Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 02:26:39 +0100 Xavier shinin...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Aaron Griffin aaronmgrif...@gmail.com wrote: Oh shit, seriously? Looks like I'll have to rebuild this as well. Serious question: does ANYONE have a keyboard that didn't automatically work before this debacle? External keyboard always Just Worked without needing to do anything. The same with mice if I used /dev/input/mice. Sure, I didn't have a crazy Xtreme Gaming Mouse 9000 or anything, but it never once failed for me under ordinary usage... I just noticed there is a decent section on the wiki about this subject : http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xorg_input_hotplugging#Rationale Digging a bit more, I also found a similar page on debian wiki which might be even more interesting : http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/InputHotplugGuide The fun part is that the end of the article actually gives a reference to arch wiki page. Debian also have a bunch of we do not need hal whiners, which lead to a bug report. And for example this answer from a developer is also informative : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=515214#91 I have yet to see someone serious and informed saying input hotplug sucks. All xorg developers I have seen (on the web : ML, blogs, irc, ...) seem to agree this new infrastructure is much better. Anyway hal is dead : http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2009/Notes?highlight=%28hal%29|%28udev%29#head-754e4968dd043dcf2166dff61afd7d0d06c5 But since that functionality is definitely needed, it will have to be replaced.. somehow. Isn't that somehow going to be device-kit? If so, we won't get rid of dbus.
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 16:40 +0100, hollun...@gmx.at wrote: On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 02:26:39 +0100 Xavier shinin...@gmail.com wrote: Anyway hal is dead : http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2009/Notes?highlight=%28hal%29|%28udev%29#head-754e4968dd043dcf2166dff61afd7d0d06c5 But since that functionality is definitely needed, it will have to be replaced.. somehow. Isn't that somehow going to be device-kit? If so, we won't get rid of dbus. Is that really a goal? Seems like the holy grail sometimes, getting rid of dbus.
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:58:20 +0100 Arvid Picciani a...@exys.org wrote: Jan de Groot wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 19:45 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: nope. The hal crap has been added to X a while ago as optional (meaning X would just freeze without it, but at least pretend to start) , but the forced dependency is new (as in, it doesnt start when compiled with hal, but no hal present). The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf without having to rebuild xorg without --enable-config-hal Looks like nobody ever reads documentation. Read the freaking wiki link posted when upgrading/installing xorg-server and you'll know you can disable hal interaction from xorg.conf with one single option. Is it that hard? hah there he is seeking the frontal battle. counter point: Looks like no one ever reads mails completely before assuming the other side is a complete moron. Where did i say i have a problem related to that upgrade? In fact, let me requote that to prove you didnt read it. On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 19:45 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf Jan de Groot wrote: and you'll know you can disable hal interaction from xorg.conf with one single option. Thanks for being so smart and education me though! You know, it's really hard to take you seriously (or not being angry at you) when you keep insulting Arch developers like this, especially when one considered that all of your demands, your complains, is really nothing new. Arch is not minimalist enough? Arch is no longer being KISS? These are all ages-old complains that have been discussed and debunked to death a lot of time before. The only _new_ things about your... rant are the unprecedented rudeness and the grudge that you've seem to harbor against some of the devs. Seriously, no one from the dev team should have to put up this...
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 12:43 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: obviously i do NOT want to remove xorg-server. i don't need evdev, but: :: xorg-server: requires xf86-input-evdev=2.2.5 so no removing it either. the mirror i'm using has been updated today (December 1th), and i'm not using testing. mirrors package versions: xorg-server 1.7.2-2 xf86-input-evdev 2.3.1-1 thanks What about your own package versions (the ones currently installed)?
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On 12/01/2009 01:43 PM, Arvid Picciani wrote: obviously i do NOT want to remove xorg-server. i don't need evdev, but: :: xorg-server: requires xf86-input-evdev=2.2.5 so no removing it either. the mirror i'm using has been updated today (December 1th), and i'm not using testing. mirrors package versions: xorg-server 1.7.2-2 xf86-input-evdev 2.3.1-1 thanks why you want to remove evdev? if you use autodetecting thing from xorg you need that. in other case just install xf86-input-keyboard and xf86-input-mouse.
