Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
I am also of opinion that Arch should be neutral and should not promote (or demote) what is not going to help in Arch development. There are contributors from all over the world who may or may not be of the same opinion as moderators or others. This is not about Reddit and not about LGBT rights either. It is about avoiding unnecessary conflicts. We should stick to Arch only and no other topics should be discussed or debated. For example, just this Reddit logo thing, has triggered so many e-mails, which in noway is going to be of any help for Arch development. Regards Amish. On 02/06/20 10:23 am, Olivier Langlois wrote: The rainbow is the symbol of the universal religion that globalists wants to impose on all nations. I have seen it all over the place during the Covid lockdown and I have made a very negative association to it due to the circumstances. Yes it is political. It is associated with a philosophy and an ideology that I disagree with. I am offended by the fact that the ideology behind the symbol is promoted in an organization that should otherwise be strictly technical. Sexual orientation should be a personal and private choice. I don't want to know what are the Arch forums admins orientation is when I come to the forum to discuss Linux matters. IMO, ArchLinux websites and forums should be kept neutral as it isn't the place to push that type of values. https://thenationalpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/DragQueenStoryHourScreenshot-1200x500.jpg Can you see that this type of event cannot be in line with the values of many ArchLinux users? My intent here is to signify my opinion on the topic. I don't want to argue more on it but I guess it is safe to assume that many users share the same feelings on the issue. Please keep ArchLinux apolitical. Thank you to have read my grievance On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 04:19 +0200, Rasmus Liland via arch-general wrote: On 2020-06-01 21:06 -0300, riveravaldez wrote: Equality and freedom of genre/sex decisions is not politics, it's just basic human rights. Human rights is also a very fragile political construct invented by the United Nations perhaps only achievable under certain conditions. Perhaps it might not work so well/make sense out in a desert ruled by complex clan structures and religion for thousands of years.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
The rainbow is the symbol of the universal religion that globalists wants to impose on all nations. I have seen it all over the place during the Covid lockdown and I have made a very negative association to it due to the circumstances. Yes it is political. It is associated with a philosophy and an ideology that I disagree with. I am offended by the fact that the ideology behind the symbol is promoted in an organization that should otherwise be strictly technical. Sexual orientation should be a personal and private choice. I don't want to know what are the Arch forums admins orientation is when I come to the forum to discuss Linux matters. IMO, ArchLinux websites and forums should be kept neutral as it isn't the place to push that type of values. https://thenationalpulse.com/wp-content/uploads/DragQueenStoryHourScreenshot-1200x500.jpg Can you see that this type of event cannot be in line with the values of many ArchLinux users? My intent here is to signify my opinion on the topic. I don't want to argue more on it but I guess it is safe to assume that many users share the same feelings on the issue. Please keep ArchLinux apolitical. Thank you to have read my grievance On Tue, 2020-06-02 at 04:19 +0200, Rasmus Liland via arch-general wrote: > On 2020-06-01 21:06 -0300, riveravaldez wrote: > > Equality and freedom of genre/sex decisions > > is not politics, it's just basic human > > rights. > > Human rights is also a very fragile political > construct invented by the United Nations > perhaps only achievable under certain > conditions. Perhaps it might not work so > well/make sense out in a desert ruled by > complex clan structures and religion for > thousands of years.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 06/01/2020 07:57 PM, Kevin Dodd via arch-general wrote: > The FOSS movement was called a "movement" for a reason. It was always about > giving power to the people who would otherwise have none, and getting the > boots of the powerful off of their backs. Pride month fits that ethos > perfectly. > > If you don't want to see the logo, you can either use custom CSS or simply > ignore it. This is such a non-problem. I'm sorry Kevin, You misinterpreted my reply. I know FOSS well, from before the time of NCSA Mosaic. The intent was, regardless of what is depicted, it doesn't impact adversely impact another. I'm more than happy to see pride month celebrated or supported and whether Arch chooses to participate or not isn't something I see as political. (thus the "It isn't hurting me [or anyone else] at all" comment) So I apologize if the intent you gleaned differed from that intended conveyed. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 06/01/2020 07:57 PM, Kevin Dodd via arch-general wrote: > The FOSS movement was called a "movement" for a reason. It was always about > giving power to the people who would otherwise have none, and getting the > boots of the powerful off of their backs. Pride month fits that ethos > perfectly. > > If you don't want to see the logo, you can either use custom CSS or simply > ignore it. This is such a non-problem. I'm sorry Kevin, You misinterpreted my replay. I know FOSS well, from before the time of NCSA Mosaic. The intent was, regardless of what is depicted, it doesn't impact adversely impact another. I'm more than happy to see pride month celebrated or supported and whether Arch chooses to participate or not isn't something I see as political. (thus the "It isn't hurting me [or anyone else] at all" comment) So I apologize if the intent you gleaned differed from that intended conveyed. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 2020-06-01 21:06 -0300, riveravaldez wrote: > Equality and freedom of genre/sex decisions > is not politics, it's just basic human > rights. Human rights is also a very fragile political construct invented by the United Nations perhaps only achievable under certain conditions. Perhaps it might not work so well/make sense out in a desert ruled by complex clan structures and religion for thousands of years. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On Tue, 2 Jun 2020 01:31:24 +, Kyle via arch-general wrote: >I ask about the website because I'm visually impaired, using the Orca >screen reader, so am unable to see for myself what if anything was >done to the logo that appears on the Arch website. The logos on https://www.archlinux.org/ https://aur.archlinux.org/ https://bugs.archlinux.org/ https://wiki.archlinux.org/ contain only one colour of the rainbow ;). The same applies at least to the following German sites, too. https://www.archlinux.de/ https://wiki.archlinux.de/title/Hauptseite
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On June 2, 2020 1:31:24 AM UTC, Kyle via arch-general wrote: >Well, the way I see it, they can keep the rainbow on their logo all >year >long. After all, I see the rainbow as a symbol of its original meaning, > >that God set His bow in the cloud as a covenant between Him and us that > >He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. > > >That said, a religious symbol is also not very appropriate for a >computer operating system, unless its developers are known to profess a > >certain faith. But then again, was the official Arch logo changed on >the >website, or was this only a Reddit thing? If Reddit, then pretty much >anything goes. But whether it's a political symbol or a religious one, >it's probably not appropriate on the official website. I ask about the >website because I'm visually impaired, using the Orca screen reader, so > >am unable to see for myself what if anything was done to the logo that >appears on the Arch website. > >~Kyle After looking into it, it appears only the archlinux subreddit has that rainbow arch logo, the official website and wiki don't, and as Eli mentioned, the reddit isn't official, so I'll retract what I said and just say: don't use reddit. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
Well, the way I see it, they can keep the rainbow on their logo all year long. After all, I see the rainbow as a symbol of its original meaning, that God set His bow in the cloud as a covenant between Him and us that He would never again destroy the earth with a flood. That said, a religious symbol is also not very appropriate for a computer operating system, unless its developers are known to profess a certain faith. But then again, was the official Arch logo changed on the website, or was this only a Reddit thing? If Reddit, then pretty much anything goes. But whether it's a political symbol or a religious one, it's probably not appropriate on the official website. I ask about the website because I'm visually impaired, using the Orca screen reader, so am unable to see for myself what if anything was done to the logo that appears on the Arch website. ~Kyle
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
The FOSS movement was called a "movement" for a reason. It was always about giving power to the people who would otherwise have none, and getting the boots of the powerful off of their backs. Pride month fits that ethos perfectly. If you don't want to see the logo, you can either use custom CSS or simply ignore it. This is such a non-problem. On 6/1/20 8:30 PM, David C. Rankin wrote: On 06/01/2020 06:18 PM, Amir Fletcher via arch-general wrote: Arch Linux is a fantastic distribution. It should remain exactly that: a computer operating system for technical users. Politics should not be part of the project. Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask for this. Many of us don't care about the views of the developers or moderators as long as we continue to enjoy Arch. When this was brought up, the moderator silenced the criticism and deleted the thread. https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/gutcxb/is_arch_gay/ https://archive.is/Y9Ni1 Just ignore it. If it makes some feel better, so be it. It isn't hurting me at all... and whatever the intent, it doesn't have a deleterious effect on Arch. Rainbows, ponies, penguins, geckos, hats, all just nice decorations.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
Does Reddit arch celebrate Christmas? I don’t see how a rainbow would imply it’s relevant to the community regardless. It’s not forcing anything on anyone. Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 8:17 PM, LuKaRo wrote: > On 02.06.20 01:18, Amir Fletcher via arch-general wrote: >> Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride >> month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask >> for this. Many of us don't care about the views of the developers or >> moderators as long as we continue to enjoy Arch. > > I can understand both points. I think that "pride month", or LGBTQ+ in > general, is something that is worth supporting. However, I think a > project should not claim support of any political or societal topic if > the project in fact does not have the support for such a decision by > it's members. Otherwise, such a statement is completely worthless. What > does it mean to say "Arch supports pride month" if we don't even know if > Arch users do or don't support this agenda? > > Therefore, I think that such a claim requires at least