DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
MLE Slone via agora-business [2024-04-10 12:07]: > On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 4:15 PM juan via agora-official > wrote: > [snip] > > Maud > > (v) Maud (1999-04-20--2006-12-13) > > (v) Maud (2007-03-07--2007-05-14) > [snip] > > -- > > juan > > Registrar, Absurdor > > This information is not quite correct. When I registered in 1999, I > used the name harvel, and Gmail did not yet exist. So I believe that > first registration period should instead read > >(v) harvel <> (1999-04-20--2006-12-13) > > The name and email address are accurate for my 2006 deregistration, however. Thank you! I have already corrected it. -- juan Registrar
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
4st wrote: Operating solely off the registrar's report, then, there could probably be some notations to players that are c/o or otherwise proxies: so the registrar could have some corrections on their report that have gone unnoticed for quite some time, and I have taken those to be fact due to that. In fact, I think past Registrar's reports did list some partnerships as "c/o ", typically whoever was doing the bulk of the partnership's bookkeeping. Though I think at least one first-class player was listed as "c/o ", as they were sharing an e-mail account, and good faith was assumed that the former would clearly identify which messages from that account were eirs. Anyhow, I'm not going to be discouraged, and I'm going to try to take it as early helpful feedback to the thesis I'm working on. WALRUS was not a person, rather a partnership, and human point whatever were similar proxy players during a time of player shenanigans, and it's probably important to note that these are probably not persons, but we simply have no idea. I've updated the lists I have to accommodate. The reason for merging records is that I want to be conservative sometimes with reasons for not playing: I am trying to give Agora the benefit of the doubt in reducing the amount of players that stop playing for good. I think I'll report separate statistics for merged records and unmerged then though, for your benefit. I do think that an analysis along the lines of "these nicknames refer to the same person" and "these were partnerships" would be interesting. And "these partnerships' members included these other persons" as well, though that would get more complicated (as many of them had members come and go). And I'll keep a separate track of all the "c/o" players, and I don't really know what to do with weird records like Ted and duck, since what are those about??? Absent a preponderance of evidence to the contrary, I would just assume that they're first-class players distinct from any other first-class players. (If/when such evidence is presented after the fact, we would presumably fix any major breakages by adopting a legal fiction that the actions in question were taken by a separate person, similar to one case that actually came up several years back.)
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
4st nomic via agora-business [2023-11-09 08:59]: > Operating solely off the registrar's report, then, there could probably be > some notations to players that are c/o or otherwise proxies: so the > registrar could have some corrections on their report that have gone > unnoticed for quite some time, and I have taken those to be fact due to > that. > > Anyhow, I'm not going to be discouraged, and I'm going to try to take it as > early helpful feedback to the thesis I'm working on. WALRUS was not a > person, rather a partnership, and human point whatever were similar proxy > players during a time of player shenanigans, and it's probably important to > note that these are probably not persons, but we simply have no idea. > > I've updated the lists I have to accommodate. The reason for merging > records is that I want to be conservative sometimes with reasons for not > playing: I am trying to give Agora the benefit of the doubt in reducing the > amount of players that stop playing for good. I think I'll report separate > statistics for merged records and unmerged then though, for your benefit. > And I'll keep a separate track of all the "c/o" players, and I don't really > know what to do with weird records like Ted and duck, since what are those > about??? You don't need to keep your own records! Really, that's my job. And we don't need to merge those players to achieve that. Maybe we can add more annotations, and I suggest something else to keep the integrity of the records: I'll add a mechanism for changes to be *signed* by the current registrar, and evidence to be pointed to (e.g., message-ids). Actually, I'm already doing that, but only internally. I can make it external as well. So, what I ask of you is suggestions and maybe pointers into how you would implement them! To be honest, my current gameplay of Agora is almost exclusively, if not entirely, doing my job as Registrar (and Absurdor). -- juan
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
