Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
My 1.2 pence: I would prefer that rc.conf is kept as one file, or at least do it well. W dniu wtorek, 24 lipca 2012 użytkownik Gaetan Bisson napisał: [2012-07-24 16:07:50 +0200] Heiko Baums: Yes, I don't like those Windoze like ini files of systemd, too. Everything is and should stay a file, and every tool should do only one task but this should be done well. How about having multiple files, each doing one thing and doing it well? Wait, isn't that exactly what systemd does? This is, btw., also the KISS philosophy. Any more platitudes coming? My /dev/null is feeling a bit empty. -- Gaetan -- --- *VOT Productions* *iRobosoft*: Owner irobosoft.weebly.com
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:44 PM, David Benfell
benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote:
Hi,
Because it's summer, and I'd really rather not try to figure all this
out during the school year, I'm trying to figure out systemd *now*,
rather than waiting until rc.conf goes away.
I actually had trouble with rc.conf when I first installed Arch on my
Linode. Some daemons mysteriously wouldn't start and I couldn't figure
out how to get the networking to come up properly. (And, of course, I
was in a hurry.) So I wound up hacking rc.local to bring up both the
network and the daemons. (Yes, I know: ew!)
This is the shell snippet I'm using to bring up my network now:
rc.d start network #successfully gets some address and a route
for i in 74.207.225.79/32 74.207.227.150/32 173.230.137.73/32
173.230.137.76/32
do
ip addr add ${i} dev eth0
done
ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:64e2/64 dev eth0
for j in $(seq 0 1)
do
for i in $(seq 0 9) a b c d e f
do
ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::02:70${j}${i}/64 dev eth0
done
done
Basically, with the IPv4 address, my intent is to make sure I've got
all four of those addresses up. But I wasn't getting a route unless I
used the network start script.
In my copy of the Arch wiki, Im not seeing how to do something
similar under systemd. How, ideally, should I be doing this?
Thanks!
hi David,
i've been prototyping the idea of a complete network management
solution driven purely by unit files (or a generator) ... i don't have
a general solution, but i use the following to handle a common case --
perform DHCP on an interface when it is available, and tear it down
when it's not (disregard the `u.` [user] prefixes, i use them to
guarantee no-conflicts with upstream units):
# cat
/etc/systemd/system/sys-subsystem-net-devices-wan0.device.wants/u.net.dhcp@wan0.service
=
# network interfaces bindings
[Unit]
Description=[u] DHCP Interface [%I]
StopWhenUnneeded=true
Wants=network.target
Before=network.target
BindTo=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device
After=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device
After=basic.target
[Service]
Type=simple
TimeoutSec=0
Restart=always
RestartSec=30
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/dhcpcd -C resolv.conf --nobackground --timeout 30 %I
[Install]
Alias=sys-subsystem-net-devices-wan0.device.wants/u.net.dhcp@wan0.service
=
... notice the use of `BindTo` and how it's triggered by the presence
of the actual device. this is a `simple` service because it has an
actual process associated with it ... i also use a similar `oneshot`
unit for static devices that is closer to what you need:
# cat
/etc/systemd/system/sys-subsystem-net-devices-lan0.device.wants/u.net.static@lan0.service
=
# network interfaces bindings
[Unit]
Description=[u] Static Interface [%I]
StopWhenUnneeded=true
Wants=network.target
Before=network.target
BindTo=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device
After=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device
After=basic.target
[Service]
Type=oneshot
TimeoutSec=0
Restart=always
RestartSec=30
RemainAfterExit=yes
ExecStart=-/usr/sbin/ip addr add 10.50.250.1/24 dev %I
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/ip link set %I up
[Install]
Alias=sys-subsystem-net-devices-lan0.device.wants/u.net.static@lan0.service
=
... take particular notice of multiple `ExecStart` directives --
`oneshot` type units allow for several commands to be executed
sequentially, and the unit fails if any command fails (use
`ExecStart=-[...]` to ignore the return code of one command, note the
dash). you could use this last unit as a base, then add all of your
commands to it, one after the other. note how i ignore the result of
the `ip addr add` because the address might already exists (couldn't
find a cleaner way to handle this).
that said, i'm not sure systemd is really intended to handle these
things directly, but in simple cases it seems to work pretty good --
i've used the DHCP unit file on 3 physical servers and 5 virtual
machines for about 18 months now, without issue.
HTH,
--
C Anthony
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 6:06 PM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I wonder if ArmArch will run systemd. ArchLinux ARM ships systemd, just like we do. On my ARM machine (a Raspberry Pi running ArchLinux ARM) I use it, and as I mentioned it works great. indeed, i also run it on my Sheevaplug and more recently Pandaboard -- my new toy :-) to reiterate the above ... it works fantastic. the Pandaboard runs 9 custom unit files (1/2 of which are just mods to the shipped unit files): u.dhcpd4.service u.dnsmasq.service u.fwknopd.service u.hostapd.service iptables.service u.net.dhcp@.service u.net.static@.service u.openvpn.service (writing now :-) u.services.target ... and combined with 2 custom mkinitcpio hooks (to autogenerate uImage/uInitrd files) every single aspect of the system is fully managed. and ALL units, together, sans comments and empty lines, total a whopping 97 lines ... by comparison, the iptables and dnsmasq rc.d scripts over 60 lines EACH. on this system, all systemd processes are using less memory than ntpd, sshd, rsyslog, bash, dhcpd ... in fact it's among the lightest of them all. it's barely using more than TOP! bang. systemd++ -- C Anthony
[arch-general] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
The 24/07/12, Kevin Chadwick wrote: Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or machine. Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that when a service is failing, everybody first think it's because of the init process and try to fix the bug in the /sbin/init C sources. It's funny how you think init which was designed to be as simple as possible is likely to have as many bugs as systemd. It's funny how you think init scripts ― without consistant/sensible design over them, not deployed as widely as systemd and touched by so many people ― are likely to have as many bugs as systemd. -- Nicolas Sebrecht
[arch-general] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
The 25/07/12, Heiko Baums wrote: In Linux I have/had some simple text files with which I can/could configure the whole system, while I had a terrible, cryptic registry on Windoze. I can find anything in systemd which could make think of the registry on Windows. In Linux I just can/could add a daemon to rc.conf to have it run. From what I read so far about systemd in all those discussions, in systemd I have to run a special command to have a daemon started at boot time (which I additionally have to remember), I have to write such an ini file instead of just writing or editing a simple and small config file or shell script You are mixing up two things: - adding/removing services on boot; - configuring the services. The first - adding/removing services - changes with systemd. Yes, it is done using a dedicated command (which comes naturally with autocompletion, here with zsh at least). This is for services provided by the distribution. If a service is not provided: - with SysVinit you have to write the whole script usually relying on whatever library the distribution provides (which tend to be error-prone); - with systemd, you just write a configuration file. For the second, whether you use systemd or SysVinit, configuring a service is typically done by editing the configuration file dedicated to this service. In systemd, the file is declared like this EnvironmentFile=/etc/conf.d/nfs which is by itself much easier to hack (rather than reading in a shell script to find where and how such a file is used). then systemd creates some symlinks of files into another directory whose name is also totally cryptic, at least way to long. This is a total mess, if this is really true, and it's absolutely a step towards a second Windoze. This is systemd internals. It's not expected from the user to play with symlinks. But if there's such a long discussion and if there are so many complains about a software or a change, then you can assume that there's something going pretty wrong. No, I won't assume something that the software is going wrong. I assume the change raise fear, whether it is well-founded or not. I never ever have read such long discussions and so many complains about a software like about the software of Lennart Poettering (PulseAudio and systemd). OTOH for the systemd case, we are changing of paradigm for the boot process. I'm not aware of such a change in the boot process for years. All recent event-based init systems have raise fear. -- Nicolas Sebrecht
Re: [arch-general] pacman and corrupt packages
2012/7/25 Ike Devolder ike.devol...@gmail.com: That is an option I have not yet tried but I just want to preserve the reproduction and debug the problem if there is any. Maybe this will help: cd /var/lib/pacman/pkg for pkg in *; do bsdtar -tf $pkg /dev/null || echo $pkg is broken; done This is strange, for me, pacman always showed which package is broken (and asked to delete it). Can you disable any ftp mirrors from your mirrorlist ([1])? Could you post your pacman.conf? [1] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1050214#p1050214 -- Krzysztof Warzecha
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 07:51 +0200, okra...@arcor.de wrote: Bad programming is the most favorite answer, and totally nonsense. The registry just gets bigger and bigger and is totally cryptic. And the registry is one of the most frequent reasons for system crashes and instabilities. And it's the most frequent reason why Windoze regularly (usually every 3 months) needs to be reinstalled. Heiko Hello Heiko, this is simply not true. First of all, starting with Windows XP the stability of Windows (yes, Windows, not Windoze) got much better and there are very few crashes which are mostly related to driver issues, IMO. Secondly, Windows doesn't need to be reinstalled every 3 months. Come on, most companies use Windows on their desktops and they don't need to reinstall them every 3 months. And their employees actually can work with their computers. And i don't say this because i like Windows but because i'm realistic and not unfair. I don't live in a world where one system is perfect and the others are all completely crap. If you think that Windows is completely bad then you're not professional. BTW: pacman.conf is written in an ini-style as well. Greetings, Oliver Is there the need to talk about Windows? XP is stable, just most XP users are unexperienced, so they break their XPs, but for such computer users a Linux won't work, since it needs too much tweaking to get a Linux run, hence a borked XP anyway is better than a Linux that completely doesn't work. However, XP will be dropped soon. Or is it already dropped by Microsoft? Btw. 98SE already is stable. Newer Windows might be unstable, I dunno. For me it's important that Microsoft and Apple are unethical companies. Unfortunately XP doesn't run that good on VBox and I'm not willing to install it directly to my computer again. But we should keep in mind, that some software only is available for Microsoft and Apple. And how many users are willing to stand the roughness and all the rules of Linux communities? There are also such forums for Windows, but you also will find many forums where old women are allowed to ask the same stupid questions again and again and even top posting and HTML for emails are allowed. Registry indeed is a PITA, however, on Linux we've got pulseaudio, KDE4 GNOME3. Who cares? Comparing OS is useless. Splitting /etc/rc.conf has less to do with something Windows-like.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On 25-07-2012 09:44, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote: then systemd creates some symlinks of files into another directory whose name is also totally cryptic, at least way to long. This is a total mess, if this is really true, and it's absolutely a step towards a second Windoze. This is systemd internals. It's not expected from the user to play with symlinks. But if for some reason something is causing a kernel panic during boot I sure want to have the possibility of easily disabling it and not rely on some tool that may or may not work at the time. On another note, the same goes for text based configuration files, I prefer simple text based files since they can be easily understood, viewed and edited with simple tools available in every live media. As for splitting rc.conf I have mixed feelings about it, it used to be _the_ place to go for changing most system settings, but then again some system settings always had a separate configuration file. If the split will bring more flexibility and helps to avoid having to hack things with user written scripts then maybe it's for the better. -- Mauro Santos
