Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Jay Bromley]

Actually Mike I found this not to be the case.  Both Ed Hare and Mike Gubber 
where not only a big help in my case, but offered to help me take it to the 
next level as I was about to give up on Ham Radio due to the bad scooter 
charger.  Maybe I was lucky?

73 de jay/w5jay..

--
From: "Mike Sawyer" 
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 5:21 PM
To: "Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service" 

Subject: Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

> Rob, (et al),
>I wouldn't count on the ARRgghhL doing anything to help you other than
> send you a few pamphlets. A good friend of mine went through the 
> "Neighbors
> complaint about ham radio in their stereo" routine. Every time he lit off
> his T-368, he would get phone calls. It got so bad that it became a
> political issue. The neighbors complained to the mayor and the mayor told 
> my
> friend "I'm going to shut you down!" This made the local news as well.
> Anyway, one day he gets a phone call from the FCC office out of NYC. They
> want to come down and check his station out, see how he operates, etc. Two
> guys from the FCC show their credentials and say they want to run tests 
> etc.
> Only one of the neighbors was home at the time so the other guy went there
> and listened to the stereo while the one stayed with my friend at his
> station. He tuned his T-368 for 375watts stating that was all he was 
> allowed
> to operate at. The FCC tech instructed him to tune for max power out. They
> went through all the bands and found some slight audio reaching the stereo
> on 40M but that was it. They packed up. Told my friend that they loved all
> the classic radios that he had there and they thought they were cool. The
> tech also told him not to worry that his signal was clean and with in the
> parameters of his license. When my friend referred about what the mayor 
> had
> threatened him with. The guy said, "WE are the ones that say WHO may 
> operate
> and WHO MAY NOT!!! Don't worry about your mayor, we will take care of 
> him."
> Nothing else came of the issue other than the fact the mayor lost to his
> opponent in the upcoming election.
>When I asked my friend if the (be)League(d) did anything for him. He
> just pick up a pamphlet that said how to keep RFI out of your house, 
> (about
> a 2 page pamphlet).
>Thus began and feeds my cynicism about the ARRgghhL to this day.
> Mod-U-Lator,
> Mike(y)
> W3SLK
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Rob Atkinson" 
> To: "Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service"
> 
> Cc: "JAMES HANLON" 
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System
>
>
> You can certainly avail yourself of the FCC but before you start
> contacting them I would (after following through with your plan to
> make sure something your neighbor has, is indeed the problem) attempt
> to work something out with your neighbor first.  I have been through
> the RFI dance myself on the sending and receiving ends.  You must be
> mindful  that your neighbor is happily operating his appliance
> oblivious to your misery so be in a calm and polite frame of mind.  It
> can be a big help if you bring along a portable sw rx so you can stand
> there with it tuned to a clear 40 m. frequency and have it blast out
> the RFI to demonstrate what you are dealing with.  Don't start going
> off on being a licensed station, Federal Law, Part 15 or any of that
> just yet.  You may be surprised at how cooperative they might be --
> they might even offer to disable the thing until it can be fixed.  Not
> everyone is a crab (at least not everyone here in the midwest).
> It is tempting to charge in and blow a gasket when you have your
> operating wrecked, i know as I am dealing with that now on 75 and 160
> but do your homework first and know what to do about the appliance so
> you have some measures ready if it does turn out to be this X10 thing.
> You'll have to have a plan to explain to them once you start talking
> to them.  You can get some ideas on how to deal with this stuff from
> the ARRL Tech. Info. Service on their website, or call them and talk
> to someone there on the phone and use google to hunt for RFI
> information on these things.  Also the RFI reflector at contesting.com
> has a searchable archive you can go through in case this has been
> dealt with in the past.   ARRL has a list of hams, I think many are
> lawyers, who are experienced at being ombudsmen and helping you work
> with a 3rd party unknowingly causing you RFI.  At this point if you
> contact FCC they will probably just tell you to do ever

Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Rob Atkinson]

Mike, glad to read one account of the FCC doing something.  I have
always thought that I'd welcome a visit from them.  I have nothing to
fear. I know I'm linear, clean (including 2nd harmonic), and under 1.5
kw.  AND, I imagine they'd have some fancy super dooper analytical
gear with them so I'd learn something new about my station.  Amazing
how folks think they can walk all over a ham just because he has his
station at his home.