a minimum amount > of discussion. > >> When this was brought up, the moderator silenced the criticism and deleted >> the thread. > > And if this discussion didn't happen prior to publishing the claim, it > should be at least allowed afterwards (and not banned by deleting a > corresponding thread). > > Banning or deleting discussions on valid topics in a community project > is a sign of bad leadership in general. As a community project should be > democratic, there should be no need for doing so at all. Just my 2 cents. > >> This is where the problem begins. If we cannot even discuss disagreement >> with views being forced on us, what's left? Please moderators and >> developers, reconsider forcing your views on us and not even allowing >> discussion about it. We do not all share your views, but we can get along if >> everyone is left to their own devices. > I totally agree to that. Especially if we consider that supporting > something like a "pride month" is a privilege that not everyone on this > world comes to enjoy. We shouldn't forget that there are lots of > countries in the world were free speech is only a phrase and not practice.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 6/1/20 6:43 PM, Ricardo Band wrote: > On June 1, 2020 11:18:50 PM UTC, Amir Fletcher via arch-general > wrote: >> Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride >> month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask >> for this. > I'm sorry but why do you care about the damn logo? And since when has the > sexual identity anything to do with politics? > It's a rainbow, not a swastika. Agreed. It's not like people are forced to use the logo to use Arch Linux. If you don't like it, then just don't sit around staring at it. Also, in the sort of places that would cause serious harm for someone to support LGBT+ rights Arch already has a number of packages that they would already not want people to use. Just saying. Yaro signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 06/01/2020 06:18 PM, Amir Fletcher via arch-general wrote: > Arch Linux is a fantastic distribution. It should remain exactly that: a > computer operating system for technical users. Politics should not be part > of the project. > > Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride > month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask > for this. Many of us don't care about the views of the developers or > moderators as long as we continue to enjoy Arch. > > When this was brought up, the moderator silenced the criticism and deleted > the thread. > > https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/gutcxb/is_arch_gay/ > > https://archive.is/Y9Ni1 Just ignore it. If it makes some feel better, so be it. It isn't hurting me at all... and whatever the intent, it doesn't have a deleterious effect on Arch. Rainbows, ponies, penguins, geckos, hats, all just nice decorations. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
I think one can just ignore the "systemd month" and all that accompanies it. Or stop visiting Reddit. However yeah, it's a bit sad that someone would think of changing a logo from something that unites different people to something that divides them and then censor opinions about it being wrong.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 02.06.20 01:18, Amir Fletcher via arch-general wrote: Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask for this. Many of us don't care about the views of the developers or moderators as long as we continue to enjoy Arch. I can understand both points. I think that "pride month", or LGBTQ+ in general, is something that is worth supporting. However, I think a project should not claim support of any political or societal topic if the project in fact does not have the support for such a decision by it's members. Otherwise, such a statement is completely worthless. What does it mean to say "Arch supports pride month" if we don't even know if Arch users do or don't support this agenda? Therefore, I think that such a claim requires at least a minimum amount of discussion. When this was brought up, the moderator silenced the criticism and deleted the thread. And if this discussion didn't happen prior to publishing the claim, it should be at least allowed afterwards (and not banned by deleting a corresponding thread). Banning or deleting discussions on valid topics in a community project is a sign of bad leadership in general. As a community project should be democratic, there should be no need for doing so at all. Just my 2 cents. This is where the problem begins. If we cannot even discuss disagreement with views being forced on us, what's left? Please moderators and developers, reconsider forcing your views on us and not even allowing discussion about it. We do not all share your views, but we can get along if everyone is left to their own devices. I totally agree to that. Especially if we consider that supporting something like a "pride month" is a privilege that not everyone on this world comes to enjoy. We shouldn't forget that there are lots of countries in the world were free speech is only a phrase and not practice.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On 6/1/20 7:42 PM, Kusoneko wrote:
> I agree with Amir on this. This is an operating system, supposedly
> free from "corporate actions", where for PR reasons a company would
> "support" pride months and other political events. The developers,
> maintainers, moderators and trusted users can support whatever
> politics they want, as publicly as they want, but the OS itself and
> all official channels for the OS should remain free from political
> statements, agendas and actions.
Reddit is not an official channel for the OS, please discuss this with
the unaffiliated entities in charge of said unaffiliated community.