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:22:28 +0200 schrieb Nelson Marambio nelsonmaram...@gmx.de: that is / was right for Win 98 or Win ME. Having an exception error which was caused by damaged registry files always meant a reset to state short after the OS-installation, so all the drivers and programs had to be re-installed. But my XP-Installation ran more than five years stable though being stressed by many test-installations of applications. Does not mean that XP or Win 7 is going to make an admin feel happy - but yes, there was an improvement, at least for the users. But that was not such an improvement, maybe Windoze XP ran slightly longer than 3 months. But it's still not what I call stable. And it still is a PITA, particularly when it comes to administration. And it still gets unstable because of the (more and more growing) registry. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:44:34 +0200 schrieb Nicolas Sebrecht nsebre...@piing.fr: I can find anything in systemd which could make think of the registry on Windows. I didn't say that. You are mixing up two things: - adding/removing services on boot; - configuring the services. The first - adding/removing services - changes with systemd. Yes, it is done using a dedicated command (which comes naturally with autocompletion, here with zsh at least). This is for services provided by the distribution. And this is against UNIX philosophy and makes it like something proprietary, at least it's anything else than comfortable. Why not just using a simple text file where I can list every service that I want to have started? systemd could easily read this file and do whatever it thinks to have been done internally. Btw., it's called daemon in Linux and UNIX. It's called service in Windoze. So one more step towards a second Windoze. The naming scheme in systemd is also not really the best. If people want a second Windoze they should stay with Windoze or help to improve ReactOS. If a service is not provided: - with SysVinit you have to write the whole script usually relying on whatever library the distribution provides (which tend to be error-prone); - with systemd, you just write a configuration file. Writing such a whole script is usually very easy and pretty little error-prone. A configuration file can also be pretty inconvenient. I haven't yet tested systemd, but from what I saw so far it doesn't look too intuitive or easy. But maybe I'm wrong in this case. Why do I have to tell systemd in all of those init scripts what service has to run before or after this service? In DAEMONS in rc.conf I just have a list of daemons I want to have started in one single line. And the order in which they have to be started is the order in which I list those daemons. Just plain and simple, and can easily be parsed. For the second, whether you use systemd or SysVinit, configuring a service is typically done by editing the configuration file dedicated to this service. In systemd, the file is declared like this EnvironmentFile=/etc/conf.d/nfs which is by itself much easier to hack (rather than reading in a shell script to find where and how such a file is used). You really don't need to read in a shell script to find where and how a config file is used. With SysVinit you have a rc script in /etc/rc.d and the corresponding config file in /etc/conf.d, both have the same name and the config files are usually very well documented, either by comments or by a man page. And what's hard in reading a very short init script with only a few lines? Btw., most lines are always the same (function declarations, case structures, etc.). The only important part is usually only one line. This is systemd internals. It's not expected from the user to play with symlinks. Just like in proprietary software. Once again: Why does it need such symlinks in some cryptic directories? The point is, I want to have full control over my system and not to rely on some software's internals. And I don't want to read source codes to know what an init system is doing. And full control includes knowing what file is saved where and doing what. No, I won't assume something that the software is going wrong. I assume the change raise fear, whether it is well-founded or not. Wrong, if there's such a long discussion, there is something going pretty wrong. If this software would be that well-founded, nobody had a problem with it, nobody would fear anything, and there would only be a very short discussion. Someone asks or mentions his concerns, somebody else clarifies it, and everything is good. This is not the case with Poetterix. And like I said before, I never - never ever - saw such a long discussion and so many concerns about a software like I saw for PulseAudio and systemd. So something must go pretty wrong in this case. This software can't be so well-founded. The people who are discussing about it, who have concerns against it and/or don't like systemd are not all stupid. OTOH for the systemd case, we are changing of paradigm for the boot process. I'm not aware of such a change in the boot process for years. All recent event-based init systems have raise fear. Which init systems? I only know SysVinit. And why wasn't there a change for years? Actually there was never a change. Because this init system is so bad? I would rather say because it's so well tested and approved, and because it's simple and just works and does what it is supposed to do. Maybe there are things that can be improved. Maybe there is code which has to be written or executed more than once with SysVinit. Well, this could be changed and improved. If this justifies a complete new init system is questionable I think. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 07:51:15 +0200 (CEST) schrieb okra...@arcor.de: this is simply not true. Sorry, but this is simply true. I know Windoze XP and I had to use it long enough, far too long. First of all, starting with Windows XP the stability of Windows (yes, Windows, not Windoze) got much better and there are very few crashes which are mostly related to driver issues, IMO. Much better? Slightly better! And, yes, Windoze. Secondly, Windows doesn't need to be reinstalled every 3 months. Come on, most companies use Windows on their desktops and they don't need to reinstall them every 3 months. And their employees actually can work with their computers. I used Windoze long enough. And I had to reinstall it every 3 months, and I know a lot of people who also had to do it this often. Since Windoze XP it was maybe not every 3 months anymore, but still often enough. And i don't say this because i like Windows but because i'm realistic and not unfair. I don't live in a world where one system is perfect and the others are all completely crap. If you think that Windows is completely bad then you're not professional. I am realistic and professional, because I speak from experience, like I said before more than 25 years. Windoze is completely bad. Otherwise I wouldn't get fits of raving madness every time I have to work with this crap, which is fortunately not too often anymore. BTW: pacman.conf is written in an ini-style as well. Not really. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Jul 25, 2012 2:45 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote:
rc.d start network #successfully gets some address and a route
for i in 74.207.225.79/32 74.207.227.150/32 173.230.137.73/32
173.230.137.76/32
do
ip addr add ${i} dev eth0
done
ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:64e2/64 dev eth0
for j in $(seq 0 1)
do
for i in $(seq 0 9) a b c d e f
do
ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::02:70${j}${i}/64 dev eth0
done
done
Basically, with the IPv4 address, my intent is to make sure I've got
all four of those addresses up. But I wasn't getting a route unless I
used the network start script.
In my copy of the Arch wiki, Im not seeing how to do something
similar under systemd. How, ideally, should I be doing this?
Systemd does not come with a network daemon. Either you could use one of
the regular ones (I use network manager on all my machines), or you could
tell systemd to ruin your script.
Let's assume you saved that snippet in /usr/local/bin/davids-network.sh
Then create a service file in /etc/systemd/system/davids-network.service
[unit]
description= David's Network Setup
Wants= network.target
Before= network.target
[service]
Type = oneshot
ExecStart=/usr/local/bin/davids-network.sh
[instal]
WantedBy= multi-user.target
Hth,
Tom
PS
Please double check the syntax carefully, I'm on my phone.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 3:44 AM, Nicolas Sebrecht nsebre...@piing.fr wrote: The 25/07/12, Heiko Baums wrote: systemd I have to run a special command to have a daemon started at boot time (which I additionally have to remember), I have to write such an ini file instead of just writing or editing a simple and small config file or shell script You are mixing up two things: - adding/removing services on boot; - configuring the services. The first - adding/removing services - changes with systemd. Yes, it is done using a dedicated command (which comes naturally with autocompletion, here with zsh at least). This is for services provided by the distribution. If a service is not provided: - with SysVinit you have to write the whole script usually relying on whatever library the distribution provides (which tend to be error-prone); - with systemd, you just write a configuration file. For the second, whether you use systemd or SysVinit, configuring a service is typically done by editing the configuration file dedicated to this service. In systemd, the file is declared like this EnvironmentFile=/etc/conf.d/nfs which is by itself much easier to hack (rather than reading in a shell script to find where and how such a file is used). ... and to elaborate on this, writing a unit file is not the end of the world. in fact, it's so !@%$ing painless that i literally bang one out in ~2 minutes flat (not an exaggeration). 100% TANGIBLE, CONCRETE, NON-HYPOTHETICAL example ... i wrote this in a ~2 minute period sometime between the now and my last message h, 45 min ago: # cat /usr/lib/systemd/system/u.openvpn.service = [Unit] Description=[u] OpenVPN server After=network.target [Service] Type=simple TimeoutSec=0 Restart=always RestartSec=30 ExecStart=/usr/sbin/openvpn --config /etc/openvpn/u.openvpn.conf ExecStartPost=/usr/sbin/ip link set vpn0 up promisc on master lan0 ExecReload=/bin/kill -SIGUSR1 $MAINPID [Install] WantedBy=u.services.target = ... nd done. works bomb. linked to my custom target. automatic reloads. dynamic TAP device. automatic adding of TAP dev to existing bridge. works bomb? :-) but anthony! what did it REALLY take?, one likely inquires ... well i'm glad you asked! procedure: - copy one of my other daemon unit files - change ~3 lines - declare masterpiece ... there is no way to convince me or anyone else that process is somehow *more* complex than editing/managing the ~83-line combined `openvpn` and `openvpn-tapdev` rc.d scripts ... ehm ... hi. i have zilch against sysvinit, initscripts, or anything else for that matter -- to have a persuasion for-or-against a piece of software on anything but technical merits is rather silly IMO, even your own -- but to put it bluntly, systemd is, hands-down, superior, and a win in all ways over the long standing sysvinit ... just let it be so friends. -- C Anthony
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
2012/7/24 Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no: It is based on the desktop-entry-spec: http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/, which in turn is (as far as I know) based on Window's .ini format. This is true: http://0pointer.de/public/systemd-man/systemd.unit.html. It could be worse; those ini-style files are just plain text key-value store sometimes splited in groups. I understand concept of ini files carry some historical baggage, but come on, everything will be OK as long as those keys and groups (and possible values...) are well documented in manual. -- Krzysztof Warzecha
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:57:02 AM Tom Gundersen wrote:
On Jul 25, 2012 2:45 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote:
rc.d start network #successfully gets some address and a route
for i in 74.207.225.79/32 74.207.227.150/32 173.230.137.73/32
173.230.137.76/32
do
ip addr add ${i} dev eth0
done
ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:64e2/64 dev eth0
for j in $(seq 0 1)
do
for i in $(seq 0 9) a b c d e f
do
ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::02:70${j}${i}/64 dev eth0
done
done
Basically, with the IPv4 address, my intent is to make sure I've got
all four of those addresses up. But I wasn't getting a route unless I
used the network start script.