73
Rob

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Mike Sawyer  wrote:
> Rob, (et al),
>    I wouldn't count on the ARRgghhL doing anything to help you other than
> send you a few pamphlets. A good friend of mine went through the "Neighbors
> complaint about ham radio in their stereo" routine. Every time he lit off
> his T-368, he would get phone calls. It got so bad that it became a
> political issue. The neighbors complained to the mayor and the mayor told my
> friend "I'm going to shut you down!" This made the local news as well.
> Anyway, one day he gets a phone call from the FCC office out of NYC. They
> want to come down and check his station out, see how he operates, etc. Two
> guys from the FCC show their credentials and say they want to run tests etc.
> Only one of the neighbors was home at the time so the other guy went there
> and listened to the stereo while the one stayed with my friend at his
> station. He tuned his T-368 for 375watts stating that was all he was allowed
> to operate at. The FCC tech instructed him to tune for max power out. They
> went through all the bands and found some slight audio reaching the stereo
> on 40M but that was it. They packed up. Told my friend that they loved all
> the classic radios that he had there and they thought they were cool. The
> tech also told him not to worry that his signal was clean and with in the
> parameters of his license. When my friend referred about what the mayor had
> threatened him with. The guy said, "WE are the ones that say WHO may operate
> and WHO MAY NOT!!! Don't worry about your mayor, we will take care of him."
> Nothing else came of the issue other than the fact the mayor lost to his
> opponent in the upcoming election.
>    When I asked my friend if the (be)League(d) did anything for him. He
> just pick up a pamphlet that said how to keep RFI out of your house, (about
> a 2 page pamphlet).
>    Thus began and feeds my cynicism about the ARRgghhL to this day.
> Mod-U-Lator,
> Mike(y)
> W3SLK
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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Rob Atkinson]

If this is a sign of what we can expect in the way of FCC policy (and
I hope it is not) then the message I get is every man for himself and
if the noise floor raises, then we have to raise our signal strength
along with it in various ways such as increasing ERP and improving S/N
ratio on rx.  I do not intend to quietly give up and start getting
into one of those weak signal low power data modes.   Unfortunately
the operators who loose out will be the ones running the < 100 w. rigs
who will be heard by fewer stations as time goes by.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 11:48 AM,   wrote:
> Field enforcement activity by the FCC in my field (broadcasting) is
> very low.
>
> In my fight against modern traffic light system interference I was able
> to get a field engineer to visit - and he confirmed the signals were
> far beyond Part 15  and were indeed causing interference - but he was
> unwilling to take any action.  He said you can't fight City Hall, and
> people should just tune to a stronger station if the noise bothers
> them.  Sigh.
>
> Steve WD8DAS
>
> sbjohns...@aol.com
> http://www.wd8das.net/
> 
> Radio is your best entertainment value.
> 
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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Mike Sawyer]

Rob, (et al),
I wouldn't count on the ARRgghhL doing anything to help you other than 
send you a few pamphlets. A good friend of mine went through the "Neighbors 
complaint about ham radio in their stereo" routine. Every time he lit off 
his T-368, he would get phone calls. It got so bad that it became a 
political issue. The neighbors complained to the mayor and the mayor told my 
friend "I'm going to shut you down!" This made the local news as well. 
Anyway, one day he gets a phone call from the FCC office out of NYC. They 
want to come down and check his station out, see how he operates, etc. Two 
guys from the FCC show their credentials and say they want to run tests etc. 
Only one of the neighbors was home at the time so the other guy went there 
and listened to the stereo while the one stayed with my friend at his 
station. He tuned his T-368 for 375watts stating that was all he was allowed 
to operate at. The FCC tech instructed him to tune for max power out. They 
went through all the bands and found some slight audio reaching the stereo 
on 40M but that was it. They packed up. Told my friend that they loved all 
the classic radios that he had there and they thought they were cool. The 
tech also told him not to worry that his signal was clean and with in the 
parameters of his license. When my friend referred about what the mayor had 
threatened him with. The guy said, "WE are the ones that say WHO may operate 
and WHO MAY NOT!!! Don't worry about your mayor, we will take care of him." 
Nothing else came of the issue other than the fact the mayor lost to his 
opponent in the upcoming election.
When I asked my friend if the (be)League(d) did anything for him. He 
just pick up a pamphlet that said how to keep RFI out of your house, (about 
a 2 page pamphlet).
Thus began and feeds my cynicism about the ARRgghhL to this day.
Mod-U-Lator,
Mike(y)
W3SLK
- Original Message - 
From: "Rob Atkinson" 
To: "Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service" 

