Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
On elevation - I was talking to a big name guy in apple research when I
attended the hort show and "Honeycrisp Experience" in Washington recently.
I asked him about our elevation here in Montana (3500') and the effect of
temperature drops of 40-50 degrees every night in the summer. His response
was, "you're are gonna' grow the best Honeycrisp in the western U.S."


On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:03 AM, David A. Rosenberger wrote:

>  We first planted Honeycrisp trees at our research lab in 1995, and we've
> added more HC in various plantings over the years.  From my perspective, we
> are a bit too far south (90 miles north of Manhattan) to get consistently
> high quality with Honeycrisp.  Some years they color well and taste great,
> but in many years the quality is only fair (at least compared to the best
> quality Honeycrisp I have eaten), and color can be unimpressive (to put it
> kindly!).  Over-cropping HC is definitely one way to kill eating quality,
> but I think that harvesting prematurely is a close second.  In some years,
> Honeycrisp show quite a bit of preharvest drop in our region, perhaps
> because of  water stress created by high temperatures between late July and
> August.  In any case, many folks have difficulty delaying harvest to
> achieve optimum quality when apples worth a dollar each are dropping in
> large quantities.  Folks in northeastern NY (Champlain Valley) can grow
> excellent HC and they initially reported that they did not have drop
> problems. However, significant drop also occurred in that region after an
> exceptional late-July heat wave several years ago. I'm not certain if
> anyone has really done the definitive study on how daytime temps, nighttime
> temps, water stress, rootstocks, crop load, spray programs (including
> foliar nutrients), and maturity at harvest  interact to create either
> exceptionally good or exceptionally bad Honeycrisp.  We all have some
> general concepts from observations, but it would be nice to know the
> acceptable ranges of the multiple variables that impact fruit quality
> (i.e., good-tasting) fruit.
>
>  Honeycrisp was my favorite apples for a number of years, but eventually
> I tired of buying "crunch" at the expense of the more complex flavors that
> exist in other cultivars. At this point, I'd compare Honeycrisp to a modest
> quality champagne (some folks always go for the bubbles) whereas better
> cultivars have the more complex flavor profiles one would expect in an
> expensive Cabernet.  Currently, my personal favorites are freshly harvested
> SnapDragon, SweeTango, and (perhaps a surprise here) Pixie Crunch.  All
> three of these cultivars have both crunch and complex flavors, especially
> at harvest when the aroma volatiles that provide much of the flavor
> complexity are at their best. For a variety of reasons,  I doubt that any
> of these cultivars will ever rise to the level of Honeycrisp in consumer
> consciousness.  First, HC was the first cultivar to stake out totally new
> territory in the apple market because of its unique texture, and being
> first has advantages. (Many folks still refer to paper tissues as
> "Kleenex".)  Second, good HC hold up well in storage and eating quality of
> HC can be excellent after 6 months of storage whereas my three favorites
> noted above all tend to lose some of their flavor volatiles during storage.
> SnapDragon and SweeTango are still good apples out of storage, just not
> quite as good as they are at harvest.  The managed cultivar status of
> SweeTango and SnapDragon almost ensure that they will never gain the
> world-wide visibility that HC has, although those who can find them in
> stores will hopefully get a more consistent quality apple than has been the
> case with HC.   Finally, most consumers right now seem to want "sweet,
> juicy, crunch" and are less selective when it comes to the nuances of good
> apple flavors.  Thus, I would guess that those of us who have experienced
> top-quality fruit and can differentiate between "exceptional" and "good"
> fruit will always be a minority in the market place.
>
>  Now, if someone can come up with an easy-to-grow cultivar that has both
> the HC crunch factor AND complex aroma volatiles that persist through 6 to
> 10 months of CA storage, that will be the apple that will ultimately
> displace HC in the marketplace.
>
>   
>
> Dave Rosenberger, Professor of Plant Pathology
>  Cornell's Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
> Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
> http://pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/people/dave-rosenberger
> 
>
>
>  On Jan 30, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Fleming, William 
> wrote:
>
>   Back when I grew apples in North Central Washington they always said
> you couldn't grow good apples down south in the Columbia Basin so hardly
> anyone did. Then

Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Brian Heatherington]

  
  
Most pertinent is Terrence Robinson's discussion in Jan 15/2014 Good
Fruit Grower on longevity of HC prices. 

