Re: DIS: Draft: Conditionals and Determinacy v3
"At the discretion of a judge" is an awful way to put in, because you're explicitly tying the platonic gamestate to the whims of a judge. It's basically saying "a loop fails or doesn't fail; whether it does so is completely up to a judge who can only look at the case later". What is the game state until a CFJ is called and a judge makes a decision? What if one is never called? On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 at 02:39 Aris Merchant < thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Oops. I think I can fix most of those either by cutting things or > tweaking bits. There's one complaint I can't think of a good way to > fix (the thing about invalidating loops), but I hope that isn't a > deal-breaker on its own? > > -Aris > > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 4:36 AM, Alexis Hunt wrote: > > You haven't addressed most of my concerns from the last draft, so I will > > still be strongly voting against, and likely deregistering if it passes. > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017, 00:33 Aris Merchant, > > wrote: > >> > >> Title: Conditionals and Determinacy v3 > >> Adoption index: 3.0 > >> Author: Aris > >> Co-author(s): > >> > >> Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Conditionals and Determinacy", with > the > >> following text: > >> > >> A conditional is any textual structure that attempts to make a > statement > >> affecting any part or aspect of the gamestate (the substrate), or the > >> permissibility or possibility of any action affecting such a part or > >> aspect, > >> dependent on the truth value or other state of a textual structure > >> (the condition). The condition is said to be "affixed" to the > substrate > >> (inverse "to be conditional upon"). > >> > >> A condition is inextricable if it is unclear, ambiguous, circular, > >> inconsistent, paradoxical, depends on information that is impossible > or > >> unreasonably difficult to determine, or otherwise requires an > >> unreasonable > >> effort resolve; otherwise it is extricable. A conditional is > >> inextricable if > >> its condition is inextricable; otherwise it is extricable. A player > >> SHOULD NOT > >> use an inextricable conditional for any purpose. > >> > >> If a restricted value, or the value of a conditional, or a value > >> otherwise > >> required to determine the outcome of a restricted action, CANNOT be > >> reasonably > >> determined (without circularity or paradox) from information > reasonably > >> available, or if it alternates instantaneously and indefinitely > between > >> values, then the value is considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it > >> is > >> determinate. > >> > >> If an action would, as part of its effect, make a restricted value > >> indeterminate, it is void and without effect unless it is explicitly > >> permitted > >> to do so by a rule; this restriction should be interpreted in > accordance > >> with existing precedent, and this rule defers to judicial discretion > and > >> game custom. > >> > >> Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Conditional Announcements", with the > >> following > >> text: > >> > >> A player SHALL NOT deliberately make an action taken by announcement > >> conditional on an inextricable condition, and any such conditional is > >> INVALID, and its substrate void and without effect; these restrictions > >> should > >> be interpreted in accordance with existing precedent, and this rule > >> defers to > >> judicial discretion and game custom. > >> > >> Extricable conditionals do not necessarily fail; however, they must be > >> reasonably resolvable given complete knowledge of the gamestate at the > >> time > >> the message takes effect. This knowledge CAN require interpretation of > >> data > >> in non-trivial ways (e.g. interpretation requiring CFJs), but such > >> interpretation must be achievable without absurd effort. No > >> by-announcement > >> conditional may ever be conditional upon information which cannot be > >> deduced > >> from the knowable gamestate at the time the message takes effect, nor > >> can > >> such conditionals ever change the time the message takes effect. > >> > >> Loops are generally viable, subject to the above restrictions. > However, > >> long loops used abusively may fail, at the discretion of a judge; the > >> presumption is in favor of the loop being successful. > >> > >> This rule is intended as a codification and clarification of existing > >> precedent. It does not attempt to overrule existing precedents, but > only > >> to > >> make explicit the principles by which its subject matter is to be > >> understood. > >> > >> Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Action Rationality", with the > following > >> text: > >> > >> An irrational action is one that is either deliberately and > >> malisoally hidden from view > >> inside a larger message (e.g. a report) or contains excessive > >> repetitions > >> or complex loops that make the message unreasonably hard to comprehend > >> or > >> respond to; all other actions
Re: DIS: Draft: Conditionals and Determinacy v3
Oops. I think I can fix most of those either by cutting things or tweaking bits. There's one complaint I can't think of a good way to fix (the thing about invalidating loops), but I hope that isn't a deal-breaker on its own? -Aris On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 4:36 AM, Alexis Hunt wrote: > You haven't addressed most of my concerns from the last draft, so I will > still be strongly voting against, and likely deregistering if it passes. > > > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017, 00:33 Aris Merchant, > wrote: >> >> Title: Conditionals and Determinacy v3 >> Adoption index: 3.0 >> Author: Aris >> Co-author(s): >> >> Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Conditionals and Determinacy", with the >> following text: >> >> A conditional is any textual structure that attempts to make a statement >> affecting any part or aspect of the gamestate (the substrate), or the >> permissibility or possibility of any action affecting such a part or >> aspect, >> dependent on the truth value or other state of a textual structure >> (the condition). The condition is said to be "affixed" to the substrate >> (inverse "to be conditional upon"). >> >> A condition is inextricable if it is unclear, ambiguous, circular, >> inconsistent, paradoxical, depends on information that is impossible or >> unreasonably difficult to determine, or otherwise requires an >> unreasonable >> effort resolve; otherwise it is extricable. A conditional is >> inextricable if >> its condition is inextricable; otherwise it is extricable. A player >> SHOULD NOT >> use an inextricable conditional for any purpose. >> >> If a restricted value, or the value of a conditional, or a value >> otherwise >> required to determine the outcome of a restricted action, CANNOT be >> reasonably >> determined (without circularity or paradox) from information reasonably >> available, or if it alternates instantaneously and indefinitely between >> values, then the value is considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it >> is >> determinate. >> >> If an action would, as part of its effect, make a restricted value >> indeterminate, it is void and without effect unless it is explicitly >> permitted >> to do so by a rule; this restriction should be interpreted in accordance >> with existing precedent, and this rule defers to judicial discretion and >> game custom. >> >> Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Conditional Announcements", with the >> following >> text: >> >> A player SHALL NOT deliberately make an action taken by announcement >> conditional on an inextricable condition, and any such conditional is >> INVALID, and its substrate void and without effect; these restrictions >> should >> be interpreted in accordance with existing precedent, and this rule >> defers to >> judicial discretion and game custom. >> >> Extricable conditionals do not necessarily fail; however, they must be >> reasonably resolvable given complete knowledge of the gamestate at the >> time >> the message takes effect. This knowledge CAN require interpretation of >> data >> in non-trivial ways (e.g. interpretation requiring CFJs), but such >> interpretation must be achievable without absurd effort. No >> by-announcement >> conditional may ever be conditional upon information which cannot be >> deduced >> from the knowable gamestate at the time the message takes effect, nor >> can >> such conditionals ever change the time the message takes effect. >> >> Loops are generally viable, subject to the above restrictions. However, >> long loops used abusively may fail, at the discretion of a judge; the >> presumption is in favor of the loop being successful. >> >> This rule is intended as a codification and clarification of existing >> precedent. It does not attempt to overrule existing precedents, but only >> to >> make explicit the principles by which its subject matter is to be >> understood. >> >> Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Action Rationality", with the following >> text: >> >> An irrational action is one that is either deliberately and >> malisoally hidden from view >> inside a larger message (e.g. a report) or contains excessive >> repetitions >> or complex loops that make the message unreasonably hard to comprehend >> or >> respond to; all other actions are rational. >> >> A player SHALL not take an irrational by announcement action, and any >> such >> actions fail. >> >> Amend Rule 1023, "Common Definitions", by removing the third item of the >> top level list, and renumbering appropriately.
Re: DIS: Draft: Conditionals and Determinacy v3
You haven't addressed most of my concerns from the last draft, so I will still be strongly voting against, and likely deregistering if it passes. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017, 00:33 Aris Merchant, < thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Title: Conditionals and Determinacy v3 > Adoption index: 3.0 > Author: Aris > Co-author(s): > > Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Conditionals and Determinacy", with the > following text: > > A conditional is any textual structure that attempts to make a statement > affecting any part or aspect of the gamestate (the substrate), or the > permissibility or possibility of any action affecting such a part or > aspect, > dependent on the truth value or other state of a textual structure > (the condition). The condition is said to be "affixed" to the substrate > (inverse "to be conditional upon"). > > A condition is inextricable if it is unclear, ambiguous, circular, > inconsistent, paradoxical, depends on information that is impossible or > unreasonably difficult to determine, or otherwise requires an > unreasonable > effort resolve; otherwise it is extricable. A conditional is > inextricable if > its condition is inextricable; otherwise it is extricable. A player > SHOULD NOT > use an inextricable conditional for any purpose. > > If a restricted value, or the value of a conditional, or a value > otherwise > required to determine the outcome of a restricted action, CANNOT be > reasonably > determined (without circularity or paradox) from information reasonably > available, or if it alternates instantaneously and indefinitely between > values, then the value is considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it is > determinate. > > If an action would, as part of its effect, make a restricted value > indeterminate, it is void and without effect unless it is explicitly > permitted > to do so by a rule; this restriction should be interpreted in accordance > with existing precedent, and this rule defers to judicial discretion and > game custom. > > Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Conditional Announcements", with the > following > text: > > A player SHALL NOT deliberately make an action taken by announcement > conditional on an inextricable condition, and any such conditional is > INVALID, and its substrate void and without effect; these restrictions > should > be interpreted in accordance with existing precedent, and this rule > defers to > judicial discretion and game custom. > > Extricable conditionals do not necessarily fail; however, they must be > reasonably resolvable given complete knowledge of the gamestate at the > time > the message takes effect. This knowledge CAN require interpretation of > data > in non-trivial ways (e.g. interpretation requiring CFJs), but such > interpretation must be achievable without absurd effort. No > by-announcement > conditional may ever be conditional upon information which cannot be > deduced > from the knowable gamestate at the time the message takes effect, nor can > such conditionals ever change the time the message takes effect. > > Loops are generally viable, subject to the above restrictions. However, > long loops used abusively may fail, at the discretion of a judge; the > presumption is in favor of the loop being successful. > > This rule is intended as a codification and clarification of existing > precedent. It does not attempt to overrule existing precedents, but only > to > make explicit the principles by which its subject matter is to be > understood. > > Create a power 3.0 rule entitled "Action Rationality", with the following > text: > > An irrational action is one that is either deliberately and > malisoally hidden from view > inside a larger message (e.g. a report) or contains excessive repetitions > or complex loops that make the message unreasonably hard to comprehend or > respond to; all other actions are rational. > > A player SHALL not take an irrational by announcement action, and any > such > actions fail. > > Amend Rule 1023, "Common Definitions", by removing the third item of the > top level list, and renumbering appropriately. >
