls for Judgment" by replacing the first paragaraph 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[CuddleBeam]

>If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.


I agree with that that would be a good change, but given that there
would be rewards for making/pending/etc adopted proposals, I'd prefer
to keep this good idea for later to reap shinies with it.


Seems like a reasonable strategy. Leave bad things inside, propose
fixes which will very likely get adopted, reap rewards (I kinda
pointed this phenomenon already a while ago, about how rewarding
proposal stuff will give traction to farming proposals, but oh well.
I'm enthusiastic to see to see how the metagame changes with these new
mechanics).

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[CuddleBeam]

>I'd really appreciate having this pended before the next proposal pool

>(I don't have any shinies).


Pending price was 6 shinies, yeah?.Or something.

I pay the amount necessary to get this pended. (I should have 14 shinies).

Give me the money back or something lol if the proposal fails lol, Nic, but
it looks good. I'd FOR.

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 30, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> Oops, I forgot to change everyone's balance.
> 
> Also if there's no substantial problems noticed, I'd really appreciate
> having this pended before the next proposal pool (I don't have any
> shinies).
> 
> I withdraw Economics Overhaul.
> 
> I submit the following proposal:
> 
> -
> 
> Title: Economics Overhaul v2
> AI: 2.0
> Author: nichdel
> Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
> 
> Repeal R2484 "Payday".
> 
> Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
> 
>   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
>   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
>   number.
> 
> And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> adding:
> 
>   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
>   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
>   inaccurate balances.
> 
> {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> reports}
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
> 
>   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
>   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
>   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
>   Reward Condition.
> 
>   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
>   of shinies to the player.
> 
>   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
> 
>  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
>  spending shinies:
> 
> - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> Floating Value.
> 
> - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> Floating Value.
> 
>  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
>  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
> 
>  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
> 
>  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
>  shinies.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
> 
>   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
>   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
>   balance.
> 
> Set every players's shiny balance to 0.
> 
> Set Agora's shiny balance to 1000.
> 
> Set the Floating Value to 200.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
> 
>   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
>   Secretary.
> 
>   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
> 
>   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
>   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
> 
>   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
>   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
> 
>   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
>   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
>   the game.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
> 
>   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
>   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
> 
>   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
>   to em.
> 
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
> 
>   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
>   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
>   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
>   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
> 
> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
> 
>   Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>   proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
>   "not pending" (default).
> 
>   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
>   announcement by:
> 
>  a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
> 
>  b) spending 1/20th the Floating Value in shinies.
> 
> Amend R991 "Calls for Judgment" by replacing the first paragaraph with
> the following:
> 
>   Any person (the initiator) can initiate a Call for Judgement (CFJ,
>   syn. Judicial Case), specifying a statement to be inquired into:
> 
>  a) by announcement, and spending 1 Action Point, OR
> 
>  b) by announcement, and spending 1/20th the Floating Value in
>  shinies, OR
> 
>  c) by announcement if e is not a player.
> 
>   When a person initiates a Call for Judgment, e may optionally bar one
>   person from the case.
> 
> 



signature.asc
Description: Message signed 

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Aris Merchant]

Do you want this proposal in this week's report (due any day now), or would
you like to save it for next week's?

-Aris

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 6:39 PM Nic Evans  wrote:

