Re: DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
On 05/29/2017 04:08 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: We have a serious deregistration problem. Two of our experienced players, and one of our new players have deregistered. I'd like to open this up as a central thread about what we've done wrong. I'd appreciate if the former players would consider joining in the discussion, so that we might work together to improve Agora. Right now things are getting kind of unsustainable. -Aris I've thought about this all day (on top of the thoughts that lead to my decision) and I'm just going to say what I feel. I love Agora, and until this month I've enjoyed the company of every person involved with Agora. It's a community that exists only to build a community, a history of building history. People have dedicated a lot of time and resources into making this a successful and enjoyable experience for each other, and never asked for anything but basic respect and appreciation in return. First, I want to talk about the symptom that ultimately made the game unfun to me. Here's some numbers: Current player count: ~23 players Votes on the last round of proposals: 7 Votes on the last round of elections: 6 Comments on the Assets v4 proto: 5, from 4 players Comments on Assets and Deregistration proto: 1, from 1 player Comments on 'humble agoran farmer is a humble agoran farmer': 22, from 9 players Number of current Agencies: 10? How many have been used? 3? Number of organizations: 5. How many have been used recently? 0? In 2 weeks, we've had 29 CFJs. Every CFJ created by 1 person _requires_ the time of ais523 and the judge. How many of these facilitated gameplay? How many were presented alongside thought-out arguments, and how many were posed without a thought? To me, this reads like a game up its own ass. Gameplay is in all realms overshadowed by asides and busywork. I want to be clear here: Everyone is responsible for this, including myself. And everyone is entitled to frivolity and play and creating busywork, to some extent. This was not previously regulated because 1) we usually take turns and 2) we respected the boundaries of each other. I hope this will remain unregulated, but I hope that's accomplished by going back to respecting each others' time and interests and making it clear to people when they have failed to do so. In pursuit of the former, I'm sorry for the trouble I've caused. I'm sorry for frustrating G., through my actions or my words, enough that e quit. I'm sorry for being snarky when I was disatisfied with others, instead of being more constructive. I'm sorry for deregistering before resolving the votes, because I only realized afterwards how troublesome that might be. In pursuit of the latter, I have some specific comments: P.S.S.: I've been snarky with you, but I actually think you're becoming a model Agoran. Don't think I'm upset with you. That said, try to sit on your emails more. Write them, save them, and come back and edit them before publishing. This'll save everyone some headache, especially for official business. CuddleBeam: If the way you responded to grok's deregistration - both the first response and the reply - was your attempt at a sincere and thought-out response to someone being upset, then you need to _seriously_ re-evaluate your treatment of other people. If it is either not sincere or not thought-out, those are self evident problems. Most of the time when you attempt - and fail - to do something, it's caught by people doing a keyword search in the rules. Be more prudent before creating work for others. Most of the time when people respond to your arguments, you only respond to the ones that either reinforce your views or that you think you have a good response to. This is another example of not respecting other people's time and effort. Also: Learn what an ad hominem is, and learn that your fucking word choice affects how people view your fucking words. That last sentence sounds really offensive, to make a point. I don't have any ill-will towards you, but I really think you need to think a bit more about your actions. Think more about the thousands of CFJs, hundreds of rules, 20 years of gameplay, and years of experience some players have. Most importantly, think about the person on the other end of the message before you hit send. To the rest of Agora: I understand being patient with new players; I was new only a few years ago. But if the bar is set so low that every easily avoidable faux pas is forgiven without a thought, that treating Agora Right Good Forever amounts to only not being explicitly malicious, or that we assume someone is acting 'in good faith' when they've clearly not bothered to put in a semblance of the work they're making for other people, then I'm just not interested in putting my own time in.
