[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Several others have written in support, and I only wish more would have done so publicly. I wasn't going to reply to this thread when it started because I feel quite strongly about the subject and didn't want to say something I would later regret. However as I feel I need to show my support for Drew's decision, here goes. First of all I think Drew was right to do what he did, over here in Europe things are pretty much the same, in fact I have heard worse than the recording posted here earlier in the week. I have experienced the same frustration that I imagine Drew did when he had others deliberately stomp all over him, it's not nice, especially when it's the same stations day in and day out. While I dont always agree with Drew's attitude to people here on -bb, on this occasion I do support him in what he did - and appreciate both his efforts in looking after the sat and those of the other command stations (and of course others behind the scenes who dont always get a mention) There has been a lot of talk about what can't be done to rectify the situation.. we need to have a more positive approach to this and look at what can be done. Our license states that it is an offence to cause interference - If it is intentional or not, it is interference - some people have compared it to a HF pileup, yes there is that side to it, but that doesn't mean we cant do something about those regular users who continually make a nuisance of themselves by stomping all over other stations, be it deliberate or not - it is interference. If you cant make a contact on the sat without regularly causing interference, then it's either time to look at asking for help with your station setup and operating practices or consider another aspect of the hobby. The ham radio governing bodies (ARRL, RSGB etc) are perhaps in a better position to offer assistance to contact those who don't hang out on here or have contact details on QRZ.com etc. For those people who choose to ignore the advise and continue to cause interference by stomping all over users then perhaps if a few complaints were lodged with the licensing authority it may help. I know it won't cure the problem totally but wouldn't it help? - those who are that way inclined will think twice before making a total nuisance of themselves on the air, and those that choose to ignore the thought of having their license revoked may well just get a letter forwarded to them by their national Amsat organisation via the ARRL or RSGB etc, or repeat offenders from the licensing authority. To reiterate, i'm not talking about the new operators, we were all new once. I'm talking about the regular offenders who are just plain rude and cant wait their turn, or greedy and think it is their right to have X amount of contacts per pass no matter how much interference they cause. Just some suggestions, it may take a little time and effort but also it may well pay off in the long run. Here in Europe there are several stations who pass after pass just stomp all over other users and make AO-51 in particular not a nice place to be. I would certainly never consider using AO-51 as a satellite to do a demo on to beginners when these guys are around. However, the last few days on AO-51 have been a pleasure to work since the switch and if it continues like this (doubtful) then a demo on AO-51 would most definitley be a possibility. Remember, the use of AO-51 is a privilege, not a right. Treat it, and it's users with the respect it/they deserve. Ok, rant over. Keep up the good work Drew, Mark, Gould and all the team at Amsat-NA 73 Pete 2i0VAX ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Okay, I'll go public as well. I sent Clint a private email. I disagree
with what Drew did. I appreciate he has a truly thankless job. I have
nothing but respect for him. The amount of time and energy it takes to do
the many good things he does for us is huge. I know I could not do it, but
that does not mean I always agree. Drew is a grown up and I like to think I
am a grown up so we can disagree and not have any animosity towards each
other.
AO-51 is a zoo at times, so is 20 meters during contests. It is the nature
of the beast. As time goes on people will figure out how to make contacts,
whether it is change birds, change times, or change tactics. I believe
limiting access is a bad idea.
I'm not wanting to start a flame war, just wanting to state there is another
side to the argument, and there are a few of us on that side.
73,
Joe kk0sd
-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of P.H.
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:30 AM
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Several others have written in support, and
I only wish more would have done so publicly.
I wasn't going to reply to this thread when it started because I feel
quite strongly about the subject and didn't want to say something I
would later regret. However as I feel I need to show my support for
Drew's decision, here goes.
First of all I think Drew was right to do what he did, over here in
Europe things are pretty much the same, in fact I have heard worse
than the recording posted here earlier in the week. I have experienced
the same frustration that I imagine Drew did when he had others
deliberately stomp all over him, it's not nice, especially when it's
the same stations day in and day out.
While I dont always agree with Drew's attitude to people here on -bb,
on this occasion I do support him in what he did - and appreciate both
his efforts in looking after the sat and those of the other command
stations (and of course others behind the scenes who dont always get a
mention)
There has been a lot of talk about what can't be done to rectify the
situation.. we need to have a more positive approach to this and look
at what can be done.
