Re: [Python-Dev] [help] where to learn how to upgrade from 2.7 to 3

[Steve Holden]

You can find information about python-list at
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

regards
Steve Holden


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 4:28 AM Ryan Gonzalez  wrote:

> Python-dev is for development *of* Python, not *in* Python! You want
> python-list instead.
>
> Also, make sure you include some full example code where the error occurs
> and what exactly is failing. Right now, it's hard for me to tell what
> exactly is going on...
>
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 8:21 PM Avery Richards 
> wrote:
>
>> I am having so much fun learning python! I did not install the best
>> version into my mac at first. Now I can't find out how to upgrade, (pip is
>> awesome but not as conversational as I need it to be on the subject). I've
>> downloaded the packages from python.org, installed all sorts of stuff,
>>  I configured my text editor to recognize python3, resolving formatting
>> strings output, but now as I progress the
>>
>> [end = '  ']
>>
>> is not recognized. I have figured out a lot on my own, can you help me
>> upgrade to 3.6 once and for all? Again I consulted with pip and followed
>> faq websites (maybe a mistake there, idk).
>>
>> please please thank you!
>>
>> ~Avery
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>>
> --
>
> Ryan (ライアン)
> Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
> https://refi64.com/
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Difficulty building my Home page on wiki.python.org

[Steve Holden]

Hi Anthony,

First of all, welcome to the Wiki and thanks for your interest. I've added
your username to the Editors group, which should be all that's required. If
not, please do let us know.

regards
Steve Holden


On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 1:18 AM Anthony Flury via pydotorg-www <
pydotorg-www@python.org> wrote:

> I have an account on wiki.python.org - with my user name of 'AnthonyFlury'
>
> I am a contributing member of the PSF - and I wanted to create a home Page.
>
> Each time I navigate to the 'Create your home page' link - I get a page
> which states I am unable to edit this page.
>
> Is it an issue currently with the wiki, or more likely an issue with my
> permissions on the wiki.
>
>
> --
> Anthony Flury
> *Email* : anthony.fl...@btinternet.com 
> *Twitter* : @TonyFlury <https://twitter.com/TonyFlury/>
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Re: [PSF-Community] ACTION NEEDED: New PSF Stickers - last chance to submit your design!

[Steve Holden]

> Voting will go live on Monday, September 17, so there are still a few
days to get your design in.

Woah. Voting? Who? Why? I thought we were just noodling to give a designer
some ideas, I didn't realise it was a competition.

Personally I have no graphics training, but I work with a professional
design team, and I know how much better their ideas can be than mine.

Whatever the result of this vote, let's be clear in our minds that our
end-product should merely be a starting point for the designer.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Why does the Contributor Agreement need my address?

[Steve Holden]

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 5:24 AM Joseph C. Sible 
wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 11:47 PM Tim Peters  wrote:
> [...]
> > As to why they want an address, you'll have to ask a
> > lawyer!  There aren't any on this list.  So, if you really want to
> > pursue this, I suggest you direct the question instead to the Python
> > Software Foundation, which deals with the project's legalities:
> >
> > p...@python.org
>
> Thanks, this is useful information.
>
> 


There's a reason he was called "the timbot" ;-)
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Want to add codewith.mu

[Steve Holden]

Hi Ashok,

We'll need a little more context - is this a request for Wiki editing
privileges? If so we'll need your Wiki account name. Once we have that it's
quite easy to add *you* to the editors list.

regards
Steve Holden


On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 5:22 PM ashok bakthavathsalam 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I would like to add http://codewith.mu to the list.
>
>   % ashok
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Re: [PSF-Community] Fwd: New PSF Stickers - We need your help!

[Steve Holden]

That could be a nice way to integrate the motif throughout the extended
design.

Of course, what we really need is some design skills applied to the
problem. I'm just regarding this as brainstorming before the graphics whizz
kids get involved.

Steve


On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 2:27 PM Yarko Tymciurak  wrote:

> I like this ... and have the thought of the center hex design (?) being
> (additionally) background faded, and enlarged to cover all the hexagons
> (with the possible exception of the center one)...
>
> ...just thinking out loud...
>
> - yarko
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:21 PM Paddy McCarthy 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message -
>> From: Paddy McCarthy 
>> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 20:53
>> Subject: Re: [PSF-Community] New PSF Stickers - We need your help!
>> To: 
>>
>>
>> How about …
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2018 at 18:56, Betsy Waliszewski  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Pythonistas!
>>>
>>> The PSF would love your input on sticker designs. We have a new
>>> hex-shape sticker [attach pic] and would love to get 5 more designs so that
>>> people can collect all 6.
>>>
>>> Send us your ideas and we'll let the community decide which ones they
>>> like best!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Betsy
>>> ___
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Re: [PSF-Community] Fwd: New PSF Stickers - We need your help!

[Steve Holden]

I was just throwing ideas out. I presume the actual design work will be
done by a professional designer who knows what they are doing!

Steve Holden

On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 2:06 AM, Gregory P. Smith  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:56 PM Mike Pirnat  wrote:
>
>> Just as a quick point of information, the Stickers Standard indicates
>> that hexagonal stickers should be oriented with a vertex at the top:
>> https://sticker.how/#type-hexagon
>>
>> I like the use of the official logo font in Steve's attachments though.
>> :-)
>>
>
> Having the python . org with the . landing on the bottom vertex of the
> sticker would also re-balance the universe.
>
> if anyone goes with continents, an Australia one might want python.org
> upside down on the top vertex instead. ;)
>
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Re: [PSF-Community] New PSF Stickers - We need your help!

[Steve Holden]

Those designs are fun!

Steve Holden

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <
arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> here's my 4 more proposals, fun try. see attached.
>
> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 9:56 PM Betsy Waliszewski 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Pythonistas!
>>
>> The PSF would love your input on sticker designs. We have a new hex-shape
>> sticker [attach pic] and would love to get 5 more designs so that people
>> can collect all 6.
>>
>> Send us your ideas and we'll let the community decide which ones they
>> like best!
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Betsy
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>>
>
>
> --
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj
> Mauritius
>
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Re: [PSF-Community] New PSF Stickers - We need your help!

[Steve Holden]

Here's a "Collect the set" idea: have seven stickers, the first six with
the letters "p", "y", "t",  "h", "o" and "n" and the middle one with the
Python symbol in it.



Steve Holden

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Philip James 
wrote:

> A picture being worth a thousand words, here’s a thing I think would be
> fun, to expand on my earlier idea:
> [image: image1.jpeg]
>
> The idea being we could wrap around OTHER hex stickers, and have something
> that’s pretty unique.
>
> On Aug 20, 2018, at 11:36, Noah Cse  wrote:
>
> 2018-08-19 5:30 GMT+09:00 Steve Holden :
>
>> Personally I'd prefer it if the wording were horizontal (i.e rotate
>> everything but the Python symbol anti-clockwise 30°. But this, being
>> personal opinion, should probably be taken as not worth much.  S
>>
>> Steve Holden
>>
>
>
> the same as mine.
> BRs,
> Noah
>
>
> 2018-08-19 5:30 GMT+09:00 Steve Holden :
>
>> Personally I'd prefer it if the wording were horizontal (i.e rotate
>> everything but the Python symbol anti-clockwise 30°. But this, being
>> personal opinion, should probably be taken as not worth much.  S
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve Holden
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Betsy Waliszewski 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Pythonistas!
>>>
>>> The PSF would love your input on sticker designs. We have a new
>>> hex-shape sticker [attach pic] and would love to get 5 more designs so that
>>> people can collect all 6.
>>>
>>> Send us your ideas and we'll let the community decide which ones they
>>> like best!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Betsy
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edits of Python GUI pages

[Steve Holden]

And, since I rudely forgot to mention it in my last m essage, thanks very
much for caring enough to become a WikiGnome!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 8:23 AM, Steve Holden  wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> I see Chris has sorted out access for you. I think the whole area of GUI
> documentation is in need of some love, so if you want to do some curation
> that would be really useful (though naturally you shouldn't feel obliged to
> do anything - this is open source).
>
> It's confusing for readers the way the material is currently organised,
> and much of it is now of historical interest only (there will never be
> another Pyjamas release, for example). If you have the time and the
> inclination I'm sure you would be helping many readers.
>
> regartds
>  Steve
>
>
> Steve Holden
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 2:46 AM, Mike Barnett 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>>
>>
>> I read that I need to request to make edits.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would like to add the package PySimpleGUI to the list of GUIs on this
>> page:
>>
>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GUI%20Programming%20in%20Python
>>
>>
>>
>> and on this page:
>>
>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GuiProgramming
>>
>>
>>
>> There are only 3 packages listed on that page that have been updated in
>> 2018?  Wow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *@mike *
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edits of Python GUI pages

[Steve Holden]

Hi Mike,

I see Chris has sorted out access for you. I think the whole area of GUI
documentation is in need of some love, so if you want to do some curation
that would be really useful (though naturally you shouldn't feel obliged to
do anything - this is open source).

It's confusing for readers the way the material is currently organised, and
much of it is now of historical interest only (there will never be another
Pyjamas release, for example). If you have the time and the inclination I'm
sure you would be helping many readers.

regartds
 Steve


Steve Holden

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 2:46 AM, Mike Barnett 
wrote:

> Hi
>
>
>
> I read that I need to request to make edits.
>
>
>
> I would like to add the package PySimpleGUI to the list of GUIs on this
> page:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GUI%20Programming%20in%20Python
>
>
>
> and on this page:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GuiProgramming
>
>
>
> There are only 3 packages listed on that page that have been updated in
> 2018?  Wow.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *@mike *
>
>
>
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Re: [PSF-Community] New PSF Stickers - We need your help!

[Steve Holden]

Personally I'd prefer it if the wording were horizontal (i.e rotate
everything but the Python symbol anti-clockwise 30°. But this, being
personal opinion, should probably be taken as not worth much.  S



Steve Holden

On Fri, Aug 17, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Betsy Waliszewski  wrote:

> Hi Pythonistas!
>
> The PSF would love your input on sticker designs. We have a new hex-shape
> sticker [attach pic] and would love to get 5 more designs so that people
> can collect all 6.
>
> Send us your ideas and we'll let the community decide which ones they like
> best!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Betsy
>
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/psf-community
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Refactor __get_builtin_constructor on hasklib.py

[Steve Holden]

Hi there,

Good to see you on python-dev. It's always good to see people getting
excited about helping with Python's development.

The changes you suggest are, unless I've missed something, purely cosmetic
- affecting readability only. This implies that you feel the code as it
stands isn't as readable as it could be. You must admit that "it looks
messy" is a matter of opinion, and alone isn't much of a justification for
making changes to a project that will reach its end of life in less than
eighteen months.

The code in the standard library is mostly fairly well-scrutinised, and as
PEP 8 reminds us, change made for purely stylistic reasons threatens to
introduce new bugs.

It's not obvious how much of the developer documentation you've seen, so it
might be worth mentioning https://devguide.python.org/ as a good starting
point for anyone wanting to contribute.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 8:00 AM, 蔡銘峯  wrote:

> Hello everybody,
> I am Park Tsai. I want to refactor __get_builtin_constructor on hasklib.py
> of python 2.7 (https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/2.7/Lib/hashlib.
> py#L72).
> This is the first time that I try to refactor code of CPython on GitHub,
> so I am very excited.
>
> This is __get_builtin_constructor code on hasklib.py ,as follows.
>
> def __get_builtin_constructor(name):
> try:
> if name in ('SHA1', 'sha1'):
> import _sha
> return _sha.new
> elif name in ('MD5', 'md5'):
> import _md5
> return _md5.new
> elif name in ('SHA256', 'sha256', 'SHA224', 'sha224'):
> import _sha256
> bs = name[3:]
> if bs == '256':
> return _sha256.sha256
> elif bs == '224':
> return _sha256.sha224
> elif name in ('SHA512', 'sha512', 'SHA384', 'sha384'):
> import _sha512
> bs = name[3:]
> if bs == '512':
> return _sha512.sha512
> elif bs == '384':
> return _sha512.sha384
> except ImportError:
> pass  # no extension module, this hash is unsupported.
>
> raise ValueError('unsupported hash type ' + name)
>
>
> When I read this code, it looks messy, so I want to refactor it and make
> it become more clearly .
>
> Then, it will be like this
>
> def get_builtin_constructor(name):
> try:
> if name[:3] in ('SHA','sha'):
>if(name[3:]=='1'):
>import _sha
>return _sha.new
>
>elif (name[3:] == '224'):
>import _sha256
>return _sha256.sha224
>
>elif (name[3:] == '256'):
>import _sha256
>return _sha256.sha256
>
>elif (name[3:] == '384'):
>import _sha512
>return _sha512.sha384
>
>elif (name[3:] == '512'):
>import _sha512
>return _sha512.sha512
> elif name in ('MD5', 'md5'):
> import _md5
> return _md5.new
>
> except ImportError:
> pass # no extension module, this hash is unsupported.
>
> raise ValueError('unsupported hash type ' + name)
>
> I will be grateful for any help you can provide. I really appreciate any
> feedback you can offer!
>
> Best regards,
> Park Tsai !!
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Benchmarks why we need PEP 576/579/580

[Steve Holden]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> ​[...]
> The new BDFL may be less demanding though. :=)
>

​I sincerely hope not.

regards
 Steve​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Fuzzing the Python standard library

[Steve Holden]

On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 11:44 PM, Paul G  wrote:

> In many languages numeric types can't hold arbitrarily large values, and I
> for one hadn't really previously recognized that if you read in a numeric
> value with an exponent that it would be represented *exactly* in memory
> (and thus one object with a very compact representation can take up huge
> amounts of memory). It's also not *inconceivable* that under the hood
> Python would represent fractions.Fraction("1.64E664644") "lazily" in
> some fashion so that it did not consume all the memory on disk.
>
> ​Sooner or later you are going to need the digits of the number to perform
a computation. Exactly when would you propose the deferred evaluation
should take place?

