[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities
Hello Peter, I understand the current situation and and do not think that there should be any change in the direction of the P3E project keeping into mind the time and money spent by AMSAT DL on this project, we have sent you the list of contacts in ISRO some months back and AMSAT India can initiate talks with ISRO on the same, we can discuss this offline, feel free to ping me when free. 73 Nitin [VU3TYG] Secretary,AMSAT INDIA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Is the P3-E satellite actually ready and available to be matched up to a rocket for launch into a high elliptical space orbit? -Original Message- From: Peter Guelzow Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 5:33 PM To: Andrew Glasbrenner Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities? On 28.01.2012 01:34, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: Back to P3E. I like David's idea. I'd like even more to hear something similar from Peter or Hartmut. I've donated to P3E in the past, and voted as a BOD member to help fund their lab out of the -NA reserves several years ago. I love the project, but until I hear a little more positive about what's currently going on over there, my money will continue to go to Kiwisat, FunCube, and first and foremost, Fox. I am the proud sponsor of a solar cell on Fox, and hope to be able to do more this year. Have you heard we find out if we (AMSAT-NA and Fox) get one of the NASA launches on Monday? Hi Drew et all, indeed all money donated to the P3-E project goes into the P3-E project and we are grateful for all those direct contributions and support in particular from many individual AMSAT-NA members and indeed many other hams from around the world. Due to ITAR, unfortunatly AMSAT-NA had to stop all it's official support (including money, which hurts) for P3-E several years ago, as you wrote.. For example, we had to re-build and continue the IHU hardware and software development on our own resources. The same for the original SDX development, etc. The S/C is still sitting in our clean room in Marburg and waiting to be finalized. Having no firm launch date yet, activities slowed down in some areas, while other activities and groups are highly active and well alive. The biggest problem is indeed having no firm launch date yet.. this is frustration for everyone involved. We all put so much volunteer work and time into it... When I read "Forget P3-E, build an MEO" (that's how I read it first) I was indeed very concerned.. should we really forget all the hard work, time and money which already went into the project and scrap it??? And what than?No - I'm not giving up... OK, reading the second time I understood that Dave meant we should put P3-E on VEGA and use it's propulsion to go to MEO... Unfortunately things are not so easy.. P3-E was designed to go from GTO into HEO. For example, all the magnetic attitude control won't work in MEO anymore, etc..Thus we were looking for GTO, but would it fit on VEGA? Indeed, we could try an elliptical orbit with a much lower apogee, but than we have to carefully study the effects of orbit resonances which caused AO-13 to burn-up too soon. However, I do sympathize with the idea and we thought about it in the past, but discarded the idea for reasons I have almost forgotten now.So, perhaps we should look again at it.. do some orbit and fuel calculation, study orbit perturbations and orbit stability again and see what the impact will be on the S/C design.Any volunteers for that? As Nitin wrote, we contacted AMSAT-India to help with contacts to ISRO, we are in contact with SpaceX and I recently had a personal letter exchange with the CEO of Arianespace. If a launch possibility arises, we will be on it. It is not always a matter of money, but also a matter of compatibility to slip in. Ariane-5 for example is a real workhorse now with standard launch configurations. Any change on that costs them a lot of money. If there is an "unusual" configuration were they have to ask industry for a configuration change, than it might also be easier for us to slip in.. That simply means we have to wait for the right moment or finding new qualification flight.. Ariane 5ME is such opportunity we are actively working on, but this will not be before 2018. In the last several month our work and priority was mostly focused regarding our funding situation and to improve it. Although most people still did not understand it, but the P5-A project is one these opportunity we need. It is well alive and currently heavily discussed within the highest ranks inside of our government organizations. Apart from this, we are currently working on another project to fly an hosted payload on a GEO satellite... A decision is not made yet, but if we get the opportunity it will provide some neat communication capabilities. Our previous heritage and P5 will help here too.. I'm currently having some serious family matters to take care off, so please be patient if I do not reply quickly.. 73s Peter DB2OS ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.o