The U.S. apple industry would benefit greatly if we could recapture
what is now a predominately imported juice market (why not: "made in
USA, arsenic-free!" at a premium) and send a greater number of
lesser apples, HC or others, to juice, processing, and cider. Hard
cider production is booming market. Profits on juicing apples are
admittedly low, but cardboard apples coming out of CA storage and
poor-flavored apples sold at high prices do nothing to increase
apple consumption by U.S. consumers, nor does it help to maintain
higher prices. It keeps small guys like me in business though.

Minus 4F here this morning, but still not the best climate for
HoneyCrisp.


On 1/29/2014 5:59 PM, Steven Bibula
  wrote:


  
  
  
  
In
Hannaford (a major regional supermarket) today, all apples
were 99 cents per pound, except some smallish,
mediocre-looking honeycrisp at $2.49 per pound.  How long
can an apple coast in the premium price range on little more
than the name?
 
Steven
Bibula
Plowshares
Community Farm
236 Sebago
Lake Road
Gorham ME
04038
207.239.0442
www.plowsharesmaine.com
  

  
 
  

  
  
  
  
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-- 
Brian Heatherington
Beech Creek Orchards
2011 Georgia Highway 120
Tallapoosa, GA  30176
  

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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[David A. Rosenberger]

We first planted Honeycrisp trees at our research lab in 1995, and we’ve added 
more HC in various plantings over the years.  From my perspective, we are a bit 
too far south (90 miles north of Manhattan) to get consistently high quality 
with Honeycrisp.  Some years they color well and taste great, but in many years 
the quality is only fair (at least compared to the best quality Honeycrisp I 
have eaten), and color can be unimpressive (to put it kindly!).  Over-cropping 
HC is definitely one way to kill eating quality, but I think that harvesting 
prematurely is a close second.  In some years, Honeycrisp show quite a bit of 
preharvest drop in our region, perhaps because of  water stress created by high 
temperatures between late July and August.  In any case, many folks have 
difficulty delaying harvest to achieve optimum quality when apples worth a 
dollar each are dropping in large quantities.  Folks in northeastern NY 
(Champlain Valley) can grow excellent HC and they initially reported that they 
did not have drop problems. However, significant drop also occurred in that 
region after an exceptional late-July heat wave several years ago. I’m not 
certain if anyone has really done the definitive study on how daytime temps, 
nighttime temps, water stress, rootstocks, crop load, spray programs (including 
foliar nutrients), and maturity at harvest  interact to create either 
exceptionally good or exceptionally bad Honeycrisp.  We all have some general 
concepts from observations, but it would be nice to know the acceptable ranges 
of the multiple variables that impact fruit quality (i.e., good-tasting) fruit.

Honeycrisp was my favorite apples for a number of years, but eventually I tired 
of buying “crunch” at the expense of the more complex flavors that exist in 
other cultivars. At this point, I’d compare Honeycrisp to a modest quality 
champagne (some folks always go for the bubbles) whereas better cultivars have 
the more complex flavor profiles one would expect in an expensive Cabernet.  
Currently, my personal favorites are freshly harvested SnapDragon, SweeTango, 
and (perhaps a surprise here) Pixie Crunch.  All three of these cultivars have 
both crunch and complex flavors, especially at harvest when the aroma volatiles 
that provide much of the flavor complexity are at their best. For a variety of 
reasons,  I doubt that any of these cultivars will ever rise to the level of 
Honeycrisp in consumer consciousness.  First, HC was the first cultivar to 
stake out totally new territory in the apple market because of its unique 
texture, and being first has advantages. (Many folks still refer to paper 
tissues as “Kleenex”.)  Second, good HC hold up well in storage and eating 
quality of HC can be excellent after 6 months of storage whereas my three 
favorites noted above all tend to lose some of their flavor volatiles during 
storage. SnapDragon and SweeTango are still good apples out of storage, just 
not quite as good as they are at harvest.  The managed cultivar status of 
SweeTango and SnapDragon almost ensure that they will never gain the world-wide 
visibility that HC has, although those who can find them in stores will 
hopefully get a more consistent quality apple than has been the case with HC.   
Finally, most consumers right now seem to want “sweet, juicy, crunch” and are 
less selective when it comes to the nuances of good apple flavors.  Thus, I 
would guess that those of us who have experienced top-quality fruit and can 
differentiate between “exceptional” and “good” fruit will always be a minority 
in the market place.