There are already occasional inquiries about the effects of creation of
such large numbers and their unexpected effects, so they aren't completely
unknown. At the same time, this isn't exactly a mainstream "bug", as
evidenced by the fact that such issues
​

​are relatively rare.
​

> It seems to me that "Hey by the way the size of this thing is unbounded
> and because of exponents small strings can expand to huge objects" is a
> good tip.
>
> ​Not an unreasonable suggestion. Perhaps you could draft a documentation
change - personally I'm not even sure where the best place for the warning
would be.
​
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Do we really need a ":" in ":="?

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 6:21 PM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:

> ​[...]
>


>   I was -1 as well, but I’d say I’m a firm +0 now[*].  I like how many of
> the problematic syntactic and semantic issues have been narrowed and
> prohibited, and I can see myself using this sparingly.
>
​[...]

I think experience will show that's how it's best used - only for
measurable wins. But then Python is the kind of language where "if it's
simpler, use that" is a part of the philosophy, thanks to the Zen's
popularity.​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Can I make marshal.dumps() slower but stabler?

[Steve Holden]

Eve is indeed based on stackless 2, and are well capable of ignoring
changes they don't think they need (or were when I was working with them).
At one point I seem to remember they optimised their interpreter to use
singleton floating-point values, saving large quantities of memory by
having only one floating-point zero.

Steve Holden

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 9:55 AM, Alex Walters 
wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Python-Dev  > list=sdamon@python.org> On Behalf Of Victor Stinner
> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 4:01 AM
> > To: Serhiy Storchaka 
> > Cc: python-dev 
> > Subject: Re: [Python-Dev] Can I make marshal.dumps() slower but stabler?
> >
> > 2018-07-12 8:21 GMT+02:00 Serhiy Storchaka :
> > >> Is there any real application which marshal.dumps() performance is
> > >> critical?
> > >
> > > EVE Online is a well known example.
> >
> > EVE Online has been created in 2003. I guess that it still uses Python
> 2.7.
> >
> > I'm not sure that a video game would pick marshal in 2018.
> >
>
> EVE doesn't use stock CPython, IIRC.  They use a version of stackless 2,
> with their own patches.  If a company is willing to patch python itself, I
> don't think their practices should be cited without more context about what
> they actually modified.
>
> > Victor
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Re: [Python-Dev] Call for prudence about PEP-572

[Steve Holden]

On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Giampaolo Rodola' 
wrote:

> ​[...]
> I find that (space between the parentheses of a function call statement)
> too unnatural as a place where to put an assignment. It is not even
> "guarded" by a keyword like "if" or  "while" which can help as indicators
> that an assignment may occur. Also, I think it's way too easy to confuse it
> with a keyword argument:
>
> >>> foo(x = 1)  # keyword arg
> >>> foo(x := 1)  # assignment + value passing
> ​[...]
>

​But the PEP 8 spellings are​

foo(x=1)

and

   f(x := 1).

The extra spacing makes it obvious that this isn't a regular named argument.
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Re: [Python-Dev] A "day of silence" on PEP 572?

[Steve Holden]

On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 12:18 AM, Ryan Gonzalez  wrote:

> On July 6, 2018 5:04:05 PM Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>
>
>> (or contact the PEP's authors
>> privately).
>>
>>
> Hoenstly, this feels like a recipe for a disaster...
>
> ​Many of the people who have strong opinions in this know the PEP authors
from years of working together.​

​They might feel that personal channels are appropriate.​ I'd agree it
would be a bit presumptuous and spammy of others to use them.
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[issue15443] datetime module has no support for nanoseconds

[Steve Holden]

Change by Steve Holden :


--
nosy:  -holdenweb

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Re: [Python-Dev] Informal educator feedback on PEP 572 (was Re: 2018 Python Language Summit coverage, last part)

[Steve Holden]

On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 8:37 PM, Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 6/24/2018 7:25 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> I'd wager that the people who might be most horrified about it
>>
>
> the (b) scoping rule change
>
> would be people who feel strongly that the change to the
>> comprehension scope rules in Python 3 is a big improvement,
>>
>
> I might not be one of those 'most horrified' by (b), but I increasingly
> don't like it, and I was at best -0 on the comprehension scope change. To
> me, iteration variable assignment in the current scope is a non-problem.
> So to me the change was mostly useless churn.  Little benefit, little
> harm.  And not worth fighting when others saw a benefit.
>
> However, having made the change to nested scopes, I think we should stick
> with them.  Or repeal them.  (I believe there is another way to isolate
> iteration names -- see  below).  To me, (b) amounts to half repealing the
> nested scope change, making comprehensions half-fowl, half-fish chimeras.
>
​[...]​


> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> ​I'd like to ask: how many readers of ​

​this email have ever deliberately taken advantage of the limited Python 3
scope in comprehensions and generator expressions to use what would
otherwise be a conflicting local variable name?​

I appreciate that the scope limitation can sidestep accidental naming
errors, which is a good thing.

Unfortunately, unless we anticipate Python 4 (or whatever) also making for
loops have an implicit scope, I am left wondering whether it's not too
large a price to pay. After all, special cases aren't special enough to
break the rules, and unless the language is headed towards implicit scope
for all uses of "for" one could argue that the scope limitation is a
special case too far. It certainly threatens to be yet another confusion
for learners, and while that isn't the only consideration, it should be
given due weight.
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Re: [Python-Dev] A more flexible task creation

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 8:14 PM, Chris Barker via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> Excuse my ignorance (or maybe it's a vocabulary thing), but I'm trying to
> understand the problem here.
>


> So why do queries fail with 1 tasks? or ANY number? If the async DB
> access code is written right, a given query should not "await" unless it is
> in a safe state to do so.
>
> So what am I missing here???
>
> because threads ARE concurrent, and there is no advantage to having more
>> threads than can actually run at once, and having many more does cause
>> thread-switching performance issues.
>>
>
> To me, tasks are (somewhat) logically analogous to threads.
>>
>
> kinda -- in the sense that they are run (and completed) in arbitrary
> order, But they are different, and that difference is key to this issue.
>
> As Yury expressed interest in this idea, there must be something I'm
> missing.
>
> What is it?
>

All tasks need resources, and bookkeeping for such tasks is likely to slow
things down. More importantly, with an uncontrolled number of tasks you can
require an uncontrolled use of resources, decreasing efficiency to levels
well below that attainable with sensible conservation of resources.
Imagine, if you will, a task that starts by allocating 1GB of memory. Would
you want 10,000 of those?
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Re: [pydotorg-www] [Webmaster] 5 Times Attempt

[Steve Holden]

Hi there,

No, your two recent such inquiries are the first time either webmaster or
pydotorg-www (I subscribe to both) has received email from you. You appear
to have got through now, though!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:05 AM, Bestowe International <
majawalli...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello
>
> Did you see my last communication by email?
>
> Maja
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Editing permissions for IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments for AndrewJanke

[Steve Holden]

Your call, but as an active Wing user I will just point out that the
company support their product very actively, if that helps.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 3:18 AM, Andrew Janke  wrote:

>
> On 5/27/18 10:25 AM, Mats Wichmann wrote:
>
>> On 05/26/2018 12:22 PM, Andrew Janke wrote:
>>
>>> Good to go. I was able to edit the page. Thanks!
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Thanks for taking this on... someone motivated to pick a an IDE is the
>> perfect candidate to update the tables.  You even inspired me to make a
>> few more changes!
>>
>> While we're here, there are links to a number of articles that compare
>> IDEs.  In this modern world, there appear to be an infinite number of
>> "ten best" type articles, as, sadly, people have learned how effective
>> they are as clickbait, so I'm not sure how to refresh this list, but I'm
>> thinking that we should drop the older articles. The ones from 2000,
>> 2005, even 2008 seem unlikely to be very applicable, as all of the
>> surviving IDEs have evolved, and some (BlackAdder?) don't seem to have
>> survived.  Any objections if I kill a few?  Andrew - if you found any
>> useful comparsion article, please feel free to add, I'm just thinking we
>> shouldn't add the dozens, maybe hundreds, of such comparisons that pop
>> up if you ask a search engine.
>>
>> -- mats
>>
>> That makes sense.
>
> I have no useful comparison articles to add. I think one can smell the
> difference between original content and a "ten best" clickbait listicle,
> and all the decent original-content comparison articles I've found are
> already in this Wiki entry. (E.g. this one that you have linked is a really
> good one: https://xcorr.net/2013/04/17/evaluating-ides-for-scientific-
> python/) Which is kind of sad because the last comparo article is from
> 2013.
>
> At any rate, I also agree with not adding all the content-farm junk that
> one finds in Google.
>
> IMHO, as far as old links on this article go, I'd say remove the link
> that's for WingIDE specifically, but actually keep all the rest, even the
> ones as old as 2000: those are good, content-deep articles, are of
> historical interest, serve as examples of how to compare IDEs, and given
> how slowly the Python IDE ecosystem seems to be evolving, are still
> relevant. I found them all useful in my current efforts to learn about
> Python IDEs. And some of these articles don't surface in a Google search
> for "Python IDEs"; they're buried in "ten best" clickbait, so I think it's
> still useful to have them collected in a list.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrew
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edit Access

[Steve Holden]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for caring about the Wiki content. I've added your user name o the
editors list, so you should be good to go!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 2:58 PM, Michael Herrmann 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> my account name is MichaelHerrmann. I would like to edit this page:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/PyQt/Deploying_PyQt_Applications
>
> to add a new library:
>
> https://build-system.fman.io
>
> Thank you and kind regards,
> Michael
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Editing permissions for IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments for AndrewJanke

[Steve Holden]

Hi Andrew,

You should be good togo. Thanks for helping out!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 11:07 AM, Andrew Janke  wrote:

> Hi, wiki.python.org folks,
>
> I'm a new user on the wiki.python.org Wiki. My username is AndrewJanke.
> I would like to edit the page IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments, and I
> see on https://wiki.python.org/moin/FrontPage#use that getting
> permission is required.
>
> It looks like the "Updated" column for some of the IDEs listed there is
> stale. I know that at least some of the IDEs there have more recent
> releases: e.g. the current Komodo 11.0.2 release was built in 2017, but
> is listed as "Updated 2012" on that page.
>
> I'm a developer who's new to Python, and am researching/evaluating
> different IDEs for my own use. I'd like to update your
> IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments page with current Updated dates as I
> do my research into these IDEs. (And I plan to hit all the IDEs you have
> in your list.)
>
> I'm assuming that the "Updated" column means "last time this IDE program
> was updated/released", and not "last time the Python.org wiki page for
> this program was updated".
>
> If you're amenable, I'd also like to suggest maybe adding a "Version"
> column to the tables on this page. The release date for these IDEs isn't
> readily visible on all of their web pages, but the program version
> number pops up more often. This would make it easier for both readers
> and editors to determine if this wiki page is in fact up to date with
> respect to an IDE's last release date. (Or maybe it would make sense to
> have a "this page updated on XXX" statement somewhere.)
>
> I'd also like to upper-case "GUI" in the section title "IDEs with
> integrated gui builder" to be consistent with the rest of the page and
> common usage.
>
> If you need some background, you can find me at:
> https://apjanke.net/
> https://github.com/apjanke
>
> Cheers,
> Andrew Janke
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edit Access

[Steve Holden]

OK Nina, you should be good to go now.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 3:05 AM, Nina Zakharenko 
wrote:

> My username is NinaZakharenko and I'd like to request edit access to the
> 2018 candidacy page (https://wiki.python.org/moin/
> PythonSoftwareFoundation/BoardCandidates2018) so that I can add myself as
> a candidate.
>
> Thanks,
> Nina
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] what should we tell people having trouble with wiki / board submissions

[Steve Holden]

I'd be perfectly happy to offer that service too.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 8:36 PM, Naomi Ceder  wrote:

> You can tell them that if it comes down to the wire, someone will enter
> their candidacy for them. I've done it in the past, I'll do it again if
> needed.
>
> Just please, let's define "down to the wire" (for me, anyway) as before 10
> PM CDT. on the 25th. :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Naomi
>
> On Tue, 22 May 2018 at 14:23, Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>
>>
>> seems there are a couple of people it's being difficult to get going to
>> add their candidacy, and at least one of them is nervous about the
>> approaching submission deadline.  do we have something we can tell these
>> folks if the time gets even tighter?  "try another WikiName"? small
>> extension if enabling editing proved problematic?
>>
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>
>
> --
> Naomi Ceder
>
> @NaomiCeder • https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomiceder/
> https://www.manning.com/books/the-quick-python-book-third-edition
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] EDITING THE PSF BOARD ELECTION NOMINEES PAGE

[Steve Holden]

Sorry about that - I've changed the login name to "Cleopatra Douglas". Hope
this does it.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 2:51 PM, CLEOPATRA DOUGLAS <
douglascleopa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This didn't work
>
> Warm Regards.
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Steve Holden 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi there!
>>
>> I've added username "CleopatraDouglas" because usernames have to be
>> WikiWords, so I assumed that is the form your account name will take.
>>
>> Let me know if this doesn't work for you - and thanks for caring enough
>> to want to stand for the Board!
>>
>> regards
>>  Steve
>>
>> Steve Holden
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 12:21 PM, CLEOPATRA DOUGLAS <
>> douglascleopa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Hope this mail meets you well.
>>>
>>> I just registered on the PSF wiki page and would like to edit the
>>> Nominee section to include my name.
>>>
>>> My account name is Cleopatra Douglas
>>>
>>>
>>> warm Regards.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] EDITING THE PSF BOARD ELECTION NOMINEES PAGE

[Steve Holden]

Hi there!