Cc: "JAMES HANLON" 
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System


You can certainly avail yourself of the FCC but before you start
contacting them I would (after following through with your plan to
make sure something your neighbor has, is indeed the problem) attempt
to work something out with your neighbor first.  I have been through
the RFI dance myself on the sending and receiving ends.  You must be
mindful  that your neighbor is happily operating his appliance
oblivious to your misery so be in a calm and polite frame of mind.  It
can be a big help if you bring along a portable sw rx so you can stand
there with it tuned to a clear 40 m. frequency and have it blast out
the RFI to demonstrate what you are dealing with.  Don't start going
off on being a licensed station, Federal Law, Part 15 or any of that
just yet.  You may be surprised at how cooperative they might be --
they might even offer to disable the thing until it can be fixed.  Not
everyone is a crab (at least not everyone here in the midwest).
It is tempting to charge in and blow a gasket when you have your
operating wrecked, i know as I am dealing with that now on 75 and 160
but do your homework first and know what to do about the appliance so
you have some measures ready if it does turn out to be this X10 thing.
 You'll have to have a plan to explain to them once you start talking
to them.  You can get some ideas on how to deal with this stuff from
the ARRL Tech. Info. Service on their website, or call them and talk
to someone there on the phone and use google to hunt for RFI
information on these things.  Also the RFI reflector at contesting.com
has a searchable archive you can go through in case this has been
dealt with in the past.   ARRL has a list of hams, I think many are
lawyers, who are experienced at being ombudsmen and helping you work
with a 3rd party unknowingly causing you RFI.  At this point if you
contact FCC they will probably just tell you to do everything I am
advising you to do first.  I believe they consider themselves a last
resort.  99% of the time, these things are resolved without them
getting involved.  If, unfortunately, your X10 folks are nasty then
you have established a series of failed attempts at seeking a
resolution and once you and maybe an intermediary have failed, and you
have documented this, then you'll probably be able to get the FCC to
intervene.   One other thing is it's a good idea to have a RFI kit bag
of common suppression items to take with you or have in your car.  I
have found it nice to have a bunch of ferrite snap on beads,
doughnuts, and rods of various materials, usually 31, maybe 77, J or F
--anything that is effective below 20 meters where I usually operate,
plus some tools, flashlight, electrical tape, some extension cords, 10
and 20 foot lengths of 75 ohm coax wi

Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[sbjohnston]

Field enforcement activity by the FCC in my field (broadcasting) is 
very low.

In my fight against modern traffic light system interference I was able 
to get a field engineer to visit - and he confirmed the signals were 
far beyond Part 15  and were indeed causing interference - but he was 
unwilling to take any action.  He said you can't fight City Hall, and 
people should just tune to a stronger station if the noise bothers 
them.  Sigh.

Steve WD8DAS

sbjohns...@aol.com
http://www.wd8das.net/

Radio is your best entertainment value.






-Original Message-
From: Bry Carling 
To: AM Radio 
Sent: Fri, Jan 22, 2010 8:50 am
Subject: Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System


Do any of you guys have any idea as to how many Field Engineers the
FCC employs?  NOT many! The last time I checked,  they had a grand
total of TWO for the southeast United States. Out of Atlanta.

Do you really think they are going to go out and get involved with
this when they have all of the enforcement for maritime, amateur,
CB, Broadcast radio and TV to worry about? Personally I doubt it .
Although they did once visit my station when a neighbour complained
of RFI. I was exonnerated!

From:   "james.liles" 

>  Don't know exactly how to do
> that but I will, and I'll verify the source, manufacture, and model
> of the
> rogue equipment.  Then I'll send a note to the FCC and copy this
> reflector
> with the response

(multiple CC:s removed)

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Robert A. Poff WB3AWJ]

It can be quite interesting approaching someone who innocently is a source of 
interference. 



Years ago when I worked in two-way we had a problem with interference on the 
input of a customers repeater. 

A signal would come and go, sounded like TV raster. Was strong enough to take 
out the lower power mobiles, which generally 

were about 15 miles from the repeater. 



We started hunting it from the repeater site. Ended up in a nearby town, then 
into a neighborhood. By then it was so strong that we had trouble 

isolating one house. Noticed a UHF dish on one tower. I said to my boss "I bet 
someone who's that interested has a preamp up there". 