In my copy of the Arch wiki, Im not seeing how to do something
similar under systemd. How, ideally, should I be doing this?
Systemd does not come with a network daemon. Either you could use one of
the regular ones (I use network manager on all my machines), or you could
tell systemd to ruin your script.
^^^
This was worth a good laugh this morning
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 06:42 -0400, Baho Utot wrote: On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:57:02 AM Tom Gundersen wrote:or you could tell systemd to ruin your script. ^^^ This was worth a good laugh this morning Typing ungloved is better. Or using an alphabetically keyboard instead of qwerty.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:14:57AM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote: I used Windoze long enough. And I had to reinstall it every 3 months, and I know a lot of people who also had to do it this often. Since Windoze XP it was maybe not every 3 months anymore, but still often enough. I am realistic and professional, because I speak from experience, like I said before more than 25 years. Windoze is completely bad. Otherwise I wouldn't get fits of raving madness every time I have to work with this crap, which is fortunately not too often anymore. I don't want to talk about Windows any longer because it is OT. I just wanted to correct some clearly wrong statements of you. Maybe you should reconsider your Windows administration skills if you need to reinstall every 3 months. BTW: pacman.conf is written in an ini-style as well. Not really. Core syntax: [Sectionname] key=value Why is that not ini-style? Greetings, Oliver
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 13:05 +0200, Oliver Kraitschy wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:14:57AM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote: I am realistic and professional, because I speak from experience, like I said before more than 25 years. If the next employer you'll make an application should read this, you was an professional. I don't want to talk about Windows any longer because it is OT. That would be nice :)
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 13:18 +0200, Oliver Kraitschy wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:20:57AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: Is there the need to talk about Windows? XP is stable, just most XP users are unexperienced, so they break their XPs, but for such computer users a Linux won't work, since it needs too much tweaking to get a Linux run, hence a borked XP anyway is better than a Linux that completely doesn't work. However, XP will be dropped soon. Or is it already dropped by Microsoft? Btw. 98SE already is stable. Newer Windows might be unstable, I dunno. For me it's important that Microsoft and Apple are unethical companies. Unfortunately XP doesn't run that good on VBox and I'm not willing to install it directly to my computer again. But we should keep in mind, that some software only is available for Microsoft and Apple. And how many users are willing to stand the roughness and all the rules of Linux communities? There are also such forums for Windows, but you also will find many forums where old women are allowed to ask the same stupid questions again and again and even top posting and HTML for emails are allowed. Registry indeed is a PITA, however, on Linux we've got pulseaudio, KDE4 GNOME3. Who cares? Comparing OS is useless. Splitting /etc/rc.conf has less to do with something Windows-like. Hello Ralf, sorry, i just wanted to correct some statements which are simply not correct and just OS bashing. Greetings, Oliver I understand Heiko and I understand you. Comparing OS as examples, to what could happen, sometimes could be helpful. Correcting mistakes then also could be useful.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On 07/25/12 at 01:47am, C Anthony Risinger wrote: to reiterate the above ... it works fantastic. the Pandaboard runs 9 custom unit files (1/2 of which are just mods to the shipped unit files): u.dhcpd4.service u.dnsmasq.service u.fwknopd.service u.hostapd.service iptables.service u.net.dhcp@.service u.net.static@.service u.openvpn.service (writing now :-) u.services.target What does u.net.static@.service do? If something similar to ifplugd, I'm interested :) Manolo
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 06:42 -0400, Baho Utot wrote: On Wednesday, July 25, 2012 11:57:02 AM Tom Gundersen wrote:or you could tell systemd to ruin your script. ^^^ This was worth a good laugh this morning This just in: New complaints arise about Arch moving some configuration options to become more compatible with systemd as reports surface of systemd ruining scripts. =-Jameson
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:57:02AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: Then create a service file in /etc/systemd/system/davids-network.service [unit] description= David's Network Setup Wants= network.target Before= network.target [service] Type = oneshot ExecStart=/usr/local/bin/davids-network.sh [instal] WantedBy= multi-user.target Can't help it, I find this syntax ugly (CamelCase), illiterate (assigning values to prepositions and verbs), and confusing. In 'A.service', what does 'Before= B' mean ? Does A come before B or the inverse ? Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On 25/07/2012 5:54 AM, Heiko Baums wrote: [snip] Why do I have to tell systemd in all of those init scripts what service has to run before or after this service? In DAEMONS in rc.conf I just have a list of daemons I want to have started in one single line. And the order in which they have to be started is the order in which I list those daemons. Just plain and simple, and can easily be parsed. This DAEMONS array is nice, one of the things I like about Arch, but it is specific to Arch not SysV. If you run Gentoo, or others you won't have something like that, you'll have a program that arranges symlinks, not entirely unlike systemd. Why you would want to specify which services had to come before or after which other services is obvious when you consider that systemd boots services in parallel. There is no way in the current system, and no way without specifying, to boot several daemons at the same time and then boot other daemons afterwards that depend on them having completely launched. Similarly with devices being available. This is why people have to put in ugly hacks like sleep in daemons that require the network to be up. You really don't need to read in a shell script to find where and how a config file is used. With SysVinit you have a rc script in /etc/rc.d and the corresponding config file in /etc/conf.d, both have the same name and the config files are usually very well documented, either by comments or by a man page. And what's hard in reading a very short init script with only a few lines? Btw., most lines are always the same (function declarations, case structures, etc.). The only important part is usually only one line. This is systemd internals. It's not expected from the user to play with symlinks. Just like in proprietary software. Once again: Why does it need such symlinks in some cryptic directories? The point is, I want to have full control over my system and not to rely on some software's internals. And I don't want to read source codes to know what an init system is doing. And full control includes knowing what file is saved where and doing what. OTOH for the systemd case, we are changing of paradigm for the boot process. I'm not aware of such a change in the boot process for years. All recent event-based init systems have raise fear. Which init systems? I only know SysVinit. And why wasn't there a change for years? Actually there was never a change. Because this init system is so bad? I would rather say because it's so well tested and approved, and because it's simple and just works and does what it is supposed to do. Odd, Arch uses SysV's init, but it certainly doesn't have a SysVinit init system. It's much closer to BSD, and a lot of the tools we use are custom. Others include OpenRC (used by Gentoo), Upstart (used by Ubuntu) and of course systemd (used by Fedora) Maybe there are things that can be improved. Maybe there is code which has to be written or executed more than once with SysVinit. Well, this could be changed and improved. If this justifies a complete new init system is questionable I think. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:03 AM, Manolo Martínez man...@austrohungaro.com wrote: On 07/25/12 at 01:47am, C Anthony Risinger wrote: to reiterate the above ... it works fantastic. the Pandaboard runs 9 custom unit files (1/2 of which are just mods to the shipped unit files): u.dhcpd4.service u.dnsmasq.service u.fwknopd.service u.hostapd.service iptables.service u.net.dhcp@.service u.net.static@.service u.openvpn.service (writing now :-) u.services.target What does u.net.static@.service do? If something similar to ifplugd, I'm interested :) i haven't used ifplugd before so i'm not 100% sure how it all compares, but basically this unit file is linked directly to a network device -- ie. the existence of the device itself is what triggers it. the unit is also bound to the device, so if it disappears (unplugged, whatever) then the unit is also deactivated/shutdown (kill dhcp/etc). i conveniently just pasted/explained these files in another thread: http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-July/028656.html ... take a look :-) im trying to find ways to make them more flexible, but the important bit is the: sys-subsystem-net-devices-lan0.device.wants/[...] ... which says when device `lan0` shows up, trigger [...] NOTE: archive is mangling the email addresses, use paste instead: http://dpaste.com/775183/ -- C Anthony
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:57:02AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: Then create a service file in /etc/systemd/system/davids-network.service [unit] description= David's Network Setup Wants= network.target Before= network.target [service] Type = oneshot ExecStart=/usr/local/bin/davids-network.sh [instal] WantedBy= multi-user.target Can't help it, I find this syntax ugly (CamelCase), illiterate (assigning values to prepositions and verbs), and confusing. In 'A.service', what does 'Before= B' mean ? Does A come before B or the inverse ? i normally prefer underscores in code ... but i'm pretty sure that would look terrible? the verb/preposition-like keywords usually describe other units -- eg. other services/targets/ACTIVITIES -- so i don't think it's incomprehensible. all keywords are from A's perspective: - A `Wants` to start B when it starts (if available) - A must finish `Before` B can start (if started simultaneously) - A is `WantedBy` by C (if installing A permanently) - etc. ... basically it reads as you'd expect. -- C Anthony
[arch-general] fluxbox + notification-daemon
Hi all, I've some problem with notification-daemon. Trying to start notification-daemon with my fluxbox at startup I get some errors. The problem is when the daemon receive a notification For example if I send something with notify-send: notify-send hi hello this is a notification I see this notification-daemon crash with this error: (notification-daemon:11776): GdkPixbuf-CRITICAL **: gdk_pixbuf_scale_simple: assertion `dest_width 0' failed Rilevato trace/breakpoint here my fluxbox startup: ... /usr/lib/notification-daemon-1.0/notification-daemon 21 /tmp/nofifications.log batti xscreensaver -no-splash conky tilda exec fluxbox -log .fluxbox/log There is someone who get same problem here or maybe anyone know how to fix ? *yes I'm Italian :) -- *Preziusi Roberto*
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Why you would want to specify which services had to come before or after which other services is obvious when you consider that systemd boots services in parallel. There is no way in the current system, and no way without specifying, to boot several daemons at the same time and then boot other daemons afterwards Maybe you could be clearer because scripting is almost boundless. Performance sensitive apps may require perl, C, assembly or hardware driven systems of course. The issue to me begins with whatever requires systemd be so large to start with and not be started by a script or init to begin with. There are plenty of languages with concurrency. personally I will obviously keep tabs on how systemd evolves but currently it's not a glove that fits for us all, thankfully that's not required to run arch easily yet. that depend on them having completely launched. In the interests of learning for my scripts and hopefully without leading the witnesses who may badger Tom? I'm interested to know how systemd knows universally that a service is completely launched ignoring that daemons themselves don't always know? I'm surprised people are still coming out with it is obviously far superior in every way. Change it to many ways atleast, please. -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
I am realistic and professional, because I speak from experience, like I said before more than 25 years. If the next employer you'll make an application should read this, you was an professional. Is that a joke because I don't get it? I'd hire him, if I could afford him!