I've added username "CleopatraDouglas" because usernames have to be
WikiWords, so I assumed that is the form your account name will take.

Let me know if this doesn't work for you - and thanks for caring enough to
want to stand for the Board!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 12:21 PM, CLEOPATRA DOUGLAS <
douglascleopa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Hope this mail meets you well.
>
> I just registered on the PSF wiki page and would like to edit the Nominee
> section to include my name.
>
> My account name is Cleopatra Douglas
>
>
> warm Regards.
>
>
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Access to BoardCandidates2018 plz

[Steve Holden]

Hi Jeff,

Since Wiki names are usually in WikiWord format I have added "JeffTriplett"
to the editors list. Please let me know if this doesn't work for you.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Jeff Triplett 
wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I was recently nominated to https://wiki.python.org/
> moin/PythonSoftwareFoundation/BoardCandidates2018#jeff-triplett and was
> told to email this list so that I may update my goals and involvement.
>
> If you could help me with that, I'd appreciate it. My user name appears to
> be "Jeff Triplett" and my email is the same as I'm emailing you from. Thank
> you in advance.
> Warm regards,
>
> Jeff Triplett
>
> ---
> DjangoCon US / DEFNA / Revsys
> Organizer / President / Developer
> https://calendly.com/jeff-triplett
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Trying to edit board of directors

[Steve Holden]

Hi Maricella,

Thanks for caring! You should be good to go now. Good luck in the election.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 5:25 PM, Maricela Sanchez Miranda <
mayela0...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm trying edit my nomination for board but I don't have writing
> permissions on the wiki. Can you help me? My data is:
>
> -name: MaricelaSanchezMiranda
> - alias: mayela
> -email: mayela0...@gmail.com
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Maricela
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Normalisation of unicode and keywords

[Steve Holden]

It's a canonicalisation error.

Steve Holden

On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> On 18.05.2018 14:46, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Stephan Houben noticed that Python apparently allows identifiers to be
>> keywords, if you use Unicode "mathematical bold" letters. His
>> explanation is that the identifier is normalised, but not until after
>> keywords are checked for. So this works:
>>
>> class Spam:
>>  locals()['if'] = 1
>>
>>
>> Spam.𝐢𝐟# U+1D422 U+1D41F
>> # returns 1
>>
>>
>> Of course Spam.if fails with SyntaxError.
>>
>> Should this work? Is this a bug, a feature, or an accident of
>> implementation we can ignore?
>>
> Voting for bug:
> Either those identifiers should be considered equal, or they shouldn't.
> They can't be considered "partially" equal.
>
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Regards,
> Ivan
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] [Webmaster] Possible virus in Win32 build of python?

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 5:26 AM, Ryan Saunders 
wrote:

> Hello webmaster,
>
>
>
> A little over a week ago, I got hit by a rather nasty virus…one of those
> “ransomware” viruses that encrypts everything on your disk and then demands
> bitcoin payment in exchange for the decryption key. Yuck.
>
>
>
> One potential way in which this virus might have gotten onto my system is
> via a version of Python I downloaded, as I was working on a script to
> auto-download Python around that time. It’s a bit difficult to be sure,
> since (a) my antivirus (Windows Defender) didn’t notice the virus at all
> and (b) most files on my HDD are now hopelessly encrypted, including the
> copies of Python I downloaded, which makes postmortem analysis…difficult.
>
>
>
> I plan to do some more investigation to try to determine exactly how I got
> this bug, but I thought it prudent to bring this to your attention quickly,
> just in case Python actually *was* the infection vector, so that you can
> remove any infected files from your download site.
>
>
>
> If I recall correctly, the versions of Python that I was working with were
> the following:
>
>- https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.7.0/python-3.7.0b4-amd64.exe
>- https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.7.0/python-3.7.0b4-
>embed-amd64.zip
>- https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.7.0/python-3.7.0b3-amd64.exe
>- https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.7.0/python-3.7.0b3-
>embed-amd64.zip
>- https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.6.5/python-3.6.5-amd64.exe
>- https://www.python.org/ftp/python/3.6.5/python-3.6.5-embed-amd64.zip
>
>
>
> The virus is the “Arrow” virus, which most antivirus sites identify as a
> variant of the “dharma/crysys” family of malware. Unfortunately, Windows
> Defender did not catch it, so I’m not sure what AV tools to recommend. But
> I do suggest scanning the above files with whatever AV tools are at your
> disposal, just to be on the safe side, so that no one else contracts this
> thing.
>
>
>
> If I am later able to determine conclusively the source of my infection, I
> will let you know.
>
>
>
> Ryan
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
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> Hi Ryan,

Thanks for your note, and I'm sorry to hear that you have fallen victim to
malware.

I suspect the probability of a virus in the official installer
distributions is very low. I understand that the release process for
Windows does involve anti-virus scans, and I am not personally aware of
even any false positives on 3.6.

Since 3.7.0 is a pre-release I am notifying the developers list as a
precaution. You will hear from them if they require any further information.

Good luck restoring your system.

regards
 Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 554 - strange random boldface

[Steve Holden]

On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 4:57 PM, Serhiy Storchaka 
wrote:

> 12.05.18 17:48, Steve Holden пише:
>
>> It's certainly true that when I split any of those left-hand cells the
>> bizarre emphasis occurs. Still looking for a workaround.
>>
>
> Remove an extra indentation of the second line.
>
>
​That's nailed it, thanks!​
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 554 - strange random boldface

[Steve Holden]

It's certainly true that when I split any of those left-hand cells the
bizarre emphasis occurs. Still looking for a workaround.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> On Sat, 12 May 2018 15:20:11 +0100
> Steve Holden  wrote:
> > Does anyone know why some lines in the tables of
> > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0554/ appear in bold when the markup
> > doesn't seem to call for it? I can't find a way to stop this, and it's
> > bugging me!
>
> Apparently this may have to do with the given table cells being laid out
> in multiple lines?
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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[Python-Dev] PEP 554 - strange random boldface

[Steve Holden]

Does anyone know why some lines in the tables of
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0554/ appear in bold when the markup
doesn't seem to call for it? I can't find a way to stop this, and it's
bugging me!

regards
​ ​
Steve
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Request Edit Permissions

[Steve Holden]

On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Steve - Gadget Barnes <
gadgetst...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I agree that since it is a closed group there are some inherent
> limitations but how about:
>
> a) The fact that company python user groups exist &
>

​That is certainly worth sharing.
​

> b) possibly some examples of companies that have one
>

​I have heard that both Boeing and NASA have, or have had, groups actively
promoting Python's use.
​

> c) the rational for having one
>

​The benefits that you have experienced might we be of broad enough
interest to ​merit a blog post, if you'd like me to introduce you to
someone on that team.

d) some hints & tips on setting up & hosting one within the readers company.
>
>
​All excellent thoughts!
​

> I know that a, b & c would have been useful to us & d probably still
> would be.
>
> Additionally, publicising that such groups exist might open the
> possibility of having guest "speakers" from outside of the company.
>
>
​Such schemes can take a little managing, but mostly it's all about
communication. With luck the rights Chris has already given you include the
ablility to create new pages. I'll be interested to see what you can come
up with.
​

> Looking forward to any feedback.
>
> ​We're always very grateful for approaches from engaged, involved
community members, and try to encourage them as much as we can. I hope this
has been of assistance. Good luck!

regards
 Steve
​


> Steve
>
> On 05/05/2018 18:51, Steve Holden wrote:
> > I'd have though some GE intranet site might have been more appropriate,
> > but I suppose it would be publicising Python's popularity ... S
> >
> > Steve Holden
> >
> > On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Chris Angelico  > <mailto:ros...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Steve - Gadget Barnes
> > mailto:gadgetst...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > My user name is SteveBarnes & I would specifically like to be able
> to
> > > edit the Local User Groups page (to add pyDiff
> http://www.pydiff.wales/
> > > and Python DBBUG (https://www.meetup.com/python-dbbug/
> > <https://www.meetup.com/python-dbbug/>) and correcting
> > > the year of the 2018 Europython (on
> > > https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython
> > <https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython> it is shown as occurring
> > in 2017).
> >
> > No problem, go for it.
> >
> > > I am also wondering if there is any interest in mentioning company
> > > (internal) python user groups? Such groups don't exactly fit into
> the
> > > "Local" user groups categories but are probably well worth
> mentioning.
> > > Some hints & tips for such groups would also be a valuable
> resource. (I
> > > am an organiser of such a group within GE so have both some
> experience
> > > and a vested interest).
> >
> > Hmm, I'm not sure how useful that would be. If the group is closed in
> > nature (only people in your company can attend your company's group
> > meeting), it would be more appropriate to publicize it only within
> the
> > company. Others may disagree, though, and I'm not authoritative here.
> > (If it's open to everyone while still being held on company grounds
> > and/or sponsored by the company, that's different, of course.)
> >
> > ChrisA
> > ___
> > pydotorg-www mailing list
> > pydotorg-www@python.org <mailto:pydotorg-www@python.org>
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> > <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Steve (Gadget) Barnes
> Any opinions in this message are my personal opinions and do not reflect
> those of my employer.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Request Edit Permissions

[Steve Holden]

I'd have though some GE intranet site might have been more appropriate, but
I suppose it would be publicising Python's popularity ... S

Steve Holden

On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Steve - Gadget Barnes
>  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > My user name is SteveBarnes & I would specifically like to be able to
> > edit the Local User Groups page (to add pyDiff http://www.pydiff.wales/
> > and Python DBBUG (https://www.meetup.com/python-dbbug/) and correcting
> > the year of the 2018 Europython (on
> > https://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython it is shown as occurring in
> 2017).
>
> No problem, go for it.
>
> > I am also wondering if there is any interest in mentioning company
> > (internal) python user groups? Such groups don't exactly fit into the
> > "Local" user groups categories but are probably well worth mentioning.
> > Some hints & tips for such groups would also be a valuable resource. (I
> > am an organiser of such a group within GE so have both some experience
> > and a vested interest).
>
> Hmm, I'm not sure how useful that would be. If the group is closed in
> nature (only people in your company can attend your company's group
> meeting), it would be more appropriate to publicize it only within the
> company. Others may disagree, though, and I'm not authoritative here.
> (If it's open to everyone while still being held on company grounds
> and/or sponsored by the company, that's different, of course.)
>
> ChrisA
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Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email (was: Drop/deprecate Tkinter?)

[Steve Holden]

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 06:31:03PM +, Brett Cannon wrote:
>
> > No one is saying people can't be upset and if you are ever upset there's
> > something wrong; we're human beings after all. But those of us speaking
> up
> > about the tone are saying that you can also wait until you're not so
> upset
> > to write an email. This was never going to be resolved in an hour, so
> > waiting an hour until you're in a better place to write an email that
> > wasn't quite so inflammatory seems like a reasonable thing to ask.
>
> Certainly!
>
> I'm not defending Ivan's initial email. His tantrum *was* annoying,
> unreasonable, and unfair to those who do care about tkinter. He could
> have done better.
>
> But *we* should be better too. Our response to Ivan has not been
> welcoming, and as a community we haven't lived up to our own standards,
> as we have piled onto him to express our rightous indignation:
>
> 1. Guido responded telling Ivan to calm down and work off his
>frustration elsewhere. And that's where things should have
>stopped, unless Ivan had persisted in his impoliteness.
>
> 2. Brian upped the ante by bringing the CoC into discussion.
>
> 3. Paul raised it again by describing Ivan's post as "offensive".
>
> 4. And now, Steve H has claimed that Ivan's initial post was
>bordering on "abusive".
>
> We've gone from rightly treating Ivan's post as intemperate and
> impolite, and telling him to chill, to calling his post "offensive", to
> "abusive". (Next, I presume, someone will claim to be traumatised by
> Ivan's email.)
>
> ​I for one hold my hand up, and will simply not respond the next time I am
tempted to respond in this way. I do not wish to enter into discussion on
the semantics of abuse, neither do I want to sidetrack the list from its
intended purpose.

regards
 Steve​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

[Steve Holden]

Me neither, but I do want people to accept that there are norms, which
should usually be observed.  S

Steve Holden

On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> On Fri, 4 May 2018 08:23:19 +0100
> Steve Holden  wrote:
> >
> > ​Yup. Tolerance has to have its limits, and this came close to abusive
> > behaviour. ​
> >
> > ​I suspect others among us might have been guilty of similar behaviours
> in
> > the past I certainly couldn't cast the first stone), but times change as
> do
> > standards, and it's certainly not the tone the majority of the readers of
> > this list would want, I believe.
> >
> > Let's hope this message continues to come across loud and clear.
>
> Since Terry Reedy (the IDLE maintainer) responded and refuted (some
> of?) the OP's assertions, I guess the case is settled.
>
> But that's not the same thing as threatening a poster with some
> accusations of CoC violation, just because the poster happened to use a
> familiar expression.
>
> Personally, I don't want people to be intimidated away from contributing
> because their English expression differs from that of the dominant (or,
> rather, most vocal and/or better organized) fraction.
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Dealing with tone in an email

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 9:13 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 3 May 2018 at 12:29 Guido van Rossum  wrote:
>
>> EVENTUALLY WE'LL ALL BE SHOUTING ALL THE TIME. Sad.
>>
>
> Yep. And that leads to burn-out. So while Ivan may have lucked out in
> getting the attention of people who are helped him (and given the wrong
> kind of positive reinforcement that this approach is reasonable), this can
> lead to people quitting open source and not being available to help you
> next time (e.g. notice how it drove Paul Moore over the edge to pull back
> for a week or so and he may have been the expert you needed for packaging
> or me for imports; IOW I would say Ivan was lucky this time and may not be
> so lucky next time).
>
> -Brett
>
>

​Yup. Tolerance has to have its limits, and this came close to abusive
behaviour. ​

​I suspect others among us might have been guilty of similar behaviours in
the past I certainly couldn't cast the first stone), but times change as do
standards, and it's certainly not the tone the majority of the readers of
this list would want, I believe.