Now, if someone can come up with an easy-to-grow cultivar that has both the HC 
crunch factor AND complex aroma volatiles that persist through 6 to 10 months 
of CA storage, that will be the apple that will ultimately displace HC in the 
marketplace.


Dave Rosenberger, Professor of Plant Pathology
Cornell's Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
   Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
http://pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/people/dave-rosenberger


On Jan 30, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Fleming, William 
mailto:w...@exchange.montana.edu>> wrote:

Back when I grew apples in North Central Washington they always said you 
couldn’t grow good apples down south in the Columbia Basin so hardly anyone 
did. Then someone came up with idea of overhead cooling during the hottest 
days, the Gala and Honeycrisp planting boom started. Huge plantings in the 
Basin and their efficiency of scale flooded the market putting many growers in 
the traditional apple growing areas of Washington out of business.

Cooling addressed the problem caused by 100° plus days but did little for cool 
nighttime temperatures which I feel are essential for growing a good tasting 
apple. Apples from the Basin of all types can look b

Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Fleming, William]

Back when I grew apples in North Central Washington they always said you 
couldn't grow good apples down south in the Columbia Basin so hardly anyone 
did. Then someone came up with idea of overhead cooling during the hottest 
days, the Gala and Honeycrisp planting boom started. Huge plantings in the 
Basin and their efficiency of scale flooded the market putting many growers in 
the traditional apple growing areas of Washington out of business.

Cooling addressed the problem caused by 100° plus days but did little for cool 
nighttime temperatures which I feel are essential for growing a good tasting 
apple. Apples from the Basin of all types can look beautiful but taste foul, 
sort of ruins the market for growers nationwide. Fortunately the current trend 
is removing apples and planting wine grapes. Also because of new food safety 
legislation surface canal and irrigation ditch water isn't allowed to get on 
the fruit, overhead cooling water must be treated or come from a well. I 
suspect that even more apples will have to come out due to this. Probably good 
for all of us to get inferior fruit off the market.

Here where I now live in western Montana at 3000 feet we can grow excellent 
Honeycrisp, it's almost like they were bred for the area. Night time 
temperatures are almost always in the 50°s no matter how hot the day.



Bill Fleming
Montana State University
Western Ag Research Center
580 Quast Lane
Corvallis, MT 59828

From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
[mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of George Brinson
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 6:19 AM
To: Apple-crop discussion list
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

Same story here on the east coast of Canada  maybe it is the climate in 
which it  is grown. HoneyCrisp tastes horrible!!

George Brinson

From: David Doud
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:35 PM
To: Apple-crop discussion list
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

" how did anyone find a Honeycrisp that doesn't taste good?"

Unfortunately, it's not that hard - We were visiting our son in San Diego in 
October 2012 (no fruit here, might as well take a trip) and visited Whole 
Foods, actually caught an upper level produce employee and chatted - he really 
wanted to turn me onto HoneyCrisp, there was a big display of 4" ones - insipid 
- and not that good of texture either - On to Trader Joe's, big display of 
nasty green 2.25-2.75" HoneyCrisp, obviously off overcropped trees - wish I 
would have taken pictures, but I was on vacation...

