Re: Apple-Crop: Pesticide Rates and Tree Row Volume
Hello All, I have found the discussion that has arisen from my initial questions fascinating and the answers nowhere near as clear-cut as I had imagined. My original post included a plea to the pesticide manufacturers, EPA and what is left of our unfortunately underfunded extension experts to come up with a product labeling requirement that takes into consideration the complexities of applying pesticides to fruit trees. I would assume that CLARITY would be of utmost interest to the EPA, whether or not they actually care if the product works. ( Maybe important enough that they would back it up with dollars for research?) I don't buy the Don't confuse the poor farmer by making them do algebra. argument. I also have trouble accepting the argument that a small tree equals a big tree. There is a limit to how dense the fruit and foliage can be before fruit quality suffers from light deprivation. Small trees put tree and fruit closer to the sprayer and have a smaller row volume. Our big old trees might not have grown as good quality fruit in the center of the tree, but there was still a need to protect it from insects and disease and thus a need to fill that volume of space with a cloud of spray mist that deposited an effective dose of pesticide. The variation on the TRV calculation that Jason Deveau discusses in his post might be based on better assumptions than our current approach, but it still contains the caveat that reducing the rate is at the grower's risk. We need a methodology that everyone can agree on so that if you do it right, the manufacturer will stand behind the product instead of hiding behind the lawyerly language written in tiny print on the label. I understand, as Dave Rosenberger points out, that from the manufacturer's perspective they might be recommending the least amount of product possible to leave more room in there risk cup for other crops, but if the rate is so close to the line so there is no margin for error, this needs to be communicated more effectively. Perhaps if the EPA was comparing how much Avaunt it really took to actually control Apple Maggot versus the actual rate of an O.P. that was being sprayed to accomplish complete control of the same pest ( I was one of those 1/4 - 1/8th rate growers that Kathleen Leahy referred to) they wouldn't feel quite the need to give the O.P.'s the bum's rush! As growers we have no way to know what assumptions have gone into the labeling of the pesticides we use. For example, if all the testing is already done on smaller trees and there really is no room to cut the rate further, this needs to somehow be made clear on the product label. I think Dave Kollas' frustration (one that I share) with labels that don't include a rate/100 gallons is based on a recognition that we need to have a common reference point.( not to mention a method for a small grower with a few trees and a backpack sprayer to figure out a dilute rate for his hand sprayer.) If the old assumptions are no longer valid, fine... lets develop some new ones, but it seems plain silly to plod forward with the kind of tower of babble labeling that we have now. Regards, Jonathan Bishop ??? B.W. Bishop Sons, Inc. Bishop's Orchards 1355 Boston Post RoadGrowers of Fine Fruit Guilford, CT 06437 Since 1871 Vistit us on the web at: www.bishopsorchards.com ?? -- The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard http://www.virtualorchard.net and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon Clements webmas...@virtualorchard.net. Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent official opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for the content.
Apple-Crop: Positions available
Hello All, I hope I am not violating list serve etiquette, but Bishop's Orchards ( www.bishopsorchards.com ) in Guilford, Connecticut has positions open for a Farm Production Manager and a Production Foreman. If you, or someone you know, are interested please contact me off-list at jonathan.bis...@bishopsorchards.com for more information. Regards, Jonathan Bishop -- Jonathan Bishop Bishop's Orchards B.W. Bishop Sons, Inc. Growers of Fine Fruit 1355 Boston Post Road since 1871 Guilford, CT 06437 Phone: (203)453-2338 FAX: (203)458-7125 E-mail: jonathan.bis...@bishopsorchards.com Come visit us on the Web at www.bishopsorchards.com -- The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard http://www.virtualorchard.net and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon Clements webmas...@virtualorchard.net. Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent official opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for the content.
Re: Apple-Crop: Referral needed - orchards and sheep
You laugh, but following the E. Coli incidents with apple juice in the U.S. in the late 1990's, the FDA began to study the problem, visiting orchards and cider/ juice operations. It is said that on one fact finding expedition to an orchard, government officials were Horrified... Horrified to find that apples were in fact grown OUTSIDE!!! Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and we are not required to fence and net our orchards. Fortunately the industry reacted quickly adopting HACCP plans and pasteurization which pretty well mitigate any risk from contamination from wildlife or other sources. Unfortunately we are all still at risk that some small operator somewhere who is exempt from these regulations will have an incident. The industry doesn't need another E. Coli scare. Jonathan B. Bishop Jonathan Bishop Bishop's Orchards B.W. Bishop Sons, Inc. Growers of Fine Fruit since 1871 1355 Boston Post Road Phone: (203)453-2338 Guilford, CT 06437FAX: (203)458-7125 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Come visit us on the Web at www.bishopsorchards.com - Original Message - From: Daryl Hunter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 2:11 PM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Referral needed - orchards and sheep Sheep and other livestock? What about wildlife? It isn't unusual to find deer droppings in orchards in my part of the country, and wild birds standing on apples in the trees as they peck at them (and leaving their droppings as well), and squirrels, and rabbits, and mice ...lots of wildlife. So, the risk of contamination is always there to some extent. I would assume that one solution to reducing risk is to only harvest apples in the trees, not drops, and to wash the fruit properly before selling. How far do we go with this concern . do we have the pickers wear latex gloves? I saw a comedy show recently where the chef sprayed the salad greens with hand sanitizing lotion. Maybe that is the answer. Daryl Hunter Keswick Ridge New Brunswick Canada - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Referral needed - orchards and sheep If you run livestock in your orchard and your orchard is a U-Pick orchard, just don't let your liability insurance company know you have livestock among your trees. Ours requires the orchard be fenced in to keep livestock out! Dennis Norton Royal Oak Farm Orchard http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com http://www.theorchardkeeper.blogspot.com http://www.revivalhymn.com - Original Message - From: Smith, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 2:34 PM Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Referral needed - orchards and sheep I'm sorry, I stand corrected. It isn't against the law to run livestock in an orchard. I guess you can choose to run livestock in your orchard, just not while fruit is present? Read the letter from Ronald Gaskill carefully. Are you certain that frozen domestic livestock waste, thawing in the spring will never be an actual or perceived issue re: E. coli? What happened to spinach sales after that incidence? I stand by my opinion (opinion!) that production of livestock inside the orchard environment would not be considered a good practice by most consumers. Timothy J. Smith WSU Extension, Chelan, Douglas Okanogan Counties -Original Message- From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arthur Harvey Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:44 AM To: Apple-Crop Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Referral needed - orchards and sheep This is not correct. The example given of animals in orchards during the fall, does not violate organic rules. Many, if not most, organic farmers in Maine apply manure in the fall in order to avoid the cumbersome composting rules. I know, because I inspect those farms for a certifier. --- Smith, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello apple-croppers, There is specific language in the organic rules, and many import/export agreements forbidding the use of uncomposted animal poo as a fertilizer. I don't believe the direct deposit of the animal byproducts would be considered as o.k. You may not wish to join in with the system that sets these conditions, but if you direct market, it would be best if you didn't let your customers see the sheep in the orchard. It just doesn't look very clean, if you catch my drift. Unless you plan to utilize diapers on the various animals that may graze under/in your trees, it seems that the market would at least be nervous about possible E. coli