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
Ng Oon-Ee wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 12:43 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: obviously i do NOT want to remove xorg-server. i don't need evdev, but: :: xorg-server: requires xf86-input-evdev=2.2.5 so no removing it either. the mirror i'm using has been updated today (December 1th), and i'm not using testing. mirrors package versions: xorg-server 1.7.2-2 xf86-input-evdev 2.3.1-1 thanks What about your own package versions (the ones currently installed)? xorg-server: 1.6.3.901-1 xf86-input-evdev : 2.2.5-something on irc the idea came up that the local versions conflict with the repo versions, hence pacman is confused about the dependencies. i removed evdev, and all the other drivers localy. Which turned out to be a very bad idea. Now i'm left with a half dead system. warning: cannot resolve hal=0.5.13, a dependency of xorg-server THAT is the actual problem. It now depends on HAL, which doesn't work. Anyone got a hack available for this? Patch? Maybe it's just a configure option. I'll have to build my own xorg anyway then i guess. *sigh* archlinux vs lfs 0:1 -- Arvid Asgaard Technologies
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
Arvid Picciani wrote: warning: cannot resolve hal=0.5.13, a dependency of xorg-server never mind my bitching. rebuilding xorg-server without hal was a matter of abs,edit,makepkg 3 arch -- Arvid Asgaard Technologies
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
2009/12/1 Arvid Picciani a...@exys.org: Arvid Picciani wrote: warning: cannot resolve hal=0.5.13, a dependency of xorg-server never mind my bitching. rebuilding xorg-server without hal was a matter of abs,edit,makepkg 3 arch Are you using -Syu or are you trying to just randomly -S things? Normally a full upgrade should not have conflicts to this degree.
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
Aaron Griffin wrote: On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Daenyth Blank daenyth+a...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/1 Arvid Picciani a...@exys.org: Arvid Picciani wrote: warning: cannot resolve hal=0.5.13, a dependency of xorg-server never mind my bitching. rebuilding xorg-server without hal was a matter of abs,edit,makepkg 3 arch Are you using -Syu or are you trying to just randomly -S things? Normally a full upgrade should not have conflicts to this degree. -Syu Unless his system is fairly old and he hasn't updated in a while. xorg-server depending on hal happened a fairly long time ago, didn't it? nope. The hal crap has been added to X a while ago as optional (meaning X would just freeze without it, but at least pretend to start) , but the forced dependency is new (as in, it doesnt start when compiled with hal, but no hal present). The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf without having to rebuild xorg without --enable-config-hal I guess the new way is better, since it seperates the ubuntu aproach from power user systems in a clean way. If my source is reliable (some dude on irc), X.org will continue to support both versions and seperate them clearly, maybe even with modules. That'd be _nice_! -- Arvid Asgaard Technologies
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Arvid Picciani a...@exys.org wrote: Aaron Griffin wrote: On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Daenyth Blank daenyth+a...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/1 Arvid Picciani a...@exys.org: Arvid Picciani wrote: warning: cannot resolve hal=0.5.13, a dependency of xorg-server never mind my bitching. rebuilding xorg-server without hal was a matter of abs,edit,makepkg 3 arch Are you using -Syu or are you trying to just randomly -S things? Normally a full upgrade should not have conflicts to this degree. -Syu Unless his system is fairly old and he hasn't updated in a while. xorg-server depending on hal happened a fairly long time ago, didn't it? nope. The hal crap has been added to X a while ago as optional (meaning X would just freeze without it, but at least pretend to start) , but the forced dependency is new (as in, it doesnt start when compiled with hal, but no hal present). The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf without having to rebuild xorg without --enable-config-hal Oh shit, seriously? Looks like I'll have to rebuild this as well. Serious question: does ANYONE have a keyboard that didn't automatically work before this debacle? External keyboard always Just Worked without needing to do anything. The same with mice if I used /dev/input/mice. Sure, I didn't have a crazy Xtreme Gaming Mouse 9000 or anything, but it never once failed for me under ordinary usage... I guess the new way is better, since it seperates the ubuntu aproach from power user systems in a clean way. If my source is reliable (some dude on irc), X.org will continue to support both versions and seperate them clearly, maybe even with modules. That'd be _nice_! Oh a module would be wonderful
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