The ones in the local stores recently have been respectable @ $2.49 to 
$2.99/pound

It's hard to grow good ones - twice the price but half the pack-out - a real 
temptation to lower standards -

HoneyCrisp has generated apple excitement like none other in the last 30 years 
and has reset the bar - it is the new standard by which other varieties are 
measured and the traditional varieties don't measure up - Jonagored may compete 
in its week, but there's no comparison a couple weeks later -

David



On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Shoemaker, William H wrote:


Now the question is, how did anyone find a Honeycrisp that doesn't taste good? 
Is it the variety? Is it how its grown? Is it postharvest handling? Is it all 
the above? In our markets around Chicago it is really difficult to find high 
quality apples of any variety from Washington. They look beautiful, but lack 
flavor. I think Washington growers produce great apples. They don't show up 
here. I've had excellent Honeycrisp from local orchards in northern Illinois. 
In southern IL, they aren't as good. We get Fuji from MI in our local Aldi that 
are cheap and outstanding to eat. I think local Red Delicious are just 
delicious. But then, everyone knows, Red Delicious is a terrible apple. Why do 
we have so much acreage of this apple?!!


Bill
William H. Shoemaker
Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist
University of Illinois
wshoe...@illinois.edu


The problem is, poorly grown HC are just not good tasting apples. They need a 
cold winter, heavy thinning to avoid over cropping, calcium sprays every 4-6 
days and careful handling. ///

On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Steven Bibula 
mailto:sbib...@maine.rr.com>> wrote:
In Hannaford (a major regional supermarket) today, all apples were 99 cents per 
pound, except some smallish, mediocre-looking honeycrisp at $2.49 per pound.  
How long can an apple coast in the premium price range on little more than the 
name?

Steven Bibula
Plowshares Community Farm
236 Sebago Lake Road
Gorham ME 04038
207.239.0442
www.plowsharesmaine.com


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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[George Brinson]

Same story here on the east coast of Canada  maybe it is the climate in 
which it  is grown. HoneyCrisp tastes horrible!!

George Brinson

From: David Doud 
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:35 PM
To: Apple-crop discussion list 
Subject: Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

" how did anyone find a Honeycrisp that doesn't taste good?"


Unfortunately, it's not that hard - We were visiting our son in San Diego in 
October 2012 (no fruit here, might as well take a trip) and visited Whole 
Foods, actually caught an upper level produce employee and chatted - he really 
wanted to turn me onto HoneyCrisp, there was a big display of 4" ones - insipid 
- and not that good of texture either - On to Trader Joe's, big display of 
nasty green 2.25-2.75" HoneyCrisp, obviously off overcropped trees - wish I 
would have taken pictures, but I was on vacation...


The ones in the local stores recently have been respectable @ $2.49 to 
$2.99/pound


It's hard to grow good ones - twice the price but half the pack-out - a real 
temptation to lower standards - 


HoneyCrisp has generated apple excitement like none other in the last 30 years 
and has reset the bar - it is the new standard by which other varieties are 
measured and the traditional varieties don't measure up - Jonagored may compete 
in its week, but there's no comparison a couple weeks later - 


David






On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Shoemaker, William H wrote:


  Now the question is, how did anyone find a Honeycrisp that doesn't taste 
good? Is it the variety? Is it how its grown? Is it postharvest handling? Is it 
all the above? In our markets around Chicago it is really difficult to find 
high quality apples of any variety from Washington. They look beautiful, but 
lack flavor. I think Washington growers produce great apples. They don't show 
up here. I've had excellent Honeycrisp from local orchards in northern 
Illinois. In southern IL, they aren't as good. We get Fuji from MI in our local 
Aldi that are cheap and outstanding to eat. I think local Red Delicious are 
just delicious. But then, everyone knows, Red Delicious is a terrible apple. 
Why do we have so much acreage of this apple?!!


  Bill
  William H. Shoemaker
  Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist
  University of Illinois
  wshoe...@illinois.edu

--


  The problem is, poorly grown HC are just not good tasting apples. They need a 
cold winter, heavy thinning to avoid over cropping, calcium sprays every 4-6 
days and careful handling. ///



  On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Steven Bibula  wrote:

In Hannaford (a major regional supermarket) today, all apples were 99 cents 
per pound, except some smallish, mediocre-looking honeycrisp at $2.49 per 
pound.  How long can an apple coast in the premium price range on little more 
than the name?

Steven Bibula
Plowshares Community Farm
236 Sebago Lake Road
Gorham ME 04038
207.239.0442
www.plowsharesmaine.com


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