[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
Now I dont know if I could finish my project, but it is only for my problems. First because I discovered the Challenger very late, second I got a job that consumes almost my time and third I got 2 years old twin that consumes almost my sleep time :)). But same I want to thank to everybody here in this group for your advices. Especially to hackbod, Dan U., Megha Joshi and Romain Guy. They are always given a promply anwser with important tips. Thanks to them, thanks to everybody !!! And good luck to Google with this new technology. Jorge. On 7 abr, 23:18, jtaylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's important for the Android team and for the Open Handset Alliance and its members, that's important for Google. That's also important for the developer community and for the end users. Hello Jean-Baptiste, I suggest that the aim be for the phones to come out in 2009. If everyone is patient, then that will be a proof of cooperation. The Android Team doesn't needs phones for 2008. Neither does the OHA. And there can be more Developer Challenges. More Developer Challenges would appear to be important in two ways. To perfect Android and also for Google promotion. ATT seeks to depart more away from Google apps which is reasonable for them. However, Google has the Cloud and that Cloud can come out in creative ways through a couple more Developer Challenges. At the risk of being melodramatic, Android is the most important piece of software in human history. I really don't think it should be rushed. Everyone should be patient and that Patience will pay off. - Juan On Mar 29, 12:28 pm, Jean-Baptiste Queru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Notice: I'm a Google Software Engineer working on Android). One aspect which I hope is reasonably clear in everybody's minds is that getting devices available is really at the top of the priority list for everyone involved in Android. That's important for the Android team and for the Open Handset Alliance and its members, that's important for Google. That's also important for the developer community and for the end users. From that point of view, every day that passes without devices out there hurts the entire Android ecosystem, and therefore has a high cost. Because of that, whenever anyone has to choose between doing something that directly helps ship those first devices and something that doesn't directly help, the latter option has to carry a very high value in order to outweigh for the cost of delaying the first devices. That's why the SDK isn't as polished as it could be, that's why Google employees aren't as present on those forums as they could be: it would distract from the primary goal of shipping devices in 2008. It might sound surprising to many, but Google only has a finite number of people who are currently familiar enough with Android to be able to make a significant difference on either the ship date or the SDK and the developer community. It takes time and it takes money to grow a team, Google has a significant amount of money but remains careful about how they spend it like any well-managed company, and they can't do anything about time: even by having people work hard, there's always a limit to how much work any single person can achieve every day. All that explains why you're not seeing dozens of engineers spending several hours every day answering questions and helping people on the forums, or preparing a new SDK every other week: at the end of the timeline toward the first devices, that would result in delays that would be counted in weeks or even months. Having to choose is painful, because we'd all like to get the best of both worlds. You can't have your (proverbial) cake and eat it too, and right now we're a bitstuck between a (proverbial) rock and a (proverbial) hard place. Back to the issue of the SDK, I think that you've put the finger on one of one of the aspects that are hard to balance: how early and how often should it be released. Too early, and developers get some software that is too unstable and too far from the final product to be valuable. Not early enough, and developers don't have time to get familiar with it, provide valuable feedback and have applications ready for the first device. Too often, and developers will spend too much time chasing porting their code from one release to another and the whole ecosystem will be confused about what works and what doesn't in every release. Not often enough, and some developers will bestuckfor weeks on bugs that may have been fixed but be unavailable. And, like I said earlier, early and often have a negative impact on the ship date. During the software development cycle of a framework, you're likely to see 3 phases: bringup, unstable, and stabilization. During the bringup phase, the software improves quickly, but it is too rough and too far from its final shape to be valuable to many people
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