Let's hope this message continues to come across loud and clear.

​regards
 Steve

​
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Re: [pydotorg-www] PyCon Balkan

[Steve Holden]

Hi Anna,

That page says
"""

If you have an event to add to this page, please write to (pydotorg-www at
python dot org). If you are organizing a Python conference or thinking of
organizing one, please subscribe to the Python conferences mailing list
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/conferences>.

If you would like to announce a Python related event, please see
https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar#Submitting_an_Event for
how to submit an event to the Python event calendars.
"""
So I am copying them in the hope that someone can help you.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:15 PM, Ana Ostojic  wrote:

> Dear Steve,
>
> I already done that, what I want to do is to be on this list:
> https://www.python.org/community/workshops/
> Can you help me?
>
> Regards, Ana
>
> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:00 PM, Steve Holden  wrote:
>
>> If you want to edit the wiki, I regret this is currently the only way. We
>> like to think of it as welcoming people to join this part of the
>> international Python community, but I appreciate the need to continually
>> create and track accounts can become burdensome.
>>
>> If you simply want to post events then you need not bother with a wiki
>> account, as detailed in the page to which I believe I sent you a link -
>> """
>> Submitting an Event
>>
>> If you would like to get new events listed on these calendars, please
>> write to eve...@python.org using the following email template:
>>
>> Please add the following event: * name of the event:  * type of event:  * 
>> focus on Python:  * approximate number of attendees:  * location (incl. 
>> country):  * dates/times/recurrence (incl. time zone):  * link (in HTML 
>> format): http://url/";>name of the event
>>
>> Please mention:
>>
>>- the name of the event (including the user group name for user group
>>events)
>>- type of event (conference, bar camp, sprint, user group meeting,
>>etc.)
>>- focus on Python and approximate size (number of attendees)
>>-
>>
>>the location (venue address, including city and *country*)
>>- the dates/times (including the time zone)
>>-
>>
>>a link with more details for the event (using HTML format "http://url/";>name of the event")
>>
>> For recurring events, please also include the recurrence information,
>> e.g. "monthly, every second Thursday".
>>
>> *Notes:*
>>
>> For online events, please use "Online Event" as location.
>>
>> For *trainings, courses, webinars and similar type of events*, please
>> post your event on the PythonTraining
>> <https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonTraining> page. We currently do not
>> have a calendar for these.
>>
>> [image: /!\] Please leave *at least two weeks notice* when submitting
>> events. The calendar team is volunteer driven. While we try to add new
>> events swiftly, we cannot guarantee response times.
>> """
>>
>> regards
>>  Steve
>>
>> Steve Holden
>>
>> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Ana Ostojic  wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have wiki editing account, do I really need one?
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 1:12 PM, Steve Holden 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ​Please see https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar for
>>>> details of how to get an event listed on that calendar.
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>  Steve​
>>>>
>>>> Steve Holden
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Chris Angelico 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Ana Ostojic  wrote:
>>>>> > Dear Sir or Madam,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I would like to get an upcoming event listed on your list
>>>>> ''Conferences and
>>>>> > workshops'', we are already on your Python events calendar as PyCon
>>>>> Balkan.
>>>>> > If I need to deliver you more informations, please write to me.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Kind regards,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Ana
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a Wiki editing account?
>>>>>
>>>>> ChrisA
>>>>> ___
>>>>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>>>>> pydotorg-www@python.org
>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Ivan Pozdeev via Python-Dev <
python-dev@python.org> wrote:

> On 03.05.2018 1:01, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
>> Paul Moore  wrote:
>>
>>> On 2 May 2018 at 22:37, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:
>>>
 To elaborate a bit: the OP, while angry, produced both a detailed
 analysis *and* a PR.  It's normal to be angry when an advertised
 feature doesn't work and it makes you lose hours of work (or, even,
 forces you to a wholesale redesign). Producing a detailed analysis and a
 PR is more than most people will ever do.

>>> His *other* email seems reasonable, and warrants a response, yes. But
>>> are we to take the suggestion made here (to drop tkinter) seriously,
>>> based on the fact that there's a (rare - at least it appears that the
>>> many IDLE users haven't hit it yet) race condition that causes a crash
>>> in Python 2.7? (It appears that the problem doesn't happen in the
>>> python.org 3.x builds, if I understand the description of the issue).
>>>
>> In 3.x, Tkinter+threads is broken too, albeit in a different way -- see
> https://bugs.python.org/issue33412 (this should've been the 2nd link in
> the initial message, sorry for the mix-up).
>

​The observation in t​hat issue that tkinter and threads should be handled
in specific ways is certainly a given for old hands, who have long put the
GUI code in one thread with one or more concurrent worker threads typically
communicating through queues. But I haven't built anything like that
recently, so I couldn't say how helpful the current documenation might be.

The 2.x bug also shows in 3.x if it's linked with a nonthreaded version of
> Tcl (dunno how rare that is, but the code still supports this setup).
>
>> I and others actually suggested it seriously in the past.  Now,
>> admittedly, at least IDLE seems better maintained than it used to
>> be -- not sure about Tkinter itself.
>>
>> Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
>>> of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
>>> volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
>>> constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
>>> think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
>>> reasonable.
>>>
>> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
>> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
>> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
>> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
>> apparently it can be offensive.
>>
> Confirm, never meant this as an insult.
>
> I had to use emotional language to drive the point home that it's not some
> nitpick, it really causes people serious trouble (I lost a source of
> income, for the record).
> Without the emotional impact, my message could easily be ignored as some
> noise not worth attention. This time, it's just too damn important to allow
> this possibility.
>
> With respect, I would say you CHOSE to use emotional language. I don't see
that much indication that its absence had failed to produce responses,
though they may not have been the responses you wanted.

Unfortunately the developers are rather too used to this kind of gratuitous
abuse and so many of them may have overlooked your detailed analysis of the
issues you were experiencing, since constructive contributions don't
normally accompany such rants.

The module being abandoned and unused is truly the only explanation I could
> think of when seeing that glaring bugs have stayed unfixed for 15 years (an
> infinity in IT), in an actively developed and highly used software.
> This may be flattering for my ego, but if the module really is in any
> production use to speak of, then in all these years, with all this
> humongous user base, someone, somewhere in the world, at some point, should
> have looked into this. I don't even program in C professionally, yet was
> able to diagnose it and make a PR!
>
> ​I think the fact that alarm bells haven't clanged is likely a product of
​tkinter's relatively small user base, perhaps amplified by dwindling
availability of "GYU in one thread" lore. Anyway they have certainly
clanged now.

---
>
> I'll make a PR with the doc warning as Guido suggested unless there are
> any better ideas.
>
> ​In the absence of other actions this would be a good first step. Thank
you.
​


> Meanwhile, I'd really appreciate any response to my other message -- it is
> about actually fixing the issue, and I do need feedback to be able to
> proceed.
> No need to delve all the way in and give an official authorization or
> something. I'm only looking for an opinion poll on which redesign option
> (if any) looks like the most reasonable way to proceed and/or in line with
> the big picture (the last one -- to provide a unifying vision -- is _the_
> job of a BDFL IIRC).
>

​I wouldn't presume to tell Guido his job, give

Re: [pydotorg-www] PyCon CZ to add to Python Conferences

[Steve Holden]

Hi Anezka,

I'm sure we' d love to have your listings. Would you mind visiting
https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar for details of how to
submit?

regards
 Steve



Steve Holden

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 1:02 PM, Anežka Müller 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to ask to add PyCon CZ (https://cz.pycon.org/2018/) to
> https://www.python.org/community/workshops/ if possible.
> We already have it listed on the calendar: https://www.python.o
> rg/events/python-events but we would like to ask if it's possible to put
> it on the list of conferences as well.
> This year will be already the 4th year of PyCon CZ, the videos from 2016
> and 2017 can be found here: http://pyvideo.org/events.html
>
> Please let me know if I can provide you with more information.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Anezka
>
> Anezka Muller
> anezka.mul...@gmail.com
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions

[Steve Holden]

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 3:36 AM, Chris Jerdonek 
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:33 AM, Sven R. Kunze  wrote:
> > On 25.04.2018 01:19, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >>
> >> Sorry, gcd(diff, n) is not the "perfect name", and I will tell you that
> >> sometimes g is better. [...]
> >
> > We were talking about the real-world code snippet of Tim (as a
> justification
> > of := ) and alternative rewritings of it without resorting to new syntax.
>
> Apologies if this idea has already been discussed (I might have missed
> the relevant email), but thinking back to Tim's earlier example--
>
> if (diff := x - x_base) and (g := gcd(diff, n)) > 1:
> return g
>
> it occurs to me this could be implemented with current syntax using a
> pattern like the following:
>
> stashed = [None]
>
> def stash(x):
> stashed[0] = x
> return x
>
> if stash(x - x_base) and stash(gcd(stashed[0], n)) > 1:
> return stashed[0]
>
> There are many variations to this idea, obviously. For example, one
> could allow passing a "name" to stash(), or combine stash / stashed
> into a single, callable object that allows setting and reading from
> its store. I wonder if one of them could be made into a worthwhile
> pattern or API..
> ​.
>

​I hope you don't think this recasting, is in any way less confusing to a
beginner than an inline assignment. This is language abuse!

In any case, what advantages would it have over simply declaring "stashed"
as a global inside the function and omitting the confusing subscripting?

regards
 Steve​
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Re: [pydotorg-www] PyCon Balkan

[Steve Holden]

​Please see https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonEventsCalendar for details
of how to get an event listed on that calendar.

regards
 Steve​

Steve Holden

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 11:36 AM, Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 7:10 PM, Ana Ostojic  wrote:
> > Dear Sir or Madam,
> >
> > I would like to get an upcoming event listed on your list ''Conferences
> and
> > workshops'', we are already on your Python events calendar as PyCon
> Balkan.
> > If I need to deliver you more informations, please write to me.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Ana
>
> Do you have a Wiki editing account?
>
> ChrisA
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Re: [pydotorg-www] (no subject)

[Steve Holden]

Sorry - premature send.

Steve Holden

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Steve Holden  wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> Go ahead - your account should now have edit-privileges.
>
> regards
>  Steve
>
> PS: One of the minor mysteries of life is how the pydotorg-www email
> address became associat
> ​ed with the name "Food". Answers on a postcard.​
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] (no subject)

[Steve Holden]

Hi Paul,

Go ahead - your account should now have edit-privileges.

regards
 Steve

PS: One of the minor mysteries of life is how the pydotorg-www email
address became associat

Steve Holden

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 3:39 PM, Paul Worrall  wrote:

> Hello,
> My user name on the Python Wiki is PaulWorrall
>
> I just wanted to do a minor edit to the Integrated Development
> Environments page:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
>
> to correct the 'Updated' date for KDevelop
>
> Would it be OK to add me to the Editors Group?
>
> Regards
> --
> Paul
> --
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] (name := expression) doesn't fit the narrative of PEP 20

[Steve Holden]

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 8:19 PM, Tim Peters  wrote:

> [Lukasz]
> >> >  And that *is* a thing that you will have to explain to newbies when
> >> > they encounter it for the first time.
>
> ​Which they will presumably do either in class or by reading code. No
sensible instructor or course author is going to bring name-binding
expressions up until standard assignment has been thoroughly assimilated.
In my own teaching experience I observed that those used to static
languages took a little time to adapt to the indirection of Python's names,
but not long.
​


> ​[...]
>
> Sure.  What I wrote was shorthand for what's already been covered at
> length many times:  what a binding expression does is "easy to
> explain" GIVEN THAT someone ALREADY UNDERSTANDS how binding a name
> works.  The latter in fact seems difficult for a significant number of
> people to learn, but it's utterly unavoidable that they learn it if
> they're ever to write non-trivial Python programs.  That's been true
> since Python's first release.
>
> ​I was half-expecting someone to pop up and suggest only functional
programming as a means to avoid having to teach assignment ...
​


> Binding expressions would be introduced much later in any sane course.
> At THAT point, for students who haven't already dropped out, the
> semantics are darned-near trivial to explain:  it binds the name to
> the object the expression evaluates to (all of which they _already_
> understand by this point), and the value of the binding expression is
> that object (the only new bit).
>
> Unlike as for most other operators, you don't even have to weasel-word
> it to account for that a magical dunder method may change what ":="
> does.  As for the "is" operator, the meaning is baked into the
> language and can't be altered in the slightest.
>
>
> > So having one more way to do assignment WILL make it harder to
> > teach, not because it's that hard, but because it's one more thing to
> learn.
>
> ​But surely that depends on HOW MUCH of the language you aim to teach.
​Over the years Python has become a much more complex language, but it has
a fairly easily-identified subset that can act as a basis for building
useful programs. Some instructors avoided teaching comprehensions, but a
sensible course would try to ensure that students could understand the code
they were most likely to encounter "in the wild."