(Also reddit sucks and always has, but that's because it's a meme-ridden
pit of people doing strange things, engaging in offtopic
stream-of-consciousness randomness, and unmoderated help vampires. Also
it implements the dreaded "like"/"upvoting" methodology of community
interaction. Need I say more?)
Problem solved. Let's dance to celebrate.
^('-')^ ^('-')^ v('-')v v('-')v <('-'<) (>'-')> <('-'<) (>'-')> B A
--
Eli Schwartz
Bug Wrangler and Trusted User
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Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On Mon, 01 Jun 2020 23:43:10 +, Ricardo Band wrote: >It's a rainbow, not a swastika. +1 In what colour should we paint the bike shed? I seriously doubt that "outside of western countries most countries are strictly against" rainbow coloured bike sheds or logos. Those "ominous" countries probably are aware that Arch repositories provide "conspirative" packages such as https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/x86_64/gnupg/ https://www.archlinux.org/packages/community/x86_64/tor/ .
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
Equality and freedom of genre/sex decisions is not politics, it's just basic human rights. Or, it is politics, and then everything is politics. Also, to look in other direction and ignore social issues is also a political stance, and the free software is extremely sociopolitical... Anyway. Politics seem unavoidable, specially in this times, so, as far as it doesn't become spam, don't see a way to make it disappear. Just try to cope with it and go forward. Best regards. *sorry for TP, but this was not a response to nothing in specific On 6/1/20, Ricardo Band wrote: > On June 1, 2020 11:18:50 PM UTC, Amir Fletcher via arch-general > wrote: >>Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride >> month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask >> for this. > I'm sorry but why do you care about the damn logo? And since when has the > sexual identity anything to do with politics? > It's a rainbow, not a swastika. > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On June 1, 2020 11:18:50 PM UTC, Amir Fletcher via arch-general wrote: >Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride >month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask for >this. I'm sorry but why do you care about the damn logo? And since when has the sexual identity anything to do with politics? It's a rainbow, not a swastika. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
On June 1, 2020 11:18:50 PM UTC, Amir Fletcher via arch-general wrote: >Arch Linux is a fantastic distribution. It should remain exactly that: >a computer operating system for technical users. Politics should not be >part of the project. > >Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for >"pride month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who >did not ask for this. Many of us don't care about the views of the >developers or moderators as long as we continue to enjoy Arch. > >When this was brought up, the moderator silenced the criticism and >deleted the thread. > >https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/gutcxb/is_arch_gay/ > >https://archive.is/Y9Ni1 > >This is where the problem begins. If we cannot even discuss >disagreement with views being forced on us, what's left? Please >moderators and developers, reconsider forcing your views on us and not >even allowing discussion about it. We do not all share your views, but >we can get along if everyone is left to their own devices. > >This kind of topic should not even need to be brought up. It's very >disheartening to see whoever moderates that reddit doing this. We just >want to use Arch. In many cultures outside of Europe or the US, this is >not welcome at all. Even in those countries, not everyone wants an >agenda shoved into their face. I agree with Amir on this. This is an operating system, supposedly free from "corporate actions", where for PR reasons a company would "support" pride months and other political events. The developers, maintainers, moderators and trusted users can support whatever politics they want, as publicly as they want, but the OS itself and all official channels for the OS should remain free from political statements, agendas and actions. Similarly, censorship of dissenting opinions is not a good look for any community such as Arch. As Amir stated above, outside of western countries most countries are strictly against LGBT+ stuff, to the point where being a part of it is a death sentence, and supporting it publicly can be dangerous. Forcing any sort of political agenda like this onto an OS carries danger for it's users located in such countries. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[arch-general] Arch should be apolitical
Arch Linux is a fantastic distribution. It should remain exactly that: a computer operating system for technical users. Politics should not be part of the project. Recently, the Arch reddit logo was changed to a rainbow. This is for "pride month". It is forcing a political view on all of the users who did not ask for this. Many of us don't care about the views of the developers or moderators as long as we continue to enjoy Arch. When this was brought up, the moderator silenced the criticism and deleted the thread. https://old.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/gutcxb/is_arch_gay/ https://archive.is/Y9Ni1 This is where the problem begins. If we cannot even discuss disagreement with views being forced on us, what's left? Please moderators and developers, reconsider forcing your views on us and not even allowing discussion about it. We do not all share your views, but we can get along if everyone is left to their own devices. This kind of topic should not even need to be brought up. It's very disheartening to see whoever moderates that reddit doing this. We just want to use Arch. In many cultures outside of Europe or the US, this is not welcome at all. Even in those countries, not everyone wants an agenda shoved into their face.