Our license states that it is an offence to cause interference - If it
is intentional or not, it is interference - some people have compared
it to a HF pileup, yes there is that side to it, but that doesn't mean
we cant do something about those regular users who continually make a
nuisance of themselves by stomping all over other stations, be it
deliberate or not - it is interference. If you cant make a contact on
the sat without regularly causing interference, then it's either time
to look at asking for help with your station setup and operating
practices or consider another aspect of the hobby.
The ham radio governing bodies (ARRL, RSGB etc) are perhaps in a
better position to offer assistance to contact those who don't hang
out on here or have contact details on QRZ.com etc.
For those people who choose to ignore the advise and continue to cause
interference by stomping all over users then perhaps if a few
complaints were lodged with the licensing authority it may help.
I know it won't cure the problem totally but wouldn't it help? - those
who are that way inclined will think twice before making a total
nuisance of themselves on the air, and those that choose to ignore the
thought of having their license revoked may well just get a letter
forwarded to them by their national Amsat organisation via the ARRL or
RSGB etc, or repeat offenders from the licensing authority.
To reiterate, i'm not talking about the new operators, we were all new
once. I'm talking about the regular offenders who are just plain rude
and cant wait their turn, or greedy and think it is their right to
have X amount of contacts per pass no matter how much interference
they cause.
Just some suggestions, it may take a little time and effort but also
it may well pay off in the long run.
Here in Europe there are several stations who pass after pass just
stomp all over other users and make AO-51 in particular not a nice
place to be.
I would certainly never consider using AO-51 as a satellite to do a
demo on to beginners when these guys are around.
However, the last few days on AO-51 have been a pleasure to work since
the switch and if it continues like this (doubtful) then a demo on
AO-51 would most definitley be a possibility.
Remember, the use of AO-51 is a privilege, not a right. Treat it, and
it's users with the respect it/they deserve.
Ok, rant over.
Keep up the good work Drew, Mark, Gould and all the team at Amsat-NA
73
Pete
2i0VAX
___
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[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
That's fine Joe. I don't expect everyone to walk in lockstep. What I do expect
is to not be accused, as others have, of impropriety within what I do for
AMSAT. That type of accusation will elicit an aggressive, overwhelming defense
every time.
73, Drew KO4MA
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 31, 2011, at 7:01 AM, Gary \Joe\ Mayfield
gary_mayfi...@hotmail.com wrote:
Okay, I'll go public as well. I sent Clint a private email. I disagree
with what Drew did. I appreciate he has a truly thankless job. I have
nothing but respect for him. The amount of time and energy it takes to do
the many good things he does for us is huge. I know I could not do it, but
that does not mean I always agree. Drew is a grown up and I like to think I
am a grown up so we can disagree and not have any animosity towards each
other.
AO-51 is a zoo at times, so is 20 meters during contests. It is the nature
of the beast. As time goes on people will figure out how to make contacts,
whether it is change birds, change times, or change tactics. I believe
limiting access is a bad idea.
I'm not wanting to start a flame war, just wanting to state there is another
side to the argument, and there are a few of us on that side.
73,
Joe kk0sd
-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of P.H.
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:30 AM
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Several others have written in support, and
I only wish more would have done so publicly.
I wasn't going to reply to this thread when it started because I feel
quite strongly about the subject and didn't want to say something I
would later regret. However as I feel I need to show my support for
Drew's decision, here goes.
First of all I think Drew was right to do what he did, over here in
Europe things are pretty much the same, in fact I have heard worse
than the recording posted here earlier in the week. I have experienced
the same frustration that I imagine Drew did when he had others
deliberately stomp all over him, it's not nice, especially when it's
the same stations day in and day out.
While I dont always agree with Drew's attitude to people here on -bb,
on this occasion I do support him in what he did - and appreciate both
his efforts in looking after the sat and those of the other command
stations (and of course others behind the scenes who dont always get a
mention)
There has been a lot of talk about what can't be done to rectify the
situation.. we need to have a more positive approach to this and look
at what can be done.
Our license states that it is an offence to cause interference - If it
is intentional or not, it is interference - some people have compared
it to a HF pileup, yes there is that side to it, but that doesn't mean
we cant do something about those regular users who continually make a
nuisance of themselves by stomping all over other stations, be it
deliberate or not - it is interference. If you cant make a contact on
the sat without regularly causing interference, then it's either time
to look at asking for help with your station setup and operating
practices or consider another aspect of the hobby.
The ham radio governing bodies (ARRL, RSGB etc) are perhaps in a
better position to offer assistance to contact those who don't hang
out on here or have contact details on QRZ.com etc.
For those people who choose to ignore the advise and continue to cause
interference by stomping all over users then perhaps if a few
complaints were lodged with the licensing authority it may help.