We were right. He pulled the power to the preamp, and the signal went away. 



But we had to do come explaining how his TV was interfering with security guys 
twenty five miles away. 

Luckily we took a receiver into his house, could hear the interference, and 
that it went away when he killed the preamp. 



Even still, I'd rather approach the person than ever call the Commission. 

After having my radio station inspected twice, I'd rather keep my distance.  

And then there's the story of a guy I knew who complained to the Commission 
about a competitor and ended up being given a LONG list of violations himself. 



Bob 

WB3AWJ 

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Paul Christensen]

> "Years ago my young son bought one of those scooters with his own
> hard-earned money..."

Steve,

The switch-mode chargers used for scooters are notoriously noisy.  I had a 
similar issue with the neighbor to the side of me.  These supplies offer 
little or no common-mode filtering between the switcher circuit and the AC 
line.

In my own home, several SMPS have caused interference.  I have been 
replacing SMPS types with used, industrial linear supplies (e.g., Lambda, 
PowerOne, etc.)   Many SMPS designs are fine and produce no interference. 
The most problematic chargers seem to be imported from Asia and/or are 
imbedded into our household appliances where they are exempt from Part 15 
certification.  Part 15 requires an entire re-write since the proliferation 
of microprocessors and SMPS devices in common household appliances over the 
past decade.

Paul, W9AC

 

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Bry Carling]

Do any of you guys have any idea as to how many Field Engineers the 
FCC employs?  NOT many! The last time I checked,  they had a grand 
total of TWO for the southeast United States. Out of Atlanta. 

Do you really think they are going to go out and get involved with 
this when they have all of the enforcement for maritime, amateur, 
CB, Broadcast radio and TV to worry about? Personally I doubt it .
Although they did once visit my station when a neighbour complained 
of RFI. I was exonnerated!

From:   "james.liles" 

>  Don't know exactly how to do
> that but I will, and I'll verify the source, manufacture, and model
> of the
> rogue equipment.  Then I'll send a note to the FCC and copy this
> reflector
> with the response

(multiple CC:s removed)

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[sbjohnston]

Years ago my young son bought one of those scooters with his own 
hard-earned money, and the battery charger was a noisy mess just as you 
found.  I threw it away and build a lead-acid charger for the scooter.  
It had the extra benefit of being able to charge the battery faster, 
then float.  He was back on the road sooner with the homebuilt unit.

Steve WD8DAS

sbjohns...@aol.com
http://www.wd8das.net/

Radio is your best entertainment value.






-Original Message-
From: Jay Bromley 
To: Discussion of AM Radio in the Amateur Service 

Sent: Fri, Jan 22, 2010 12:38 am
Subject: Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System


Hi Jim,
I just went through nearly a year of this!  You would not believe how 
wide
or how far those signals from a little battery charger can go.  Over and
down the next street from my house that was about 1/8 a mike away!  Also
what made this even worse it was HF only!  With the help of my local 
hams,
we used a IC706 MKII G mobile to narrow it down to one house only. Once 
I
found the which house was causing the problem I had the local utility
company investigate.  The main reason I wanted them there was to have a
uniform person explain to the owner why we were looking for interference
coming from their house.  Nothing worse than to have someone come up 
with a
silly looking radio and having a bazaar story!  However the power 
company
RFI specialists came and went without letting me know he was up there.  
He
called my house as he was leaving town and said the house was clean.  
Sadly
they only used test gear that covers VHF only.  Ugh!  I said no it is 
not
clean and held up the phone to my HF receiver letting him hear what 
sounded
like a mad ticking clock.  I had even explained to him before hand why I
wanted him there, but I guess it didn't make sense to him and it was 
Sorry
Charlie for the most part after that.

  I was sort of lucky in that the home owners had the house for sale and 
were
already moved, but left there stuff behind for the time being.  The 
realtor
seemed to want to cooperate, but it took a few months to finally get 
him to
let me in the house.   In the mean time I was looking at similar 
recordings,
everything from electric blankets to swimming pool pumps.  I was loaned 
a
Sony shortwave handheld receiver for testing.  When I finally caught up 
to
the realtor, it wasn't as easy to find as I had hoped for.   Armed with 
the
Sony handheld as we entered the house every wall was hot from this bogus
signal, so finally had to resort to turning off breakers that were 
unmarked.
Of coarse it was the last breaker that finally killed the signal.  Then 
we
turned on all the lights in every room trying to figure out which room 
this
breaker was on.  What made matters worse we couldn't find the room or 
the
outlet affected and the realtor was in a hurry to leave.  He wanted 
just to
leave the breaker off, but I didn't want to do this as you never know 
what
problems this could have caused and I would be blamed for.  Liability 
is not
something to be taken lightly.

