[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Kevin: I don't think that the OP was trying to complain about SSB operators being less capable or less polite or less facile in their Doppler tuning correction or whatever in comparison to CW operators. He was just making an observation that sometimes two pairs of communicating operators have their frequencies collide due to shifting Doppler and different ways of tracking the tuning to compensate. The issue is that (at least on all of my radios), when you are set to receive in CW mode the radio does narrow its bandwidth considerably to get the maximum benefit of CW's narrower frequency bandwidth requirement, which is part of what makes it able to dig deeper into the noise level and pull out an intelligible signal. When I am set to receive in CW and tune in an SSB station (for example, during a terrestrial contest when there are lots of signals of both types present), I can't understand the SSB conversation, but if I am set to receive in SSB, the radio sets a wider bandwidth and I can hear a CW signal quite well, and understanding it is mainly dependent on how well or poorly I can copy CW at all. So the OP was pointing out that if the CW operator was set to receive in SSB instead of CW, he would lose the selectivity of the narrower bandwidth but probably would still be able to copy the CW signal, with the added benefit of being able to hear and understand a SSB QSO whose frequency happened to collide with his CW operating frequency. No judgment was meant to be implied on who intruded on whom, or why (strictly because of shifting Doppler vs. different techniques of Doppler tuning correction). Just that for whatever combination of reasons, the two QSO's happened to cross frequencies and intrude on one another. By listening in SSB mode the CW operator would become more aware of the intrusion and could better adjust his tuning to avoid it or move away from the colliding signal. When I am operating in a terrestrial VHF/UHF/microwave contest, there are times when I can hear an operator well enough to copy him on SSB, but he is unable to hear me well enough to copy me on SSB. I will then switch to CW mode and send my information that way, counting on the superior legibility of CW (to an operator who understands CW) to get my information across. The problem that arises is that if the other operator copies my CW and realizes that I copied his SSB just fine, he may reply in SSB (because he doesn't have to change any settings on his radio, he just hits the transmit button and talks), and with my radio set to CW mode, I can no longer copy him legibly. So I have to quickly switch back to SSB mode as soon as I finish sending my CW to hear his SSB reply. I guess my point is simply that while I have not experienced the exact problem that the OP was talking about, since I don't normally operate CW on the satellites, I understand what he is talking about regarding the legibility of a CW signal in SSB receive mode vs. the illegibility of an SSB signal in CW receive mode. Bottom line: if you can hear the CW coming down from the satellite well enough in SSB mode, it might very well be a good idea to listen in that fashion. It may or may not be easy to configure your radio(s) to transmit CW and listen to SSB, but if you can do it, and not lose the CW signal in the noise, it may be a good way to go. 73 de John Toscano, W0JT/5, AMSAT-NA LM#2292 On Feb 7 2014, Kevin M wrote: Computer-control stations and manual-control stations are adjusting for Doppler differently. I have done - and will continue to do - both. In my opinion, neither is incorrect; they simply differ from each other. This was posted during the assemblage of my long winded reply. I think it gets at the same thing I was beating around the bush at. I'm glad to know when I am eventually able to get back on the linear birds (yagis, preamps, cables and rotor in the closet... conduit for burying piled up outside) I will be able to find someone to work without getting my rig hooked up to a PC. (It will be enough to get the rotor hooked up to one!) I just hope I can remember which dial to turn when... anyone hearing me screw the pooch, please send instructions promptly! X^D 73 all, Kevin, N4UFO proud to be a full fledged Gridiot! ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
1/2 the time I do not have a key plugged into the rig. I do call a CW op on SSB but have not had a reply. Back in the 80s there were a lot more CW ops. Anyway I have no complaint any OSCAR contact is a good one. Wish I could have worked the Alaska station today, awesome signal. Hope he made a lot of Qs. God Bless R W4BUE K4AMG.org club - Original Message - From: tosca...@umn.edu To: Kevin M n4...@yahoo.com Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2014 12:33 PM Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW Kevin: I don't think that the OP was trying to complain about SSB operators being less capable or less polite or less facile in their Doppler tuning correction or whatever in comparison to CW operators. He was just making an observation that sometimes two pairs of communicating operators have their frequencies collide due to shifting Doppler and different ways of tracking the tuning to compensate. The issue is that (at least on all of my radios), when you are set to receive in CW mode the radio does narrow its bandwidth considerably to get the maximum benefit of CW's narrower frequency bandwidth requirement, which is part of what makes it able to dig deeper into the noise level and pull out an intelligible signal. When I am set to receive in CW and tune