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Hello Heiko, this is simply not true. First of all, starting with Windows XP the stability of Windows (yes, Windows, not Windoze) got much better and there are very few crashes which are mostly related to driver issues, IMO. Incidentally, I installed a fresh XP a couple of weeks ago. The system had some sort of IDE cable problem that Linux tolerated. I finally got XP updated and ready to backup and after a reboot a message like. One of your registry files got corrupted and has been recovered with a backup. Nothing in task bar, start menu empty, various other problems. Why should one corrupted file damage so much but you also hope for a concise universal interface with the opposite seeming to come along more often. Try getting Gnome3 to not raise a window on click, it's easier but still problematic to get it to not raise a window on focus. Secondly, Windows doesn't need to be reinstalled every 3 months. Come on, most companies use Windows on their desktops and they don't need to reinstall them every 3 months. And their employees actually can work with their computers. You can't argue that it won't have slowed down all by itself. Some blame temp files, MFT, hidden malware your AV can't find but the registry can certainly take some blame, isn't a universal interface and has configuration strewn all over the place under hex codes needing deciphered that are as bad as some of the error messages. -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
If a service is not provided: - with SysVinit you have to write the whole script usually relying on whatever library the distribution provides (which tend to be error-prone); - with systemd, you just write a configuration file. Well arch has some includes to make it prettier. On OpenBSD you have in rc.conf.local sshd=YES or sshd=-f /etc/sshdconfishere or in rc.local sshd echo sshd started successfully This also demonstrates how easy shell can be to users and is a very good encouragement to get users hacking or more importantly in complete control. And now package provided ones in rc.d which I have never actually needed to use on servers or desktops. In fact I love that my systems aren't sending packets I haven't told them to, except my Android and TVs and Cisco router which I sold after fixing that and would have been glad I did if I had ever put it online as exploits were found in the source of those packets. For the second, whether you use systemd or SysVinit, configuring a service is typically done by editing the configuration file dedicated to this service. In systemd, the file is declared like this EnvironmentFile=/etc/conf.d/nfs which is by itself much easier to hack (rather than reading in a shell script to find where and how such a file is used). Because that is so much clearer than a -f flag rightly in control of the daemons developer and in plain logical sight in the daemons man page or config file. then systemd creates some symlinks of files into another directory whose name is also totally cryptic, at least way to long. This is a total mess, if this is really true, and it's absolutely a step towards a second Windoze. This is systemd internals. It's not expected from the user to play with symlinks. I found via Google that I had to to setup my ttys with autologin and logs etc.. I restate One of the founding principles of UNIX is that small tools that do a single job well allow complete flexibility whereas large tools do what the devs foresee very well but will likely hinder users or the unforeseen uses (hacking). -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
The 24/07/12, Kevin Chadwick wrote: Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or machine. Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that when a service is failing, everybody first think it's because of the init process and try to fix the bug in the /sbin/init C sources. It's funny how you think init which was designed to be as simple as possible is likely to have as many bugs as systemd. It's funny how you think init scripts ― without consistant/sensible design over them, not deployed as widely as systemd and touched by so many people ― are likely to have as many bugs as systemd. No one thinks many init systems are better than a couple possibly with a universal interface. (competition being healthy) -- Nicolas Sebrecht -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
The 24/07/12, Kevin Chadwick wrote: Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that reviewing the config files and getting the source and finding the bug in C is much easier of course and can be fixed immediately by anyone without another OS or machine. Did you read this before posting. It's obvious that when a service is failing, everybody first think it's because of the init process and try to fix the bug in the /sbin/init C sources. It's funny how you think init which was designed to be as simple as possible is likely to have as many bugs as systemd. It's funny how you think init scripts ― without consistant/sensible design over them, not deployed as widely as systemd and touched by so many people ― are likely to have as many bugs as systemd. No one thinks many init systems are better than a couple possibly with a universal interface. (competition being healthy) -- Nicolas Sebrecht -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Jul 25, 2012 6:14 PM, Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Why you would want to specify which services had to come before or after which other services is obvious when you consider that systemd boots services in parallel. There is no way in the current system, and no way without specifying, to boot several daemons at the same time and then boot other daemons afterwards Maybe you could be clearer because scripting is almost boundless. There is no way to specify in DAEMONS that syslog-ng and dbus should be started in parallel, and only when they are both up and running should network manager be started. that depend on them having completely launched. In the interests of learning for my scripts and hopefully without leading the witnesses who may badger Tom? I'm interested to know how systemd knows universally that a service is completely launched ignoring that daemons themselves don't always know? A well written sysv daemon should only double fork once it is 'ready'. initscripts relies on this behaviour already (that is how we know when to start the 'next' daemon from the DAEMONS array). Systemd can either use this mechanism (Type= forking) or one of several other ones. That said, there its no magic: if the daemon does not know, then systemd does not know. Cheers, Tom
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 16:12 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: I am realistic and professional, because I speak from experience, like I said before more than 25 years. If the next employer you'll make an application should read this, you was an professional. Is that a joke because I don't get it? I'd hire him, if I could afford him! I'm kidding, not serious.
[arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
L. Poettering takes photos from himself in front of the mirror (google!) very often and publishes them by the Internet. I'm a pro-audio user. How many pro-audio cards are working with PA? L. Poettering, the boy with the same haircut as Bill Gates, blames the ALSA driver, but with jack and ALSA there are no issues. I don't like consolekit and systemd seems to improve this, anyway, ... Splitting /etc/rc.conf isn't bad per se and claiming that XP needs to be restored/reinstalled every quarter of a year is nonsense.
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Maybe you could be clearer because scripting is almost boundless. There is no way to specify in DAEMONS that syslog-ng and dbus should be started in parallel, and only when they are both up and running should network manager be started. Personally I don't care about shaving a second or two but the simplest config change could be. DAEMONS=syslog-ng(3), dbus(3), network-manager(4) that depend on them having completely launched. In the interests of learning for my scripts and hopefully without leading the witnesses who may badger Tom? I'm interested to know how systemd knows universally that a service is completely launched ignoring that daemons themselves don't always know? A well written sysv daemon should only double fork once it is 'ready'. initscripts relies on this behaviour already (that is how we know when to start the 'next' daemon from the DAEMONS array). Systemd can either use this mechanism (Type= forking) or one of several other ones. That said, there its no magic: if the daemon does not know, then systemd does not know. Thanks -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 18:54 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: L. Poettering takes photos from himself in front of the mirror (google!) very often and publishes them by the Internet. I'm a pro-audio user. How many pro-audio cards are working with PA? L. Poettering, the boy with the same haircut as Bill Gates, blames the ALSA driver, but with jack and ALSA there are no issues. I don't like consolekit and systemd seems to improve this, anyway, ... Splitting /etc/rc.conf isn't bad per se and claiming that XP needs to be restored/reinstalled every quarter of a year is nonsense. Resume: I don't like L. Poettering (I don't know him personally, so I might be completely wrong), I don't like pulseaudio (for good reasons), I don't have knowledge about systemd, but I'm willing to learn. What has got Windows to do with that? And why needs a Windows admin to reinstall it ever 3 month? An admin should fix issues. Many users are able to install it every 3 month them selfs. And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting?
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting? And some people wonder why Arch devs don't read arch-general... -- A: Because it obfuscates the reading. Q: Why is top posting so bad? For more information, please read: http://idallen.com/topposting.html --- Denis A. Altoe Falqueto Linux user #524555 ---
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 14:13 -0300, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting? And some people wonder why Arch devs don't read arch-general... I only can apologize for my relatively less spam, not for the tons of spam others already added. Pardon, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 14:13 -0300, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting? And some people wonder why Arch devs don't read arch-general... I only can apologize for my relatively less spam, not for the tons of spam others already added. It's not meant to you directly. Your last sentence triggered the reply I've kept for some time just for myself. I could elaborate, but I'm not sure if the problematic people would really understand. -- A: Because it obfuscates the reading. Q: Why is top posting so bad? For more information, please read: http://idallen.com/topposting.html --- Denis A. Altoe Falqueto Linux user #524555 ---
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:07:29 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 18:54 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: L. Poettering takes photos from himself in front of the mirror (google!) very often and publishes them by the Internet. I'm a pro-audio user. How many pro-audio cards are working with PA? L. Poettering, the boy with the same haircut as Bill Gates, blames the ALSA driver, but with jack and ALSA there are no issues. Is there any relation between these 4 sentences? Hint: noone cares about your random thoughts... I don't like consolekit and systemd seems to improve this, anyway, ... Splitting /etc/rc.conf isn't bad per se and claiming that XP needs to be restored/reinstalled every quarter of a year is nonsense. Resume: I don't like L. Poettering (I don't know him personally, so I might be completely wrong), I don't like pulseaudio (for good reasons), I don't have knowledge about systemd, but I'm willing to learn. Are you in the habit of not liking people you don't know? What has got Windows to do with that? And why needs a Windows admin to reinstall it ever 3 month? An admin should fix issues. Many users are able to install it every 3 month them selfs. And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting? And what does consolekit have to do with rc.conf? -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 14:27 -0300, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 14:13 -0300, Denis A. Altoé Falqueto wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting? And some people wonder why Arch devs don't read arch-general... I only can apologize for my relatively less spam, not for the tons of spam others already added. It's not meant to you directly. Your last sentence triggered the reply I've kept for some time just for myself. I could elaborate, but I'm not sure if the problematic people would really understand. Most of us are men ;). There's another thread, where somebody add a note to a simple logical fact (it seems so be a sub-thread of this thread) and he's right, since I don't like him, I don't add +1 :D. I might bite in my own ass, once I've to handle stuff that is in any kind (math, philosophy) irrational, just because of the proud not to add a +1. IMO there are no problematic people, some of us, including myself (perhaps on other lists) sometimes overdo things a little bit. How cares? We are humans, we might sound like idiots on mailing lists, but a simple phone call sometimes (often?) could change our minds. - Ralf
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 12:41 -0500, Leonid Isaev wrote: On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:07:29 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-07-25 at 18:54 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: L. Poettering takes photos from himself in front of the mirror (google!) very often and publishes them by the Internet. I'm a pro-audio user. How many pro-audio cards are working with PA? L. Poettering, the boy with the same haircut as Bill Gates, blames the ALSA driver, but with jack and ALSA there are no issues. Is there any relation between these 4 sentences? Hint: noone cares about your random thoughts... I don't like consolekit and systemd seems to improve this, anyway, ... Splitting /etc/rc.conf isn't bad per se and claiming that XP needs to be restored/reinstalled every quarter of a year is nonsense. Resume: I don't like L. Poettering (I don't know him personally, so I might be completely wrong), I don't like pulseaudio (for good reasons), I don't have knowledge about systemd, but I'm willing to learn. Are you in the habit of not liking people you don't know? What has got Windows to do with that? And why needs a Windows admin to reinstall it ever 3 month? An admin should fix issues. Many users are able to install it every 3 month them selfs. And what has all that to do with /etc/rc.conf splitting? And what does consolekit have to do with rc.conf? You're right. It was my broken English way + personal impressions to mention, that this thread perhaps should be closed.