I know it won't cure the problem totally but wouldn't it help? - those
who are that way inclined will think twice before making a total
nuisance of themselves on the air, and those that choose to ignore the
thought of having their license revoked may well just get a letter
forwarded to them by their national Amsat organisation via the ARRL or
RSGB etc, or repeat offenders from the licensing authority.
To reiterate, i'm not talking about the new operators, we were all new
once. I'm talking about the regular offenders who are just plain rude
and cant wait their turn, or greedy and think it is their right to
have X amount of contacts per pass no matter how much interference
they cause.
Just some suggestions, it may take a little time and effort but also
it may well pay off in the long run.
Here in Europe there are several stations who pass after pass just
stomp all over other users and make AO-51 in particular not a nice
place to be.
I would certainly never consider using AO-51 as a satellite to do a
demo on to beginners when these guys are around.
However, the last few days on AO-51 have been a pleasure to work since
the switch and if it continues like this (doubtful) then a demo on
AO-51 would most definitley be a possibility.
Remember, the use of AO-51 is a privilege
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Hi Pete and the -bb,
I can recognize your description about some of the passes - not all - here
over Europe.
K5OE also tells the story about his operating here some years ago :-)
I also support Drews action - but some may say that I am biased since I
am a member of the Operating Committee for AO-51.
However the only/best way to improve things is to make direct contact with
the offenders of good operating practice.
Most often we can find their e-mail addresses on qrz.com.
I have done that many times - most often with a good result.
I have a text Considerate Operating Practice.. in several languages which
I can send to those of you who want to try yourself.
73 OZ1MY/Ib
-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] På vegne
af P.H.
Sendt: 31. marts 2011 11:30
Til: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Emne: [amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Several others have written in support, and
I only wish more would have done so publicly.
I wasn't going to reply to this thread when it started because I feel
quite strongly about the subject and didn't want to say something I
would later regret. However as I feel I need to show my support for
Drew's decision, here goes.
First of all I think Drew was right to do what he did, over here in
Europe things are pretty much the same, in fact I have heard worse
than the recording posted here earlier in the week. I have experienced
the same frustration that I imagine Drew did when he had others
deliberately stomp all over him, it's not nice, especially when it's
the same stations day in and day out.
While I dont always agree with Drew's attitude to people here on -bb,
on this occasion I do support him in what he did - and appreciate both
his efforts in looking after the sat and those of the other command
stations (and of course others behind the scenes who dont always get a
mention)
There has been a lot of talk about what can't be done to rectify the
situation.. we need to have a more positive approach to this and look
at what can be done.
Our license states that it is an offence to cause interference - If it
is intentional or not, it is interference - some people have compared
it to a HF pileup, yes there is that side to it, but that doesn't mean
we cant do something about those regular users who continually make a
nuisance of themselves by stomping all over other stations, be it
deliberate or not - it is interference. If you cant make a contact on
the sat without regularly causing interference, then it's either time
to look at asking for help with your station setup and operating
practices or consider another aspect of the hobby.
The ham radio governing bodies (ARRL, RSGB etc) are perhaps in a
better position to offer assistance to contact those who don't hang
out on here or have contact details on QRZ.com etc.
For those people who choose to ignore the advise and continue to cause
interference by stomping all over users then perhaps if a few
complaints were lodged with the licensing authority it may help.
I know it won't cure the problem totally but wouldn't it help? - those
who are that way inclined will think twice before making a total
nuisance of themselves on the air, and those that choose to ignore the
thought of having their license revoked may well just get a letter
forwarded to them by their national Amsat organisation via the ARRL or
RSGB etc, or repeat offenders from the licensing authority.
To reiterate, i'm not talking about the new operators, we were all new
once. I'm talking about the regular offenders who are just plain rude
and cant wait their turn, or greedy and think it is their right to
have X amount of contacts per pass no matter how much interference
they cause.
Just some suggestions, it may take a little time and effort but also
it may well pay off in the long run.
Here in Europe there are several stations who pass after pass just
stomp all over other users and make AO-51 in particular not a nice
place to be.
I would certainly never consider using AO-51 as a satellite to do a
demo on to beginners when these guys are around.
However, the last few days on AO-51 have been a pleasure to work since
the switch and if it continues like this (doubtful) then a demo on
AO-51 would most definitley be a possibility.
Remember, the use of AO-51 is a privilege, not a right. Treat it, and
it's users with the respect it/they deserve.
Ok, rant over.