in an SSB station (for example, during a terrestrial contest when there are lots of signals of both types present), I can't understand the SSB conversation, but if I am set to receive in SSB, the radio sets a wider bandwidth and I can hear a CW signal quite well, and understanding it is mainly dependent on how well or poorly I can copy CW at all. So the OP was pointing out that if the CW operator was set to receive in SSB instead of CW, he would lose the selectivity of the narrower bandwidth but probably would still be able to copy the CW signal, with the added benefit of being able to hear and understand a SSB QSO whose frequency happened to collide with his CW operating frequency. No judgment was meant to be implied on who intruded on whom, or why (strictly because of shifting Doppler vs. different techniques of Doppler tuning correction). Just that for whatever combination of reasons, the two QSO's happened to cross frequencies and intrude on one another. By listening in SSB mode the CW operator would become more aware of the intrusion and could better adjust his tuning to avoid it or move away from the colliding signal. When I am operating in a terrestrial VHF/UHF/microwave contest, there are times when I can hear an operator well enough to copy him on SSB, but he is unable to hear me well enough to copy me on SSB. I will then switch to CW mode and send my information that way, counting on the superior legibility of CW (to an operator who understands CW) to get my information across. The problem that arises is that if the other operator copies my CW and realizes that I copied his SSB just fine, he may reply in SSB (because he doesn't have to change any settings on his radio, he just hits the transmit button and talks), and with my radio set to CW mode, I can no longer copy him legibly. So I have to quickly switch back to SSB mode as soon as I finish sending my CW to hear his SSB reply. I guess my point is simply that while I have not experienced the exact problem that the OP was talking about, since I don't normally operate CW on the satellites, I understand what he is talking about regarding the legibility of a CW signal in SSB receive mode vs. the illegibility of an SSB signal in CW receive mode. Bottom line: if you can hear the CW coming down from the satellite well enough in SSB mode, it might very well be a good idea to listen in that fashion. It may or may not be easy to configure your radio(s) to transmit CW and listen to SSB, but if you can do it, and not lose the CW signal in the noise, it may be a good way to go. 73 de John Toscano, W0JT/5, AMSAT-NA LM#2292 On Feb 7 2014, Kevin M wrote: Computer-control stations and manual-control stations are adjusting for Doppler differently. I have done - and will continue to do - both. In my opinion, neither is incorrect; they simply differ from each other. This was posted during the assemblage of my long winded reply. I think it gets at the same thing I was beating around the bush at. I'm glad to know when I am eventually able to get back on the linear birds (yagis, preamps, cables and rotor in the closet... conduit for burying piled up outside) I will be able to find someone to work without getting my rig hooked up to a PC. (It will be enough to get the rotor hooked up to one!) I just hope I can remember which dial to turn when... anyone hearing me screw the pooch, please send instructions promptly! X^D 73 all, Kevin, N4UFO proud to be a full fledged Gridiot! ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
I am not a constant user of the sats, but I notice this with both some CW and SSB transmissions. Some sats just have drift. It is still fun. God Bless R W4BUE - Original Message - From: Clayton Coleman kayakfis...@gmail.com To: AMSAT-BB amsat-bb@amsat.org Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 11:42 AM Subject: [amsat-bb] Listening on USB when operating CW I assume many home station satellite operators utilize some kind of full-duplex radio or combination of two radios for CW on the current satellites. Lately, as I have been listening a lot more with my FUNcube Dongle Pro+, I have observed many CW stations drifting across the satellites' passband. I realize this is not a new phenomenon. I would assume these drifting stations are NOT using any type of computer Doppler correction. If they were using computer control, I would assume their CW would stay on the same place in the transponder's passband. It is visually apparent when the stations manually make larger frequency movements because of the curve displayed on my SDR application's waterfall display. Many times I have been engaged in a QSO only to have someone CQ'ing on CW drift across my existing QSO. Anyone who operates satellites has probably had this happen to them many times. Sometimes myself or others in QSO may try to tell the CW operator Hello - QSO in progress but it is apparent they are not hearing us. My question is, does it make sense for people using CW on the satellites to have their receiver set to USB? Do some operators do this? If listening on a VFO with USB and had your transmit VFO set to CW, would this help make it easier for CW ops to know when they have drifted into an existing voice QSO? 73 Clayton W5PFG ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
