[amsat-bb] NF
hi, sorry I'm new how exactly NF at Yaesu FT-847 transceiver for UHF 437,325 mhz ( 69 cm ) ? Thank's Fitri Rahmawati - Indonesia ___ Sent via amsat...@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting
Hi Ralph, W0RPK I will write the formula in another arithmetical form: NF = ( Vi x 10^-6 )^2 ) x 20 ) / (BW x S/N ) ) log) x 10 ) + 174 dB 10 where: Vi = input signal in uV applied over the 50 ohm RX input BW = Band Wide in Hz (2400 Hz for SSB) S/N = Signal to Noise ratio in power ratio = 10 Going to your YAESU FT-726 R the sensitivity is specified for 10 dB of (S+N)/N and not for 10 dB of S/N so that we must convert first (S+N)/N into S/N with the following formula: S + N S/N = --- - 1 = 10 log (10-1) = 9.54 in power ratio N10 Calculating the sensitivity for 2 meters SSB/CW less than 0.15 uV for 10 dB (S+N)/N we have: NF =( 0.15 x 10^-6)^2 ) x 20 ) / ( 2400 x 9.54 ) ) log) x 10 ) + 174 = 6.9 dB dB 10 Calculating the sensitivity for 70 cm SSB/CW less than 0.15 uV for 12 dB (S+N)/N we have: S + N S/N = --- - 1 = 10 log (15.84 -1) = 14.84 in power ratio N10 NF = (0.15 x 10^-6 )^2 ) x 20 ) / ( 2400 x 14.84 ) ) log ) x 10 ) + 174 = 5.01 dB dB 10 CONCLUSION: The sensitivity in 2 meters and 70 cm is the same 0.15 uV but in 70 cm 0.15 uV are specified for 12 dB (S+N)/N and not 10 dB (S+N)/N as in 2 meters and so it happen that the receiver is more sensitive in 70 cm The formulas where published into an old issue of the Ham Radio Magazine early about 1973 and I have to find it in my many papers after that I will send a copy to you but I remember it very often ant this numbars are burned into my brain HI HI ! I hope this helps and if you have any question please let me know. 73" de i8CVS Domenico - Original Message - From: Ralph Wallio, W0RPK To: domenico.i8...@tin.it Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 4:48 PM Subject: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting Domenico -- Thanks for posting the NF formula. Your results for the ICOM IC-R10 cause me to reconsider what I have been estimating for my much older YAESU FT-726R. Specifications from the Yaesu Operating Manual: 2m SSB/CW Less than 0.15uV for 10dB (S+N)/N 70cm SSB/CW Less than 0.15uV for 12dB (S+N)/N I would like to make this calculation myself but I am having trouble duplicating your results probably due to uncertainties resulting from how the formula is formatted by AMSAT-BB. Perhaps you have a document source to suggest that will resolve these uncertainties. TNX es 73 de Ralph W0RPK ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting
Domenico nice explanation please send the papers to the list Thanks nick -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of i8cvs Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 10:24 PM To: AMSAT-BB; Ralph Wallio, W0RPK Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting Hi Ralph, W0RPK I will write the formula in another arithmetical form: NF = ( Vi x 10^-6 )^2 ) x 20 ) / (BW x S/N ) ) log) x 10 ) + 174 dB 10 where: Vi = input signal in uV applied over the 50 ohm RX input BW = Band Wide in Hz (2400 Hz for SSB) S/N = Signal to Noise ratio in power ratio = 10 Going to your YAESU FT-726 R the sensitivity is specified for 10 dB of (S+N)/N and not for 10 dB of S/N so that we must convert first (S+N)/N into S/N with the following formula: S + N S/N = --- - 1 = 10 log (10-1) = 9.54 in power ratio N10 Calculating the sensitivity for 2 meters SSB/CW less than 0.15 uV for 10 dB (S+N)/N we have: NF =( 0.15 x 10^-6)^2 ) x 20 ) / ( 2400 x 9.54 ) ) log) x 10 ) + 174 = 6.9 dB dB 10 Calculating the sensitivity for 70 cm SSB/CW less than 0.15 uV for 12 dB (S+N)/N we have: S + N S/N = --- - 1 = 10 log (15.84 -1) = 14.84 in power ratio N10 NF = (0.15 x 10^-6 )^2 ) x 20 ) / ( 2400 x 14.84 ) ) log ) x 10 ) + 174 = 5.01 dB dB 10 CONCLUSION: The sensitivity in 2 meters and 70 cm is the same 0.15 uV but in 70 cm 0.15 uV are specified for 12 dB (S+N)/N and not 10 dB (S+N)/N as in 2 meters and so it happen that the receiver is more sensitive in 70 cm The formulas where published into an old issue of the Ham Radio Magazine early about 1973 and I have to find it in my many papers after that I will send a copy to you but I remember it very often ant this numbars are burned into my brain HI HI ! I hope this helps and if you have any question please let me know. 73" de i8CVS Domenico - Original Message - From: Ralph Wallio, W0RPK To: domenico.i8...@tin.it Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 4:48 PM Subject: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting Domenico -- Thanks for posting the NF formula. Your results for the ICOM IC-R10 cause me to reconsider what I have been estimating for my much older YAESU FT-726R. Specifications from the Yaesu Operating Manual: 2m SSB/CW Less than 0.15uV for 10dB (S+N)/N 70cm SSB/CW Less than 0.15uV for 12dB (S+N)/N I would like to make this calculation myself but I am having trouble duplicating your results probably due to uncertainties resulting from how the formula is formatted by AMSAT-BB. Perhaps you have a document source to suggest that will resolve these uncertainties. TNX es 73 de Ralph W0RPK ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] [Re: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting (amended)