> Features:
>
>- CFJs and Proposals can be made by spending shinies OR by using AP.
>AP works like SP, each player getting 2 non-accruing AP a week.
>Actions taken using AP can't award shinies, so there's reasons to not
>use your AP.
>
>- Shinies can be used to buy Stamps. Possessing Stamps made by 10
>different players allows you to win.
>
>- Players claim shinies for meeting conditions, rather than being
>given them by Secretary. This stops inactive players from accruing
>them and eases the Secretary's load.
>
>- Costs and Payouts for several things are based on Floating Value.
>FV changes weekly and is based on Agora's balance. This allows both
>price speculation and manipulation, but indirectly and distributed
>enough to not be completely controllable.
>
>- Welcome Packages, which right now just get players started in the
>economy but could eventually be used to give other assets as well.
>
>
> I submit the following proposal:
>
> -
>
> Title: Economics Overhaul
> AI: 2.0
> Author: nichdel
> Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
>
> Repeal R2484 "Payday".
>
> Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
>
>When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
>number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
>number.
>
> And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> adding:
>
>When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
>to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
>inaccurate balances.
>
> {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> reports}
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
>
>A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
>Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
>claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
>Reward Condition.
>
>When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
>of shinies to the player.
>
>Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
>
>   * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
>   spending shinies:
>
>  - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
>  Floating Value.
>
>  - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
>  Floating Value.
>
>   * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
>   assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
>
>   * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
>
>   * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
>   shinies.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
>
>Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
>Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
>balance.
>
> Set the Floating Value to 200.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
>
>Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
>Secretary.
>
>The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
>
>Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
>Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
>
>Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
>transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
>
>While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
>destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
>the game.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
>
>If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
>registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
>
>When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
>to em.
>
> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
>
>At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
>Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
>Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
>more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
>
> Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
>
>Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
>proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
>"not pending" (default).
>
>Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
>announcement by:
>
>   a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
>
>  

DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

What about have an AP level that can be changed by announcement.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 6:56 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> I anticipate the low AP level to be an objection here. Instead of
> deciding on one myself, I figured it'd be easier for anyone who objects
> to just introduce a proposal to change it immediately after adoption.
> 
> 
> On 06/29/17 20:42, Nic Evans wrote:
>> Features:
>> 
>>   - CFJs and Proposals can be made by spending shinies OR by using AP.
>>   AP works like SP, each player getting 2 non-accruing AP a week.
>>   Actions taken using AP can't award shinies, so there's reasons to not
>>   use your AP.
>> 
>>   - Shinies can be used to buy Stamps. Possessing Stamps made by 10
>>   different players allows you to win.
>> 
>>   - Players claim shinies for meeting conditions, rather than being
>>   given them by Secretary. This stops inactive players from accruing
>>   them and eases the Secretary's load.
>> 
>>   - Costs and Payouts for several things are based on Floating Value.
>>   FV changes weekly and is based on Agora's balance. This allows both
>>   price speculation and manipulation, but indirectly and distributed
>>   enough to not be completely controllable.
>> 
>>   - Welcome Packages, which right now just get players started in the
>>   economy but could eventually be used to give other assets as well.
>> 
>> 
>> I submit the following proposal:
>> 
>> -
>> 
>> Title: Economics Overhaul
>> AI: 2.0
>> Author: nichdel
>> Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
>> 
>> Repeal R2484 "Payday".
>> 
>> Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
>> "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
>> 
>>   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
>>   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
>>   number.
>> 
>> And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
>> adding:
>> 
>>   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
>>   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
>>   inaccurate balances.
>> 
>> {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
>> reports}
>> 
>> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
>> 
>>   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
>>   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
>>   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
>>   Reward Condition.
>> 
>>   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
>>   of shinies to the player.
>> 
>>   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
>> 
>>  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
>>  spending shinies:
>> 
>> - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
>> Floating Value.
>> 
>> - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
>> Floating Value.
>> 
>>  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
>>  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
>> 
>>  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
>> 
>>  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
>>  shinies.
>> 
>> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
>> 
>>   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
>>   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
>>   balance.
>> 
>> Set the Floating Value to 200.
>> 
>> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
>> 
>>   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
>>   Secretary.
>> 
>>   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
>> 
>>   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
>>   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
>> 
>>   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
>>   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
>> 
>>   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
>>   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
>>   the game.
>> 
>> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
>> 
>>   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
>>   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
>> 
>>   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
>>   to em.
>> 
>> Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
>> 
>>   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
>>   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
>>   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
>>   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.