[anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread Thomas Hungenberg 
Hi,

some abuse contacts registered with RIPE use non-ascii characters with
the abuse-mailbox addresses, e.g.

% Abuse contact for '195.78.76.0 - 195.78.77.255' is 'abuse@zürich.email'

However, the corresponding MTA does not support SMTPUTF8:

7B579403C6: to=,
relay=mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50]:25, delay=0.33,
delays=0.01/0/0.32/0, dsn=5.6.7, status=bounced (SMTPUTF8 is required, but was
not offered by host mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50])

(In this particular case, sending email to the IDNA representation of the
email address  works.)

In our experience, using umlauts and other non-ascii characters in
(the host part of) email addresses still cause a lot of problems in general.
Even if the recipient's MX supports SMTPUTF8 correctly, MTAs on the transport
way may fail to handle SMTPUTF8 messages.

To prevent such problems and make sure all abuse mailboxes can be addressed,
I wonder if the values of abuse-mailbox attributes should be restricted to
ASCII characters only.

What do you think?


 - Thomas

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread David Guo via anti-abuse-wg 
Did you try IDN / Punnycode converter?

Try abuse@xn--zrich-kva.email ?


From: anti-abuse-wg  on behalf of Thomas 
Hungenberg 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:27:13 PM
To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 
Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Hi,

some abuse contacts registered with RIPE use non-ascii characters with
the abuse-mailbox addresses, e.g.

% Abuse contact for '195.78.76.0 - 195.78.77.255' is 'abuse@zürich.email'

However, the corresponding MTA does not support SMTPUTF8:

7B579403C6: to=,
relay=mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50]:25, delay=0.33,
delays=0.01/0/0.32/0, dsn=5.6.7, status=bounced (SMTPUTF8 is required, but was
not offered by host mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50])

(In this particular case, sending email to the IDNA representation of the
email address  works.)

In our experience, using umlauts and other non-ascii characters in
(the host part of) email addresses still cause a lot of problems in general.
Even if the recipient's MX supports SMTPUTF8 correctly, MTAs on the transport
way may fail to handle SMTPUTF8 messages.

To prevent such problems and make sure all abuse mailboxes can be addressed,
I wonder if the values of abuse-mailbox attributes should be restricted to
ASCII characters only.

What do you think?


 - Thomas

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread David Guo via anti-abuse-wg 
Oh you already tried and it works. I suggest RIPE can convert the IDN domains 
to punnycode on database.


From: David Guo 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:32:54 PM
To: Thomas Hungenberg ; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 

Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Did you try IDN / Punnycode converter?

Try abuse@xn--zrich-kva.email ?


From: anti-abuse-wg  on behalf of Thomas 
Hungenberg 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:27:13 PM
To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 
Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Hi,

some abuse contacts registered with RIPE use non-ascii characters with
the abuse-mailbox addresses, e.g.

% Abuse contact for '195.78.76.0 - 195.78.77.255' is 'abuse@zürich.email'

However, the corresponding MTA does not support SMTPUTF8:

7B579403C6: to=,
relay=mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50]:25, delay=0.33,
delays=0.01/0/0.32/0, dsn=5.6.7, status=bounced (SMTPUTF8 is required, but was
not offered by host mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50])

(In this particular case, sending email to the IDNA representation of the
email address  works.)

In our experience, using umlauts and other non-ascii characters in
(the host part of) email addresses still cause a lot of problems in general.
Even if the recipient's MX supports SMTPUTF8 correctly, MTAs on the transport
way may fail to handle SMTPUTF8 messages.

To prevent such problems and make sure all abuse mailboxes can be addressed,
I wonder if the values of abuse-mailbox attributes should be restricted to
ASCII characters only.

What do you think?


 - Thomas

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread Michele Neylon - Blacknight 
Why?

It’s an EAI issue more than anything else.

If your email client or server can’t handle UTF-8 then doing the punycode 
conversion is unlikely to help

I’d also encourage RIPE NOT to force Latin characters only – the RIPE region 
covers multiple languages which are not Latin based and if anything it should 
be leading by example

More details on EAI and UA issues here:
https://uasg.tech/
Regards

Michele


--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com/
https://blacknight.blog/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
---
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: anti-abuse-wg  on behalf of David Guo via 
anti-abuse-wg 
Reply to: David Guo 
Date: Tuesday 19 November 2019 at 13:34
To: Thomas Hungenberg , "anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" 

Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Oh you already tried and it works. I suggest RIPE can convert the IDN domains 
to punnycode on database.


From: David Guo 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:32:54 PM
To: Thomas Hungenberg ; anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 

Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Did you try IDN / Punnycode converter?

Try abuse@xn--zrich-kva.email ?


From: anti-abuse-wg  on behalf of Thomas 
Hungenberg 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:27:13 PM
To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 
Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Hi,

some abuse contacts registered with RIPE use non-ascii characters with
the abuse-mailbox addresses, e.g.