Finally we were back in the packed garage where the breaker panel was 
and I
saw a cord going to an outlet I hadn't seen before.  It was behind a 
huge
stack of boxes.  I had nothing to lose so I pulled the plug and bingo 
signal
was gone!  I couldn't see what was on the other end of the cord, but 
pulled
on it till I came up to a back plastic box with the name JingCheng.  It 
was
a battery changer alright with the plug missing on the end.  Nearby was 
the
kid's battery powered scooter with the same name.  I plugged it back in 
one
last time to show the realtor this what was causing the interferencing
ticking sound over the Sony handheld.  The charger had two LED's, one 
green
and one red, every time the red LED fired off the you could here the 
ticking
or pulse on the Sony handheld.  BTW, the ticking sound was about two 
ticks
per second.

I really wanted to do something to that charger, but it wasn't my 
property.
So far the owners have made it home for the holidays and the signal 
hasn't
returned.  I told the realtor they were lucky this cheap piece of junk
didn't start a house fire.  Most of the stuff inside the house was
unplugged, but everything electrical in the garage was left plugged in. 
 I
did my best to impress the realtor to tell the owners they needed to 
destroy
this fire hazard.  If they move back I am sure at some point I will 
either
have to buy them a new charger or filter it if I want to live in peace. 
 I
would be glad to do it even though it is not required for me to do so.

I can not tell you what a relief all this is to finally have a quieter
receiver.  I still have some interference from other sources, but they 
are
low in comparison and I can move around them.  The other day

Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Jay Bromley]

Hi Jim,
I just went through nearly a year of this!  You would not believe how wide
or how far those signals from a little battery charger can go.  Over and
down the next street from my house that was about 1/8 a mike away!  Also
what made this even worse it was HF only!  With the help of my local hams,
we used a IC706 MKII G mobile to narrow it down to one house only. Once I
found the which house was causing the problem I had the local utility
company investigate.  The main reason I wanted them there was to have a
uniform person explain to the owner why we were looking for interference
coming from their house.  Nothing worse than to have someone come up with a
silly looking radio and having a bazaar story!  However the power company
RFI specialists came and went without letting me know he was up there.  He
called my house as he was leaving town and said the house was clean.  Sadly
they only used test gear that covers VHF only.  Ugh!  I said no it is not
clean and held up the phone to my HF receiver letting him hear what sounded
like a mad ticking clock.  I had even explained to him before hand why I
wanted him there, but I guess it didn't make sense to him and it was Sorry
Charlie for the most part after that.

 I was sort of lucky in that the home owners had the house for sale and were
already moved, but left there stuff behind for the time being.  The realtor
seemed to want to cooperate, but it took a few months to finally get him to
let me in the house.   In the mean time I was looking at similar recordings,
everything from electric blankets to swimming pool pumps.  I was loaned a
Sony shortwave handheld receiver for testing.  When I finally caught up to
the realtor, it wasn't as easy to find as I had hoped for.   Armed with the
Sony handheld as we entered the house every wall was hot from this bogus
signal, so finally had to resort to turning off breakers that were unmarked.
Of coarse it was the last breaker that finally killed the signal.  Then we
turned on all the lights in every room trying to figure out which room this
breaker was on.  What made matters worse we couldn't find the room or the
outlet affected and the realtor was in a hurry to leave.  He wanted just to
leave the breaker off, but I didn't want to do this as you never know what
problems this could have caused and I would be blamed for.  Liability is not
something to be taken lightly.

Finally we were back in the packed garage where the breaker panel was and I
saw a cord going to an outlet I hadn't seen before.  It was behind a huge
stack of boxes.  I had nothing to lose so I pulled the plug and bingo signal
was gone!  I couldn't see what was on the other end of the cord, but pulled
on it till I came up to a back plastic box with the name JingCheng.  It was
a battery changer alright with the plug missing on the end.  Nearby was the
kid's battery powered scooter with the same name.  I plugged it back in one
last time to show the realtor this what was causing the interferencing
ticking sound over the Sony handheld.  The charger had two LED's, one green
and one red, every time the red LED fired off the you could here the ticking
or pulse on the Sony handheld.  BTW, the ticking sound was about two ticks
per second.