On 11/9/23 20:39, 4st nomic via agora-business wrote: > (I'm realizing that tabling an intent to declare apathy is intended to be > funny, not frustrating: you have to wait to feel an emotion? Declaring > apathy is a way to win? How did anyone ever let anyone win this way?) Generally, nobody does let anyone win. Apathy is meant to be an easy scam target for some malicious scams. The only way to win by apathy, usually, is by deregistering other players or locking them out of objecting. If you can do that, you can do some malicious things. So if someone finds such a scam, we'd rather encourage them to give themselves a win and move on, than to do something more malicious. -- nix
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
On 11/8/23 22:22, 4st nomic via agora-business wrote: > if it helps, I think the following groups constitute the same person (not > player): FWIW, some of these are correct. I've been meaning to contact juan privately to note them, so they can be more quietly updated (since some of them may not want attention drawn publicly). Most are wrong, and I think we should use archival evidence when making claims about accuracy. -- nix
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
On 11/9/23 13:29, nix via agora-discussion wrote: > FWIW, your name shows up in the FLR 21 times, and while that varies > between things you wrote, cleanings, and co-authorship, it clearly shows > you're having an impact on the rules. I appreciate your presence, even > if I'm often opposed to your specific ideas; I don't intend it as a > judgment of you. Oh I almost forgot to mention Agorant as well, which you worked hard on and is one of the freshest tournament ideas we've had in a while. -- nix
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
On 11/8/23 23:01, 4st nomic via agora-business wrote: > And I'm a bit sensitive about it because I'm considering deregistering > again myself, and I'm just trying to collect evidence! That I apparently > need to prove I'm right. > > I'm also feeling generally othered by the game, like my ideas are extremely > consistently wrong, and I'm undeserving of any agoran rewards in any > fashion despite my efforts to the contrary. FWIW, your name shows up in the FLR 21 times, and while that varies between things you wrote, cleanings, and co-authorship, it clearly shows you're having an impact on the rules. I appreciate your presence, even if I'm often opposed to your specific ideas; I don't intend it as a judgment of you. Aris already pointed out some reasons that experimental ideas don't pass; another one is that an idea that's "experimental" to one player might be "already done" to another, in part or whole; especially in a game with as long of a history as Agora. For the that reason and the ones Aris mentioned, I personally like experimenting with new ideas in Tournaments, or even in new nomics. In Agora I'm usually looking for something that looks very fleshed out already. There's also something to be said for the current lack of active economy and how that suppresses some experiments; when we have an economy and something like contracts, we often have some experiments happening in the contracts. The fact that they can use assets that are valuable elsewhere encourages buy-in, but being in a contract means they only impact the people interested. The early days of Sets had quite a few interesting ideas in contracts, some with more success than others. > > I'd Cantus cygnus if i didn't have a chance at one! Win, after years of > playing. Is that worth it to anyone? Not that Cantus cygnus actually > matters or are taken seriously, the Archives have shown that they're > somewhat of a joke or just for angrying about tech problems. This is a weird quirk of CCs. Some are silly, but some of them are quite serious. A few of them have led to major reforms to address the concerns they bring up. -- nix
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
On Wed, Nov 8, 2023 at 9:02 PM 4st nomic via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > And I'm a bit sensitive about it because I'm considering deregistering > again myself, and I'm just trying to collect evidence! That I apparently > need to prove I'm right. > > I'm also feeling generally othered by the game, like my ideas are extremely > consistently wrong, and I'm undeserving of any agoran rewards in any > fashion despite my efforts to the contrary. > > I'd Cantus cygnus if i didn't have a chance at one! Win, after years of > playing. Is that worth it to anyone? Not that Cantus cygnus actually > matters or are taken seriously, the Archives have shown that they're > somewhat of a joke or just for angrying about tech problems. > > I declare fucking apathy btw This sounds really rough. I want to try to engage with this on an emotional level, though it's hard to shift my mind into the right gear at the moment. I think part of that is my general emotional state, and part of it is Agora being Agora. Because like, it's tricky, in a game so focused on logic and rationality, to handle emotions correctly. That tends to lead to emotions building up to the point where they come out in violent bursts, which isn't exactly ideal - but it becomes necessary