[
> ​...]
>
> You now, I think instructors like me are partly responsible. "is" is
> rarely
> > useful outside of comparing to singletons. Yet I use it early in
> instruction
> > to do checks on name binding and show things with mutablilty, etc
> which
> > has the unfortunate side effect of making it seem like a more common
> > operator than it is.
> >
>
​I'd expand that to say that identity comparison is most useful for types
whose instances are all unique. For other types there's the unfortunate
impedance mismatch between identity and equality (which is user-definable
anyway).
​


> > I've even had students write code like:
> >
> > if x is 3:
> >
> > and thanks to interning, it appears to work!
>
> ​No, thanks to interning it DOES work. For interned values.​

​But instructors have to touch on implementation artefacts at times, and I
used to find it instructive to write the same code with two different
integer constants and ask why they gave different results. It certainly
helped people to master the semantics of assignment (as did the phrase
"Python never copies data on assignment").​

Yup, that's the real problem with "is":  its semantics are dead
> simple, but "but under exactly what conditions are `x` and `y` bound
> to the same object?" is intractable.  It seems to take a long time to
> get across the point, that the question itself is misguided.  A full
> answer requires delving into transient implementation details, which
> is counterproductive because they _are_ accidents of the
> implementation du jour.  What questioners need to be nudged into
> asking instead is for examples of when using "is" is thoroughly sane.
>

​I'd argue that without some knowledge of the potential pitfalls students
can't be expected to learn how to make that distinction.

regards
 Steve
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edit rights, account KnownHost

[Steve Holden]

You should be good to go now. Thanks for caring!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Daniel Pearson 
wrote:

> Apologies, it should be "KnownHost"
>
> Thanks~
>
>
> On 04/26/2018 02:15 PM, Steve Holden wrote:
>
> Hi Daniel,
>
> We'll be happy to do so, just as soon as we know what your Wiki account
> name is. (NB: This is different to any python.org account you may have
> opened).
>
> regards
>  Steve
>
> Steve Holden
>
> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Daniel Pearson 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We would like to update this page https://wiki.python.org/moin/S
>> pecializedCommercialHosts to ensure it reflects accurate information and
>> add ourselves to the list as well. Seems quite a few of the companies
>> listed are no longer in business.
>>
>> If you would be so kind to to provide edit rights I would appreciate it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely
>> Daniel C Pearson
>> COO KnownHost, LLC
>> https://www.knownhost.com
>>
>> ___
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>
>
> --
> Sincerely
> Daniel C Pearson
> COO KnownHost, LLChttps://www.knownhost.com
>
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edit rights, account KnownHost

[Steve Holden]

Hi Daniel,

We'll be happy to do so, just as soon as we know what your Wiki account
name is. (NB: This is different to any python.org account you may have
opened).

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 5:43 PM, Daniel Pearson 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> We would like to update this page https://wiki.python.org/moin/S
> pecializedCommercialHosts to ensure it reflects accurate information and
> add ourselves to the list as well. Seems quite a few of the companies
> listed are no longer in business.
>
> If you would be so kind to to provide edit rights I would appreciate it.
>
>
> --
> Sincerely
> Daniel C Pearson
> COO KnownHost, LLC
> https://www.knownhost.com
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] (name := expression) doesn't fit the narrative of PEP 20

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 8:56 AM, Steven D'Aprano 
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 03:31:13AM -0400, Terry Reedy wrote:
> > On 4/25/2018 8:20 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > >On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Yury Selivanov
> > > wrote:
> > >>Just yesterday this snippet was used on python-dev to show how great
> the
> > >>new syntax is:
> > >>
> > >>   my_func(arg, buffer=(buf := [None]*get_size()),
> size=len(buf))
> >
> > What strikes me as awful about this example is that len(buf) is
> > get_size(), so the wrong value is being named and saved.
> > 'size=len(buf)' is, in a sense, backwards.
>
> Terry is absolutely right, and I'm to blame for that atrocity. Mea
> culpa.
>
> ​Perhaps a better spelling would be

my_func(arg, buffer=[None]*(buflen := get_size()), size=buflen)

​[...]
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Re: [Python-Dev] (name := expression) doesn't fit the narrative of PEP 20

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 9:55 PM, Łukasz Langa  wrote:

>
> > On 25 Apr, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> >
> > You don't seem to grasp the usability improvements this will give. I
> hear you but at this point appeals to Python's "Zen" don't help you.
>
> This reads dismissive to me. I did read the PEP and followed the
> discussion on
> python-dev. I referred to PEP 20 because it distills what's unique about
> the
> value proposition of Python. It's our shared vocabulary.
>
> ​Perhaps so, but no PEP is chiselled in stone, and I would suggest that
PEP 20 is the least authoritative from a didactic point of view.
​


> Can you address the specific criticism I had? To paraphrase it without PEP
> 20
> jargon:
>
> > (name := expression) makes code less uniform.  It inserts more
> information
> > into a place that is already heavily packed with information (logic
> tests).
>
>
​One could argue the same about list comprehensions if one chose: they make
code denser (by expressing the same algorithm in a shorter spelling). I'm
not sure what you mean by "less uniform."​
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Write vs Read, Understand and Control Flow

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 4:56 AM, Tim Peters  wrote:

> [Tim]
> >> Binding expressions are debugger-friendly in that they _don't_ just
> >> vanish without a trace.  It's their purpose to _capture_ the values of
> >> the expressions they name.  Indeed, you may want to add them all over
> >> the place inside expressions, never intending to use the names, just
> >> so that you can see otherwise-ephemeral intra-expression results in
> >> your debugger ;-)
>
>
> [Steven D'Aprano ]
>  wrote:
> > That's a fantastic point and I'm surprised nobody has thought of it
> > until now (that I've seen).
> >
> > Chris, if you're still reading this and aren't yet heartedly sick and
> > tired of the PEP *wink* this ought to go in as another motivating point.
>
> You know, I thought I was joking when I wrote that - but after I sent
> it I realized I wasn't ;-)
>
> ​You just don't realise how perspicacious you truly are, Tim!
​


> It would actually be quite convenient, and far less error-prone, to
> add a binding construct inside a complicated expression for purposes
> of running under a debugger.  The alternative is typing the
> sub-expression(s) of interest by hand at the debugger prompt, or
> adding print()s, both of which are prone to introducing typos, or
> changing results radically due to triggering side effects in the code
> invoked by the duplicated sub-expression(s).  Adding a binding
> construct wouldn't change anything about how the code worked (apart
> from possibly clobbering a local name).


​Indeed, in the cases where I currently find myself unwrapping expressions
to capture their values in local variables for debugging purposes it would
usually be far less intrusive to bind a name to the expression inline, then
use the debugger to inspect the value.
​
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Re: [Python-Dev] assignment expressions: an alternative alternative proposal

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 6:16 AM, Steven D'Aprano 
wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 03:54:30PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> > We should really take this back to python-ideas at this point.
>
> Please no :-(
>

​+1
​
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 6:15 AM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

> On 25 April 2018 at 13:56, Guido van Rossum  wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Nick Coghlan 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I also think it would be good for the PEP to spell out the following
> >> semantic invariant for code running in a regular namespace:
> >>
> >> _rhs = expr
> >> assert (target := _rhs) is _rhs and target is _rhs
> >>
> >> It's the restriction to single names as targets that makes it possible
> >> to impose such a strong assertion about what the syntax means.
> >
> > Can you elaborate? I don't understand what you mean by this.
>
> The assertion is just spelling out in code form that given the name
> binding expression "target := expr", then:
>
> 1. the result of the expression itself is "expr", exactly as if the
> name binding was omitted
> 2. that result is also bound to the name "target" in the current scope
>
> The preceding "_rhs = expr" line is included to make the invariant
> generalise even to expressions that have side effects or can change
> their output based on mutable system state.
>
> Ironically, that may be clearer if I use another assignment statement
> to break it out as two separate invariants:
>
> _rhs = expr
> _inline_result = (bound_name := _rhs)
> assert _inline_result is _rhs
> assert bound_name is _rhs
>
> By contrast, the protocols involved in handling more complex
> assignment targets and in handling augmented assignment mean that it
> wouldn't be possible to define a similarly simple invariant of what
> they mean (since the exact runtime behaviour would be both type and
> target dependent).
>
>
​While it's handy that one _could_ use any valid assignment target,
allowing this wouldn't (IMHO) necessarily be a good idea.
Binding/assignment expressions fit well into Python's semantics (where
bindings copy references rather than data) precisely because names are
effectively and straightforwardly shorthand for values at the point of
assignment.

Restricting the targets in

target := expression

to simple names would avoid a lot of the tricksiness that less experienced
programmers might be tempter to indulge, leading to simpler code without
undue restrictions on what can be done.

The PEP is currently somewhat confused on naming, since it is entitled
"Assignment Expressions" but appears to then exclusively use the name
"named expressions" to reference the concept under "Syntax and Semantics"
and "assignment expression" elsewhere. I'd prefer the term "name binding
expressions," since that implies the stricture that more complex targets
are excluded. Whatever is chosen, usage in the PEP should be consistent.

regards
 Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions

[Steve Holden]

What facilities does the interpreter currently have for extracting common
subexpressions, and how would it verify in such a dynamic environment that
such extractions wouldn't alter the semantics of the program? Explicit
(assignment using :=) is better than implicit (by optimizations hidden to
the programmer).

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Sven R. Kunze  wrote:

> On 23.04.2018 17:59, Steve Holden wrote:
>
>
> While Tim's expression might look (superficially) like C, the five-line
> alternative isn't exactly an inspiring example of Pythonicity, is it?
>
>
> What about
>
> diff = x - x_base
> if diff and gcd(diff, n) > 1:
> return gcd(diff, n)
>
> # or
>
> if (x - x_base) and gcd(x - x_base, n) > 1:
> return gcd(x - x_base, n)
>
>
>
> and have the interpreter handle the optimization, or apply an lru_cache?
> ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Sven
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 572: Assignment Expressions

[Steve Holden]

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 8:28 AM, Antoine Pitrou  wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 00:44:44 -0500
> Tim Peters  wrote:
> ​[...]
>
> > if (diff := x - x_base) and (g := gcd(diff, n)) > 1:
> > return g
> > That's so Pythonic I could cry ;-)
>
> ​[...]
>
> The second part, especially, where you use the result of an
> assignment expression as a comparison operand, looks definitely
> un-Pythonic.
>
> ​Which, I suppose, underlines that Pythonicity is in the mind of the
beholder.​


The assignment expression seems like a vary natural way to introduce
variables of limited (controlled?) scope, and the class-namespace special
case doesn't seem horrible enough to put me, at least, off the idea. There
will, of course, be those who abuse assignment expressions, and I'm very
much looking forward to seeing what David Beazley makes of them.

While Tim's expression might look (superficially) like C, the five-line
alternative isn't exactly an inspiring example of Pythonicity, is it?

regards
 Steve
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Editing

[Steve Holden]

Rats! That's twice today 've been beaten to the punch!

Steve Holden

On Wed, Apr 4, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Ned Deily  wrote:

> Please add NedDeily to the EditorsGroup.  One of these days I am going to
> want to add / edit something and I'd like to be prepared.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Ned
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edit LocalUserGroups wiki page

[Steve Holden]

Hi Santos,

Thanks for your note. It's wonderful to hear that local user groups are
flourishing in Ecuador.

I've added you to the editors group: please feel free to edit.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 6:27 PM, Santos Gallegos 
wrote:

> Hi, I would like to edit the LocalUserGroups wiki page to add my local
> group. Python Ecuador and Python Cuenca. Those are our groups on internet:
>
> - Python Ecuador (Python group of Ecuador)
> - Telegram group: https://t.me/pythonecuador
> - Meetup:https://www.meetup.com/es/python-ecuador/
> - GitHub: https://github.com/pythonecuador
>
> - Python Cuenca (Python group of Cuenca, Ecuador)
> - Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pythoncuenca/
> - Twitter page: https://twitter.com/pythoncuenca
>
> My account name is SantosGallegos
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Better support for consuming vendored packages

[Steve Holden]

On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:

> On 23 March 2018 at 02:58, Gregory Szorc  wrote:
>
>> I'd like to start a discussion around practices for vendoring package
>> dependencies. I'm not sure python-dev is the appropriate venue for this
>> discussion. If not, please point me to one and I'll gladly take it there.
>>
>>
> ​[...]​
>
> If it's the main application doing the vendoring, then the following kind
> of snippet can be helpful:
>
> from knights.vendored import shrubbery
> import sys
> sys.path["shrubbery"] = shrubbery
>
> ​I suspect you meant
>

​sys.modules["shrubbery"]​ = shrubbery
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Re: [Python-Dev] Deprecating float.is_integer()

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> I searched 6M LoC of Python code at Dropbox and found only three uses.
> They seem legit. Two are about formatting a number that's given as a float,
> deciding whether to print a float as 42 or 3.14. The third is attempting a
> conversion from float to integer where a non-integer must raise a specific
> exception (the same function also supports a string as long as it can be
> parsed as an int).
>
> I don't doubt we would get by if is_integer() was deprecated.
>
> ​Since code that's been deleted can't have bugs, +1.​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.7 -- bugfix or security before EOL?

[Steve Holden]

Speaking from the sidelines, I'd say that any further backporting of
non-security fixes would appear to be throwing good development effort away,

This software is less than two years from the extremely well-heralded end
of its life and people are expecting enhancements? It's a cold, ungrateful
world we live in!