Keep up the good work Drew, Mark, Gould and all the team at Amsat-NA
73
Pete
2i0VAX
___
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Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
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Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
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Subscription settings
[amsat-bb] Re: Echo Madness
Drew, Isn't it wonderful that the AO-51 committee responds as well as it does and STILL gets it's lumps? I read some of the threads and all I can say is HUH? 73, Dee, NB2F Keep up the good work while fighting those sharks off with the other hand Subject: [amsat-bb] Echo Madness Having been on the bird on the night the recording was made (yes you can hear my feeble call sign in there a couple of times) I have to say, it was no worse than 40 meters earlier in the day with the WPX SSB contest going on. The whistles were a bit over the top. I am new to the satellites ( 3 successful passes ) so I am just learning the etiquette and procedures. It has been interesting over the past few weeks putting the station together to be able to get into the satellite. I have learned quite a bit already. The first thing I learned was that I didn't know anything about how to communicate on the satellites!!! ;-) I have enjoyed the few contacts I have made and look forward to more. I appreciate any and all assistance in the endeavor!! Thanks Ron KK7Z ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
At 12:22 AM 3/30/2011 +, you wrote: There is only ONE WAY to stop the mess on AO51. Turn it off and let Drew turn it on when he wants to make a sked with someone . LOL, Now that was funny. Made my morning. :-) Sorry you missed getting the contact though. 73 KB7ADL ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Hi Bruce! There really is no solution to a satellite that uses a particular uplink frequency to keep those that use the simplex frequency or are actually trying to make a satellite contact and use poor operating practices. snip Satellites are no different from rare DX, everyone wants a piece of it and they want it now. As we are trying to get more and more hams interested in the satellites, we are going to simply have more trying to use the same space. One solution is for the experienced satellite operators to move from the single channel FM satellites over to the SSB birds. I generally agree with you on these points, but not completely on the point that experienced operators should move off the FM birds to the SSB birds. If all the experienced operators move off the FM birds, who would be left to help the inexperienced operators? I've heard more activity on the SSB birds lately, probably due to ND9M/MM sailing around and working those passes along with the FM passes. The increased SSB activity helped me on Saturday at the hamfest in Tucson AZ followed by my post-hamfest drive through DM52/DM53 on my way home. Three of the 4 demonstration passes at the hamfest were in SSB (2 on AO-7, one on VO-52). Later in the day, there were active FO-29 passes where I was able to make 9 QSOs on the first pass (including ND9M/MM), and 5 more on the later pass to the west. Going to a comment by WA4HFN yesterday... If there was a problem on AO-51 that required the immediate attention from a command station, by all means do what is necessary to keep the satellite in good condition. Nobody should find fault with that. From the recording posted on K8YSE's web site of the Sunday afternoon AO-51 pass in question: http://www.papays.com/sat/AO-51_27Mar2011_221636z.mp3 along with posts on here since then, it is clear that was not the case. This is exactly like the situation when K5D was on the satellites from Desecheo a couple of years ago, and the posted threat by KO4MA to shut down one of the AO-51 repeaters due to what Drew called at the time extreme poor operating: http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2009-February/017442.html Since AO-51 operates on a schedule, AMSAT should keep to the schedule. It may not be pleasant to hear at times, but we are dealing with a single-channel satellite (or, at times, a two-channel satellite). There are problems from time to time, whether it is an inexperienced operator, someone using an uplink as a private simplex channel or frequency for an EchoLink/IRLP node, or whatever. We deal with this on HF, we can deal with it on the satellites. If there is a last-minute change needed in order to protect the satellite, we will understand. If a change in the schedule is needed for some reason, do what's been done in the past - publish notice of the upcoming change as is normally done and go from there. If the last-minute change is done because someone is frustrated with what is being heard, or so someone can try to work a rare station or a rare grid, that is wrong. By the way, the pass after the uplink change didn't sound very different than before the change, except for a few seconds when Drew announced the change and everyone had to change their uplink frequency. 73. Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
