Re: *Potential Spam* RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis

[Harold J. Larsen]

Bill,

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any commercial source for the 
"Garden Dig-It" unit your link describes.  I suspect it is no longer on 
the market.  That would argue in favor of a "home manufacture" approach 
to obtaining one.


Years ago, when we were doing pre-plant soil fumigation for orchard 
replant problem control, we made soil probes using standard pipe and 
fittings.  We used 3/4" or 1" pipe, a threaded "T" for the input and 90 
o output w/ a short 6" stub (capped) on the far side of the "T" to 
provide an additional hand access point to press the probe down into the 
ground.  The long ("business") end of the probe was a 42" length of pipe 
that was screwed into the "T".  The bottom end of the long pipe had a 2 
- 3" length bolt w/ the threads ground off, just the right diameter to 
fit inside the long pipe and the bolt head built up to a tapered 
round-pointed tip to enable penetration into the soil.  The bolt had an 
elongated oval slot (~0.5" length x 1/8" width) cut through the shank 
starting at about 1" above the bolt head; then a single 1/8+" diam. hole 
was drilled through the bottom of the long pipe at ~1" above the bottom 
end, the modified bolt inserted into the pipe and turned so that the 
holes lined up, and a 1/8" diam brass rod pushed through the holes (to 
allow the end bolt assembly to slide back against the bottom of the pipe 
to seal it when pushed into the ground and to allow the bolt to slide 
out from the pipe to open the pipe end when jerked back up after the 
probe had reached the desired depth for fumigant application -- allowing 
the fumigant to disperse from around the bolt shank in the pipe into the 
surrounding soil).  We even added a brass ball-valve on the inlet side 
to allow us to shut off the fumigant once we finished the injection so 
the fumigant wasn't spewing out of the tip under pressure as we pulled 
the probe out of the ground.   The root-needle fertilizer injector units 
available from the garden centers have a very similar design (but much 
smaller and no effective shutoff valve) that allows the water pressure 
to drill the probe's path down into the root zone.


I do have photos (& diagrams) - somewhere in my computer & 35mm slide 
collection - of the probes we made.  The question would be how to get 
them on the web.  I'm pretty unskilled at that aspect of webpages -- I 
suppose I could send them to Jon Clement and he could post them and 
provide a link.  If there is interest in that, I will look for them.


My point is that the probe you are talking about for  hydro-drilling 
could easily be made in a similar manner.  The difference would be in 
the pipe bottom structure.  Instead of being a sliding tip, one might 
find a solid tip with a central hole would work better???  One could 
simply plug the pipe end with a piece of tight-fitting rod w/ a central 
hole drilled in it to provide an outlet for the water.  I suspect one 
would need to have some lateral outward & downward-angled holes to 
facilitate a lateral "drilling" function.


Any thoughts on how the bottom of the probe/drill should be designed for 
maximum efficacy / drilling efficiency?  The photo in your link looks to 
have a straight-shot stream coming out of the probe bottom end.


Harold L.

--
Dr. Harold Larsen
Res. Pathologist&  Ext. Fruit Dis. Specialist
Colo. St. Univ., WCRC - Orchard Mesa
3168  B  1/2  Road
Grand Junction, CO  81503-9621
Ph:  (970) 434-3264, x-205
FAX:  (970) 434-1035
EMail:  harold.lar...@colostate.edu


On 2/12/2010 8:30 AM, Fleming, William wrote:


Wish I could be provide pictures but my drill is 600 miles and a 
decade away.


Better yet I found a similar device that's very economical [weblink 
deleted - HL].


It doesn't have a big tip like mine did but says it will bore an 8" hole.

I used a 400 gallon air blast sprayer, fan turned off, pressure set at 
80 psi. The hose to the drill needs to be at least ¾", preferably 
heavy duty enough to drag around rough ground.


With a 100' hose I could drill holes 5-6 rows on either side of the 
sprayer before it needed to be moved. 75-100 holes could be drilled 
per 400 gallon tank.


The way you form a pipe into a point is to first cut a series of 
touching triangles out of one end. You end up with a jagged edge that 
looks like a crown. Then just hammer the triangles inward so the edges 
and points touch, weld together.


**/Bill Fleming/**

**/Montana// State University/**

**/Western Ag Research Center/**

**/580 Quast Ln/**

**/Corvallis//, MT 59828/**

**/(406)961-3025/**

Re: Apple-Crop: treatments vs genetic traits

[Ricardo]

Thank you !
  - Original Message - 
  From: Arthur Harvey 
  To: Apple-Crop 
  Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 4:34 PM
  Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: treatments vs genetic traits


From my limited experience it appears that finding varieties with 
resistant traits is a more promising  way to pursue compared with treatments.  
It is well known that certain strains of Baldwin are relatively immune to 
scab---why cannot this genetic trait be worked into other varieties.  Also, we 
have a local seedling here in western Maine which not only resists freezing 
until the first week of November---and keeps well---but also sheds 
insect-damaged apples so that only perfect ones mature.  Seems like  
characteristics that would be useful elsewhere.  