That's important for the Android team and for the Open Handset Alliance and its members, that's important for Google. That's also important for the developer community and for the end users. Hello Jean-Baptiste, I suggest that the aim be for the phones to come out in 2009. If everyone is patient, then that will be a proof of cooperation. The Android Team doesn't needs phones for 2008. Neither does the OHA. And there can be more Developer Challenges. More Developer Challenges would appear to be important in two ways. To perfect Android and also for Google promotion. ATT seeks to depart more away from Google apps which is reasonable for them. However, Google has the Cloud and that Cloud can come out in creative ways through a couple more Developer Challenges. At the risk of being melodramatic, Android is the most important piece of software in human history. I really don't think it should be rushed. Everyone should be patient and that Patience will pay off. - Juan On Mar 29, 12:28 pm, Jean-Baptiste Queru [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Notice: I'm a Google Software Engineer working on Android). One aspect which I hope is reasonably clear in everybody's minds is that getting devices available is really at the top of the priority list for everyone involved in Android. That's important for the Android team and for the Open Handset Alliance and its members, that's important for Google. That's also important for the developer community and for the end users. From that point of view, every day that passes without devices out there hurts the entire Android ecosystem, and therefore has a high cost. Because of that, whenever anyone has to choose between doing something that directly helps ship those first devices and something that doesn't directly help, the latter option has to carry a very high value in order to outweigh for the cost of delaying the first devices. That's why the SDK isn't as polished as it could be, that's why Google employees aren't as present on those forums as they could be: it would distract from the primary goal of shipping devices in 2008. It might sound surprising to many, but Google only has a finite number of people who are currently familiar enough with Android to be able to make a significant difference on either the ship date or the SDK and the developer community. It takes time and it takes money to grow a team, Google has a significant amount of money but remains careful about how they spend it like any well-managed company, and they can't do anything about time: even by having people work hard, there's always a limit to how much work any single person can achieve every day. All that explains why you're not seeing dozens of engineers spending several hours every day answering questions and helping people on the forums, or preparing a new SDK every other week: at the end of the timeline toward the first devices, that would result in delays that would be counted in weeks or even months. Having to choose is painful, because we'd all like to get the best of both worlds. You can't have your (proverbial) cake and eat it too, and right now we're a bitstuck between a (proverbial) rock and a (proverbial) hard place. Back to the issue of the SDK, I think that you've put the finger on one of one of the aspects that are hard to balance: how early and how often should it be released. Too early, and developers get some software that is too unstable and too far from the final product to be valuable. Not early enough, and developers don't have time to get familiar with it, provide valuable feedback and have applications ready for the first device. Too often, and developers will spend too much time chasing porting their code from one release to another and the whole ecosystem will be confused about what works and what doesn't in every release. Not often enough, and some developers will bestuckfor weeks on bugs that may have been fixed but be unavailable. And, like I said earlier, early and often have a negative impact on the ship date. During the software development cycle of a framework, you're likely to see 3 phases: bringup, unstable, and stabilization. During the bringup phase, the software improves quickly, but it is too rough and too far from its final shape to be valuable to many people - this is a phase that typically sees frequent releases to a very small number of close partners. During the unstable phase, the framework is large enough and is used by enough applications that it can't change quite as quickly as during the bringup, but it is still getting some very significant changes. This is the phase during which the release strategy changes from frequent limited releases to infrequent broad releases. This is the phase that M3 and M5 came from (as an example, you've all seen how the UI had changed between M3 and M5). Finally, there's a stabilization phase, where the framework gets fewer and fewer changes and gets closer and
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
The biggest problem think is the lack of synchronization, between what is on the docs and what is on code. Which takes us to scavange the forums for extra info, that might have been leaked, like stuff X actually doesn't work as documented. And this steals a lot of development time. But this is a known problem for ages. But the 3 or 4 google guys, that do answer developer questions are quite helpful, when the questions are done properly, and when you show you have done your homework. But yes, I do believe that Google should have deployed more personnel on this SDK. We are being used as Guinea Pigs, which most of us accept without problems, but that doesn't mean it's not frustrating when we get stuck on some issue, due to lack of info, mostly. Google should have prepared better for this event. Put probably, some comercial pressure rushed the SDK out of the door before it's time, and all the required infra structures where setup to handle all developers needs. We don't have a perfect world, so, we have to live with what we have. But this may have an adverse effect on developers/companies actually adopting Android. And as we all know, for a new product/service to be adopted by the masses, there is a need to overcome the required critical mass, which might be harder, given the current conditions. On 27 mar, 14:51, Anil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please post your opinion: For me, I am disappointed. There must be scores of Google-Android employees dedicated to this project, but only a handful help out in the forums (digit, hackbod, megha, romain) in their free time. Sometimes I am stuck for days and have to create application workarounds. Most of the people helping are ordinary developers like us helping each other out. Sometimes I wonder if Google is exploiting us in this whole Android project. Google, please don't exploit us, instead help us! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Announcing the new M5 SDK! http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