On 2/7/2014 11:18 AM, Ng, Peter wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't automatic doppler corrections dynamically change your frequency to compensate for doppler? Would this mean anyone engaging in doppler correction are actually drifting into a stable frequency? by stable do you mean a freq already being used? John, W0JAB ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Yes, the frequency in use by the CW station that is not adjusting for doppler will appear to be moving for stations that are adjusting for dopplerright? Peter ve7ngp -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John Becker Sent: February 7, 2014 09:27 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW On 2/7/2014 11:18 AM, Ng, Peter wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't automatic doppler corrections dynamically change your frequency to compensate for doppler? Would this mean anyone engaging in doppler correction are actually drifting into a stable frequency? by stable do you mean a freq already being used? John, W0JAB ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't automatic doppler corrections dynamically change your frequency to compensate for doppler? Would this mean anyone engaging in doppler correction are actually drifting into a stable frequency? 73 Peter ve7ngp -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Clayton Coleman Sent: February 7, 2014 08:43 To: AMSAT-BB Subject: [amsat-bb] Listening on USB when operating CW I assume many home station satellite operators utilize some kind of full-duplex radio or combination of two radios for CW on the current satellites. Lately, as I have been listening a lot more with my FUNcube Dongle Pro+, I have observed many CW stations drifting across the satellites' passband. I realize this is not a new phenomenon. I would assume these drifting stations are NOT using any type of computer Doppler correction. If they were using computer control, I would assume their CW would stay on the same place in the transponder's passband. It is visually apparent when the stations manually make larger frequency movements because of the curve displayed on my SDR application's waterfall display. Many times I have been engaged in a QSO only to have someone CQ'ing on CW drift across my existing QSO. Anyone who operates satellites has probably had this happen to them many times. Sometimes myself or others in QSO may try to tell the CW operator Hello - QSO in progress but it is apparent they are not hearing us. My question is, does it make sense for people using CW on the satellites to have their receiver set to USB? Do some operators do this? If listening on a VFO with USB and had your transmit VFO set to CW, would this help make it easier for CW ops to know when they have drifted into an existing voice QSO? 73 Clayton W5PFG ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Peter, That is correct and what I have attempted to describe. A station not adjusting properly for Doppler shift will appear to move across the passband into stations who are making corrections. (voice or CW) There are several categories for correction, as I see it by order of occurrence...(and there may be more) 1 - People who use full Doppler correction via software, adjusting both TX and RX to stay on the satellite's frequency. 2 - People who use half Doppler correction by tuning the higher of two frequencies. This is common for people who are portable or want the simplest method of staying on another station. In the mode, you will move slightly. I do this often in the field. It's not perfect. 3 - People who use TX only correction. I see this often and I believe it's an incorrect practice to always tune TX because sometimes that means on mode J you'll likely move across QSO's in progress. 4 - Probably the least common I observe, people who use full Doppler correction manually. I believe it is a little more difficult to do this on fast moving LEO's, especially on CW. My original email was trying to discover whether or not listening on USB while transmitting on CW might make it easier for CW drifters to know they are part of a problem. Occasionally when this problem occurs with USB voice, the perpetrating stations are not able to hear well enough to know they are causing a problem. 73 Clayton W5PFG On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Ng, Peter peter...@bccdc.ca wrote: Yes, the frequency in use by the CW station that is not adjusting for doppler will appear to be moving for stations that are adjusting for dopplerright? Peter ve7ngp -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John Becker Sent: February 7, 2014 09:27 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW On 2/7/2014 11:18 AM, Ng, Peter wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't automatic doppler corrections dynamically change your frequency to compensate for doppler? Would this mean anyone engaging in doppler correction are actually drifting into a stable frequency? by stable do you mean a freq already being used? John, W0JAB ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Clayton, Lately, as I have been listening a lot more with my FUNcube Dongle Pro+, I have observed many CW stations drifting across the satellites' passband. I realize this is not a new phenomenon. I would assume these drifting stations are NOT using any type of computer Doppler correction. If they were using computer control, I would assume their CW would stay on the same place in the transponder's passband. It is visually apparent when the stations manually make larger frequency movements because of the curve displayed on my SDR application's waterfall display. You're basically correct. Stations using full computer control like what you get in SatPC32 will be able to keep their frequencies steady at the satellite, but there would still be some drift in what you observe on your SDR software's waterfall display. I also see this when I'm working those stations