I really wanted to do something to that charger, but it wasn't my property.
So far the owners have made it home for the holidays and the signal hasn't
returned.  I told the realtor they were lucky this cheap piece of junk
didn't start a house fire.  Most of the stuff inside the house was
unplugged, but everything electrical in the garage was left plugged in.  I
did my best to impress the realtor to tell the owners they needed to destroy
this fire hazard.  If they move back I am sure at some point I will either
have to buy them a new charger or filter it if I want to live in peace.  I
would be glad to do it even though it is not required for me to do so.

I can not tell you what a relief all this is to finally have a quieter
receiver.  I still have some interference from other sources, but they are
low in comparison and I can move around them.  The other day I was talking
to a ham on the air that works for a utility company that tells me this is
just the beginning!  This is not good and I believe him.

On the web here is sort of what the scooter looked like:
http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Electric-scooter/p/sm/1026003867.htm

Here is the link to JingCheng:
http://yzjingcheng.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008826203492/Homepage.htm

Sadly this company makes a ton of products and I am sure most of them are
cutting corners like in the kid's scooter's battery charger.  The make
everything from Scooters to garage doors, you can bet if it has a switching
power supply with their name on it will be dirty as all get out.

73 de w5jay/jay..




> Sometime in the recent past there was a ham in Houston, TX (I believe)
> who had interference that he traced to a neighbor who had two of those
> electric scooters, one for him and one for

Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Rob Atkinson]

You can certainly avail yourself of the FCC but before you start
contacting them I would (after following through with your plan to
make sure something your neighbor has, is indeed the problem) attempt
to work something out with your neighbor first.  I have been through
the RFI dance myself on the sending and receiving ends.  You must be
mindful  that your neighbor is happily operating his appliance
oblivious to your misery so be in a calm and polite frame of mind.  It
can be a big help if you bring along a portable sw rx so you can stand
there with it tuned to a clear 40 m. frequency and have it blast out
the RFI to demonstrate what you are dealing with.  Don't start going
off on being a licensed station, Federal Law, Part 15 or any of that
just yet.  You may be surprised at how cooperative they might be --
they might even offer to disable the thing until it can be fixed.  Not
everyone is a crab (at least not everyone here in the midwest).
It is tempting to charge in and blow a gasket when you have your
operating wrecked, i know as I am dealing with that now on 75 and 160
but do your homework first and know what to do about the appliance so
you have some measures ready if it does turn out to be this X10 thing.
 You'll have to have a plan to explain to them once you start talking
to them.  You can get some ideas on how to deal with this stuff from
the ARRL Tech. Info. Service on their website, or call them and talk
to someone there on the phone and use google to hunt for RFI
information on these things.  Also the RFI reflector at contesting.com
has a searchable archive you can go through in case this has been
dealt with in the past.   ARRL has a list of hams, I think many are
lawyers, who are experienced at being ombudsmen and helping you work
with a 3rd party unknowingly causing you RFI.  At this point if you
contact FCC they will probably just tell you to do everything I am
advising you to do first.  I believe they consider themselves a last
resort.  99% of the time, these things are resolved without them
getting involved.  If, unfortunately, your X10 folks are nasty then
you have established a series of failed attempts at seeking a
resolution and once you and maybe an intermediary have failed, and you
have documented this, then you'll probably be able to get the FCC to
intervene.   One other thing is it's a good idea to have a RFI kit bag
of common suppression items to take with you or have in your car.  I
have found it nice to have a bunch of ferrite snap on beads,
doughnuts, and rods of various materials, usually 31, maybe 77, J or F
--anything that is effective below 20 meters where I usually operate,
plus some tools, flashlight, electrical tape, some extension cords, 10
and 20 foot lengths of 75 ohm coax with F males, phone line filters,
and anything else you can think of for fixing a problem.  People are
usually a lot more agreeable once they realize they won't have to
shell out any money.  If a switching supply wall wart is causing grief
for example, just replace it with a linear supply and add it to the
cost of being a HF ham these days.