[arch-general] Joining mp3's -- Floating point exceptionffmpeg
Hi, folks, for joining audio dramas (d/l from Amazon) which come along in MP3-Format I use a short script #!/bin/bash mp3wrap tmp.mp3 *.mp3 ffmpeg -i tmp_MP3WRAP.mp3 -acodec copy all.mp3 rm tmp_MP3WRAP.mp3 It works for half of my books, processing the other half produces this error message: /home/nelson/scripts/mp3_join.sh: line 3: 15295 Floating point exceptionffmpeg -i tmp_MP3WRAP.mp3 -acodec copy all.mp3 As to my knowledge the script worked fine for a few months then, I think after an update of ffmpeg, the trouble shown above began. Are the MP3 files corrupt or is this a bug in ffmpeg. I'd say it is a bug, because running Windows and MP3 Album Maker it still works fine. OK, I could keep Windows for this scenario but I try to get away from this. Does anyone have an advice for me ? Have the suitable parameters for ffmpeg changed ? Or is the ffmpeg-call obsolete meanwhile (it seemed to be necessary for fixing the audio-header concering track length) ? Thanks in advance, Nelson.
Re: [arch-general] Joining mp3's -- Floating point exceptionffmpeg
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 08:26:37PM +0200, Nelson Marambio wrote: Does anyone have an advice for me ? Have the suitable parameters for ffmpeg changed ? Or is the ffmpeg-call obsolete meanwhile (it seemed to be necessary for fixing the audio-header concering track length) ? Despite the chance that someone here will be able to help you, I suspect you'd get along far better on the ffmpeg mailing list (or whatever support medium they use). As to my knowledge the script worked fine for a few months then, I think after an update of ffmpeg, the trouble shown above began. I would take a look at the ffmpeg changelogs from that time period to see if they contain anything relevant. Good luck, pants.
[arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
Hello, folks Due to recent changes in arch linux, I have some qustion about new process of installation and configuration of arch linux. I am really not computer geek, so I apologize if I express anything incorrectly. First. About absence of core images. When I just read about it, I thought why they did it. But then I realize that arch is rolling release system after all. This fact means periodical and quite frequent updates, which are impossible without Internet connection. So if you would like to install Linux on computer without Internet, choose OS with fixed release cycle - all the system packages (as well as applications) will be on that distribution. So I am glad that now there is one universal iso-image instead of six. Second. About absence of AIF. I really sorry about it. As I said I am not so geeky to install everything with closed eyes. AIF helped me a lot. It gives me tips what to do next and how to do it. Now, when burned CD finished loading, I just see prompt to enter commands and nothing else. But I just do not know what to do next. So if I do not have installation guide previously printed on paper, I just become consused what to do next. So, I really hope that to the moment when next iso snapshot will be released, AIF will be fixed and included in that release. But for the present I would like at least to have installation guide included in installation iso (with a note where this guide resides) in order to switch to it during installation. Third. About systemd. As I understand from installation guide on Wiki all the configuration now is made not in rc.conf but in several config files. I do not know yet whether it is good or bad. But in Wiki I can read the following: 1) instead of NETWORKING section I should specify hostname in /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts. Why should I duplicate information? The danger of need to duplicate information is that it have to be synchronized. 2) instead of LOCALIZATION section I should specify locale in /etc/locale.conf and /etc/locale.gen. Again why should I duplicate information? 3) instead of LOCALIZATION section I should specify timezone in /etc/timezone and /etc/localtime. And again the same question. Why? Besides, where should I specify my network connection settings? In what systemd-specific file? As I understand in ... rc.conf. And what about daemons? Where to specify them? Again in rc.conf? And now the main question. If new plan of reorganization of configuration files can not manage without rc.conf, why there is so need to split it? I hope you can make it clear, guys.
Re: [arch-general] Joining mp3's -- Floating point exceptionffmpeg
Am 25.07.2012 20:54, schrieb pants: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 08:26:37PM +0200, Nelson Marambio wrote: Does anyone have an advice for me ? Have the suitable parameters for ffmpeg changed ? Or is the ffmpeg-call obsolete meanwhile (it seemed to be necessary for fixing the audio-header concering track length) ? Despite the chance that someone here will be able to help you, I suspect you'd get along far better on the ffmpeg mailing list (or whatever support medium they use). As to my knowledge the script worked fine for a few months then, I think after an update of ffmpeg, the trouble shown above began. I would take a look at the ffmpeg changelogs from that time period to see if they contain anything relevant. Good luck, pants. Consulting my pkg cache it was the upgrade from 0.9.2 (ffmpeg-20120509-1-i686.pkg.tar.xz) to 0.11.1 . But browsing the changelog sounds rather positive [1], [2] - especially the contributions from Daniel Krang and Michael Niedermayer on [2]. UPDATE: running the script a second time, error messages get more detailed: [mp3 @ 0x8396940] Header missing Now it's interesting to find out the corrupt mp3-file among the 27 of the drama. ^^ [1] http://git.videolan.org/?p=ffmpeg.gita=searchh=n0.11.1st=commits=acodec+copy [2] http://git.videolan.org/?p=ffmpeg.gita=searchh=n0.11.1st=commits=Floating+point+exception
Re: [arch-general] [Bulk] Re: My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Guys, relax, we are all in the same wagon, it's a nonsense to make anything personal nor to demonstrate who has the bigger dick, fuck off all that shit. As some _DEVS_ had actually stated, let's discuss everything from a TECHNICAL point of view, arguing and ranting because personal dislikes of proposed new technology or procedures should not have a place here, there is a special section in our forums for that and even if you prefer ML you can create a new thread for your rants. Folks, we are suppose to be a community of geeks/nerds/hobbyst whatever else who happens to like IT, who happens to like and in many cases work with GNU/Linux and similar technologies AND -most important- who happens to fucking like Arch Linux because of every single other distro out there Arch is the only one that rocks our boat. So try to be constructive and if someone says something that upsets you please choose your words with care and re-read two or three times your emails before pushing Send because there's no way back afterwards. Let's act like adults (we're all grown ups here), not selfish idiots. Cheers, archers! -- -msx
[arch-general] Systemd +1
Hey all,
I just wanted to share my experience with you. I follow closely the
changes and discussion about systemd and I have to say that in the
first I was worried also that taken away the basic configuration from
rc.conf will be complicated and will cause more pain.
I usually enjoy breaking my computer into a point that I have to spend
2 hours reading the wiki or forums to fix it. Now days though I don't
have much time mainly due to work. Thus I wanted to get ahead of the
migration of initscripts to systemd.
I recently made an Archlinux installation on my laptop so the system
was quite clean. It was the perfect target for systemd migration. I
just installed the systemd and opened up wiki page. I started making
configuration changes to the files replacing entries in rc.conf with
new files.
It was quite straight forward if you know your system and refer back
to your rc.conf.
When done I removed the intescripts and rebooted. It was that simple.
Had a bit of glinches as I didn't enable networkmanager from the start
and reboot from inside the gnome didn't work, but now it's all fixed.
I recommend to all to try at least once the systemd migration and then
express opinions. It's really easy.
Maybe it's just my idea but I think the system is somewhat faster on
the booting now.
Just my opinion but as I see initscripts are abandoned and Archlinux
is a bleeding edge distro, it's natural solution to adopt systemd.
+1 from me :)
Disclaimer: this was done on a laptop a very recent installation,
maybe on other more complicated installations it's harder.
Leonidas
--
Caution: breathing may be hazardous to your health.
#include stdio.h
int main(){printf(%s,\x4c\x65\x6f\x6e\x69\x64\x61\x73);}
Re: [arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
On Jul 25, 2012 9:22 PM, brainwor...@lavabit.com wrote: Hello, folks Due to recent changes in arch linux, I have some qustion about new process of installation and configuration of arch linux. I am really not computer geek, so I apologize if I express anything incorrectly. First. About absence of core images. When I just read about it, I thought why they did it. But then I realize that arch is rolling release system after all. This fact means periodical and quite frequent updates, which are impossible without Internet connection. So if you would like to install Linux on computer without Internet, choose OS with fixed release cycle - all the system packages (as well as applications) will be on that distribution. So I am glad that now there is one universal iso-image instead of six. Second. About absence of AIF. I really sorry about it. As I said I am not so geeky to install everything with closed eyes. AIF helped me a lot. It gives me tips what to do next and how to do it. Now, when burned CD finished loading, I just see prompt to enter commands and nothing else. But I just do not know what to do next. So if I do not have installation guide previously printed on paper, I just become consused what to do next. So, I really hope that to the moment when next iso snapshot will be released, AIF will be fixed and included in that release. But for the present I would like at least to have installation guide included in installation iso (with a note where this guide resides) in order to switch to it during installation. Third. About systemd. As I understand from installation guide on Wiki all the configuration now is made not in rc.conf but in several config files. I do not know yet whether it is good or bad. But in Wiki I can read the following: 1) instead of NETWORKING section I should specify hostname in /etc/hostname and /etc/hosts. Why should I duplicate information? The danger of need to duplicate information is that it have to be synchronized. /etc/hosts was always needed. However, you can avoid configuring it if you use nss-myhostname (in extra). 2) instead of LOCALIZATION section I should specify locale in /etc/locale.conf and /etc/locale.gen. Again why should I duplicate information? locale.gen was always needed. It decides which locales should be available on your system. You can enable lots of locales if you wish. Which one to use is configured in locale.conf. 3) instead of LOCALIZATION section I should specify timezone in /etc/timezone and /etc/localtime. And again the same question. Why? /etc/timezone is not used by initscripts, don't know what the benefit of that one is. What matters is /etc/localtime. Besides, where should I specify my network connection settings? In what systemd-specific file? As I understand in ... rc.conf. And what about daemons? Where to specify them? Again in rc.conf? Both in rc.conf. See the various man pages for more details. It should be much clearer in the rc.conf man page in testing. If it is still unclear, let me know. And now the main question. If new plan of reorganization of configuration files can not manage without rc.conf, why there is so need to split it? rc.conf should now only contain what is necessary to configure the initscripts. See arch-dev-public for details. Tom
Re: [arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
And now the main question. If new plan of reorganization of configuration files can not manage without rc.conf, why there is so need to split it? rc.conf should now only contain what is necessary to configure the initscripts. See arch-dev-public for details. So systemd is instead of initscripts? or two technogolies together?