On another topic, the federal law governing organic foods was amended 
by lobbyists hired by some manufacturers, working with the so-called "Organic 
Trade Association". This will allow synthetic ingredients to be added to 
organic-labeled foods.
If this is important to you, please visit my website, 
www.RestoreOrganicLaw.org

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Dave Rosenberger  wrote:


  From: Dave Rosenberger 
  Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis
  To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
  Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 4:41 PM


  Hello, Ricardo --
  First, it would be helpful to know in what geographic area and/or 
climatic region you wish to grow organic fruit.  Options vary based on 
location, with disease control being MUCH simpler in arid production areas than 
in warm and humid production areas.
  I'm not certain that any pathologists have focused efforts on 
DISCOVERY of new products for organic tree fruit production.  Since the 1950's, 
pesticide discovery has been mostly left to commercial enterprises because 
university scientists are poorly equipped to register and commercialize new 
products.  Over the past 20 years, I am aware of perhaps a half dozen 
pathologists who have attempted to commercialize biocontrols, and most of these 
efforts have either gotten bogged down prior to commercialization or the final 
products were of such limited usefulness that they soon disappeared.
  However, I and several other pathologists at land grant 
institutions in the northeastern US have been EVALUATING new products for 
organic production over the past 15 years.  Generally, we have looked at any  
promising candidates that gained EPA registrations, although I'm certain that 
there are some  things that no one has yet evaluated because the manufacturers 
have been unable to provide even a shred of evidence or logic as to why their 
products should work. Some of these university evaluations have been done in 
certified organic orchards and some have been done via replicated plot studies 
within larger trials that included other non-organic pesticides.
  I think we all know that sulfur, copper, and lime-sulfur are 
effective against various diseases on tree fruit, and OMRI-approved 
formulations of these old stand-bys are available. Some other OMRI approved 
products may have reasonable activity against powdery mildews, but so does 
sulfur.  Furthermore, mildews are usually only a minor part of the total 
disease picture for most tree fruit crops.
  Although there is a lot of advertising and hype about biocontrols 
and new organically acceptable products that will control fungal diseases, the 
simple fact is that we still have not identified any organically-acceptable 
fungicides are consistently effective for protecting apple leaves and fruit 
from fungal diseases (i.e., that work better than copper, sulfur, or 
lime-sulfur).  I'm less familiar with recent research on stone fruits, but I 
believe that the same statement would apply.  I know that some products such as 
Serenade are being used commercially, but most growers I speak to about these 
products either have no evidence of effectiveness (i.e., no controlled 
comparisons) or they admit that they include the biofungicides just to mollify 
certifying agencies even though they recognize that these products are 
relatively ineffective..
  If other readers have opinions and evidence that contradicts my 
perspectives, I'd certainly be interested in hearing about it.

  > Is anyone aware of plant pathologists who may be working on the 
development of fungicides suitable for organic production of tree fruits?
  > 
  > Thank you
  > 
  > Ricardo Menendez
  > 

  -- ** 
Dave Rosenberger
  Professor of Plant PathologyOffice:  845-691-7231
  Cornell University's Hudson Valley LabFax:845-691-2719
  P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528Cell: 845-594-3060
  http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/faculty/r

RE: *Potential Spam* RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis

[Fleming, William]

Wish I could be provide pictures but my drill is 600 miles and a decade away.

Better yet I found a similar device that's very economical> 
http://www.bookofjoe.com/2006/04/hose_drill_dig_.html
It doesn't have a big tip like mine did but says it will bore an 8" hole.
I used a 400 gallon air blast sprayer, fan turned off, pressure set at 80 psi. 
The hose to the drill needs to be at least ¾", preferably heavy duty enough to 
drag around rough ground.
With a 100' hose I could drill holes 5-6 rows on either side of the sprayer 
before it needed to be moved. 75-100 holes could be drilled per 400 gallon tank.

The way you form a pipe into a point is to first cut a series of touching 
triangles out of one end. You end up with a jagged edge that looks like a 
crown. Then just hammer the triangles inward so the edges and points touch, 
weld together.

Bill Fleming
Montana State University
Western Ag Research Center
580 Quast Ln
Corvallis, MT 59828
(406)961-3025

From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net] On 
Behalf Of lee elliott
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 5:29 AM
To: Apple-Crop
Subject: *Potential Spam* RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis

Wish I couldsee a photo of this water drill, not clear, how do you cut,bend a 
6inch pieceof 4inch pipe, how about a photo, Lee Elliott, winchester,il

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Fleming, William  wrote:

From: Fleming, William 
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis
To: "Apple-Crop" 
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 10:09 AM
Nick, the way it works when you use a tractor drawn tree planter is the logical 
place for the trellis poles is in the groove made by the planter.
If you attach the wire to the outside of the post with stapes the wire ends up 
half the post width out of line with the tree row..
That usually ends up being the 3-4 inches you mentioned.
Even if you don't use a planter better that the posts are in line with the tree 
row, wire will then be offset from the row.