73

Rob
K5UJ

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 9:10 PM, james.liles  wrote:
> Hi Jim:
> May have been a coincidence that the same home started radiating a sweep that 
> behaves like spread spectrum 7.1mc to 8.5mc at the same time that the 
> security/control system was installed.  I hate to knock on a neighbors door 
> and ask to walk around with a probe looking for illegal or inappropriate 
> sources of radio interference.  Don't know exactly how to do that but I will, 
> and I'll verify the source, manufacture, and model of the rogue equipment.  
> Then I'll send a note to the FCC and copy this reflector with the response.  
> If they are willing to engage the problem, I'll apologize for inferring that 
> they are driven by money alone and maybe enjoy the 40 meter band again.  
> Kindest regards Jim K9AXN
>  - Original Message -
>  From: JAMES HANLON
>  To: james.li...@comcast.net
>  Cc: AMradio
>  Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:51 PM
>  Subject: QRM fron Neighbor's Security System
>
>
>  Jim,
>
>  You reported the following.  "I have recorded a problem like this with an 
> 8566B in peak mode.  There is a
>  continuous sweep from about 7.1mc to 8.5mc at a two to five second rate.
>  Traced it to a neighbor who just installed the X10 security and home control
>  system.  It's using the spread spectrum protocol and under 100mw but at 300
>  feet, makes 40 meters unusable.  Appears that the FCC has lost control to
>  dollars."
>
>  If I had a problem like that, I would discuss it with Ed Hare, W1RFI, the 
> ARRL Laboratory Manager.  Ed is quite active in fighting RFI, especially that 
> involved with BPL systems.  I am pretty sure that you do not have to just 
> accept whatever QRM is generated by your neighbor's unlicensed security 
> system.  Ed would advise you on your rights and on how to proceed.  You can 
> reach him at w1...@arrl.org .
>
>  Jim Hanlon, 

Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[james.liles]

Hi Jim:
May have been a coincidence that the same home started radiating a sweep that 
behaves like spread spectrum 7.1mc to 8.5mc at the same time that the 
security/control system was installed.  I hate to knock on a neighbors door and 
ask to walk around with a probe looking for illegal or inappropriate sources of 
radio interference.  Don't know exactly how to do that but I will, and I'll 
verify the source, manufacture, and model of the rogue equipment.  Then I'll 
send a note to the FCC and copy this reflector with the response.  If they are 
willing to engage the problem, I'll apologize for inferring that they are 
driven by money alone and maybe enjoy the 40 meter band again.  Kindest regards 
Jim K9AXN
  - Original Message - 
  From: JAMES HANLON 
  To: james.li...@comcast.net 
  Cc: AMradio 
  Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 6:51 PM
  Subject: QRM fron Neighbor's Security System


  Jim,

  You reported the following.  "I have recorded a problem like this with an 
8566B in peak mode.  There is a 
  continuous sweep from about 7.1mc to 8.5mc at a two to five second rate. 
  Traced it to a neighbor who just installed the X10 security and home control 
  system.  It's using the spread spectrum protocol and under 100mw but at 300 
  feet, makes 40 meters unusable.  Appears that the FCC has lost control to 
  dollars."

  If I had a problem like that, I would discuss it with Ed Hare, W1RFI, the 
ARRL Laboratory Manager.  Ed is quite active in fighting RFI, especially that 
involved with BPL systems.  I am pretty sure that you do not have to just 
accept whatever QRM is generated by your neighbor's unlicensed security system. 
 Ed would advise you on your rights and on how to proceed.  You can reach him 
at w1...@arrl.org .  

  Jim Hanlon, W8KGI

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Jim Wilhite]

Sometime in the recent past there was a ham in Houston, TX (I believe) 
who had interference that he traced to a neighbor who had two of those 
electric scooters, one for him and one for his wife.  The noise was on 
every night and the battery charge circuits put trash on the AC lines 
that tore up the amateur bands.

He contacted the neighbor and told him of the problem so the neighbor 
allowed him to install filters in the lines used to charge the 
batteries.  That fixed the problem, so the ham thought.  Evidently the 
scooter owners did not like the filters and removed them.  The ham tried 
for months to get the owners to reinstall the filters but they would 
not.

The rest of the story is short.  The FCC enforcement group finally 
interceded and sent letters (more than one) telling the owners to put 
the filters back in place.  They ignored the letters and it cost them 
some fine, the amount I don't recall.  Sad deal for two people who 
refused to follow the rules.  But if you have an unintentional radiator 
then you can, after a process, get something done about it.