On 3/30/2011 2:12 PM, Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) wrote: If the last-minute change is done because someone is frustrated with what is being heard, or so someone can try to work a rare station or a rare grid, that is wrong. Let me clear something up here. I didn't change the frequency so I could work Jim or anyone else, otherwise I'd have called him after the frequency change. I worked Jim on the next FO-29 pass. I seriously resent the implication that I intervened out of personal greed, especially from you Patrick. I changed the frequency for a number of reasons. There were multiple stations QRMing the uplink with whistles, blowing in the mike, and CQs. A lot of this was before John's recording started. If you listen to the recording, no QSOs were being made, no calls getting through, NOTHING was working. Changing the frequency and asking for a little courtesy was an attempt to make things at least somewhat useful for the remainder of that pass. Considering a few QSOs were made afterwards, I consider it at least a partial success. Again, you'll notice I wasn't among them. I'm sorry a few of you missed Jim, but you likely would have anyways, as he had already decided to QRT because of the bedlam, until I changed the uplink. For what it's worth, you and Damon are the only two who've objected. At least you were moderately polite about it. Both of the DX stations on that pass were understanding and did not object to my action in the emails exchanged afterwards. Several others have written in support, and I only wish more would have done so publicly. I take input from everyone, and try to be out in the public as much as possible. Take a look back at the level of interaction from the previous few VP Ops and ask if yourself why they stayed the hell away from the users. So your objection is noted, but in the end, I alone am responsible for the operation of AO-51 and our other satellites. I will continue to act in the satellite and AMSAT's best interest, as charged by the President and Board of Directors of AMSAT, in the manner I best see fit, until removed or replaced. Consider we already have two open VP positions, an open BOD alternate, and a highly complex and finicky, aging satellite, before you decide to run me out of town on a rail. A lot of the users of this satellite have NO idea the hard work it takes to keep AO-51 running. I have volunteered hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours over the past several years, in order to make AO-51 available as often, and in as many modes as possible. I've left work early, went in late, postponed personal vacations, missed family events, and spent thousands of dollars to upgrade my station, in order to be able to keep it in service so we can download and process telemetry, reload code, keep the repeater running, and promote AMSAT. Mark, Kevin, and Gould have done the same. While you guys bust tail to get on the air to work a new grid, we are there on the digital downlink trying to keep AO-51 alive, hopefully long enough to see it's replacement on orbit. I'm writing schedules for SO-67 and AO-51, emailing answers to users who've asked questions, and trying to find time to spend with my family. So before you get on the -bb and take potshots at us, whine, piss and moan, you better think of the alternative scenario without a few command stations who give a damn, or without a VP Ops. It isn't all fun and games and chasing grids for us. Disgusted, Drew Glasbrenner, KO4MA AMSAT-NA VP Operations ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Drew, Let me clear something up here. I didn't change the frequency so I could work Jim or anyone else, otherwise I'd have called him after the frequency change. I worked Jim on the next FO-29 pass. I seriously resent the implication that I intervened out of personal greed, especially from you Patrick. You didn't call him right after making the frequency change, but you did call him at least once after the change ( I heard you around 8:18 in K8YSE's recording). Had you not made even that call for Jim, and waited for that FO-29 pass or some other later pass, then I probably wouldn't have posted anything on this topic. For what it's worth, you and Damon are the only two who've objected. At least you were moderately polite about it. Both of the DX stations on that pass were understanding and did not object to my action in the emails exchanged afterwards. Several others have written in support, and I only wish more would have done so publicly. Moderately polite? How about just saying polite? You should know me by now. We have had differences of opinions on other topics in the past, even here on the -BB. That happens. We have exchanged our opinions, and it has been done in a calm and respectful manner. I did not call you any names, I took issue with a decision you made during that pass, in at least one of your AMSAT positions. If what you did on Sunday was something you've done in the past, and not the first time you did that, maybe that would have been something we could expect in those situations. If my opinion is in the minority, so be it. More often than not, I am in agreement with you and whatever actions you take related to AO-51, or AMSAT in general. This time, I disagreed with your decision, and was willing to put my name to my opinion publicly. I take input from everyone, and try to be out in the public as much as possible. Take a look back at the level of interaction from the previous few VP Ops and ask if yourself why they stayed the hell away from the users. So your objection is noted, but in the end, I alone am responsible for the operation of AO-51 and our other satellites. I will continue to act in the satellite and AMSAT's best interest, as charged by the President and Board of Directors of AMSAT, in the manner I best see fit, until removed or replaced. Consider we already have two open VP positions, an open BOD alternate, and a highly complex and finicky, aging satellite, before you decide to run me out of town on a rail. Here you go again. When did I say or imply I wanted to run you out of town on a rail? We have had our differences, but I've never said that you should not be in the many AMSAT positions you currently hold. Once again, we don't have to share the same opinion on everything. A lot of the users of this satellite have NO idea the hard work it takes to keep AO-51 running. I have volunteered hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours over the past several years, in order to make AO-51 available as often, and in as many modes as possible. I've