Other things I've learned:
Rather than placing the trellis posts halfway between trees place them close to 
the tree. Depending on your tree spacing placing the post midway creates a 
small "dead space" that's harder to deal with for weed control. This is 
especially true if you're organic and using mechanical weed control but the 
post can also create a herbicide spray shadow.
With the post close to the tree you end up with one extra small space and 
another space almost equal to your tree spacing.

Using water to set the posts is the best method I've found. I made a tee shaped 
handle with 3/4" steel pipe, valve on the top of the tee.
Since we were using 4-5" posts I attached a 6 inch long piece of 4" pipe at the 
bottom of the tee. It was cut, bent, and welded to a point with a 1/2" outlet 
at the bottom for the water to exit. Water at 80 psi from a sprayer is plenty. 
Volume is more important than pressure.
With a two man crew we could set a very solid post in less than 30 seconds. One 
guy with the water, the other sets the post and plumbs it. You have to work 
very fast before soil suspended in the water settled, if it takes more than a 
second before the water drill is pulled out of the hole and the post is set it 
won't be as deep as you want.
The way it worked seemed excellent to me. Rocks and gravel would settle at the 
bottom of the post hole creating good drainage for the post. The fine silt that 
settled out of the water rapidly set up almost like concrete.
Much faster than an auger, less expense than a tractor mounted pounder.






Bill Fleming
Montana State University
Western Ag Research Center
580 Quast Ln
Corvallis, MT 59828
(406)961-3025

-Original Message-
From: 
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 
[mailto:apple-crop@virtualorchard.net]
 On Behalf Of Nick Lucking
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 10:49 PM
To: 
apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis

Bill,

That's good to know.

On that note, when I plant these new trees should they be planted
directly inline with the trellis system?  Or be 2-3, or more inches
off the wire initially?  Thanks for the help, my horticulture degree
did not quite cover this!

Nick Lucking
Field Manager
Cannon Valley Orchard
Cannon Falls, MN


--

The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard
> and managed by 
Win Cowgill and Jon
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Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility fo

RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis

[lee elliott]

Wish I couldsee a photo of this water drill, not clear, how do you cut,bend a 
6inch pieceof 4inch pipe, how about a photo, Lee Elliott, winchester,il

--- On Thu, 2/11/10, Fleming, William  wrote:


From: Fleming, William 
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis
To: "Apple-Crop" 
Date: Thursday, February 11, 2010, 10:09 AM


Nick, the way it works when you use a tractor drawn tree planter is the logical 
place for the trellis poles is in the groove made by the planter.
If you attach the wire to the outside of the post with stapes the wire ends up 
half the post width out of line with the tree row.
That usually ends up being the 3-4 inches you mentioned. 
Even if you don't use a planter better that the posts are in line with the tree 
row, wire will then be offset from the row.

Other things I've learned:
Rather than placing the trellis posts halfway between trees place them close to 
the tree. Depending on your tree spacing placing the post midway creates a 
small "dead space" that's harder to deal with for weed control. This is 
especially true if you're organic and using mechanical weed control but the 
post can also create a herbicide spray shadow.
With the post close to the tree you end up with one extra small space and 
another space almost equal to your tree spacing.

Using water to set the posts is the best method I've found. I made a tee shaped 
handle with 3/4" steel pipe, valve on the top of the tee.
Since we were using 4-5" posts I attached a 6 inch long piece of 4" pipe at the 
bottom of the tee. It was cut, bent, and welded to a point with a 1/2" outlet 
at the bottom for the water to exit. Water at 80 psi from a sprayer is plenty. 
Volume is more important than pressure.
With a two man crew we could set a very solid post in less than 30 seconds. One 
guy with the water, the other sets the post and plumbs it. You have to work 
very fast before soil suspended in the water settled, if it takes more than a 
second before the water drill is pulled out of the hole and the post is set it 
won't be as deep as you want.
The way it worked seemed excellent to me. Rocks and gravel would settle at the 
bottom of the post hole creating good drainage for the post. The fine silt that 
settled out of the water rapidly set up almost like concrete. 
Much faster than an auger, less expense than a tractor mounted pounder.






Bill Fleming
Montana State University
Western Ag Research Center
580 Quast Ln
Corvallis, MT 59828
(406)961-3025

-Original Message-
From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-c...@virtualorchard.net] On 
Behalf Of Nick Lucking
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 10:49 PM
To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Attaching trees to trellis

Bill,

That's good to know.

On that note, when I plant these new trees should they be planted  
directly inline with the trellis system?  Or be 2-3, or more inches  
off the wire initially?  Thanks for the help, my horticulture degree  
did not quite cover this!

Nick Lucking
Field Manager
Cannon Valley Orchard
Cannon Falls, MN


--

The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard 
 and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon 
Clements .

Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent 
"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for 
the content.







--

The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard
 and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon
Clements .

Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent
"official" opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for
the content.