Re: DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
On Mon, 2017-05-29 at 16:25 -0500, grok (caleb vines) wrote: > I'm fairly certain my deregistration statement clearly outlines that the > fruitless philosophical CFJ attempts in spite of obvious rules that answers > them are my biggest gripe. I don't mind some philosophical discussion of > the rules, but when the ruleset or prior CFJs obviously answer the question > I get frustrated. It's not worth my time to run in circles over those > discussions when they have answers already. Given that both I and the judges are struggling to keep up with the CFJ load recently, perhaps we should consider making calling a CFJ require spending Shinies, just like pending a proposal does. I'm not sure if we've experimented with limited CFJs before now. (I think there are a ton of rules trying to prevent us doing just that, but we can always change the rules if need be.) That said, a large flux of repetitive CFJs that are already answered by precedent tends to happen every time there's a surge in registrations, as new players tend to be unfamiliar with arguments that the rest of us have done to death already. (The new players occasionally find a direction to look in that the existing players hadn't seen; quite a few Wins by Paradox were created like that. So despite typically being repetitive, the CFJs in question also sometimes create useful gameplay.) I think the lack of a useful economy (Shinies don't count, as there's nothing to trade them for) is something that causes Agora to turn overly philosophical, as there's often not much else to do. Creating an economy is also hard, though, because typically most players won't participate in it, and economies need participation to really function correctly. It's interesting to note that at times of lower activity, when there isn't a functioning economy, players tend to make wild and drastic changes to the rules in the hope that there'll be more to discuss. This nearly always backfires and leaves the mailing lists dead for months at a time. -- ais523
Re: DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
I'm fairly certain my deregistration statement clearly outlines that the fruitless philosophical CFJ attempts in spite of obvious rules that answers them are my biggest gripe. I don't mind some philosophical discussion of the rules, but when the ruleset or prior CFJs obviously answer the question I get frustrated. It's not worth my time to run in circles over those discussions when they have answers already. No amount of legislating will change it, and I have no intent to re-register after 30 days unless the pattern of behavior continues. On May 29, 2017 4:19 PM, "Publius Scribonius Scholasticus" < p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote: > Are there any key behaviours you can identify that were problematic? > > Are there any solutions you would like to see Agora implement? > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com > > > > > On May 29, 2017, at 5:17 PM, grok (caleb vines) > wrote: > > > > If you have any questions about my deregistration that aren't answered > in my deregistration statement, I'd be happy to answer them. > > > > On May 29, 2017 4:08 PM, "Aris Merchant" gmail.com> wrote: > > We have a serious deregistration problem. Two of our experienced > players, and one of our new players have deregistered. I'd like to open > this up as a central thread about what we've done wrong. I'd appreciate if > the former players would consider joining in the discussion, so that we > might work together to improve Agora. Right now things are getting kind of > unsustainable. > > > > -Aris > >
Re: DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
Are there any key behaviours you can identify that were problematic? Are there any solutions you would like to see Agora implement? Publius Scribonius Scholasticus p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com > On May 29, 2017, at 5:17 PM, grok (caleb vines) wrote: > > If you have any questions about my deregistration that aren't answered in my > deregistration statement, I'd be happy to answer them. > > On May 29, 2017 4:08 PM, "Aris Merchant" > wrote: > We have a serious deregistration problem. Two of our experienced players, and > one of our new players have deregistered. I'd like to open this up as a > central thread about what we've done wrong. I'd appreciate if the former > players would consider joining in the discussion, so that we might work > together to improve Agora. Right now things are getting kind of unsustainable. > > -Aris
Re: DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
If you have any questions about my deregistration that aren't answered in my deregistration statement, I'd be happy to answer them. On May 29, 2017 4:08 PM, "Aris Merchant" wrote: > We have a serious deregistration problem. Two of our experienced players, > and one of our new players have deregistered. I'd like to open this up as a > central thread about what we've done wrong. I'd appreciate if the former > players would consider joining in the discussion, so that we might work > together to improve Agora. Right now things are getting kind of > unsustainable. > > -Aris >
Re: DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
I already proposed in a separate thread a new mailing list. As for other solutions, maybe a state of emergency where if we are plummeting down hill like this, we can hit the breaks stop and have a meta-conversation. Publius Scribonius Scholasticus p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com > On May 29, 2017, at 5:08 PM, Aris Merchant > wrote: > > We have a serious deregistration problem. Two of our experienced players, and > one of our new players have deregistered. I'd like to open this up as a > central thread about what we've done wrong. I'd appreciate if the former > players would consider joining in the discussion, so that we might work > together to improve Agora. Right now things are getting kind of unsustainable. > > -Aris
DIS: Regarding the dergistrations
We have a serious deregistration problem. Two of our experienced players, and one of our new players have deregistered. I'd like to open this up as a central thread about what we've done wrong. I'd appreciate if the former players would consider joining in the discussion, so that we might work together to improve Agora. Right now things are getting kind of unsustainable. -Aris