left work early, went in late, postponed personal vacations, missed family events, and spent thousands of dollars to upgrade my station, in order to be able to keep it in service so we can download and process telemetry, reload code, keep the repeater running, and promote AMSAT. Mark, Kevin, and Gould have done the same. While you guys bust tail to get on the air to work a new grid, we are there on the digital downlink trying to keep AO-51 alive, hopefully long enough to see it's replacement on orbit. I'm writing schedules for SO-67 and AO-51, emailing answers to users who've asked questions, and trying to find time to spend with my family. So before you get on the -bb and take potshots at us, whine, piss and moan, you better think of the alternative scenario without a few command stations who give a damn, or without a VP Ops. It isn't all fun and games and chasing grids for us. You are correct, in that many of the users don't know what is involved with keeping AO-51 on the air. I am not in that group. I know very well that it takes a lot of time and effort. I had been in the Operations Group previously, helping to answer questions that came in from users and help with preparing the AO-51 schedules. When I left that group a couple of years ago, that was when I started going out to more hamfests and other events on behalf of AMSAT. I continue to do that, and also try to do my part to support the organization financially (hoping to hear the successor to AO-51 on the air, and other satellites, in the future). I appreciate the hard work you do, and for putting yourself out here on the -BB. I disagree with what you did on Sunday, but that doesn't change my appreciation for what you do on behalf of AMSAT. Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Several others have written in support, and I only wish more would have done so publicly. I'll just say that I was one of the several others that wrote Drew in support. I think there's sometimes a fine balance between satellite ease-of-use and avoiding congestion. Drew took action to shift the balance away from congestion, and I appreciate his efforts in this regard. 73 de Dave KB5WIA / CM88 ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Hello Kevin and group,
Back to the point, please let me know if you think I
need any correcting, I would rather help not hinder.
I really enjoy this HOBBY, but I dont know if there is
a solution...
At this stage in the game, there really is no solution per say. When there
is 30-40
guys on ONE frequency trying to make QSOs, what else can we expect? Yes,
there are some rude practices going on, but is that any different than what
happens when we get in our car and jump on the freeway
at rush hour? Or how about the grocery store? All you can do is to 1) make
sure you are not part of the issue, 2) adapt to the situation, even if it
means not making any QSOs and just listening, and 3) run full duplex if
you can. I understand that there are some that might not be able to afford
a second
radio, and I am by no means slamming you for that. I would, however, put a
second HT/full duplex rig on your list for future purchases. You will be
amazed at the difference it makes - trust me! I thought full duplex sounded
dumb until I tried it, now I don't know if I could do a pass without it.
Most of all, don't complain about that situation (not that you were, Kevin).
What happens on the road when you complain to the other driver about
cutting you off? It usually ends up in something pretty ugly. No different
here - it just fuels the fire. If you don't like it, do what you can to
work around the situation and keep your expectations low, and if you really
hate it, don't get on. Not all passes are bad - I was on a great afternoon
pass of AO27 yesterday that covered all of the US, and it was great! We are
talking of 1-2 crazy passes in the evening, and then the weekends
obviously - not all passes. And I am referring to the FM sats - the SSB/CW
birds are wide open.
Regarding discussion of switching the uplinks randomly, and
only notifying a select group... While this may be the easy way out of the
issue (until everyone catches on), it definitely does not correspond with
what Ham radio has at its roots - hams helping and mentoring other hams. I
can only imagine how I would feel if I found out that us new hams were being
shut out so the regulars could carry on a QSO without interference. The new
guys and new guys to come have as much right to transmit as anyone else that
uses them. Just keep in mind that pretty much everyone here that reads this
was a newbie at one time, made their first QSO, stepped on someone for the
first time and probably frustrated someone for the first time.
There has been much discussion about the issue of operator rudeness/busy
passes on the QRZ forums, here at the BB, and even during busy satellite
passes comments have been made, but I am not seeing a big difference in
operating practices - things are still crazy at certain times. As Clint
stated, this does seem to be blown out of proportion a bit. Look at it
mathematically: On a typical weekend AO51 pass there can be as many as 30
stations x 2 QSOs each (not many) = 60 QSOs during a 12 minute pass. That is
5 QSOs/minute - 1 QSO every *12* seconds. These are rough estimates, but
when you think about all these stations on ONE frequency, it should not
surprise anyone that is gets crazy.
Just try to enjoy it for what it is - it is a really neat and challenging
aspect of the hobby. If we have to put up with a bit of craziness on
certain passes, I hate to say it, but that is just part of this aspect of
the hobby. Again, we are talking about one satellite (mainly AO51) on a
select few passes. This is not an issue spread across the board. There are
still many quiet birds and passes, just take the time to find which ones
work best for you.