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
On 28.01.2012 01:34, Andrew Glasbrenner wrote: > Back to P3E. I like David's idea. I'd like even more to hear something > similar from Peter or Hartmut. I've donated to P3E in the past, and voted as > a BOD member to help fund their lab out of the -NA reserves several years > ago. I love the project, but until I hear a little more positive about what's > currently going on over there, my money will continue to go to Kiwisat, > FunCube, and first and foremost, Fox. I am the proud sponsor of a solar cell > on Fox, and hope to be able to do more this year. > > Have you heard we find out if we (AMSAT-NA and Fox) get one of the NASA > launches on Monday? Hi Drew et all, indeed all money donated to the P3-E project goes into the P3-E project and we are grateful for all those direct contributions and support in particular from many individual AMSAT-NA members and indeed many other hams from around the world. Due to ITAR, unfortunatly AMSAT-NA had to stop all it's official support (including money, which hurts) for P3-E several years ago, as you wrote.. For example, we had to re-build and continue the IHU hardware and software development on our own resources. The same for the original SDX development, etc. The S/C is still sitting in our clean room in Marburg and waiting to be finalized. Having no firm launch date yet, activities slowed down in some areas, while other activities and groups are highly active and well alive. The biggest problem is indeed having no firm launch date yet.. this is frustration for everyone involved. We all put so much volunteer work and time into it... When I read "Forget P3-E, build an MEO" (that's how I read it first) I was indeed very concerned.. should we really forget all the hard work, time and money which already went into the project and scrap it??? And what than?No - I'm not giving up... OK, reading the second time I understood that Dave meant we should put P3-E on VEGA and use it's propulsion to go to MEO... Unfortunately things are not so easy.. P3-E was designed to go from GTO into HEO. For example, all the magnetic attitude control won't work in MEO anymore, etc..Thus we were looking for GTO, but would it fit on VEGA? Indeed, we could try an elliptical orbit with a much lower apogee, but than we have to carefully study the effects of orbit resonances which caused AO-13 to burn-up too soon. However, I do sympathize with the idea and we thought about it in the past, but discarded the idea for reasons I have almost forgotten now.So, perhaps we should look again at it.. do some orbit and fuel calculation, study orbit perturbations and orbit stability again and see what the impact will be on the S/C design.Any volunteers for that? As Nitin wrote, we contacted AMSAT-India to help with contacts to ISRO, we are in contact with SpaceX and I recently had a personal letter exchange with the CEO of Arianespace. If a launch possibility arises, we will be on it. It is not always a matter of money, but also a matter of compatibility to slip in. Ariane-5 for example is a real workhorse now with standard launch configurations. Any change on that costs them a lot of money. If there is an "unusual" configuration were they have to ask industry for a configuration change, than it might also be easier for us to slip in.. That simply means we have to wait for the right moment or finding new qualification flight.. Ariane 5ME is such opportunity we are actively working on, but this will not be before 2018. In the last several month our work and priority was mostly focused regarding our funding situation and to improve it. Although most people still did not understand it, but the P5-A project is one these opportunity we need. It is well alive and currently heavily discussed within the highest ranks inside of our government organizations. Apart from this, we are currently working on another project to fly an hosted payload on a GEO satellite... A decision is not made yet, but if we get the opportunity it will provide some neat communication capabilities. Our previous heritage and P5 will help here too.. I'm currently having some serious family matters to take care off, so please be patient if I do not reply quickly.. 73s Peter DB2OS ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities
We from AMSAT INDIA have written to AMSAT DL in the past and have offered to talk to ISRO in this regard for any launch opppurtunities for the Phase 3 express. 73 Nitin [VU3TYG} Secretary, AMSAT INDIA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities
We from AMSAT INDIA have written to AMSAT DL in the past and have offered to talk to ISRO in this regard for any launch opppurtunities for the Phase 3 express. 73 Nitin [VU3TYG} Secretary, AMSAT INDIA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
This is not a forum for politics, but a little pressure where it is needed to promote as much new young blood as we can to get interested in "launch science and ham radio satellites". At 04:34 PM 1/27/2012, you wrote: > >Drew's Evil Twin ?? > That would be KU4OS. Or more correctly I am -his- evil twin (the one with the black beard, sash, and dagger). Back to P3E. I like David's idea. I'd like even more to hear something similar from Peter or Hartmut. I've donated to P3E in the past, and voted as a BOD member to help fund their lab out of the -NA reserves several years ago. I love the project, but until I hear a little more positive about what's currently going on over there, my money will continue to go to Kiwisat, FunCube, and first and foremost, Fox. I am the proud sponsor of a solar cell on Fox, and hope to be able to do more this year. Have you heard we find out if we (AMSAT-NA and Fox) get one of the NASA launches on Monday? 73, Drew KO4MA 73, Dave, WB6LLO dguim...@san.rr.com Disagree: I learn Pulling for P3E... ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
> >Drew's Evil Twin ?? > That would be KU4OS. Or more correctly I am -his- evil twin (the one with the black beard, sash, and dagger). Back to P3E. I like David's idea. I'd like even more to hear something similar from Peter or Hartmut. I've donated to P3E in the past, and voted as a BOD member to help fund their lab out of the -NA reserves several years ago. I love the project, but until I hear a little more positive about what's currently going on over there, my money will continue to go to Kiwisat, FunCube, and first and foremost, Fox. I am the proud sponsor of a solar cell on Fox, and hope to be able to do more this year. Have you heard we find out if we (AMSAT-NA and Fox) get one of the NASA launches on Monday? 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Drew's Evil Twin ?? TK, K7TRK -Original Message- From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Glasbrenner Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 4:06 PM To: Dave Guimont Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities? Who is Andy? 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone On Jan 27, 2012, at 6:47 PM, Dave Guimont wrote: > Great Andy, > > Let us all be positive, follow Andy's lead, plus send in a buck or two!! > > >> > >> >Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega >> >development flights (1500km?) >> > >> >Then use propulsion to get to MEO. >> > >> >> >> Best idea I've heard yet. >> >> 73, Drew KO4MA >> >> >> ___ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > >73, Dave, WB6LLO >dguim...@san.rr.com > >Disagree: I learn > > Pulling for P3E... ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Who is Andy? 73, Drew KO4MA Sent from my iPhone On Jan 27, 2012, at 6:47 PM, Dave Guimont wrote: > Great Andy, > > Let us all be positive, follow Andy's lead, plus send in a buck or two!! > > >> > >> >Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega >> >development flights (1500km?) >> > >> >Then use propulsion to get to MEO. >> > >> >> >> Best idea I've heard yet. >> >> 73, Drew KO4MA >> >> >> ___ >> Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. >> Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! >> Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb > > > >73, Dave, WB6LLO >dguim...@san.rr.com > >Disagree: I learn > > Pulling for P3E... ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
At 09:31 AM 1/28/2012, g0...@aol.com wrote: Oh.. Another (more serious) possibility. Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega development flights (1500km?) Then use propulsion to get to MEO. Better than sitting on the ground and it tests the propulsion systems and software for P5A Sounds like an idea. It seems for the future, having out own propulsion is going to be a must, and yes, it is rocket science and we're just gonna have to make it work. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Great Andy, Let us all be positive, follow Andy's lead, plus send in a buck or two!! > >Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega >development flights (1500km?) > >Then use propulsion to get to MEO. > Best idea I've heard yet. 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb 73, Dave, WB6LLO dguim...@san.rr.com Disagree: I learn Pulling for P3E... ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