% Abuse contact for '195.78.76.0 - 195.78.77.255' is 'abuse@zürich.email'

However, the corresponding MTA does not support SMTPUTF8:

7B579403C6: to=,
relay=mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50]:25, delay=0.33,
delays=0.01/0/0.32/0, dsn=5.6.7, status=bounced (SMTPUTF8 is required, but was
not offered by host mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50])

(In this particular case, sending email to the IDNA representation of the
email address  works.)

In our experience, using umlauts and other non-ascii characters in
(the host part of) email addresses still cause a lot of problems in general.
Even if the recipient's MX supports SMTPUTF8 correctly, MTAs on the transport
way may fail to handle SMTPUTF8 messages.

To prevent such problems and make sure all abuse mailboxes can be addressed,
I wonder if the values of abuse-mailbox attributes should be restricted to
ASCII characters only.

What do you think?


 - Thomas

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread Ronald F. Guilmette 
In message , 
Thomas Hungenberg  wrote:

>To prevent such problems and make sure all abuse mailboxes can be addressed,
>I wonder if the values of abuse-mailbox attributes should be restricted to
>ASCII characters only.

This is exactly what I had suggested.  Using only punycode for domain names
would restrict the representation of the domain names in the data base to
traditional 7-bit US-ASCII.


Regards,
rfg

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread Ronald F. Guilmette 
In message <17839.1574194...@segfault.tristatelogic.com>, I wrote:

>This is exactly what I had suggested.  Using only punycode for domain names
>would restrict the representation of the domain names in the data base to
>traditional 7-bit US-ASCII.

My apologies to everyone.  When I posted that reply I didn't even notice
the fact that the representation of domain names in the data base was/is
now being discussed also on the anti-abuse mailing list.  This very topic
has already been discussed on the DB working group mailing list, which
is arguably a more appropriate place for this discussion since abuse
contact email addresses (and their associated domain name parts) are
quite certainly not the only places where email addrsses may appear
within the WHOIS data base.


Regards,
rfg

Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

2019-11-19 Thread David Guo via anti-abuse-wg 
The most important thing for me is I don’t know how to type those letters on my 
English keyboard ☹

But yes I agree, forcing Latin chars is the best way to solve this problem.

From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight 
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 3:21 PM
To: David Guo ; Thomas Hungenberg ; 
anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net
Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Why?

It’s an EAI issue more than anything else.

If your email client or server can’t handle UTF-8 then doing the punycode 
conversion is unlikely to help

I’d also encourage RIPE NOT to force Latin characters only – the RIPE region 
covers multiple languages which are not Latin based and if anything it should 
be leading by example

More details on EAI and UA issues here:
https://uasg.tech/
Regards

Michele


--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
https://www.blacknight.com/
https://blacknight.blog/
Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
---
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland  Company No.: 370845

From: anti-abuse-wg 
mailto:anti-abuse-wg-boun...@ripe.net>> on 
behalf of David Guo via anti-abuse-wg 
mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>>
Reply to: David Guo mailto:da...@xtom.com>>
Date: Tuesday 19 November 2019 at 13:34
To: Thomas Hungenberg mailto:t...@cert-bund.de>>, 
"anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net" 
mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>>
Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Oh you already tried and it works. I suggest RIPE can convert the IDN domains 
to punnycode on database.


From: David Guo mailto:da...@xtom.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:32:54 PM
To: Thomas Hungenberg mailto:t...@cert-bund.de>>; 
anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 
mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>>
Subject: Re: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Did you try IDN / Punnycode converter?

Try abuse@xn--zrich-kva.email ?


From: anti-abuse-wg 
mailto:anti-abuse-wg-boun...@ripe.net>> on 
behalf of Thomas Hungenberg mailto:t...@cert-bund.de>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 2:27:13 PM
To: anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net 
mailto:anti-abuse-wg@ripe.net>>
Subject: [anti-abuse-wg] Non-ASCII characters in abuse-mailbox addresses

Hi,

some abuse contacts registered with RIPE use non-ascii characters with
the abuse-mailbox addresses, e.g.

% Abuse contact for '195.78.76.0 - 195.78.77.255' is 'abuse@zürich.email'

However, the corresponding MTA does not support SMTPUTF8:

7B579403C6: to=mailto:abuse@zürich.email>>,
relay=mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50]:25, delay=0.33,
delays=0.01/0/0.32/0, dsn=5.6.7, status=bounced (SMTPUTF8 is required, but was
not offered by host mail.xn--zrich-kva.email[109.95.241.50])

(In this particular case, sending email to the IDNA representation of the
email address mailto:abuse@xn--zrich-kva.email>> 
works.)

In our experience, using umlauts and other non-ascii characters in
(the host part of) email addresses still cause a lot of problems in general.
Even if the recipient's MX supports SMTPUTF8 correctly, MTAs on the transport
way may fail to handle SMTPUTF8 messages.

To prevent such problems and make sure all abuse mailboxes can be addressed,
I wonder if the values of abuse-mailbox attributes should be restricted to
ASCII characters only.

What do you think?


 - Thomas