Re: DIS: The State of the Agoran Economy
On 10/15/2020 12:01 PM, nix via agora-discussion wrote: However, I just wanted to shout-out Trigon, Aris, and G. for actively working on fixes and Jason, Gaelan and ATMunn and probably someone I missed for participating in the conversations and helping us flesh out our thoughts. I'm flattered that you consider my random joke suggestions participation in the conversation. :P -- ATMunn friendly neighborhood notary and Prime Minister of Agora :)
Re: DIS: The State of the Agoran Economy
On 10/15/20 11:29 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: >> A) People like cards and sets, but the route to turning those things >> into advantage isn't always obvious, and the supply of those things is a >> little hard to reason about. As a result, people tend to sit on their >> cards and only make deals for an asset the moment they need it. In an >> ideal system, we'd see more pre-emptive deals as players anticipate >> value changes, their future acquisitions, and what they will need in the >> future for their goals. > I didn't see this aspect discussed in discord specifically, so I have to > say I disagree a bit here. I like to treat this like a game, and I find > "make a strategic card trade or three to plan my next turn, and do > individual favors for people" much more fun and personable than "a > contract hopper I throw things in and get stuff out automatically". I > think there's plenty of room for both strategies (and in fact the > interplay between them is interesting) but wouldn't call either method of > play "ideal". To clarify this part I wasn't referring necessarily to automation vs personal deals. I was referring to the purpose of the deals. Right now people mostly do a deal to then immediately do something (cash a set, or use a product) with those items. I think a sign of a more strategic economy is one where there's more intermediate deals (something like "I think these will be more valuable next month so I'm going to buy them low now and sell them high later"). -- nix Webmastor
Re: DIS: The State of the Agoran Economy
On 10/15/2020 9:01 AM, nix via agora-discussion wrote: > In the past few days the discord (and the IRC, thanks to the AgoraBot > bridge) has been very active with discussion on economic problems and > solutions. This has lead to a few different proposals being worked on. > There's some great collaboration happening, but the problem with chat > style fora is that big ideas get buried in the chat. So I just wanted to > repost some of the big ideas being discussed, from my own perspective. > > Overall, it seems like most people in the discussion like the current > economy in concept, and wanted to do some reworks that keep the same > ideas but hopefully make it more active and dynamic. Specifically: > > A) People like cards and sets, but the route to turning those things > into advantage isn't always obvious, and the supply of those things is a > little hard to reason about. As a result, people tend to sit on their > cards and only make deals for an asset the moment they need it. In an > ideal system, we'd see more pre-emptive deals as players anticipate > value changes, their future acquisitions, and what they will need in the > future for their goals. I didn't see this aspect discussed in discord specifically, so I have to say I disagree a bit here. I like to treat this like a game, and I find "make a strategic card trade or three to plan my next turn, and do individual favors for people" much more fun and personable than "a contract hopper I throw things in and get stuff out automatically". I think there's plenty of room for both strategies (and in fact the interplay between them is interesting) but wouldn't call either method of play "ideal". Regardless of the style of play preferred, I agree that we're not seeing the supply-side dynamics to make anticipation interesting (i.e. nothing like "hmm it looks like people will have lots of blots soon so blot-b-gones will be more valuable"). The base value (the "value" of pending a proposal or expunging a blot) doesn't fluctuate a whole lot, and there's no randomness in supply or circumstances, so just a few trades to keep a steady supply is all that's needed, and that's kinda dull. [side note: driving supply-side speculative bubbles was one of the goals for barrels, not sure it will work once the changes go through but that was one intent]. -G.
DIS: The State of the Agoran Economy
In the past few days the discord (and the IRC, thanks to the AgoraBot bridge) has been very active with discussion on economic problems and solutions. This has lead to a few different proposals being worked on. There's some great collaboration happening, but the problem with chat style fora is that big ideas get buried in the chat. So I just wanted to repost some of the big ideas being discussed, from my own perspective. Overall, it seems like most people in the discussion like the current economy in concept, and wanted to do some reworks that keep the same ideas but hopefully make it more active and dynamic. Specifically: A) People like cards and sets, but the route to turning those things into advantage isn't always obvious, and the supply of those things is a little hard to reason about. As a result, people tend to sit on their cards and only make deals for an asset the moment they need it. In an ideal system, we'd see more pre-emptive deals as players anticipate value changes, their future acquisitions, and what they will need in the future for their goals. B) People like coins, specifically they like that coin holdings continuously accrue as a long-term representation of effort and economic success. But the current set up has no cap (money supply keeps increasing) and no scaling (you make the same amount of money for the same action every time). That means the rich have more and more money, auctions and other prices go up, and people in the lower end of holdings can't participate in the coin market effectively. In an ideal system, a new active player would be able to pass up an older, inactive player in a reasonable time frame. C) Most of the ways to get assets, both coins and cards, are gerontocratic. Others, like CFJs, Finger-Pointing and Glitter are difficult to do consistently or plan for. In an ideal system, officers and nonofficers would have an opportunity at winning. An officer's rewards would not (by themselves) be enough to over-power a motivated player's economic gameplay. Originally I wrote a longer form of this where I talked about some of the solutions that have been discussed and tried to justify them. However, I think it's more effective to see proposals and arguments for them side-by-side so I'll leave that as an exercise for the authors of upcoming proposals. However, I just wanted to shout-out Trigon, Aris, and G. for actively working on fixes and Jason, Gaelan and ATMunn and probably someone I missed for participating in the conversations and helping us flesh out our thoughts. -- nix Webmastor