Re: [arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
W dniu 25.07.2012 21:49, brainwor...@lavabit.com pisze: And now the main question. If new plan of reorganization of configuration files can not manage without rc.conf, why there is so need to split it? rc.conf should now only contain what is necessary to configure the initscripts. See arch-dev-public for details. So systemd is instead of initscripts? or two technogolies together? systemd is an optional replacement for initscripts. If you want, you can install and configure it, but you also keep it the old way :). You'll get initscripts by default.
Re: [arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
On 07/25/2012 01:49 PM, brainwor...@lavabit.com wrote: And now the main question. If new plan of reorganization of configuration files can not manage without rc.conf, why there is so need to split it? rc.conf should now only contain what is necessary to configure the initscripts. See arch-dev-public for details. So systemd is instead of initscripts? or two technogolies together? systemd comes with a few ad-hoc utilities like systemd-cryptsetup for parsing /etc/cryptsetup. initscripts is just leveraging these utils so that the configuration for either system is exactly the same. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
Hi, I'm in a hurry to work so I will try to be the most clear but succint possible, forgive any typo then :) [...]So if I do not have installation guide previously printed on paper, I just become consused what to do next.[...] But for the present I would like at least to have installation guide included in installation iso (with a note where this guide resides) in order to switch to it during installation.[...] +1 I second that and I already asked for the very same guide to be included in the ISO, may be one will be included in the _next_ ISO - if I understand right, there will be a new ISO release every month. Did you chek if links or elinks (or w3m or a similar text web-browser) is available? I didn't tried yet the new ISO but elinks was shipped in the last images so it's a breeze to connect to our wiki and check the install guide - in this case the AIS wiki. Regarding your last question -and since I've been very busy these days- I didn't tried systemd either, this is a pending course for me, but for you to configure your network you can use netcfg[0], Arch's shiny network manager first introduced few months ago; you will find examples of wired and wifi connections in /etc/network.d [0] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Netcfg See you around. -- -msx
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:57:02AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: Then create a service file in /etc/systemd/system/davids-network.service [unit] description= David's Network Setup Wants= network.target Before= network.target [service] Type = oneshot ExecStart=/usr/local/bin/davids-network.sh [instal] WantedBy= multi-user.target Thanks! I will be testing this (and a few other things) just as soon as I work my courage up to try a reboot. I know you're supposed to test one thing at a time. This situation doesn't really allow that. :-/ - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQEFxvAAoJELT202JKF+xpPMYP+gOryJH4w5hIJ48kZbXDEm+6 ZuOTiJSXSTJrA8hJaAcNayrhd04uyXH2fJrpTcdDF789Bfd+xvp3rkjxN1srQsTo /3CT2lzPDdbI+ueMRK106hy7DcumGEtQla3J3ze92ntbfQmsfRh/0z/0Akdrfrzh Jbh5+4QeVsgumvxC/PH4dtBVzISYKPtbHV7kATSlPFAVffyjtfGhg5+NAn799s62 pbshRHwh/tnZ/JRU5grpwevCxMXfQcw2o7brNR6+plQiJNVTm6+LuKYycC6928kQ 0BYOqPnUQweis1vclWIbAQvrkN/h9noRvbRGv2tIejApxvV8EzugS0vKc3Ck3FcR ujVclEe7maKRi92mI70MwctpmWJXfc6EHtybArkTUXXh1U8rL88Tpqf2kmZHJX9Z XBb/5uXneCV9ocCSyFok7ZdNEjWU2uxOIppOFXZsphCbV82/L/mvg45tmMhUml5C szHKWatHuT5pIaG+xZ0URyb7iBI3XX1+iu2e+I9WpdeUsv0AHaaA9kgONeoQmFF/ TH+6FAUu5/oLtG7kSm2k+LP2C2fH0lXVzg7FQHYtu+a5sQ8OOs9LaV+XCjy3+N47 pLRIKACRy1YzqNCeT5/jFkMnvZVeDgqHUhb3LbUqhERkxntY0hCbDBwQ6+QrfSEd MMvad/y9QgwJTLhhRh3A =bZzG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] How do I should install and configure arch linux
Welcome ;)
On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:22:43 -0400 (EDT)
brainwor...@lavabit.com wrote:
Hello, folks
Due to recent changes in arch linux, I have some qustion about new process
of installation and configuration of arch linux.
I am really not computer geek, so I apologize if I express anything
incorrectly.
First. About absence of core images. When I just read about it, I thought
why they did it. But then I realize that arch is rolling release system
after all. This fact means periodical and quite frequent updates, which
are impossible without Internet connection. So if you would like to
install Linux on computer without Internet, choose OS with fixed release
cycle - all the system packages (as well as applications) will be on that
distribution. So I am glad that now there is one universal iso-image
instead of six.
Second. About absence of AIF. I really sorry about it. As I said I am not
so geeky to install everything with closed eyes. AIF helped me a lot. It
gives me tips what to do next and how to do it. Now, when burned CD
finished loading, I just see prompt to enter commands and nothing else.
But I just do not know what to do next. So if I do not have installation
guide previously printed on paper, I just become consused what to do next.
So, I really hope that to the moment when next iso snapshot will be
released, AIF will be fixed and included in that release.
But for the present I would like at least to have installation guide
included in installation iso (with a note where this guide resides) in
order to switch to it during installation.
Third. About systemd. As I understand from installation guide on Wiki all
the configuration now is made not in rc.conf but in several config files.
I do not know yet whether it is good or bad. But in Wiki I can read the
following:
1) instead of NETWORKING section I should specify hostname in
/etc/hostname and /etc/hosts. Why should I duplicate information? The
danger of need to duplicate information is that it have to be
synchronized.
Currently, with core/initscripts (not systemd) you need only /etc/hosts.
2) instead of LOCALIZATION section I should specify locale in
/etc/locale.conf and /etc/locale.gen. Again why should I duplicate
information?
3) instead of LOCALIZATION section I should specify timezone in
/etc/timezone and /etc/localtime. And again the same question. Why?
Besides, where should I specify my network connection settings? In what
systemd-specific file? As I understand in ... rc.conf. And what about
daemons? Where to specify them? Again in rc.conf?
It depends on your network setup (wifi, static IP, etc.) and desktop
environment. In my experience netcfg+wpa_actiond is the most robust option.
But beware that you'll need admin priviledges to manage networks at runtime.
If that's OK, create a profile in /etc/network.d (there are example templates)
and add net-auto-wire{d,less} into DAEMONS in rc.conf. Otherwise, you may want
networkmanager or wicd to better integrate into GNOME/KDE, for example.
Also, if I were you, I would start with the usual sysvinit/initscripts, and
upgrade to systemd when things are working properly.
And now the main question. If new plan of reorganization of configuration
files can not manage without rc.conf, why there is so need to split it?
I hope you can make it clear, guys.
--
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D
Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
Thanks! I will be testing this (and a few other things) just as soon as I work my courage up to try a reboot. I know you're supposed to test one thing at a time. This situation doesn't really allow that. :-/ Can you not find the space to create images or dumps, so that you can try again if need be. Or do you have a massive root partition. As root you could. Backup / likely with (check if root is /dev/sda in /etc/fstab and you may need /var, /usr too) /bin/dd if=/dev/sda bs=32k | /bin/gzip /home/dave/sda-backup.gz If you have problems boot the cd mount your home and restore / with /bin/cat /home/dave/sda-backup.gz | /bin/gunzip | /bin/dd bs=32k of=/dev/sda Or use clonezilla -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] Systemd +1
Hi everyone! My experience with systemd is a +1 as well. I use it in my laptop and it provides a nice experience for a desktop user. Starting services on demand, suspend support and all other features gives a nice experience for an end user. Maybe it's just my idea but I think the system is somewhat faster on the booting now. True for me as well. From grub to kdm in around 5sec. Nevertheless, this overall good opinion can't hide certain (or significant I might say) worries. Your system now relies in a bunch of binary code that might not be posible to workaround if something goes wrong. Scripts may not be as efficient but they are great in order to skip,modify or run them in case of emergency. Logging using systemd infrastructure provides a very pleasent usage experience for me as you can very easily select the relevant records you're interested in without a lot of grep magic. But I've already suffered the downside of relying on binary stored records. In case of system crash/forced shutdown or power failure log files might end up corrupted. Which is a pretty nasty thing you don't want to happen and it opens a big door to atacks. I would recomend systemd for interactive users but I don't wan't it in a server that much. I can't give an opinion on wether initscripts should be dropped or not. Aitor Pazos Ibarzabal Instant Messaging (Jabber, GTalk): ai...@aitorpazos.es Web: http://aitorpazos.es PGP Public Key: http://aitorpazos.es/publickey.asc
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
check if root is /dev/sda in /etc/fstab and you may need /var, /usr too) /bin/dd if=/dev/sda bs=32k | /bin/gzip /home/dave/sda-backup.gz Oops, autopilot check if / is /dev/sda1 /dev/sda is whole disk which will likely take ages without clonezilla. -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: [arch-general] Skype locks up my system, not even sysrq keys work
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Mauro Santos registo.maill...@gmail.com wrote: There are reports that the uvcvideo module needs to be loaded with nodrop=1 in order to get things to work smoothly, do search in the forums, I believe I saw something about this there. I can't believe that I did not find this valuable information earlier. Thank you, that solved this problem.
Re: [arch-general] Skype locks up my system, not even sysrq keys work
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:49 PM, SanskritFritz sanskritfr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Mauro Santos registo.maill...@gmail.com wrote: There are reports that the uvcvideo module needs to be loaded with nodrop=1 in order to get things to work smoothly, do search in the forums, I believe I saw something about this there. I can't believe that I did not find this valuable information earlier. Thank you, that solved this problem. ...and just after I wrote this, the system froze again, after several hours of skyping :( This time it happened when I opened a movie during a skype session. nodrop=1 is still on.