It might be useful to retain the issues for the benefit of those who way
wish to maintain the release after EOL, or at least get a list of them
before the tags are wiped.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:16 PM, Michael Scott Cuthbert 
wrote:

> >* it still is in the time period before
> *>* EOL that other recent versions have gone to security only.
> *
> Again, not relevant.
>
> You might want to read http://python3statement.org/. 
> <http://python3statement.org/>
>
> I’m guessing my first message was unclear or able to be misunderstood in
> some part — I’m one of the frequent contributors to python3statement.org
> and have moved my own Python projects to Py3 only (the main one, music21,
> gets its 3.4+-only release this Saturday).  I have NO desire to prolong the
> 2.7 pain.
>
> What I am referring to is the number of “needs backport to 2.7” tags for
> non-security-related bug-fixes in the issue tracker. (
> https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%
> 3Aopen+label%3A%22needs+backport+to+2.7%22
> <https://github.com/python/cpython/pulls?q=is:pr+is:open+label:%22needs+backport+to+2.7%22>)
> My question was between now and 1 Jan 2020 should we still be fixing things
> in 2.7 that we’re not fixing in 3.5, or leave 2.7 in a security-only mode
> for the next 21 months?  Looking at what has been closed recently, without
> getting a bpo for actually backporting, it appears that we’re sort of doing
> this in practice anyhow.
>
> Thanks! and even if my message was read differently than I intended, glad
> that it had a good effect.
>
> Michael Cuthbert (https://music21-mit.blogspot.com)
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edit for page on generators

[Steve Holden]

Hi AShish,

Many thanks for your interest in keeping the Python Wiki up to date. You
should find that you can now edit the content.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 5:19 AM, Ashish Deep Singh Bhatial <
ashishdeepsinghbhat...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi team,
>
> Name: *AshishSingh*
>
> I have found incorrect information on https://wiki.python.org/moin/
> Generators
>
> In this page, it says that range is a *generator* whereas it's actually a
> *sequence-type.*
>
> Kindly make the edit yourself however you deem fit or allow me to edit the
> page.
>
> Regards,
> Ashish Deep Singh
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Request access to wiki please

[Steve Holden]

​Hi Sebastian,

Sorry about the lack of response to your first message. We are volunteers,
and occasionally something does fall between the cracks.

​You should now be able to edit the wiki.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, Mar 8, 2018 at 3:54 AM, Sebastian Silva 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I tried mailing before, I'd like to add info about JS to Python compilers
> (Brython, Skulpt, Transcrypt, Javascripthon, Rapydscript...)
>
> Please give me access.
>
> My username is *SebastianSilva*
>
> *I previously wrote for same access on Feb 16th.*
>
> Thank you in advance!
>
> Sebastian
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Page Edit Request

[Steve Holden]

You should now be able to edit the Wiki. Thank you for helping to improve
the Python documentation.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:03 PM, Noah Inada  wrote:

> I agree. That is a better way of putting it.
>
> May I have permission to edit? There is one other occurrence on the same
> page with the  next  method. I would also like to fix the problem on
> other pages if I see it.
>
> I understand if minor grammatical changes are too insignificant to risk
> vandalism.
>
> -Noah Inada
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 2:19 PM, Steve Holden  wrote:
>
>> Both problems would be solved with a change to
>>
>> An *iterable* object is an object that implements __iter__, which is
>> expected to return an *iterator* object.
>>
>> regards
>>  Steve
>>
>> Steve Holden
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:48 PM, Noah Inada  wrote:
>>
>>> Account Name: NoahInada
>>> Proposal: Prepend a 'The' where two method names are separated by only a
>>> '. ' to avoid confusion.
>>>
>>> e.g. on this <https://wiki.python.org/moin/Iterator>page:
>>>
>>> An *iterable* object is an object that implements __iter__. __iter__ is
>>> expected to return an *iterator* object.
>>>
>>> I was confused for a minute because I did not see the space separating
>>> the first __iter__ and the second __iter__. I propose adding a 'The' before
>>> the second __iter__ or a new line.
>>>
>>> -Noah Inada
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Page Edit Request

[Steve Holden]

Both problems would be solved with a change to

An *iterable* object is an object that implements __iter__, which is
expected to return an *iterator* object.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 7:48 PM, Noah Inada  wrote:

> Account Name: NoahInada
> Proposal: Prepend a 'The' where two method names are separated by only a
> '. ' to avoid confusion.
>
> e.g. on this <https://wiki.python.org/moin/Iterator>page:
>
> An *iterable* object is an object that implements __iter__. __iter__ is
> expected to return an *iterator* object.
>
> I was confused for a minute because I did not see the space separating the
> first __iter__ and the second __iter__. I propose adding a 'The' before the
> second __iter__ or a new line.
>
> -Noah Inada
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Actualizar Blogs de SpanishLanguage

[Steve Holden]

Hi Raùl:

I do hope this is sorted out now. Thank you so much for helping with the
Wiki.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 7, 2018 at 10:03 PM, David  wrote:
> >
> > I have tried changed it but it is not possible. I can see, in the
> EditorsGroup page my name at the bottom, but as raulgarcia and not as Raul
> Garcia.
> >
> > I know this is quite confusing . I understand real user is Raul Garcia.
> Could it be possible to change the user so I could confirm all is correct?
> >
>
> No problem; I've changed the authorized user to "Raul Garcia". Try editing
> now.
>
> ChrisA
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Re: [pydotorg-www] edit rights to https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratingPythonWithOtherLanguages

[Steve Holden]

​Chris,

Thanks for caring. A long, long time ago I had dreams of a crew of
thousands of PyWikiGnomes, working in teams to curate areas of interest.

While that hasn't happened yet, we can dream. Do feel free to point any
other like-minded individuals our way!

regards
 Steve​

Steve Holden

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 10:10 PM, Mats Wichmann  wrote:

> On 03/06/2018 02:28 PM, wlavrij...@lbl.gov wrote:
> > Chris,
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > For the articles mentioned in the list (about a third into the page
> > (1)), all
> > of them are ancient (newest from 2003), describing obsolete tech. One
> link
> > still works and I was able to find a live link for another. Last one
> > appears
> > to be completely discarded. Similar for the weave page (2), which refers
> to
> > a project that still exists, but is declared obsolete (all links are
> dead).
> >
> > Any rules for this, or place to discuss?
>
> Not really. Wikis are like this... time wounds them, and there's nobody
> "assigned to maintain".
>
> Just a personal view: sometimes I'll move an obsolete chunk to its own
> section at the bottom of the page with a header that says "this is old
> content, links don't work and will be removed eventually unless somebody
> resurrects it".  Sometimes just throw it out.  The wiki is versioned, so
> if the decision was wrong, an older version of the page can be recovered.
>
>
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Edits to the Python wiki

[Steve Holden]

And thanks for caring enough to make the inquiry!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:02 AM, Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Ethan Rogers 
> wrote:
> > Yes I do! The name for the account is EthanRogers. The associated email
> is
> > erogers6...@gmail.com. Thanks so much for the response.
> > Best, Ethan
>
> No probs! Have at it.
>
> ChrisA
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Re: [Python-Dev] PEP 467 (Minor API improvements for binary sequences) - any thoughts?

[Steve Holden]

I think the chances of a "byte" object are about as good as the chances of
a character object (though one can always implement such in C extensions,
that wouldn't build them into the syntax). The fact that characters are
single-byte strings is responsible for certain anomalies with (e.g.) the
__contains__ operator (list elements aren't lists, but string element are
strings), but overall the choices made lead to sensible, comprehensible
code.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:26 PM, Chris Barker  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:55 AM, Elias Zamaria 
> wrote:
>
>> This is about some minor changes to the bytes, bytearray, and memoryview
>> classes. Here is the PEP: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0467/
>>
>
>
>> I am waiting for this to be merged, or approved, or whatever is the next
>> step. Someone on the bug tracker mentioned restarting the discussion on the
>> mailing list, so that is what I'm trying to do here. Does anyone have any
>> thoughts?
>>
>
> +1 all around.
>
> One other thought:
>
> : Addition of optimised iterator methods that produce bytes objects
>
> Maybe it would make sense to have a "byte" type that holds a single byte.
> It would be an integer that could only hold values from 0-255. Then the
> regular iterator could simply return a bunch of single byte objects.
>
> I can't say I've thought it through, but if a byte is a int with
> restricted range, then it could act like an int in (almost?) every context,
> so there would be no need for a separate iterator.
>
> I also haven't thought through whether there is any real advantage to
> having such a type -- but off the top of my head, making a distinction
> between a bytes object that happens to be length-one and a single byte
> could be handy. I sure do often wish for a character object.
>
> -CHB
>
> --
>
> Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
> Oceanographer
>
> Emergency Response Division
> NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959   voice
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>
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Re: [Python-Dev] How is the GitHub workflow working for people?

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 at 09:30 Yury Selivanov 
> wrote:
>
>>
>
>
>> Huge thanks to the core-workflow team!
>>
>>
​Hear, hear!

regards
 Steve​
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Re: [Python-Dev] A minimal Python interpreter written in Python for experimenting with language changes

[Steve Holden]

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 11:45:15AM +0100, asrp wrote:
>
> ​[...]
>


> Here's a faked session showing the sort of thing I am referring to.
> (Note that this is just an example, not a proposal for a new language
> feature.)
>
> for x in [1, 2, 3]:
> print(x)
> otherwise:
> print("nothing there")
>
>
> prints 1, 2, 3.
>

​I think you meant

for x in ([1, 2, 3], ):

​
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Re: [Python-Dev] libxml2 installation/binding issue

[Steve Holden]

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:55 PM, Ethan Smith  wrote:

> This list is for the discussion of development *of* Python. For
> discussion of development *with* Python, you want python-list.
>

 ... Whose web page can be found at
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Steve Holden
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Re: [Python-Dev] Is 4.0 a major breaking changes release?

[Steve Holden]

On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 10:46 PM, Ned Deily  wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 17:40, Alex Walters  wrote:
> > I am still working on porting code from 2.x to 3.x.  As of late on the
> lists
> > I've seen comments about making somewhat major changes in 4.0 - now I'm
> > concerned that I should pause my porting effort until that is released.
> Is
> > python 4 going to be another python 3?
>
> At this point, Python 4 is just a convenient tag for really big changes.
> There are no concrete plans or schedule for such a major undertaking.  Port
> away to Python 3.x!
>
> ​"Py3K?" they said, "oh, no, we're just noodling around with a few ideas
..."​ :-)

To be honest, and historically fair to Guido, he did warn for a long time
that we should expect breaking changes in an eventual wart-removal release.

It seemed to me the biggest disappointment was the team not having the
resources to devote to a mooted but never really achieved reorganisation of
the stdlib.

​Rectifying that omission would, I hope, be included as a priority in any
Python 4 design. Since people rely on the stdlib hugely, automated
translation of at least 98% of existing stdlib imports should be a goal.
But that's just  me.
​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Dataclasses and correct hashability

[Steve Holden]

As a Bear of Relatively Little Brain, I've grown up understanding, and
teaching, that mutable things aren't to be used as dict keys. I'm aware
that immutability isn't strictly the required condition, but it for most
people, that's the primary reason for using frozen sets and tuples, for
example, and immutability serves as a practical and comprehensible first
approximation. So I'm at a loss to understand why I am being offered a
feature that (especially during maintenance by a different developer) might
be prone to bizarre errors caused by a change in hash.

I realise that this won't happen very often, but the difficulty of the
debug task should surely merit at least some warning for us bears - you
know, the ones that take your work and use it to do mundane things with.

On a slightly tangential note, us bears are very glad that such questions
are taken seriously and discussed in such depth. Thank you all.

Steve Holden

On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 6:44 AM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> It appears Eric and I are the only ones in favor of keeping the current
> behavior. But I still am not convinced by all the worries about "attractive
> nuisances" and all the other bad names this feature has been called. We
> don't know that any of the doomsday scenarios will happen. In my
> experience, usually once something is rolled out the set of issues that are
> *actually* raised is entirely different from the things its designers were
> worried about.
>
> Please don't commit a change to roll this back without checking in with
> me; I have some misgivings about the problem being raised here that I still
> need to think through more carefully. In the meantime, please try to use
> dataclasses with 3.7b1!
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:25 PM, Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 3 Feb. 2018 1:09 am, "Eric V. Smith"  wrote:
>>
>>
>> The problem with dropping hash=True is: how would you write __hash__
>> yourself? It seems like a bug magnet if you're adding fields to the class
>> and forget to update __hash__, especially in the presence of per-field
>> hash=False and eq=False settings. And you'd need to make sure it matches
>> the generated __eq__ (if 2 objects are equal, they need to have the same
>> hash value).
>>
>>
>> I think anyone that does this needs to think *very* carefully about how
>> they do it, and offering both "hash=True" and "frozen=True" is an
>> attractive nuisance that means people will write "hash=True" when what they
>> wanted was "frozen=True".
>>
>> In particular, having to work out how write a maintainable "__hash__"
>> will encourage folks to separate out the hashed fields as a separate frozen
>> subrecord or base class.
>>
>> If this proves to be an intolerable burden then the short hand spelling
>> could be added back in 3.8, but once we ship it we're going to be stuck
>> with explaining the interactions indefinitely.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nick.
>>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] OS-X builds for 3.7.0

[Steve Holden]

Doh! Thank you.

Steve Holden
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Re: [Python-Dev] OS-X builds for 3.7.0

[Steve Holden]

The horizontal axis labelling in that graph is useless with so many tests
included!

Would a graphic with hover labels over the bars be more useful?