(Notice: I'm a Google Software Engineer working on Android). One aspect which I hope is reasonably clear in everybody's minds is that getting devices available is really at the top of the priority list for everyone involved in Android. That's important for the Android team and for the Open Handset Alliance and its members, that's important for Google. That's also important for the developer community and for the end users. From that point of view, every day that passes without devices out there hurts the entire Android ecosystem, and therefore has a high cost. Because of that, whenever anyone has to choose between doing something that directly helps ship those first devices and something that doesn't directly help, the latter option has to carry a very high value in order to outweigh for the cost of delaying the first devices. That's why the SDK isn't as polished as it could be, that's why Google employees aren't as present on those forums as they could be: it would distract from the primary goal of shipping devices in 2008. It might sound surprising to many, but Google only has a finite number of people who are currently familiar enough with Android to be able to make a significant difference on either the ship date or the SDK and the developer community. It takes time and it takes money to grow a team, Google has a significant amount of money but remains careful about how they spend it like any well-managed company, and they can't do anything about time: even by having people work hard, there's always a limit to how much work any single person can achieve every day. All that explains why you're not seeing dozens of engineers spending several hours every day answering questions and helping people on the forums, or preparing a new SDK every other week: at the end of the timeline toward the first devices, that would result in delays that would be counted in weeks or even months. Having to choose is painful, because we'd all like to get the best of both worlds. You can't have your (proverbial) cake and eat it too, and right now we're a bit stuck between a (proverbial) rock and a (proverbial) hard place. Back to the issue of the SDK, I think that you've put the finger on one of one of the aspects that are hard to balance: how early and how often should it be released. Too early, and developers get some software that is too unstable and too far from the final product to be valuable. Not early enough, and developers don't have time to get familiar with it, provide valuable feedback and have applications ready for the first device. Too often, and developers will spend too much time chasing porting their code from one release to another and the whole ecosystem will be confused about what works and what doesn't in every release. Not often enough, and some developers will be stuck for weeks on bugs that may have been fixed but be unavailable. And, like I said earlier, early and often have a negative impact on the ship date. During the software development cycle of a framework, you're likely to see 3 phases: bringup, unstable, and stabilization. During the bringup phase, the software improves quickly, but it is too rough and too far from its final shape to be valuable to many people - this is a phase that typically sees frequent releases to a very small number of close partners. During the unstable phase, the framework is large enough and is used by enough applications that it can't change quite as quickly as during the bringup, but it is still getting some very significant changes. This is the phase during which the release strategy changes from frequent limited releases to infrequent broad releases. This is the phase that M3 and M5 came from (as an example, you've all seen how the UI had changed between M3 and M5). Finally, there's a stabilization phase, where the framework gets fewer and fewer changes and gets closer and closer to its final shape. That's the phase when there can be frequent broad releases, that's the phase during which beta programs happen. What you've seen so far was definitely in the unstable phase, and when such a project gets into a stabilization phase is can make sense to consider more frequent releases, which in the case of Android must be weighed against the impact that such releases can have on the final ship date or on the developer challenge. Releasing Android SDKs is harder than it seems while in the unstable period, because of the number of people and companies who work on it and who therefore need to synchronize their efforts to reach a point where every module is reasonable usable at the same time. During a stabilization phase when fewer regressions happen, it's easier to pick almost any point in time and to use that as a starting point for an SDK. I'll wrap up with a third aspect: a view ahead. Even though there seem to be new mobile phones being released all the time everywhere, if you look closely things are actually moving fairly slowing in the mobile industry.