Re: [arch-general] Skype locks up my system, not even sysrq keys work
On 25-07-2012 23:20, SanskritFritz wrote: On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:49 PM, SanskritFritz sanskritfr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Mauro Santos registo.maill...@gmail.com wrote: There are reports that the uvcvideo module needs to be loaded with nodrop=1 in order to get things to work smoothly, do search in the forums, I believe I saw something about this there. I can't believe that I did not find this valuable information earlier. Thank you, that solved this problem. ...and just after I wrote this, the system froze again, after several hours of skyping :( This time it happened when I opened a movie during a skype session. nodrop=1 is still on. I don't know if the graphics card you are using supports video decoding acceleration and if skype can make use of it, but at least here with the ati binary blob, I can only get video decoding acceleration for one video stream at a time, trying to decode 2 videos at the same time with video decoding acceleration results in a hard crash. I have never tried with skype and currently I'm using the free drivers so I have no way to test this. If this is true for your case it should be quite easy to reproduce. It might have been just a random crash caused by skype too, since it isn't the most stable piece of software you can use. -- Mauro Santos
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 07/25/2012 03:47 PM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: Can you not find the space to create images or dumps, so that you can try again if need be. Or do you have a massive root partition. It's pretty big. And I'm a starving and unemployed (Ph.D.) student so I lack the funds to fire up a second Linode to test with. I'm pretty clear that if it fails, I can go back to booting the Linode kernel and it will hand off to the old init which will bring things up the old way. What may fail is an aspect of logging, since syslog has to listen to a different socket. Thanks! - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQEHUBAAoJELT202JKF+xpLBMP/2NquXXu8hsT/5tVs83KPt8P BkiyC+R4aFdmDA/5YbKjt6FLxJ4/JKiG3CLe/aO9Ix0ucWS6wMwjP9544n7F9SwN GKuqBiNXT2X57mQ95IAskDwdfcdlrPXn1VEdg1WNd31D8mVNNAtNW6OTCV7XJTWP R3283CxrS3c4r2R+wblCekoJ4ov//jmQQ1o9YZNQbCycSqkxVskjM0OR1AYodDkG sysxig1lVLvLpXsahR6ztBRhSZGoTemc+5Kr2MHK9gatBvclnuYPkdc3PHtqgNgd 9iAP6uds69LVZ8Y5Mtm5tLtaIkfq832F6KqdTMOzdrYYKuughD5Mj/FIs8+BFn5x NeqdKEWnpIn7BDt3dsxRiCTyqyp6FUPwePtkA+b/YepueacOOxSpGGAfZ4risnLC afs6Kgde6L5DiRkqeRLgz3V6kH6I1k4zb9zH0SvlWO+e/sSPMoZCIqlyMgP4BOpj 1SRdjpkDgPBUPaU4agEXbKOeT9n/bciD1eP3sbUNJJV9c3axNRy0tpjjXUFsKbOd oEmfysNov6MreCqg0yWUco9MyqhzwfNkAzfEjvOHTWauouESoqXT5zoGgA9D9H2a /+Z+VPAyfcBrn7ULacPJT+y6MREA3git8HronMJAGPrBIqPPdiekgUwCKviBz86H jlA/fpcUWHwoSN80h/8V =NQVP -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] My end-user $0.02 on /etc/rc.conf splitting.
Am Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:05:37 -0400 schrieb Stephen E. Baker baker.stephe...@gmail.com: This DAEMONS array is nice, one of the things I like about Arch, but it is specific to Arch not SysV. If you run Gentoo, or others you won't have something like that, you'll have a program that arranges symlinks, not entirely unlike systemd. Well, yes. I guess you're right, at least somehow. It's long ago that I switched from Gentoo to Arch. Nevertheless I'm not quite sure if systemd does the same as Gentoo does. At least Gentoo does this with shell scripts. But I still had no time to read the links about systemd, Tom posted recently. Why you would want to specify which services had to come before or after which other services is obvious when you consider that systemd boots services in parallel. Principally right again. But I have a problem with booting daemons in parallel, on Gentoo as well as on Arch. Made several problems. But I can't tell anymore which. So I prefer booting in serial, even if it's slower. If I recall correctly this was also one of Arch's advantages over Gentoo that I just could add the daemons to the DAEMONS array in rc.conf and choose the order myself. Odd, Arch uses SysV's init, but it certainly doesn't have a SysVinit init system. It's much closer to BSD, and a lot of the tools we use are custom. I know, and it's not necessarily bad. Others include OpenRC (used by Gentoo), Upstart (used by Ubuntu) and of course systemd (used by Fedora) I must admit that I didn't use OpenRC and Upstart, yet. I switch to Arch right before OpenRC was introduced in Gentoo. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 09:48:00PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I laugh away this trouble. Is there any information about the advantages of lib - usr/lib? anyone likes to answer this question? -ken
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:19:59AM +0800, Ken CC wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 09:48:00PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I laugh away this trouble. Is there any information about the advantages of lib - usr/lib? anyone likes to answer this question? -ken this was the thread on arch-dev-public talking about it http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-March/022625.html pgp9as1Rn1os5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:19:59AM +0800, Ken CC wrote: On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 09:48:00PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I laugh away this trouble. Is there any information about the advantages of lib - usr/lib? anyone likes to answer this question? -ken I beleive its a question of How is the filesytem structure and its distributed nature/capabilities relevant today i.e the need for /bin or /lib even.
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
I beleive its a question of How is the filesytem structure and its distributed nature/capabilities relevant today i.e the need for /bin or /lib even. If everything is to end up in /usr, then I'd argue that this makes /usr superfluous. If merging is to be done, then IMO things should be moved out of /usr, not moved in. pgpWRVjoqtovB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] Systemd +1
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Aitor Pazos m...@aitorpazos.es wrote: Hi everyone! My experience with systemd is a +1 as well. I use it in my laptop and it provides a nice experience for a desktop user. Starting services on demand, suspend support and all other features gives a nice experience for an end user. Maybe it's just my idea but I think the system is somewhat faster on the booting now. True for me as well. From grub to kdm in around 5sec. Nevertheless, this overall good opinion can't hide certain (or significant I might say) worries. Your system now relies in a bunch of binary code that might not be posible to workaround if something goes wrong. Scripts may not be as efficient but they are great in order to skip,modify or run them in case of emergency. Right, because /sbin/init isn't binary and none of the scripts relied on a interpreter that wasn't binary code? Cheers, Sander
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hi all,
On 07/25/2012 01:52 PM, David Benfell wrote:
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 11:57:02AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote:
Then create a service file in
/etc/systemd/system/davids-network.service
[unit] description= David's Network Setup Wants=
network.target Before= network.target
[service] Type = oneshot
ExecStart=/usr/local/bin/davids-network.sh
[instal] WantedBy= multi-user.target
Thanks! I will be testing this (and a few other things) just as
soon as I work my courage up to try a reboot. I know you're
supposed to test one thing at a time. This situation doesn't really
allow that. :-/
I can't get it to run. This is the current version of my network script:
#!/usr/bin/zsh
down=1
while [[ ${down} -ne 0 ]]
do
/usr/sbin/ip link eth0 up
down=${?}
sleep 1
done
/usr/sbin/ip link show
down=1
while [[ ${down} -ne 0 ]]
do
/usr/sbin/dhcpcd eth0
down=${?}
sleep 1
done
for i in 74.207.225.79/32 74.207.227.150/32 173.230.137.73/32
173.230.137.76/32
do
print ${i}
down=1
while [[ ${down} -ne 0 ]]
do
/usr/sbin/ip addr add ${i} dev eth0
down=${?}
sleep 1
done
done
print 2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:64e2/64
down=1
while [[ ${down} -ne 0 ]]
do
/usr/sbin/ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe96:64e2/64 dev eth0
down=${?}
sleep 1
done
for j in $(seq 0 1)
do
for i in $(seq 0 9) a b c d e f
do
print 2600:3c02::02:70${j}${i}/6
down=1
while [[ ${down} -ne 0 ]]
do
/usr/sbin/ip -6 addr add 2600:3c02::02:70${j}${i}/64
dev eth0
down=${?}
sleep 1
done
done
done
/usr/sbin/ip address show
#for i in 74.207.225.1 74.207.227.1 173.230.137.1
#do
#/usr/sbin/ip route add ${i}/24 via ${i}
#done
/usr/sbin/ip route add default via 173.230.137.1
/usr/sbin/ip -6 route add ::/0 via fe80::1
/usr/sbin/ip route show
I have no evidence that it actually runs. If nothing else, I would
expect a pause, while it works its way through all those sleep 1
statements even if everything succeeds on the first try. And my
understanding is that none of my network daemons should try to start
until the network is up (but they do, and many fail). Here is the
service file:
[Unit]
Description=My utterly non-standard network setup
Before=network.target
Wants=network.target
[Service]
Type=oneshot
ExecStart=/etc/rc.local-network
[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target
I have tried placing it in both /etc/systemd/system and
/etc/systemd/multi-user.target.wants (the latter being where a bunch
of other service files wound up). But every time, when I boot the
system and log into the console and try ip link show, it tells me
that eth0 is down.
- --
David Benfell
benf...@parts-unknown.org
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Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
If everything is to end up in /usr, then I'd argue that this makes /usr superfluous. If merging is to be done, then IMO things should be moved out of /usr, not moved in. well no the point is to have a single top-level directory for a single purpose. so distribution provided files will go to /usr, local-system configuration in /etc, /run is for runtime state, /var is the local-system state (the non-ephemeral state). Let me paste this here: » The merged directory /usr, containing almost the entire vendor-supplied operating system resources, offers us a number of new features regarding OS snapshotting and options for enterprise environments for network sharing or running multiple guests on one host. Most of this is much harder to accomplish, or even impossible, with the current arbitrary split of tools across multiple directories. With all vendor-supplied OS resources in a single directory /usr they may be shared atomically, snapshots of them become atomic, and the file system may be made read-only as a single unit. « Well, /opt would have to go soon, too -- дамјан
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
If everything is to end up in /usr, then I'd argue that this makes /usr superfluous. If merging is to be done, then IMO things should be moved out of /usr, not moved in. well no the point is to have a single top-level directory for a single purpose. so distribution provided files will go to /usr, local-system configuration in /etc, /run is for runtime state, /var is the local-system state (the non-ephemeral state). My variant is: /lib - /usr/lib /bin - /usr/bin /sbin - /usr/bin After that rename: /usr to /system /etc to /config /dev to /device Why not using clear (and not so short) names to indicate real purpose!
[arch-general] [Solved] Re: pacman and corrupt packages
On Wednesday 25 Jul 2012 11:15:48 AM Krzysztof Warzecha wrote: 2012/7/25 Ike Devolder ike.devol...@gmail.com: That is an option I have not yet tried but I just want to preserve the reproduction and debug the problem if there is any. Maybe this will help: cd /var/lib/pacman/pkg for pkg in *; do bsdtar -tf $pkg /dev/null || echo $pkg is broken; done This is strange, for me, pacman always showed which package is broken (and asked to delete it). Can you disable any ftp mirrors from your mirrorlist ([1])? Could you post your pacman.conf? [1] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1050214#p1050214 Ok, that did the trick. Last package I was getting error for was gcc-libs. So I removed it from cache. Then I searched the cache for broken packages, as suggested above and found icu package which wasn't completely download i.e. only a .xz.part file, not a .xz file. Removed that and pacman -Syu. It worked. I also have another i686 VM for $DAYJOB(I am not letting some closed source vpn solution take over my desktop network :P ) and it had the same problem. So I checked up the part files there and found qt-4.8.x...part. Removed it and it worked there as well. I am going to reproduce this problem next time by forcefully interrupting a download(if my ISP does not beat me to it already) and file a bug. Thanks for all the help :) -- Regards Shridhar
[arch-general] Was Re: [arch-dev-public] [mkinitcpio][RFC] a better fallback image?