> >Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega >development flights (1500km?) > >Then use propulsion to get to MEO. > Best idea I've heard yet. 73, Drew KO4MA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Yeah!!! Let's keep at 'em David. Propulsion "is" the only answer we have to a better orbit. Sure - it has difficulties but then the challenge will be worth it. A 3U with 2U worth of propulsion should do it. Regards...Bill - N6GHz On 1/27/2012 2:31 PM, g0...@aol.com wrote: Oh.. Another (more serious) possibility. Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega development flights (1500km?) Then use propulsion to get to MEO. Better than sitting on the ground and it tests the propulsion systems and software for P5A David G0MRF In a message dated 27/01/2012 22:10:25 GMT Standard Time, n8...@usa.net writes: 2. China's Long March Serious ITAR problems... ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
--- On Fri, 27/1/12, g0...@aol.com wrote: > Surely No ITAR problems, as AMSAT-NA pulled out > of the P3E development due to ITAR. > > Don't forget to add Iran or North Korea (Hi) Problem is those launch organisation that have proved they can get to GTO (SpaceX haven't proven they can yet) know how much they can charge for it so you come back to needing millions of dollars to get P3E up there. 73 Trevor M5AKA ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Oh.. Another (more serious) possibility. Forget GTO and negotiate a low cost launch on one of the remaining 5 Vega development flights (1500km?) Then use propulsion to get to MEO. Better than sitting on the ground and it tests the propulsion systems and software for P5A David G0MRF In a message dated 27/01/2012 22:10:25 GMT Standard Time, n8...@usa.net writes: >2. China's Long March Serious ITAR problems... ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Hi Dan. SurelyNo ITAR problems, as AMSAT-NA pulled out of the P3E development due to ITAR. Don't forget to add Iran or North Korea (Hi) David G0MRF In a message dated 27/01/2012 22:10:25 GMT Standard Time, n8...@usa.net writes: >2. China's Long March Serious ITAR problems... >3. India's GSLV Less serious ITAR problems, there is an active Amsat group in India, maybe it can happen if they can find the right connections. ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
[amsat-bb] Re: Phase 3 Express Launch Opportunities?
Dwight & Lisa Dopilka wrote: >Despite the increased cost to launch a Phase 3E class >spacecraft into a GTO type orbit it would seem a >multitude of launchers are possibilities such as: >1. Molniya 8K78 launch vehicles from Plesetsk and >Baikonur. I believe several dozens of Molniya 1, 2, >and 3 series have been launch since 1965. This launch >would be ideal and no propulsive component would be needed. I am not aware of secondary launch capacity on this rocket, but if you have connections in the Russian space program, fell free to pursue this. >2. China's Long March Serious ITAR problems... >3. India's GSLV Less serious ITAR problems, there is an active Amsat group in India, maybe it can happen if they can find the right connections. >4. Japan's H-IIA Ask JAMSAT about possibility of launching on Japanese vehicles. It has been done in the past. >5. Space-X Falcon 9 Space-X prefers to deal through third party brokers for secondary launches of small satellites, so be prepared to pay for the middleman's cut. Secondary payload launch prices on Falcon will start at around $10 million and go up from there, or so I am told. >6. Ariane 5 ME debut 2018 Ariane is now fully commercial, they won't give us a free ride when they can sell that ride for a few million dollars or euros. Amsat-DL has not been able to get an Ariane launch for Phase 3E, which is all but ready to go. The people who helped us get free launches in the past are now retired or deceased, and the new generation of Ariane management is committed to full cost accounting, so that no one rides for free anymore. >Also, what happen to the rideshare option? Many Amsat people, including myself, have attended rideshare meetings for years. Everybody in the rideshare business knows about Amsat and that we are looking for a cheap ride. The trouble is that in today's world small satellites are useful for many commercial and military purposes, and those guys can raise the $10 or $20 million to pay the actual integration cost of adding a secondary payload to a launch vehicle. There was a time way back when, when small satellites were thought to be toys with no useful purpose, that hams could "bolt one on" for free. Amsat proved to the world that small satellites are useful and valuable, and now everybody wants to build and launch them. We are priced out of the market that we helped to create. Ironic isn't it... We are working, mostly behind the scenes, on stuff we can't usually talk about until it happens. We are working hard to find launch and mission partners for Amsat. I for one do not wish to be launching Cubesats for the rest of my life. Dan Schultz N8FGV ___ Sent via AMSAT-BB@amsat.org. Opinions expressed are those of the author. Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program! Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