Steve Holden

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> There is https://speed.python.org/comparison/ to compare Python 2.7, 3.5,
> 3.6 and master (future 3.7).
>
> Victor
>
> Le 31 janv. 2018 13:14, "Ray Donnelly"  a écrit :
>
>> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:16 AM, Joni Orponen 
>> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 9:31 AM, Ray Donnelly 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> We see a 1.1 to 1.2 times performance benefit over official releases as
>> >> measured using 'python performance'.
>> >>
>> >> Apart from a static interpreter we also enable LTO and PGO and only
>> build
>> >> for 64-bit so I'm not sure how much each bit continues. Our recipe for
>> >> python 3.6 can be found at:
>> >
>> >
>> > Do you metrify LTO and PGO independent of each other as well or only the
>> > "enable everything" combo? I've had mixed results with LTO so far, but
>> this
>> > is probably hardware / compiler combination specific.
>>
>> I've never found enough time to take detailed metrics, sorry. Maybe
>> one day? Looking at my performance graphs again:
>>
>> Against the official CPython 3.6 (probably .3 or .4) release I see:
>> 1 that is 2.01x faster (python-startup, 24.6ms down to 12.2ms)
>> 5 that are >=1.5x,<1.6x faster.
>> 13 that are >=1.4x,<1.5x faster.
>> 21 that are >=1.3x,<1.4x faster.
>> 14 that are >=1.2x,<1.3x faster.
>> 5 that are >=1.1x,<1.2x faster.
>> 0 that are < 1.1x faster/slower.
>>
>> Pretty good numbers overall I think.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Joni Orponen
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > Unsubscribe:
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/mingw.
>> android%40gmail.com
>> >
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Would like to be able to edit my entry on the PythonConsulting, PythonTrainers and my name's page

[Steve Holden]

Glad we could help. Now you have editing privileges, feel free to maintain 
content more generally.

regards
 Steve

Sent from my iPhone

> On 30 Jan 2018, at 14:19, Vasudev Ram  wrote:
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thanks for your help, and Mats too.
> 
> Things are working now. I was able to edit and update all the wiki
> pages that I knew had info about me or my Python products / consulting
> / training, and made the needed changes.
> 
> Thanks
> Vasudev
> 
> 
>> On 1/30/18, Steve Holden  wrote:
>> Hi Vasudev,
>> 
>> Sorry you are having problems. When I'm logged in my menu bar looks as
>> below.
>> [image: Inline image 1]
>> I have verified that "VasudevRam <https://wiki.python.org/moin/VasudevRam>"
>> has indeed been added to the Editors group.
>> 
>> Still having issues?
>> 
>> regards
>> Steve
>> 
>> Steve Holden
>> 
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Permission to edit a page

[Steve Holden]

Hi Tuhin,

I regret to say that wiki sign-up is a different procedure from sign-up to
python.org (which frankly currently serves little real purpose).

You can sign up at https://wiki.python.org/moin/FrontPage?action=newaccount,
and once you let us know your username we can add you to the editors list.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Tuhin Hasan  wrote:

> Dear Python team
>
> Hope you are having a wonderful time. I need a permission to edit in your
> wiki page. We are OBOYOB, a software development company and like to share
> our ideas and use of python in wiki. You can find us @
> https://www.oboyob.com/.
>
> My account details is
> Name: Tuhin
> Email: tuhinara...@gmail.com
>
> Best wishes for you
> Tuhin
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Would like to be able to edit my entry on the PythonConsulting, PythonTrainers and my name's page

[Steve Holden]

Hi Vasudev,

Sorry you are having problems. When I'm logged in my menu bar looks as
below.
[image: Inline image 1]
I have verified that "VasudevRam <https://wiki.python.org/moin/VasudevRam>"
has indeed been added to the Editors group.

Still having issues?

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 4:56 PM, Vasudev Ram  wrote:

> I logged out (after reading your previous mail where you said you added
> me) and logged in again. Still do not see any link or button to edit, on
> the top, left side or bottom of the page. How to do it?
>
>
> vasudevram.github.io | codementor.io/vasudevram
> jugad2.blogspot.com | gumroad.com/vasudevram
> ConvertKit email marketing: http://mbsy.co/convertkit/28519854
>
> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:53 PM, Vasudev Ram  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 9:52 PM, Mats Wichmann  wrote:
>>
>>> added using the name noted above.
>>>
>>>
>> ​Thank you.
>> ​
>>
>>
>
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[Python-Dev] CLion IDE

[Steve Holden]

I've just start using CLion from JetBrains, and I wondered if anyone on the
list is using this product in CPython development. Links to any guidance
would be useful.

regards
Steve Holden
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Re: [Python-Dev] Support of the Android platform

[Steve Holden]

For this to move forward more rapidly it would really help if there were a
utility VM appliance available with a ready-installed support an SDK. Or at
least that would lower impedance to joining the development effort. Does
any such beast by chance exist?

S

Steve Holden

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:17 PM, Victor Stinner 
wrote:

> Ok, I created https://bugs.python.org/issue32637
> "Android: set sys.platform and os.name to android"
>
> Victor
>
> 2018-01-23 18:01 GMT+01:00 Brett Cannon :
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 at 09:29 Victor Stinner 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I'm still talking with Paul Peny (pmpp on IRC) who is trying to build
> >> the master branch of Python on Android, using cross-compilation or
> >> directly on an Android device. I started to took notes since Android
> >> is a complex platforms and it's not easy for me to remember
> >> everything.
> >>
> >> http://vstinner.readthedocs.io/python_android.html
> >>
> >> Paul would like to support Android 4.4 Kitkat (API 19) just because
> >> it's possible to find cheap devices running Android, but usually only
> >> with old Android versions. Technically, it doesn't see difficult to
> >> support API 19+ (instead of 21+), a few tiny patches are needed. But I
> >> don't want to have a "full support" of API 19+, only basic support
> >> like "make sure that the compilation doesn't fail", not "all tests
> >> must pass".
> >>
> >> It seems like sys.platform == 'android' would be more appropriate
> >> since Android is not Linux: different libc, different filesystems,
> >> etc.
> >
> >
> > I've had a similar thought myself.
> >
> > -Brett
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> While Xavier promotes cross-compilation, Paul would like to build
> >> Python directly on Android to get pip and wheels.
> >>
> >> Honestly, I have no strong opinion, since I don't know well Android.
> >> I'm trying to help everybody working on the Android support. IMHO it's
> >> fine to support multiple ways to build Python for Android. It's not
> >> like there is very obvious option which has no drawback... Cross
> >> compilation is complex, getting a C compiler on Android also seems to
> >> be complex. From my point of view, compared to a common Fedora Linux,
> >> Android doesn't seem easy to use to develop on CPython...
> >>
> >> Victor
> >>
> >> 2017-12-10 15:19 GMT+01:00 Xavier de Gaye :
> >> > The following note is a proposal to add the support of the Android
> >> > platform.
> >> >
> >> > The note is easier to read with clickable links at
> >> > https://github.com/xdegaye/cagibi/blob/master/doc/android_support.rst
> >> >
> >> > Motivations
> >> > ===
> >> >
> >> > * Android is ubiquitous.
> >> > * This would be the first platform supported by Python that is
> >> > cross-compiled,
> >> >   thanks to many contributors.
> >> > * Although the Android operating system is linux, it is different from
> >> > most
> >> >   linux platforms, for example it does not use GNU libc and runs
> SELinux
> >> > in
> >> >   enforcing mode. Therefore supporting this platform would make Python
> >> > more
> >> >   robust and also would allow testing it on arm 64-bit processors.
> >> > * Python running on Android is also a handheld calculator, a successor
> >> > of
> >> > the
> >> >   slide rule and the `HP 41`_.
> >> >
> >> > Current status
> >> > ==
> >> >
> >> > * The Python test suite succeeds when run on Android emulators using
> >> > buildbot
> >> >   strenuous settings with the following architectures on API 24: x86,
> >> > x86_64,
> >> >   armv7 and arm64.
> >> > * The `Android build system`_ is described in another section.
> >> > * The `buildmaster-config PR 26`_ proposes to update ``master.cfg`` to
> >> > enable
> >> >   buildbots to run a given Android API and architecture on the
> >> > emulators.
> >> > * The Android emulator is actually ``qemu``, so the test suites for
> x86
> >> > and
> >> >   x86_64 last about the same time as the test suite run natively whe

Re: [python-uk] Setting up Django on Google Cloud (basic server)

[Steve Holden]

>From your description it sounds like the IP address of your host is not
delivering packets to your VM, which should be listening on all its
interfaces. Perhaps a problem in your virtual's interface configuration?  S

Steve Holden

On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:52 PM, Samuel Muiruri 
wrote:

> I had this issue before with AWS i remember it was just as stressful then
> and actually can't remember what actually fixed it. I basically have a
> clean Ubuntu VM which I followed this guide https://www.
> digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-set-up-
> django-with-postgres-nginx-and-gunicorn-on-ubuntu-16-04 step by step on
> creating and hosting django on a site.
>
> Every step worked smoothly until this point when I need to run the command
> "python manage.py runserver 0.0.0.0:8000" which starts the service (shown
> on the attached screenshot) (also is the google cloud page showing the
> given external ip) according to this with the server waiting visiting
> http://35.227.49.155:8000/ should bring the site or something but it
> fails to connect i get "
> This site can’t be reached
> " message.
>
> For now I'm taking a break hoping I'll come up with something, also hope
> someone here who might have gone through the same or is a seasoned web dev
> might also help too.
>
> --
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Samuel Muiruri.
>
> Senior Developer @ Revorta.
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] LibreSSL support

[Steve Holden]

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:09 AM, Nathaniel Smith  wrote:

> On Jan 18, 2018 07:34, "Christian Heimes"  wrote:
>
> On 2018-01-16 21:17, Christian Heimes wrote:
> > FYI, master on Travis CI now builds and uses OpenSSL 1.1.0g [1]. I have
> > created a daily cronjob to populate Travis' cache with OpenSSL builds.
> > Until the cache is filled, Linux CI will take an extra 5 minute.
>
> I have messed up my initial research. :( When I was checking LibreSSL
> and OpenSSL for features, I draw a wrong conclusion. LibreSSL is *not*
> OpenSSL 1.0.2 compatible. It only implements some of the required
> features from 1.0.2 (e.g. X509_check_hostname) but not
> X509_VERIFY_PARAM_set1_host.
>
> X509_VERIFY_PARAM_set1_host() is required to perform hostname
> verification during the TLS handshake. Without the function, I'm unable
> to fix Python's hostname matching code [1]. LibreSSL upstream knows
> about the issue since 2016 [2]. I have opened another bug report [3].
>
> We have two options until LibreSSL has addressed the issue:
>
> 1) Make the SSL module more secure, simpler and standard conform
> 2) Support LibreSSL
>
>
> ​[...]
>


> We have *very* few people qualified to maintain the ssl module, so given
> the new landscape I think we should focus on keeping our core OpenSSL
> support solid and not worry about LibreSSL. If LibreSSL wants to be
> supported as well then – like any other 2nd tier platform – they need to
> find someone to do the work. And if people are worried about supporting
> more diversity in SSL implementations, then PEP 543 is probably the thing
> to focus on.
>
> ​Given the hard limit on resources it seems only sensible to focus on the
"industry standard" library​. I'm rather disappointed that LibreSSL isn't a
choice, but given the lack of compatibility that's hardly Python's problem.
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Re: [pydotorg-www] permission to edit wiki page on parallel processing

[Steve Holden]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your note, and for your willingness to help. I've added you to
the editors group - have at it!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Robert Nishihara 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just made the account RobertNishihara
> <https://wiki.python.org/moin/RobertNishihara> and was wondering if you
> could add me to the "editors group".
>
> I'm developing a distributed Python execution framework called Ray
> <https://github.com/ray-project/ray>, and I was hoping to add that to the wiki
> page on parallel processing
> <https://wiki.python.org/moin/ParallelProcessing> to make it easier for
> others to find.
>
> *Relevant links about Ray:*
> - PyPI: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/ray
> - Documentation: http://ray.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html
> - Codebase: https://github.com/ray-project/ray
> - Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.05889
>
> Thanks,
> Robert
>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Request to edit page to add new Python Interest Group

[Steve Holden]

Thanks for your note, John, and for wanting to help.

You have been added to the editors group, and should now be able to go
ahead.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 5:37 AM,  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> My user name is JohnMacTavish and I am following the instructions on
> setting up a Python Interest Group in the Tri-Cities area in Washington
> State USA.
>
> I would like to have edit access to add our group to the Local Users Group
> Page.
>
> * [[https://www.meetup.com/PythonTriCities-Meetup//|Python Tri-Cities]]
>
> Thank you,
> John MacTavish
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Editing pages in the CheezeShop.

[Steve Holden]

Thanks for your note, and for wanting to help!

I believe I've added you to the editors group - give it a go, and let me
know if you still don't have permissions.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 1:05 AM, George Lambert  wrote:

>
> I went to edit some pages with broken links, but am unable to my account
> is
>
> GeorgeLambert
>
> I would appreciate being added as an editor.
>
> The page I was looking at with a bunch of dead links is:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/FlowBasedProgramming
>
>
> --
> P THINK BEFORE PRINTING: is it really necessary?
>
> This e-mail and its attachments are confidential and solely for the
> intended addressee(s). Do not share or use them without approval. If
> received in error, contact the sender
> and delete them.
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Is static typing still optional?

[Steve Holden]

On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 7:55 PM, Terry Reedy  wrote:

> On 12/21/2017 9:23 AM, Eric V. Smith wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/21/17 6:25 AM, Sven R. Kunze wrote:
>>
>>> On 21.12.2017 11:22, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>

 @dataclass
>> class C:
>>  a: int # integer field with no default
>>  b: float = 0.0 # float field with a default
>>
>> And the types will be recognized by type checkers such as mypy.
>>
>> And I think the non-typed examples should go first in the docs.
>>
>

>>> I still don't understand why "I don't care" can be defined by "leaving
>>> out"
>>>
>>> @dataclass
>>> class C:
>>>  b = 0.0 # float field with a default
>>>
>>
>> Because you can't know the order that x and y are defined in this example:
>>
>> class C:
>>  x: int
>>  y = 0
>>
>> 'x' is not in C.__dict__, and 'y' is not in C.__annotations__.
>>
>
>
​Solely because, annotations being optional, the interpreter is not allowed
to infer from its presence  that an annotated name should be ​allocated an
entry in __dict__, and clearly the value associated with it would be
problematical.