with my portable two-radio setup, where I'm having to make minor adjustments on both my uplink and downlink frequencies to keep up with the other station. For the mode B satellites where the operators are only adjusting the higher of the two frequencies (uplink), it might be easier to keep the downlink frequency at your receiver from drifting so much. There would be some drift at the satellite, but not so much on your waterfall display. My question is, does it make sense for people using CW on the satellites to have their receiver set to USB? Do some operators do this? If listening on a VFO with USB and had your transmit VFO set to CW, would this help make it easier for CW ops to know when they have drifted into an existing voice QSO? For the few times I have worked CW via satellite, I always set my receiver to USB. Without computer control, I would have to be adjusting my receive VFO all the time to keep the CW signal in my receiver's CW passband if it drifted. My ear can do an OK job of dealing with the drifting signal (changing pitch of the CW) when the receiver is in USB. When I use USB, I also avoid using any narrow receive filtering. For the FUNcube Dongle Pro+ and HDSDR, I only use USB on these satellites. I may widen the audio passband HDSDR has for USB, but I don't bother putting it into CW when copying CW signals. 73! Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK http://www.wd9ewk.net/ ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Thanks Clayton, that's good to know 73 Peter ve7ngp -Original Message- Peter, That is correct and what I have attempted to describe. A station not adjusting properly for Doppler shift will appear to move across the passband into stations who are making corrections. (voice or CW) There are several categories for correction, as I see it by order of occurrence...(and there may be more) 1 - People who use full Doppler correction via software, adjusting both TX and RX to stay on the satellite's frequency. 2 - People who use half Doppler correction by tuning the higher of two frequencies. This is common for people who are portable or want the simplest method of staying on another station. In the mode, you will move slightly. I do this often in the field. It's not perfect. 3 - People who use TX only correction. I see this often and I believe it's an incorrect practice to always tune TX because sometimes that means on mode J you'll likely move across QSO's in progress. 4 - Probably the least common I observe, people who use full Doppler correction manually. I believe it is a little more difficult to do this on fast moving LEO's, especially on CW. My original email was trying to discover whether or not listening on USB while transmitting on CW might make it easier for CW drifters to know they are part of a problem. Occasionally when this problem occurs with USB voice, the perpetrating stations are not able to hear well enough to know they are causing a problem. 73 Clayton W5PFG ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Hi Tim, I completely agree that different methods of Doppler shift correction yield slightly different results. The one true rule is a good source for guidance however some don't follow it -- even remotely. I do apologize if my generalization rubbed you the wrong way. Since your direct email indicated to me you adjust your transmit frequency on AO-7 mode B, that would indicate you are following a good practice of correction. Likely meaning you are NOT one of the stations who drift during their entire sequence of calling CQ for five minutes. Not everyone plays nice in the schoolyard. I've been known to screw up and probably am not immune from it in the future. I still wonder if the offenders listened on USB would they realize they've come onto a frequency being used by two or more stations engaged in a voice QSO? 73 Clayton W5PFG On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 3:45 PM, t...@n3tl.com wrote: I'm hoping this post makes it to the AMSAT-BB, although I have sent Mr. Coleman a longer response directly. I have to take issue with this statement, Mr. Coleman, which begins your second sentence in response to Mr. Ng: A station not adjusting properly for Doppler shift Computer-control stations and manual-control stations are adjusting for Doppler differently. I have done - and will continue to do - both. In my opinion, neither is incorrect; they simply differ from each other. 73 and God Bless, Tim - N3TL Evansville, Ind. - EM68 Original Message Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW From: Clayton Coleman kayakfis...@gmail.com Date: Fri, February 07, 2014 2:04 pm To: Ng, Peter peter...@bccdc.ca Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Peter, That is correct and what I have attempted to describe. A station not adjusting properly for Doppler shift will appear to move across the passband into stations who are making corrections. (voice or CW) There are several categories for correction, as I see it by order of occurrence...(and there may be more) 1 - People who use full Doppler correction via software, adjusting both TX and RX to stay on the satellite's frequency. 2 - People who use half Doppler correction by tuning the higher of two frequencies. This is common for people who are portable or want the simplest method of staying on another station. In the mode, you will move slightly. I do this often in the field. It's not perfect. 3 - People who use TX only correction. I see this often and I believe it's an incorrect practice to always tune TX because sometimes that means on mode J you'll likely move across QSO's in progress. 