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
Thanks J, that is an excellent explanation. Good to know the focus is on getting Android devices into the hands of consumers. While I'd love to see more SDK improvements (like everyone else), without actual devices out there, our dev work isn't going anywhere. -Andrew Jean-Baptiste Queru wrote: (Notice: I'm a Google Software Engineer working on Android). One aspect which I hope is reasonably clear in everybody's minds is that getting devices available is really at the top of the priority list for everyone involved in Android. That's important for the Android team and for the Open Handset Alliance and its members, that's important for Google. That's also important for the developer community and for the end users. From that point of view, every day that passes without devices out there hurts the entire Android ecosystem, and therefore has a high cost. Because of that, whenever anyone has to choose between doing something that directly helps ship those first devices and something that doesn't directly help, the latter option has to carry a very high value in order to outweigh for the cost of delaying the first devices. That's why the SDK isn't as polished as it could be, that's why Google employees aren't as present on those forums as they could be: it would distract from the primary goal of shipping devices in 2008. It might sound surprising to many, but Google only has a finite number of people who are currently familiar enough with Android to be able to make a significant difference on either the ship date or the SDK and the developer community. It takes time and it takes money to grow a team, Google has a significant amount of money but remains careful about how they spend it like any well-managed company, and they can't do anything about time: even by having people work hard, there's always a limit to how much work any single person can achieve every day. All that explains why you're not seeing dozens of engineers spending several hours every day answering questions and helping people on the forums, or preparing a new SDK every other week: at the end of the timeline toward the first devices, that would result in delays that would be counted in weeks or even months. Having to choose is painful, because we'd all like to get the best of both worlds. You can't have your (proverbial) cake and eat it too, and right now we're a bit stuck between a (proverbial) rock and a (proverbial) hard place. Back to the issue of the SDK, I think that you've put the finger on one of one of the aspects that are hard to balance: how early and how often should it be released. Too early, and developers get some software that is too unstable and too far from the final product to be valuable. Not early enough, and developers don't have time to get familiar with it, provide valuable feedback and have applications ready for the first device. Too often, and developers will spend too much time chasing porting their code from one release to another and the whole ecosystem will be confused about what works and what doesn't in every release. Not often enough, and some developers will be stuck for weeks on bugs that may have been fixed but be unavailable. And, like I said earlier, early and often have a negative impact on the ship date. During the software development cycle of a framework, you're likely to see 3 phases: bringup, unstable, and stabilization. During the bringup phase, the software improves quickly, but it is too rough and too far from its final shape to be valuable to many people - this is a phase that typically sees frequent releases to a very small number of close partners. During the unstable phase, the framework is large enough and is used by enough applications that it can't change quite as quickly as during the bringup, but it is still getting some very significant changes. This is the phase during which the release strategy changes from frequent limited releases to infrequent broad releases. This is the phase that M3 and M5 came from (as an example, you've all seen how the UI had changed between M3 and M5). Finally, there's a stabilization phase, where the framework gets fewer and fewer changes and gets closer and closer to its final shape. That's the phase when there can be frequent broad releases, that's the phase during which beta programs happen. What you've seen so far was definitely in the unstable phase, and when such a project gets into a stabilization phase is can make sense to consider more frequent releases, which in the case of Android must be weighed against the impact that such releases can have on the final ship date or on the developer challenge. Releasing Android SDKs is harder than it seems while in the unstable period, because of the number of people and companies who work on it and who therefore need to synchronize their efforts to reach a point where every module is reasonable usable at the same time. During a
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
Just to explain: When I say you I mean Google. On 28 mar, 20:23, GUS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just had an idea!!! You could do something like a prize called Cooperation Prize, with no benefits. Just as recognition for those who send good projects, but don't win the challenge. List the names of the participants somewhere on the Android's site would be awesome. What do you think? Gus. ;p On 27 mar, 14:49, Dan Morrill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Peli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this sense, the Android team sticked to the Google code hosting motto (http://code.google.com/hosting/) release early, release often on the first part - they indeed released a pre-alpha SDK - but I personally think they could have done better on the release often part. We agree, actually. :) Unfortunately since we are focused on shipping the first devices, we have to balance the work involved in packaging (and especially testing) SDK releases against the work on the platform itself. I don't know whether another update would be released before the challenge deadline. Given that it less than 2 1/2 weeks from now, I'd say it is rather unlikely that many developers will risk having to debug their programs from scratch again Yes, for exactly this reason we don't plan to release another major SDK before the deadline. It would not be cool to release a new SDK with tons of changes mere weeks before the deadline. Some developers would feel compelled to pull all-nighters to upgrade, and that's not what we intend. - Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Announcing the new M5 SDK! http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