If you are an ARRL member, contact Ed Hare, W1RFI and get some help. 
That will shorten the wait.

73

Jim/W5JO




- Original Message - 



>I am not familiar with this particular system, but most X-10 equipment 
>uses
> the home's power lines for transmission. If you are both on the same
> transformer, you may be getting interference from your home's power 
> line. You
> may need some power line filtering. Depending on your gear, you may be
> subject  to Part 15 rules which basically say that your equipment must 
> accept
> various  forms of interference. Regardless, it is a sticky wicket.

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[sbjohnston]

Part 15 devices have to be shut down if they interfere with any other 
licensed radio service.  It can be difficult at times to make that 
stick, but it *is* the rule.  Doesn't matter their mode or power.

Steve WD8DAS

sbjohns...@aol.com
http://www.wd8das.net/

Radio is your best entertainment value.






-Original Message-
From: JAMES HANLON 
To: james.li...@comcast.net
Cc: AMradio 
Sent: Thu, Jan 21, 2010 6:51 pm
Subject: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System


Jim,

You reported the following.  "I have recorded a problem like this with 
an 8566B
in peak mode.  There is a
continuous sweep from about 7.1mc to 8.5mc at a two to five second 
rate.
Traced it to a neighbor who just installed the X10 security and home 
control
system.  It's using the spread spectrum protocol and under 100mw but at 
300
feet, makes 40 meters unusable.  Appears that the FCC has lost control 
to
dollars."

If I had a problem like that, I would discuss it with Ed Hare, W1RFI, 
the ARRL
Laboratory Manager.  Ed is quite active in fighting RFI, especially 
that
involved with BPL systems.  I am pretty sure that you do not have to 
just accept
whatever QRM is generated by your neighbor's unlicensed security 
system.  Ed
would advise you on your rights and on how to proceed.  You can reach 
him at
w1...@arrl.org<mailto:w1...@arrl.org> .

Jim Hanlon, W8KGI

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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[w4awm]

I am not familiar with this particular system, but most X-10 equipment uses 
 the home's power lines for transmission. If you are both on the same  
transformer, you may be getting interference from your home's power line. You  
may need some power line filtering. Depending on your gear, you may be 
subject  to Part 15 rules which basically say that your equipment must accept 
various  forms of interference. Regardless, it is a sticky wicket.
 
A friend once had a problem with a town house neighbor whose porch light  
shined directly into his bedroom window. He used to get up with the sunrise 
so  he didn't want to pull down his blinds and the neighbor refused to shield 
his  spotlight or turn it off when he retired. Since they shared common 
power lines,  my friend got an X-10 control and proceeded to play havoc with 
all the  neighbor's X-10 devices. Now the neighbor turns the light off when he 
goes to  bed.
 
Where there is a will.
 
73,
 
John,  W4AWM
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Re: [AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[Todd, KA1KAQ]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 7:51 PM, JAMES HANLON  wrote:
> Jim,

> If I had a problem like that, I would discuss it with Ed Hare, W1RFI, the 
> ARRL Laboratory Manager.  Ed is quite active in fighting RFI, especially that 
> involved with BPL systems.  I am pretty sure that you do not have to just 
> accept whatever QRM is generated by your neighbor's unlicensed security 
> system.  Ed would advise you on your rights and on how to proceed.  You can 
> reach him at w1...@arrl.org .

Or if all else fails, turn up the wick and see how long it takes your
neighbor to find a different security system. (o:

~ Todd,  KA1KAQ/4
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[AMRadio] QRM fron Neighbor's Security System

[JAMES HANLON]

Jim,

You reported the following.  "I have recorded a problem like this with an 8566B 
in peak mode.  There is a 
continuous sweep from about 7.1mc to 8.5mc at a two to five second rate. 
Traced it to a neighbor who just installed the X10 security and home control 
system.  It's using the spread spectrum protocol and under 100mw but at 300 
feet, makes 40 meters unusable.  Appears that the FCC has lost control to 
dollars."

If I had a problem like that, I would discuss it with Ed Hare, W1RFI, the ARRL 
Laboratory Manager.  Ed is quite active in fighting RFI, especially that 
involved with BPL systems.  I am pretty sure that you do not have to just 
accept whatever QRM is generated by your neighbor's unlicensed security system. 
 Ed would advise you on your rights and on how to proceed.  You can reach him 
at w1...@arrl.org .  

Jim Hanlon, W8KGI

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