73,
Zack
KD8KSN
-Original Message-
From: Kevin Deane
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:26 AM
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] -={Echo Madness}=-
I was hoping to get some feedback from you guys. I have only been operating
for a short time and had some hicup's along the way. I found some recordings
of when I first started...There were some I could not hear the bird, and the
very first ones were pretty funny. I got some schooling on my form pretty
quick from you guy's. I wish I would have listened to passes before I
started, at the time I did not know they existed...
I saw a post about making one contact per pass, well I am guilty. However, I
have been listening to my passes and I dont think I am too intrusive, and I
get stepped on all the time. My brother say's that I am terribly addicted
when I was upset when I could not get in on the maddness when they changed
the uplink, pretty funny really. I was all checkin the equipment from top to
bottom.
Anyway, I try to call the new guys, because I remember how excited I was,
hearing someone calling me. I still enjoy it, wether it be on VHF/UHF or HF.
Is not that the reason we do this is to have fun? Sure there are times I get
frustrated, cant get in or what not. Maybe that is what this is all about.
Should I just not jump
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
I think part of the problem is that we are victims of our own success. There have been numerous articles and presentations about how easy it is to get on the FM satellites with just an HT or dualband FM rig (and mine isn't even a true dualband, it just receives on UHF), and this has been so persuasive, that everyone is now trying it. That is good, it gives us more activity, more new grid squares to work, etc. If the regulars want to get on and ragchew with each other you need to do that on the SSB satellites, as the FM satellites don't really support that activity. Anyways, as most of us who are using less than optimized circularly polarized beams with elevation and preamps can attest to, you get some decent fading from time to time on the received signal. I think this is what leads to much of the QRM. The satellite briefly fades out so some of the stations don't know that someone is already talking so they start making calls. I have heard quite a few stations more or less call CQ on the satellite and they must not hear it very well because I can hear several stations come back to them and they just keep CQing instead. 73s John AA5JG On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Zachary Beougher zack.kd8...@hotmail.comwrote: Hello Kevin and group, Back to the point, please let me know if you think I need any correcting, I would rather help not hinder. I really enjoy this HOBBY, but I dont know if there is a solution... At this stage in the game, there really is no solution per say. When there is 30-40 guys on ONE frequency trying to make QSOs, what else can we expect? Yes, there are some rude practices going on, but is that any different than what happens when we get in our car and jump on the freeway at rush hour? Or how about the grocery store? All you can do is to 1) make sure you are not part of the issue, 2) adapt to the situation, even if it means not making any QSOs and just listening, and 3) run full duplex if you can. I understand that there are some that might not be able to afford a second radio, and I am by no means slamming you for that. I would, however, put a second HT/full duplex rig on your list for future purchases. You will be amazed at the difference it makes - trust me! I thought full duplex sounded dumb until I tried it, now I don't know if I could do a pass without it. Most of all, don't complain about that situation (not that you were, Kevin). What happens on the road when you complain to the other driver about cutting you off? It usually ends up in something pretty ugly. No different here - it just fuels the fire. If you don't like it, do what you can to work around the situation and keep your expectations low, and if you really hate it, don't get on. Not all passes are bad - I was on a great afternoon pass of AO27 yesterday that covered all of the US, and it was great! We are talking of 1-2 crazy passes in the evening, and then the weekends obviously - not all passes. And I am referring to the FM sats - the SSB/CW birds are wide open. Regarding discussion of switching the uplinks randomly, and only notifying a select group... While this may be the easy way out of the issue (until everyone catches on), it definitely does not correspond with what Ham radio has at its roots - hams helping and mentoring other hams. I can only imagine how I would feel if I found out that us new hams were being shut out so the regulars could carry on a QSO without interference. The new guys and new guys to come have as much right to transmit as anyone else that uses them. Just keep in mind that pretty much everyone here that reads this was a newbie at one time, made their first QSO, stepped on someone for the first time and probably frustrated someone for the first time. There has been much discussion about the issue of operator rudeness/busy passes on the QRZ forums, here at the BB, and even during busy satellite passes comments have been made, but I am not seeing a big difference in operating practices - things are still crazy at certain times. As Clint stated, this does seem to be blown out of proportion a bit. Look at it mathematically: On a typical weekend AO51 pass there can be as many as 30 stations x 2 QSOs each (not many) = 60 QSOs during a 12 minute pass. That is 5 QSOs/minute - 1 QSO every *12* seconds. These are rough estimates, but when you think about all these stations on ONE frequency, it should not surprise anyone that is gets crazy. Just try to enjoy it for what it is - it is a really neat and challenging aspect of the hobby. If we have to put up with a bit of craziness on certain passes, I hate to say it, but that is just part of this aspect of the hobby. Again, we are talking about one satellite (mainly AO51) on a select few passes. This is not an issue spread across the board. There are still many quiet birds and passes, just take the time to find which ones work best for you. 73,