My 2 cents: I am satisfied. The software has just come out. The examples and documentation are great for pre-alpha as it has been called here. In fact, for pre-alpha software it behaves remarkably well. I would have like to have seen the Java library source released as it would have made things much easier, but I understand the limitations on time and resources. Besides it gave me the nostalgic feelings of being back in the pre-Internet development days where I had to discover functionality without the masses of help we have these days. It has been and is great fun. So, disappointed - no. I think it has been a great effort on the developer's part to provide what they have. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Announcing the new M5 SDK! http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
I for myself found the help given in this forum quite ample. For most of the questions I came across there were already useful answers in the forum. I tried not to work against Android, but tried to see what is possible and implement features based on that. (for example, I would not have tried to fix the key mode / touch mode issue creating workarounds for the m5 behavior, as this is really something the Android team has to clean up. And if they finally change this behavior, all workarounds are useless anyway.) I profited a lot from the samples that were given, for example on the media player. What I do not understand is that certain features that worked in m3 and broke in m5 have not been fixed earlier, like sound recording. I understand that Android itself is probably still undergoing massive refactoring. But it may not have been too much effort to keep a separate branch of m5 where the most critical bugs could be fixed in parallel to the work going on for future releases. In this sense, the Android team sticked to the Google code hosting motto ( http://code.google.com/hosting/ ) release early, release often on the first part - they indeed released a pre-alpha SDK - but I personally think they could have done better on the release often part. After all, fixing some bugs may help to uncover others that are still hidden. So to make most use of the challenge period where many programmers work with the SDK, even a weekly bugfix update of the SDK would not have been too often. I don't know whether another update would be released before the challenge deadline. Given that it less than 2 1/2 weeks from now, I'd say it is rather unlikely that many developers will risk having to debug their programs from scratch again - so another round of potentially valuable feedback got lost here. It is quite predictable that the interest will decrease after the end of the first deadline - but there is still challenge II. So let's see how things develop. Peli On Mar 27, 3:51 pm, Anil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please post your opinion: For me, I am disappointed. There must be scores of Google-Android employees dedicated to this project, but only a handful help out in the forums (digit, hackbod, megha, romain) in their free time. Sometimes I am stuck for days and have to create application workarounds. Most of the people helping are ordinary developers like us helping each other out. Sometimes I wonder if Google is exploiting us in this whole Android project. Google, please don't exploit us, instead help us! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Announcing the new M5 SDK! http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
Dan, Was wondering why you didn't simply release nightly builds. Harsh, I do my best to ask questions sensibly. - Anil On Mar 27, 12:49 pm, Dan Morrill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:14 AM, Peli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In this sense, the Android team sticked to the Google code hosting motto (http://code.google.com/hosting/) release early, release often on the first part - they indeed released a pre-alpha SDK - but I personally think they could have done better on the release often part. We agree, actually. :) Unfortunately since we are focused on shipping the first devices, we have to balance the work involved in packaging (and especially testing) SDK releases against the work on the platform itself. I don't know whether another update would be released before the challenge deadline. Given that it less than 2 1/2 weeks from now, I'd say it is rather unlikely that many developers will risk having to debug their programs from scratch again Yes, for exactly this reason we don't plan to release another major SDK before the deadline. It would not be cool to release a new SDK with tons of changes mere weeks before the deadline. Some developers would feel compelled to pull all-nighters to upgrade, and that's not what we intend. - Dan --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Announcing the new M5 SDK! http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[android-developers] Re: Are you satisfied or disappointed with the level of support from Google, for Android?
I think I'm more disappointed when it comes to questions about the developer challenge. I understand the lack of answers, since it's really only people from the Android dev team on here, and they probably aren't the right people to answer a lot of those questions. I guess when I have development questions, I usually just spend time experimenting with the api and that usually gets me where I want to be without needing to answer questions. On Mar 27, 7:51 am, Anil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please post your opinion: For me, I am disappointed. There must be scores of Google-Android employees dedicated to this project, but only a handful help out in the forums (digit, hackbod, megha, romain) in their free time. Sometimes I am stuck for days and have to create application workarounds. Most of the people helping are ordinary developers like us helping each other out. Sometimes I wonder if Google is exploiting us in this whole Android project. Google, please don't exploit us, instead help us! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Android Developers group. To post to this group, send email to android-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Announcing the new M5 SDK! http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/02/android-sdk-m5-rc14-now-available.html For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