Aaron, Oh shit, seriously? Looks like I'll have to rebuild this as well. It's your distro. I fail to see the whole reason why you have always been in support of KISS and the arch way, but never seem to take action to enforce it. Maybe it's something social, which i tend to be ignorant towards. Serious question: does ANYONE have a keyboard that didn't automatically work before this debacle? External keyboard always Just Worked without needing to do anything. The same with mice if I used /dev/input/mice. Sure, I didn't have a crazy Xtreme Gaming Mouse 9000 or anything, but it never once failed for me under ordinary usage... Xorg had and still has decent hardware detection. I do have crazy gaming hardware and it isn't correctly detected on ubuntu while it works just fine here on my customized arch without hal ever since X.org. Without any xorg.conf i might add. I'm not going to go as far as claiming the hal/dbus thing is social engineering, but it sure as hell smells like it. However, some chatter on their mailing list suggests it actually has a positive effect for some users, while the negative effect remains undiscovered by the (majority of gnu/linux)~(ubuntu) users. I guess the new way is better, since it seperates the ubuntu aproach from power user systems in a clean way. If my source is reliable (some dude on irc), X.org will continue to support both versions and seperate them clearly, maybe even with modules. That'd be _nice_! Oh a module would be wonderful There is hope. Mostly due to the fact that X is used on embedded systems. Beware though, that argument is fading, as embedded devices get more powerful and users expectations shift from usable to shiny. Even your toaster is going to run kde in the long run. It won't do toasts anymore, but at least it has the latest fashionable widgets. The solution to this political problem is indeed political. Some people can't be educated at all, but the average arch user proves to be capable of learning the basic unix, kiss, and arch philosophies. Back to the point. As long as the X.org upstream is reminded, that the arch/unix/kiss user base is still worth supporting, i'm positive they will continue to support it. In fact we're probably the reason they fixed xft? No one else is using it. I find it hard to argue about the mentioned user base, since its supposed favorite distro archlinux, does in fact add downstream patches to ADD the very features i am opposing. I assume, for now, removing those again via abs is acceptable for most power users, including me and you, until someone finally forks arch. You'd be perfectly suited to throw the first stone, Aaron. -- Arvid Asgaard Technologies
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Arvid Picciani a...@exys.org wrote: Aaron, Oh shit, seriously? Looks like I'll have to rebuild this as well. It's your distro. I fail to see the whole reason why you have always been in support of KISS and the arch way, but never seem to take action to enforce it. Maybe it's something social, which i tend to be ignorant towards. Well, I'm not an Xorg authority, nor am I the packager of it. I imagine removing this will have a detrimental effect to all those people using the large monolithic desktop environments, but cannot make a factual claim either way. The point is, just because *I* prefer something one way doesn't mean it's a good decision at the distro level. Jan has always done a good job in the past of keeping Xorg as impartial as possible without breaking things, and I'm assuming he did the same here. I find it hard to argue about the mentioned user base, since its supposed favorite distro archlinux, does in fact add downstream patches to ADD the very features i am opposing. I assume, for now, removing those again via abs is acceptable for most power users, including me and you, until someone finally forks arch. You'd be perfectly suited to throw the first stone, Aaron. I'm confused by this. It seems rather standoffish and I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. As I alluded to early, I do not watch each and every single package change that is made. No one has the time for that. That is why we have maintainers we can generally trust about these decisions. Which package has patches to add these features? Looking at xorg-server, I only see one extraneous patch that simple replaces the default grey stipple pattern with black. The rest seem (at a glance) to fix real bugs
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 19:45 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: nope. The hal crap has been added to X a while ago as optional (meaning X would just freeze without it, but at least pretend to start) , but the forced dependency is new (as in, it doesnt start when compiled with hal, but no hal present). The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf without having to rebuild xorg without --enable-config-hal Looks like nobody ever reads documentation. Read the freaking wiki link posted when upgrading/installing xorg-server and you'll know you can disable hal interaction from xorg.conf with one single option. Is it that hard?