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Not directed at the authors, but in listening to the recording of that pass, I think it could have easily done without the multiple CQ's along with the whistling and blowing into the mike...eliminate those bad habits first and then working on not interrupting quick, 4 transmission exchanges and trying to keep transmissions short would result in a much less chaotic atmosphere, even without running full duplex. Roger WA1KAT Zachary Beougher wrote: Hello Kevin and group, Back to the point, please let me know if you think I need any correcting, I would rather help not hinder. I really enjoy this HOBBY, but I dont know if there is a solution... At this stage in the game, there really is no solution per say. When there is 30-40 guys on ONE frequency trying to make QSOs, what else can we expect? ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
There is only ONE WAY to stop the mess on AO51. Turn it off and let Drew
turn it on when he wants to make a sked with someone . He caused me to miss a
grid contact Sunday when he changed the TX freq in the middle of a pass . He
was wrong in doing that. AO51 is out of control. If an operator needs to be
contacted by email and have proper operation explaned to them ,let KO4MA do it.
We can type these usless messages here till we all get blisters on our fingers
and it will not make any difference. Alot of the people who are causing the
mess dont even use the Amsat BB .
WA4HFN Damon
- Original Message -
From: Roger Kolakowski rogerk...@aol.com
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:03:02 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Not directed at the authors, but in listening to the recording of that
pass, I think it could have easily done without the multiple CQ's along
with the whistling and blowing into the mike...eliminate those bad
habits first and then working on not interrupting quick, 4 transmission
exchanges and trying to keep transmissions short would result in a much
less chaotic atmosphere, even without running full duplex.
Roger
WA1KAT
Zachary Beougher wrote:
Hello Kevin and group,
Back to the point, please let me know if you think I
need any correcting, I would rather help not hinder.
I really enjoy this HOBBY, but I dont know if there is
a solution...
At this stage in the game, there really is no solution per say. When there
is 30-40
guys on ONE frequency trying to make QSOs, what else can we expect?
___
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
___
Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author.
Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: -={Echo Madness}=-
Personally, if anyone wants to control who uses a satellite, then make the satellite digital and give each participant a digital code (which can be filtered later). Include a list of acceptable usage with it. If that person violates the acceptable usage then revoke his digital code and he is gone forever. Hm satellite moderation, just like what was tried here on the -bb a few years back when flames and flame throwers got a little out of hand. We received rules of use and if you violate them, you were banned from the -bb. I can also remember many years ago in so-35, uo-14 days, there was a ham that used to have conversations with his xyl on many of the passes. Turned out he was in South America working as a missionary and he thought he was talking on a really quiet simplex frequency (the satellite uplink). After days and days of listening, we finally caught a call sign. I wrote him a letter and explained that we were all listening to the two of them and if he could QSY. Not a problem, within a week he was gone and in about another week, he had written me saying he did not know he was interfering with the satellite. There really is no solution to a satellite that uses a particular uplink frequency to keep those that use the simplex frequency or are actually trying to make a satellite contact and use poor operating practices. After all, when P5/4L4FN was operating from North Korea, there were many that made dozens of HF SSB contacts with him when one was enough to give them the rarest of all DX. There were also many pirates jamming the frequencies and a real mess. I know this first hand as I am the QSL manager. Satellites are no different from rare DX, everyone wants a piece of it and they want it now. As we are trying to get more and more hams interested in the satellites, we are going to simply have more trying to use the same space. One solution is for the experienced satellite operators to move from the single channel FM satellites over to the SSB birds. 73...bruce -- Bruce Paige, KK5DO AMSAT Director Contests and Awards ARRL Awards Manager (WAS, 5BWAS, VUCC), VE Houston AMSAT Net - Wed 0100z on Echolink - Conference *AMSAT* Also live streaming MP3 at http://www.amsatnet.com Podcast at http://www.amsatnet.com/podcast.xml or iTunes Latest satellite news on the ARRL Audio News http://www.arrl.org AMSAT on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/amsat ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