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:17 AM, Dave Reisner d...@falconindy.com wrote: As an alternative/addition, which has also been brought up before, why don't we build in the most basic of modules? I'll bet we can cover at least 50% of the use cases by picking some choice pata/sata modules (e.g. ahci, ata_piix, pata_jmicron, sd_mod, ext4) and compiling them in staticly. It, of course, doesn't cover folks with non-trivial setups, but it provides a bulletproof bootstrap for a lot of people. I really think this would be a good idea. I wanted to make some additions to pierres pkgstats stuff so we could have an idea of how large percentage of our users would be covered by the modules you propose. I expect the vast majority would. Sure. I'd love to see the running kernel version and the first column of /proc/modules submitted with pkgstats. If we were to reset the global stats (or just reset the epoch) and make a concerted effort to have people submit (news post, social media, allan's blog, etc) I'll bet we could gather some good usage stats from -ARCH kernel consumers in a fairly short timeframe. Pierre: would something like the attached patch make sense for pkgstats? Cheers, Tom To all: Sorry to intrude but, after reading this I altered mkinitcpio.conf to use xz compression, used this module list MODULES=i2c_dev i2c_smbus i2c_algo_bit i2c_piix4 drm ttm drm_kms_helper radeon snd soundcore snd_timer snd_page_alloc snd_pcm snd_hwdep snd_hda_codec snd_hda_codec_realtek snd_hda_codec_hdmi snd_hda_intel pci_hotplug shpchp fuse drm i2c_dev i2c_piix4 i2c_smbus drm_kms_helper i2c_algo_bit radeon e1000 edac_core sp5100_tco powernow_k8 mperf processor psmouse evdev serio_raw button sunrpc nfs_acl lockd auth_rpcgss fscache nfs wmi usb_common usbcore ohci_hcd ehci_hcd usbhid hid scsi_mod libata libahci ahci sd_mod sr_mod cdrom pata_atiixp floppy fat vfat crc16 jbd2 mbcache ext4 which includes 97% of the modules I use ( lsmod ) and left autodect on. With a stock -ARCH 3.5 kernel the image is 9.2 Mb. Myra -- Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:30 AM, brainwor...@lavabit.com wrote: If everything is to end up in /usr, then I'd argue that this makes /usr superfluous. If merging is to be done, then IMO things should be moved out of /usr, not moved in. well no the point is to have a single top-level directory for a single purpose. so distribution provided files will go to /usr, local-system configuration in /etc, /run is for runtime state, /var is the local-system state (the non-ephemeral state). My variant is: /lib - /usr/lib /bin - /usr/bin /sbin - /usr/bin After that rename: /usr to /system /etc to /config /dev to /device Why not using clear (and not so short) names to indicate real purpose! Yes, why not just turn the device into android... renaming for the sake of renaming serves no purpose. There are real benefits to moving /lib and /bin into /usr, renaming folders does not provide any real benefits.
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 13:01 +0800, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:30 AM, brainwor...@lavabit.com wrote: If everything is to end up in /usr, then I'd argue that this makes /usr superfluous. If merging is to be done, then IMO things should be moved out of /usr, not moved in. well no the point is to have a single top-level directory for a single purpose. so distribution provided files will go to /usr, local-system configuration in /etc, /run is for runtime state, /var is the local-system state (the non-ephemeral state). My variant is: /lib - /usr/lib /bin - /usr/bin /sbin - /usr/bin After that rename: /usr to /system /etc to /config /dev to /device Why not using clear (and not so short) names to indicate real purpose! Yes, why not just turn the device into android... renaming for the sake of renaming serves no purpose. There are real benefits to moving /lib and /bin into /usr, renaming folders does not provide any real benefits. Today I hope we'll keep /usr, /etc, /dev etc., but when I started to use Linux /system, /config would be easier to understand. Well, between /dev and /device there's no difference, even for my completely broken English. However, I'm not sure if brainworker is serious or sarcastic ;p. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] lib - usr/lib
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Oon-Ee Ng ngoonee.t...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:30 AM, brainwor...@lavabit.com wrote: If everything is to end up in /usr, then I'd argue that this makes /usr superfluous. If merging is to be done, then IMO things should be moved out of /usr, not moved in. well no the point is to have a single top-level directory for a single purpose. so distribution provided files will go to /usr, local-system configuration in /etc, /run is for runtime state, /var is the local-system state (the non-ephemeral state). My variant is: /lib - /usr/lib /bin - /usr/bin /sbin - /usr/bin After that rename: /usr to /system /etc to /config /dev to /device Why not using clear (and not so short) names to indicate real purpose! Yes, why not just turn the device into android... renaming for the sake of renaming serves no purpose. There are real benefits to moving /lib and /bin into /usr, renaming folders does not provide any real benefits. Actually, having more descriptive names would ease the burden on the new users... Leading to less confusion and less mailing list posts regarding where they need to look for config files. Of course, this will also mean a lot of nitpicking regarding what the symlinks should be named... M
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, Regrettably, due to some overzealous spam filtering in my Thunderbird configuration and elsewhere, I'm just finding C. Anthony Risinger's suggestion: [Unit] Description=[u] Static Interface [%I] StopWhenUnneeded=true Wants=network.target Before=network.target BindTo=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device After=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device After=basic.target [Service] Type=oneshot TimeoutSec=0 Restart=always RestartSec=30 RemainAfterExit=yes ExecStart=-/usr/sbin/ip addr add 10.50.250.1/24 dev %I ExecStart=/usr/sbin/ip link set %I up [Install] Alias=sys-subsystem-net-devices-lan0.device.wants/u.net.static at lan0.service I see that %I is supposed to stand for eth0; how do I connect this with eth0? - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQENM7AAoJELT202JKF+xpJ+cP/0EroWugjfCcJcWKjly7aDP3 hbje9h+o1uuuCz/kzQ4A+vws7B/L1/4vTqq3RIgvwyw70vBK+Q0/qwnpFm0GYrgO IZrxYogGGTOSLfy5Cg4uOW5HxOeP94h9LAjo8uQ3UcFzp7mXV6BX1M4XVnUuDE4h SPI/grMrRNvvcm1VTyS1/nAoUs2zaAcgCW23+4HiuiNwU+Rqe38Quy9ywtQleBRK ntsrRa/8QF20fy8Z0TJG7WkRoxOHCUI4Vgpqrk5P1bsT7Hh4k1sjAzUOfDOU+Tok 0W8DPw+ZAb1XvLmPX0n+Z4Pp8sVTMLjt91HfbPalhcRYQgLFI2Wbe6DEPgHOfHH2 vG7m6qnAiJP8u1EHloy/56vO6s3eXd7o1iwHX2rdDgrZsS6fZrdEpL3GT3tUxVC/ hNrtkGi3WOrfu+tgkriTX4kO0BMHwbeWDYUXQZS13ngERSGXTfUKL7pvNzfCaKbT VfTaWzXrtLVhnxQyldxwCLGZhgiPSxI6wxDU61Yo6YDGwFfALCKUvfYa2jIWs87K dXCS1w/aKhSMxUWx9GIscZDXRP5hJL+QPiTXa5vwUAz2qhfsm0HSF7c6+wGRm73X m891iOP7UkvWX+QLpKt+v3dHPauzMH2meT1xlpifIs3gQwN2GHoi0pKx55RyF6lq xiJBWmkEuzBYFgN7Mhei =nT0P -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] Systemd +1
Right, because /sbin/init isn't binary and none of the scripts relied on a interpreter that wasn't binary code? They are indeed, but it's a matter of size. The size of /sbin/init is 40.592B and /usr/lib/systemd/systemd 866.576B, which is a huge difference. Init responsabilities are much more specific than systemd's and the binary doesn't change much. All systemd's features implies it will be updated frequently and every change introduces some kind of risk. Interpreters are binaries as well, but if one fail you might use another one, if systemd fails you might not be able to get even a rescue console.
Re: [arch-general] Systemd +1
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Aitor Pazos m...@aitorpazos.es wrote: Right, because /sbin/init isn't binary and none of the scripts relied on a interpreter that wasn't binary code? They are indeed, but it's a matter of size. The size of /sbin/init is 40.592B and /usr/lib/systemd/systemd 866.576B, which is a huge difference. Init responsabilities are much more specific than systemd's and the binary doesn't change much. All systemd's features implies it will be updated frequently and every change introduces some kind of risk. Interpreters are binaries as well, but if one fail you might use another one, if systemd fails you might not be able to get even a rescue console. i think the likelihood of this is extremely low -- if your binary is so borked it can't run at all, methinks none of your binaries will run (since you have probably messed up the dynamic linker or something). not really an issue IMO, and comparing two images on size alone garners no real information. ultimately, you can always just bypass systemd with `init=/bin/bash` or, if dynamic libs were fuxxed, `init=/bin/busybox`, or even `init=/usr/lib/initcpio/busybox` ... which will get you a root shell. ... and if you can't get that far then you need a rescue image anyway, and systemd coundn't have prevented that. -- C Anthony
Re: [arch-general] systemd network configuration
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 12:18 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: [Install] Alias=sys-subsystem-net-devices-lan0.device.wants/u.net.static at lan0.service I see that %I is supposed to stand for eth0; how do I connect this with eth0? i modified it for you here: http://dpaste.com/775539/plain/ == # network interfaces bindings [Unit] Description=Static Interface [%I] StopWhenUnneeded=true Wants=network.target Before=network.target BindTo=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device After=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device After=basic.target [Service] Type=oneshot TimeoutSec=0 Restart=always RestartSec=30 RemainAfterExit=yes ExecStart=-/usr/sbin/ip addr add 10.50.250.1/24 dev %I ExecStart=/usr/sbin/ip link set %I up [Install] Alias=sys-subsystem-net-devices-eth0.device.wants/net.static@eth0.service == ... then: # wget -O /etc/systemd/system/net.static@.service http://dpaste.com/775539/plain/ modify the ExecStart as appropriate! # systemctl daemon-reload # systemctl enable net.static@eth0.service [maybe, first time only] # systemctl start net.static@eth0.service ... and now whatever you put in the ExecStart(s) will execute every time the device appears. -- C Anthony