4 - Probably the least common I observe, people who use full Doppler correction manually. I believe it is a little more difficult to do this on fast moving LEO's, especially on CW. My original email was trying to discover whether or not listening on USB while transmitting on CW might make it easier for CW drifters to know they are part of a problem. Occasionally when this problem occurs with USB voice, the perpetrating stations are not able to hear well enough to know they are causing a problem. 73 Clayton W5PFG On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Ng, Peter peter...@bccdc.ca wrote: Yes, the frequency in use by the CW station that is not adjusting for doppler will appear to be moving for stations that are adjusting for dopplerright? Peter ve7ngp -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John Becker Sent: February 7, 2014 09:27 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW On 2/7/2014 11:18 AM, Ng, Peter wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't automatic doppler corrections dynamically change your frequency to compensate for doppler? Would this mean anyone engaging in doppler correction are actually drifting into a stable frequency? by stable do you mean a freq already being used? John, W0JAB ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
I think Patrick's comment about needing to use USB when operating CW is the key one. I also, for the very few times I have attempted CW on satellites, needed to use USB on the downlink so I could keep my return signal audible. CW in both directions, even with computer control, is more frustrating than it's worth, and our satellites aren't so weak as to need the narrowest of bandwidths to pull the signal out of the noise. I do agree that USB would definitely help with hearing what's going on around you, and I expect a nice dongle-based (waterfall) receiver would be even better. Greg KO6TH Clayton Coleman wrote: Hi Tim, I completely agree that different methods of Doppler shift correction yield slightly different results. The one true rule is a good source for guidance however some don't follow it -- even remotely. I do apologize if my generalization rubbed you the wrong way. Since your direct email indicated to me you adjust your transmit frequency on AO-7 mode B, that would indicate you are following a good practice of correction. Likely meaning you are NOT one of the stations who drift during their entire sequence of calling CQ for five minutes. Not everyone plays nice in the schoolyard. I've been known to screw up and probably am not immune from it in the future. I still wonder if the offenders listened on USB would they realize they've come onto a frequency being used by two or more stations engaged in a voice QSO? 73 Clayton W5PFG On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 3:45 PM, t...@n3tl.com wrote: I'm hoping this post makes it to the AMSAT-BB, although I have sent Mr. Coleman a longer response directly. I have to take issue with this statement, Mr. Coleman, which begins your second sentence in response to Mr. Ng: A station not adjusting properly for Doppler shift Computer-control stations and manual-control stations are adjusting for Doppler differently. I have done - and will continue to do - both. In my opinion, neither is incorrect; they simply differ from each other. 73 and God Bless, Tim - N3TL Evansville, Ind. - EM68 Original Message Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW From: Clayton Coleman kayakfis...@gmail.com Date: Fri, February 07, 2014 2:04 pm To: Ng, Peter peter...@bccdc.ca Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org amsat-bb@amsat.org Peter, That is correct and what I have attempted to describe. A station not adjusting properly for Doppler shift will appear to move across the passband into stations who are making corrections. (voice or CW) There are several categories for correction, as I see it by order of occurrence...(and there may be more) 1 - People who use full Doppler correction via software, adjusting both TX and RX to stay on the satellite's frequency. 2 - People who use half Doppler correction by tuning the higher of two frequencies. This is common for people who are portable or want the simplest method of staying on another station. In the mode, you will move slightly. I do this often in the field. It's not perfect. 3 - People who use TX only correction. I see this often and I believe it's an incorrect practice to always tune TX because sometimes that means on mode J you'll likely move across QSO's in progress. 4 - Probably the least common I observe, people who use full Doppler correction manually. I believe it is a little more difficult to do this on fast moving LEO's, especially on CW. My original email was trying to discover whether or not listening on USB while transmitting on CW might make it easier for CW drifters to know they are part of a problem. Occasionally when this problem occurs with USB voice, the perpetrating stations are not able to hear well enough to know they are causing a problem. 73 Clayton W5PFG On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Ng, Peter peter...