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
Jan de Groot wrote: On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 19:45 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: nope. The hal crap has been added to X a while ago as optional (meaning X would just freeze without it, but at least pretend to start) , but the forced dependency is new (as in, it doesnt start when compiled with hal, but no hal present). The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf without having to rebuild xorg without --enable-config-hal Looks like nobody ever reads documentation. Read the freaking wiki link posted when upgrading/installing xorg-server and you'll know you can disable hal interaction from xorg.conf with one single option. Is it that hard? hah there he is seeking the frontal battle. counter point: Looks like no one ever reads mails completely before assuming the other side is a complete moron. Where did i say i have a problem related to that upgrade? In fact, let me requote that to prove you didnt read it. On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 19:45 +0100, Arvid Picciani wrote: The difference is that previously you could get get away with a hack in xorg.conf Jan de Groot wrote: and you'll know you can disable hal interaction from xorg.conf with one single option. Thanks for being so smart and education me though! -- Arvid Asgaard Technologies
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Aaron Griffin aaronmgrif...@gmail.com wrote: Oh shit, seriously? Looks like I'll have to rebuild this as well. Serious question: does ANYONE have a keyboard that didn't automatically work before this debacle? External keyboard always Just Worked without needing to do anything. The same with mice if I used /dev/input/mice. Sure, I didn't have a crazy Xtreme Gaming Mouse 9000 or anything, but it never once failed for me under ordinary usage... I just noticed there is a decent section on the wiki about this subject : http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xorg_input_hotplugging#Rationale Digging a bit more, I also found a similar page on debian wiki which might be even more interesting : http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/InputHotplugGuide The fun part is that the end of the article actually gives a reference to arch wiki page. Debian also have a bunch of we do not need hal whiners, which lead to a bug report. And for example this answer from a developer is also informative : http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=515214#91 I have yet to see someone serious and informed saying input hotplug sucks. All xorg developers I have seen (on the web : ML, blogs, irc, ...) seem to agree this new infrastructure is much better. Anyway hal is dead : http://wiki.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2009/Notes?highlight=%28hal%29|%28udev%29#head-754e4968dd043dcf2166dff61afd7d0d06c5 But since that functionality is definitely needed, it will have to be replaced.. somehow.
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Xavier shinin...@gmail.com wrote: I have yet to see someone serious and informed saying input hotplug sucks. All xorg developers I have seen (on the web : ML, blogs, irc, ...) seem to agree this new infrastructure is much better. Just to be clear, I am one of the whiners. I never once claimed that the hal integration is useless, and such is the reason I never attempted to get rid of it from the Arch package. However, the hal integration is 100% useless *for me*. There's an important distinction there
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
Why is hal dead? More information on this and on libudev? Vlad --
Re: [arch-general] xf86-input-evdev conflicts with xorg-server. Remove xorg-server?
On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 19:57 -0600, Aaron Griffin wrote: On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Xavier shinin...@gmail.com wrote: I have yet to see someone serious and informed saying input hotplug sucks. All xorg developers I have seen (on the web : ML, blogs, irc, ...) seem to agree this new infrastructure is much better. Just to be clear, I am one of the whiners. I never once claimed that the hal integration is useless, and such is the reason I never attempted to get rid of it from the Arch package. However, the hal integration is 100% useless *for me*. There's an important distinction there Seems to be the most reasonable approach.