if that's the only way to engage with emotions in a space. It sounds like you're reaching that point, and I'm sorry about that. Cantus Cygnus is not just a mechanism for jokes. It is used for that purpose, yes, but it's also used as an outlet for venting and for getting some time away from the game. See, for instance, [1]. I'm by no means telling you to go that route - no one should have to deregister to get their concerns taken seriously. I just wanted to respond to your frustration about that topic. In general, I'd say that Agora tends towards extreme traditionalism. Major experiments are comparatively rare. People like things done "the right way". Interesting ideas are voted down simply because they might break something, or because people don't want change. At any given time, there are usually some people who are particularly stalwart about keeping things the way they are (which I think is mostly me and Janet at the moment), some people who are a little more open to potential changes, and some who are still skeptical but less vigorous about it, and some, like you, who are very experimental and eager about bringing in new ideas. Generally - in part because of cultural factors, in part because of things like the power structure making it hard to amend high powered rules - the traditionalists tend to have a substantial advantage. I worry that I'm making this about me, and also that this might not be helpful, but I thought I'd also give you a pointer to my own Cantus Cygnus [2]. It's another venty one, and it also goes a bit into some of the emotional drivers behind my own traditionalism in Agora - and about how I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not. It might help understand the "other side" a bit more? Though of course, I would never claim to speak for anyone other than myself, and a vent isn't necessarily going to be a complete explanation of even my own motivations. There's probably more to say - I can think of some things about what happened with the thesis, for instance. But I've gotta go right now. I just wanted to say something, because in my experience posting something like this and not having anyone reply sucks. I wish you well. Best of luck with the win attempt! [1] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg28723.html [2] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg42549.html -Aris
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
On Wed, 2023-11-08 at 20:22 -0800, 4st nomic via agora-business wrote: > if it helps, I think the following groups constitute the same person > (not player): Several of these (most of these?) are wrong – they are mixing up natural persons and legal constructs. For example, the AFO was an artificial person who multiple players could cause to act by announcement. The exact membership changed over time; I know at one point I was able to send messages as the AFO. Saying that, e.g., Murphy and the AFO are the same person makes about much sense as saynig that I and the AFO are the same person. Agora currently doesn't (as far as I know) have players who aren't natural persons, but it was very common in the past and is responsible for a lot of the apparently duplicated email addresses. Through most (but not all) of Agora's history, there was a rule that at least two natural persons had to be involved with each of the artificial persons, so most of the artificial persons had multiple natural persons controlling them. (There are some exceptions, dating from rulesets that allowed single-person control of an artifical person, e.g. Slave Golems.) -- ais523
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Monthly report: Arrivals and Departures
4st nomic via agora-business [2023-11-08 21:01]: > And I'm a bit sensitive about it because I'm considering deregistering > again myself, and I'm just trying to collect evidence! That I apparently > need to prove I'm right. > > I'm also feeling generally othered by the game, like my ideas are extremely > consistently wrong, and I'm undeserving of any agoran rewards in any > fashion despite my efforts to the contrary. > > I'd Cantus cygnus if i didn't have a chance at one! Win, after years of > playing. Is that worth it to anyone? Not that Cantus cygnus actually > matters or are taken seriously, the Archives have shown that they're > somewhat of a joke or just for angrying about tech problems. > > I declare fucking apathy btw Just if it matters somehow, I really love your ideas. They are very amusing, if not always completely polished. Some of them would perhaps kinda break things, and considering how Serious™ Agora is, that'd maybe not be so good. What I would *really* like is for us to be able to create “sandboxes” cheaply in order to test out ideas. Unfortunately, there's also the issue of getting people to playtest, but that's not a technical issue, so I have no idea how to solve it. Just to be specific: * Rules as items: I love the meta * SCP: I love the theming * Hats: I love the meme * Magic: just awesome If you are tired, I get it. And maybe I'm too quiet about the things I like. But, anyway, just know that I appreciate you! -- juan