@bccdc.ca wrote: Yes, the frequency in use by the CW station that is not adjusting for doppler will appear to be moving for stations that are adjusting for dopplerright? Peter ve7ngp -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of John Becker Sent: February 7, 2014 09:27 To: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW On 2/7/2014 11:18 AM, Ng, Peter wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't automatic doppler corrections dynamically change your frequency to compensate for doppler? Would this mean anyone engaging in doppler correction are actually drifting into a stable frequency? by stable do you mean a freq already being used? John, W0JAB ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Many times I have been engaged in a QSO only to have someone CQ'ing on CW drift across my existing QSO. Anyone who operates satellites has probably had this happen to them many times. Sometimes myself or others in QSO may try to tell the CW operator Hello - QSO in progress but it is apparent they are not hearing us. My question is, does it make sense for people using CW on the satellites to have their receiver set to USB? Do some operators do this? At first I was a little confused by the question... CW receive on almost any rig I have ever used IS USB receive (as opposed to LSB), just a different dial setting, perhaps with a slightly narrower bandwidth. Then I realized you are asking because of the passband inverting... Since CW is neither LSB or USB, just a carrier, then yes, the norm is to listen for CW with the down link set to CW or USB depending on preference. But to address the issue of who is passing over who... is it not also possible from the prospective of the CW op that it is the SSB QSOs that are passing over them causing QRM? I've tried about four times now to write an explanation of how one used to operate, but the bottom line is, if a station is running with manual doppler correction and sending CW, my experience is he doesn't adjust the transmit VFO while sending... the receiving station adjusts the receive VFO while copying and then on the 'over' as he starts to send adjusts his transmit to match where he heard the other station last in the downlink. (It's also my experience that manual tuning SSB stations did the exact same thing.) So compared to doppler correction and possibly the one true rule, the manual tuning stations drifted... BUT, please understand that part of my confusion in remembering is that I mostly worked mode K, which was a different animal; you never adjusted uplink due to being on an HF band... you might drift into a terrestrial QSO. I did work a little mode A for a while and we sometimes had mode KA active. But, it was never a problem that I could tell because the lower half of the passband was CW and the upper half was SSB and usually they were equally occupied. Nowadays SSB far outnumbers CW. (I would work more CW if more stations were on... I prefer it; guess that's a catch 22 thing now, huh.) I am merely suggesting that a CW op is more likely to be an 'old school op' and more likely to use 'manual correction'... in other words, more likely to 'tune the old way'. I may be way off base here, but it's my honest estimation/recollection. However, if I am right, then your characterization of the CW drifting across the SSB QSO as opposed to the SSB stations drifting across a CW QSO (which happened to me many times last summer) is perspective biased. It boils down to what is considered a 'stable frequency' as another poster said... relative to ground reception or passband edges. It is a very old discussion in ham radio... AM versus SSB was one of the earliest issues of group norms versus emerging technology. Meaning, the evolving technology began to force a change in accepted norms as the technology was adopted. And the points of view were equally biased... 'SSB does not have good sound quality'... 'AM takes up too much bandwidth'. But people still operate AM today. Room is still made for both and they can co-exist. However, I must admit it is a quandary when the practice in question involves shifting frequencies and how to do it. I'm merely saying, for you the CW station is the offender and for a seasoned manual tuning op the fancy computer doppler guys are the offenders. The question is whether to argue or how to co exist? But to address what I think you were actually asking... As a CW op I can tell you that you will hear a CW signal sweep by with greater ease because the intelligence is communicated by simple on/off keying and can therefore be heard and copied over a greater time period. But from the CW ops point of view, sweeping SSB is charlie brown's teacher sounds changing pitch and the period in which the speech is intelligible is a fleeting amount of time... In other words what the ear catches is, Wub-wub-wub-in QSO-squeak-squeak-squeak, where as you hear the beeping all the way through. Because like most any male we still draw on the genetically passed down ability to narrow our focus to only that prey which we seek to the ignorance of all else. =^D 73 and hope to see you back on the birds soon... Kevin, N4UFO ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Listening on USB when operating CW
Computer-control stations and manual-control stations are adjusting for Doppler differently. I have done - and will continue to do - both. In my opinion, neither is incorrect; they simply differ from each other. This was posted during the assemblage of my long winded reply. I think it gets at the same thing I was beating around the bush at. I'm glad to know when I am eventually able to get back on the linear birds (yagis, preamps, cables and rotor in the closet... conduit for burying piled up outside) I will be able to find someone to work without getting my rig hooked up to a PC. (It will be enough to get the rotor hooked up to one!) I just hope I can remember which dial to turn when... anyone hearing me screw the pooch, please send instructions promptly! X^D 73 all, Kevin, N4UFO proud to be a full fledged Gridiot! ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