I think the understanding problem with this feature arises from two
> factors: using annotations to define possibly un-initialized slots is
> non-obvious; a new use of annotations for something other than static
> typing is a bit of a reversal of the recent pronouncement 'annotations
> should only be used for static typing'.  Therefore, getting the permanent
> doc 'right' is important.
>

​Indeed. So annotations are optional, except where they aren't?​


> The following naively plausible alternative does not work and cannot
> sensibly be made to work because the bare 'x' in the class scope, as
> opposed to a similar error within a method, causes NameError before the
> class is created.
>
> @dataclass
> class C:
> x
> y = 0
>
> ​Quite. Could this be handled the same way not-yet initilialised slots
are? (Pardon my ignornace).
​


> I think the doc should explicitly say that uninitialized fields require
> annotation with something (anything, not necessarily a type) simply to
> avoid NameError during class creation.  It may not be obvious to some
> readers why x:'anything' does not also raise NameError, but that was a
> different PEP, and the dataclass doc could here link to wherever
> name:annotation in bodies is explained.
>
>
​This contortion is why I feel a better solution would be desirable. Alas I
do not have one to hand.

regards
 Steve​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Guarantee ordered dict literals in v3.7?

[Steve Holden]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:

> Nathaniel Smith writes:
>
>  > To make sure I understand, do you actually have a script like this, or
>  > is this hypothetical?
>
> I have a couple of doctests that assume that pprint will sort by key,
> yes.  It makes the tests look quite a bit nicer by pprinting the
> output, and I get sorting (which matters for some older Pythons) for
> free.  (I admit I don't actually use those tests with older Pythons,
> but the principle stands.)
>
> I don't see why we don't do the obvious, namely add the option to use
> "native" order to the PrettyPrinter class, with the default being
> backward compatible.
>

​Perhaps now key ordering has been pronounced we could either add a
"sorted" method to dicts equivalent to the following code.

def sorted(self):​
return {self[k] for k in sorted(self.keys())}

Alternatively the sorted built-in could be modified to handle dicts in this
way. Though I still find the assumption of any ordering at all a bit weird
I suppose I'll grow used to it.

regards
 Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Is static typing still optional?

[Steve Holden]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Paul Moore  wrote:

> On 19 December 2017 at 07:49, Eric V. Smith  wrote:
> > Data Classes is also not the first use of type annotations in the stdlib:
> > https://docs.python.org/3/library/typing.html#typing.NamedTuple
> >
>
> Also, the fact that no-one raised this issue during the whole time the
> PEP was being discussed (at least as far as I recollect) and that
> Guido (who of all of us should be most aware of what is and isn't
> acceptable use of annotations in the stdlib) approved the PEP,
> suggests to me that this isn't that big a deal.
>
> The only thing that has surprised me in this discussion is that the
> actual type used in the annotation makes no difference. And once
> someone reminded me that types are never enforced at runtime (you can
> call f(x: int) with f('haha')) that seemed fine.
>

​If anything, this makes things more difficult for the learner.​ The fact
that annotations are formally undefined as to anything but syntax is
sensible but can be misleading (as the example above clearly shows).

In the typing module it's logical to see annotations, I guess. But I really
hope they aren't sprinkled around willy-nilly. Sooner or later there will
be significant demand for annotated libraries, even though CPython will
perform exactly as it does with non-annotated code. I can see the value of
annotations in other environments and for different purposes, but it would
be a pity if this were to unnecessarily complicate the stdlib.

regards
 Steve
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Re: [Python-Dev] Decision of having a deprecation period or not for changing csv.DictReader returning type.

[Steve Holden]

I submitted the 3.6 patch that Raymond committed. The purpose of the change
was to allow access to the ordering of the columns.

It doesn't use any of the OrderedDict-only methods, and I'd be very
surprised if a reversion to using dict in 3.7 would cause any tests to fail.

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 6:30 AM, 尚辉  wrote:

> Since regular dicts are ordered in 3.7, it might be cleaner to returning 
> regular dict instead of OrderedDict?
>
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Guarantee ordered dict literals in v3.7?

[Steve Holden]

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:47 PM, Guido van Rossum  wrote:

> ​[...]
>


> stays ordered across deletions" part of the ruling is true in CPython 3.6.
>
> I don't know what guidance to give Eric, because I don't know what other
> implementations do nor whether Eric cares about being compatible with
> those. IIUC micropython does not guarantee this currently, but I don't know
> if they claim Python 3.6 compatibility -- in fact I can't find any document
> that specifies the Python version they're compatible with more precisely
> than "Python 3".
>

​They currently specify 3.4+.

Specifically, https://github.com/micropython/micropython includes:

"""
MicroPython implements the entire Python 3.4 syntax (including exceptions,
with, yield from, etc., and additionally async/await keywords from Python
3.5). The following core datatypes are provided: str (including basic
Unicode support), bytes, bytearray, tuple, list, dict, set, frozenset,
array.array, collections.namedtuple, classes and instances. Builtin modules
include sys, time, and struct, etc. Select ports have support for
_thread module
(multithreading). *Note that only a subset of Python 3 functionality is
implemented for the data types and modules*.
"""

Note the emphasis I added on the last sentence.
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Re: [Python-Dev] Is static typing still optional?

[Steve Holden]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal <
chris.bar...@noaa.gov> wrote:

> .
>
> I see a couple of options:
> 1a: Use a default type annotation, if one is not is supplied. typing.Any
> would presumably make the most sense.
> 1b: Use None if not type is supplied.
> 2: Rework the code to not require annotations at all.
>
> I think I'd prefer 1a, since it's easy.
>
>
> 2) would be great :-)
>
> I find this bit of “typing creep” makes me nervous— Typing should Never be
> required!
>
> ​+1
​


> I understand that the intent here is that the user could ignore typing and
> have it all still work. But I’d rather is was not still there under the
> hood.
>
> Just because standardized way to do something is included in core Python
> doesn’t mean the standard library has to use it.
>
> ​I trust my repetition of the point that the stdlib is an important
learning resource isn't unduly harping on the subject. Python is in danger
of becoming pretty arcane rather too rapidly for my own liking​, though I
confess to being mostly a consumer of Python.

> However, typing is not currently imported by dataclasses.py.
>
>
> And there you have an actual reason besides my uneasiness :-)
>
> - CHB
>
> ​hmm...​
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Re: [Python-Dev] [RELEASE] Python 3.6.4rc1 and 3.7.0a3 now available for testing

[Steve Holden]

Ned,

In your role as a representative of the many fine release managers Python
has had over the years I'd like to thank you for continuing to make
high-quality software available to a large and growing community. And
thanks to everyone who contributes to Python so the majority just get to
enjoy it.

Seasons greetings
Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 2:29 AM, Ned Deily  wrote:

> Announcing the immediate availability of Python 3.6.4 release candidate 1
> and of Python 3.7.0 alpha 3!
>
> Python 3.6.4rc1 is the first release candidate for Python 3.6.4, the next
> maintenance release of Python 3.6.  While 3.6.4rc1 is a preview release
> and,
> thus, not intended for production environments, we encourage you to explore
> it and provide feedback via the Python bug tracker (
> https://bugs.python.org).
> 3.6.4 is planned for final release on 2017-12-18 with the next maintenance
> release expected to follow in about 3 months.  You can find Python 3.6.4rc1
> and more information here:
> https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-364rc1/
>
> Python 3.7.0a3 is the third of four planned alpha releases of Python 3.7,
> the next feature release of Python.  During the alpha phase, Python 3.7
> remains under heavy development: additional features will be added
> and existing features may be modified or deleted.  Please keep in mind
> that this is a preview release and its use is not recommended for
> production environments.  The next preview release, 3.7.0a4, is planned
> for 2018-01-08. You can find Python 3.7.0a3 and more information here:
> https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-370a3/
>
> --
>   Ned Deily
>   n...@python.org -- []
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] What's the status of PEP 505: None-aware operators?

[Steve Holden]

On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Steven D'Aprano 
wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 11:54:39PM -0500, Random832 wrote:
>
> > The OP isn't confusing anything; it's Eric who is confused. The quoted
> > paragraph of the PEP clearly and unambiguously claims that the sequence
> > is "arguments -> function -> call", meaning that something happens after
> > the "function" stage [i.e. a None check] cannot short-circuit the
> > "arguments" stage. But in fact the sequence is "function -> arguments ->
> > call".
>
> I'm more confused than ever. You seem to be arguing that Python
> functions CAN short-circuit their arguments and avoid evaluating them.
> Is that the case?
>
> If not, then I fail to see the difference between
>
> "arguments -> function -> call"
>
> "function -> arguments -> call"
>
> In *both cases* the arguments are fully evaluated before the function is
> called, and so there is nothing the function can do to delay evaluating
> its arguments.
>
> If this is merely about when the name "function" is looked up, then I
> don't see why that's relevant to the PEP.
>
> What am I missing?
>
> ​I guess it's possible that if computing the function (i.e., evaluating
the expression immediately to the left of the argument list) and/or the
argument has side effects​

​then the evaluation order will affect the outcome. Intuitively it seems
more straightforward to compute the function first. If this expression were
to raise an exception, of course, then the arguments would not then be
evaluated. Or vice versa. It would be best of the specification matches
current CPython bahviour.
​
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Re: [Python-Dev] Can Python guarantee the order of keyword-only parameters?

[Steve Holden]

I was going to suggest the final DeprecationWarning should be raised
unconditionally (subject to whatever silencing rules are agreed) by the
final 2.7 release to recommend migration to Python 3.

"This is an ex-language ... it has ceased to be ... it is no more ... it
has returned to the great heap whence it came ..."

Steve Holden

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Brett Cannon  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 at 03:33 Nick Coghlan  wrote:
>
>> On 28 November 2017 at 15:42, Larry Hastings  wrote:
>> > On 11/27/2017 03:58 PM, Yury Selivanov wrote:
>> >> We can't say anything about the order if someone passes a partial
>> >> object
>> >
>> > Sure we could.  We could ensure that functools.partial behaves in a sane
>> > way, then document and guarantee that behavior.
>>
>> Right, I think the main implication here would be that we need to
>> ensure that any signature manipulation operations *we* provide are
>> order preserving.
>>
>> Fortunately for Larry, we kinda cheat on that front: all the logic for
>> dealing with this problem is in the inspect module itself, which knows
>> about all the different ways we manipulate signatures in the standard
>> library. That means that if we want to declare that the inspect module
>> will be order preserving, we can, and it shouldn't require changes to
>> anything else.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nick.
>>
>> P.S. Note that inspect.getfullargspec() was actually undeprecated a
>> while back - enough folks that didn't need access to the function
>> annotations were reimplementing it for themselves "because the
>> standard library API is deprecated" that the most logical course of
>> action was to just declare it as being supported again. I don't think
>> that changes the argument here though - it just means guaranteed order
>> preservation in that API will only happen if we declare dicts to be
>> insertion ordered in general.
>>
>
> OT for this thread, but is there an issue number tracking the
> un-deprecating? Basically I want to make sure there is an issue tracking
> deprecating it again when we stop worrying about any Python 2/3 support.
>
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Re: [Python-Dev] Tricky way of of creating a generator via a comprehension expression

[Steve Holden]

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Sven R. Kunze  wrote:

> Isn't yield like a return?
>
​Enough like it to make a good case, I'd say.​


> A return in a list/dict/set comprehension makes no sense to me.
>
​Nor me, nor the vast majority of instance. But nowadays yield is more of a
synchronisation point. If something is valid syntax we should presumably
like to have defined semantics.

> So, +1 on SyntaxError from me too.
>
​I'd tend to agree. This would give more time to discuss the intended
semantics: giving it meaning later might be a more cautious approach that
would allow decisions to be made in the light of further experience.

I would urge developers, in their ​improvements to the language to support
asynchronous programming, to bear in mind that this is (currently) a
minority use case. Why the rush to set complex semantics in stone?

>
regards
 Steve​


> Cheers.
>
> On 22.11.2017 21:29, David Mertz wrote:
>
> Inasmuch as I get to opine, I'm +1 on SyntaxError. There is no behavior
> for that spelling that I would find intuitive or easy to explain to
> students. And as far as I can tell, the ONLY time anything has ever been
> spelled that way is in comments saying "look at this weird edge case
> behavior in Python."
>
> On Nov 22, 2017 10:57 AM, "Jelle Zijlstra" 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2017-11-22 9:58 GMT-08:00 Guido van Rossum :
>
>> Wow, 44 messages in 4 hours. That must be some kind of record.
>>
>> If/when there's an action item, can someone summarize for me?
>>
>> The main disagreement seems to be about what this code should do:
>
> g = [(yield i) for i in range(3)]
>
> Currently, this makes `g` into a generator, not a list. Everybody seems to
> agree this is nonintuitive and should be changed.
>
> One proposal is to make it so `g` gets assigned a list, and the `yield`
> happens in the enclosing scope (so the enclosing function would have to be
> a generator). This was the way things worked in Python 2, I believe.
>
> Another proposal is to make this code a syntax error, because it's
> confusing either way. (For what it's worth, that would be my preference.)
>
> There is related discussion about the semantics of list comprehensions
> versus calling list() on a generator expression, and of async semantics,
> but I don't think there's any clear point of action there.
>
>
>> --
>> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido )
>>
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>>
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Re: [pydotorg-www] Update tclpython link in wiki

[Steve Holden]

Alex,

Thanks to you and everybody who volunteers to keep the Wiki alive and
current!

regards
 Steve

Steve Holden

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Chris Angelico  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Alex Mykyta  wrote:
> > Sure!
> > Username is "Alex Mykyta"
> > My OpenID is amykyta3
>
> No problem. You should now be able to make edits.
>
> Sorry about earlier; your original message seems to have gotten lost
> somehow.
>
> ChrisA
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