Hi Ralph, W0RPK and All on the list. Unfortunately in my previous message i have taped few mistake but hopefully the following calculation are actually correct. I have rewrite the formula in another arithmetical form wich is easier to be used and not is corrupted or differently formatted sending it through BB NF = ( Vi x 10^-6 )^2 ) x 20 ) / (BW x S/N ) ) log) x 10 ) + 174 dB 10 where: Vi = input signal in uV applied across the 50 ohm RX input BW = Bandwidth in Hz (2400 Hz for SSB) S/N = Signal to Noise ratio in power ratio The sensitivity for YAESU FT-726R of W0RPK in 2 meters is specified for 10 dB of (S+N)/N and not for 10 dB of S/N as required by the formula so that we must convert first (S+N)/N into S/N as follow. S + N S/N = --- - 1 = (10-1) = 9 in power ratio N Calculation of NF for sensitivity of 2 meters SSB/CW less than 0.15 uV for 10 dB (S+N)/N ... we compute: NF= ( 0.15 x 10^-6)^2 ) x 20 ) / ( 2400 x 9 ) ) log) x 10 ) + 174 = 7.18 dB dB 10 - The sensitivity for YAESU FT-726 R of W0RPK in 70 cm is specified for 12 dB of (S+N)/N and not for 10 dB of S/N as required by the formula so that we must convert first (S+N)/N into S/N as follow: S/N = ( S + N ) / N ) - 1 = 10^( 12/10) ) -1 = 15.84 - 1 = 14.84 in power ratio Calculation of NF for sensitivity of 70 cm SSB/CW less than 0.15 uV for a 12 dB (S+N)/N ratio.. we compute: NF= (0.15 x 10^-6 )^2 ) x 20 ) / ( 2400 x 14.84 ) ) log ) x 10 ) +174 = 5.01 dB dB 10 CONCLUSION: 2 meters: Noise Figure NF = 7.18 dB 70 cm: Noise Figure NF = 5.01 dB The sensitivity voltage in 2 meters and 70 cm has the same value of 0.15 uV but in 70 cm 0.15 uV are specified for a 12 dB (S+N)/N ratio and not for a ratio of 10 dB (S+N)/N as in 2 meters and so it happens that the receiver is more sensitive in 70 cm Please note that the above formula is valid only for Vi = input signal in uV applied across the 50 ohm RX input. Unfortunately the manufacturers do not specify if Vi of the sensitivity specifications is the voltage that we read with the RF Signal Generator connected to the receiver input or if Vi is the voltage that we read over the Signal Generator with open output. This can generate ambiguity in calculating NF because measurement are made with a Signal Generator with 50 ohm impedance output connected to the receiver input wich impedance is as well 50 ohm so that the output voltage of the Signal Generator is divided in two equal parts across both the internal 50 ohm impedances. BTW many commercial receiver NF calculations are demonstrating that the value of NF match very well with the input voltage Vi so that we can assume that the manufacturers specifications are giving Vi as the voltage applied across the 50 ohm receiver input. The formulas where published into an old issue of the Ham Radio Magazine early about 1973 and I have to find it in my many papers after that I will send a copy to any one is interested to it. I use this formula very often and this numbars are burned into my brain HI HI ! Please Ralph let me know if your calculations match with the actual one ?! I hope this helps and if there is any question please let me know. 73" de i8CVS Domenico - Original Message - From: Ralph Wallio, W0RPK To: domenico.i8...@tin.it Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 4:48 PM Subject: AMSAT-BB NF formula posting Domenico -- Thanks for posting the NF formula. Your results for the ICOM IC-R10 cause me to reconsider what I have been estimating for my much older YAESU FT-726R. Specifications from the Yaesu Operating Manual: 2m SSB/CW Less than 0.15uV for 10dB (S+N)/N 70cm SSB/CW Less than 0.15uV for 12dB (S+N)/N I would like to make this calculation myself but I am having trouble duplicating your results probably due to uncertainties resulting from how the formula is formatted by AMSAT-BB. Perhaps you have a document source to suggest that will resolve these uncertainties. TNX es 73 de Ralph W0RPK ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
