Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[Gary Buhrmaster]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 10:39 PM William Herrin  wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> As you well know, the general member mailing list is closed to the
> public. I do not have access and could not raise an issue there if I
> wanted to.

Technically, the list archive is open to the public (at
least it is right now, perhaps that is an error?), but you
(and I) do not have the option to post a comment or
opinion as we are not part of a general member org
(I consider that "access" (to the record), but not the
"ability to raise an issue" (by posting)).

The list archive (currently very boring) can be found
at: https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/general-members/



As I recall, a very very long time ago it was possible
to be a member of ARIN without any resources for
a nominal fee.  I even considered (personally) paying
that fee in order to be able to more fully participate
by voting in elections, and (possibly) being on some
committees.  I also recall that option of being such a
member being eliminated at some point due to, I
suspect, the concern about potential board capture
(why buy others votes when you could just buy more
tickets to vote).

As a member based org, ARIN membership is
free to decide how many (and how few) opportunities
and access to the org to grant to non-members.
Whether that is ultimately a good or bad thing is,
ultimately, up to the members (and, as mentioned
above, as a non-member, I don't get to have an
opinion that ultimately counts).
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Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN public participation

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <922521a2-ac85-5cf3-8238-8de382f11...@gmail.com>, 
Fernando Frediani  wrote:

>AfriNic trouble has been just an great example how economic interests 
>may try to force things to malfunction in the benefit of a few actors 
>and we all here that discuss proposals with the aim to have consensus on 
>them should be able to have easy access to these kind of episodes and 
>take that into account as well...

I should begin by apologizing to any and all list members for having started
this thread here, given that this whole topic is, as John C. has noted,
arguably off topic.  I also do apologize if any on my own statements here
have been improperly personal, although I do not, at present, recall any
that were.  (Please feel free to correct me off-list if I am merely failing
to remember.)

That all having been said, it is improbable that anyone who has been on this
list for any length of time will be ignorant of my own personal preferences,
and in particular my personal preference that the greatest possible latitude
should be accorded to any arguably relevant discussions here, subject, of
course, to the need for proper decorum.

I am compelled also to note my agreement with the point made by Fernando
and quoted again above.

We here in the United States are now and have been for some time passing
through a fiery trial that will light us all down, in honor or dishonor,
to the latest generation.  As we now know, this conflict was, in many
respects, both borne from and suckled by the innumerable and often subtle
ambiguities of both our country's founding documents and our subsequently
ratified national statutes.

Innumerable parties, seeking after their own personal interests, have in
recent years methodically sought to exploit all these ambiguities to their
own advantage.  And it is true, I believe, that an arguably analogous script
is now playing out within the AFRINIC region and with respect to its
established organs of governance.

One obviously hopes that no such scenario will ever arise with respect to
ARIN, but the old adage "Forewarned is forarmed" comes immediately to mind.
This is certainly one of the reasons for my original post in this thread.

It may be of use, I think, for the membership and for any and all parties
involved in ARIN policy development to be aware of the possibility that
any cracks or loopholes in either the policies or the legal constitution
of ARIN could, in theory and perhaps even in practice, be turned against
the best interests of the membership.


Regards,
rfg
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Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN public participation

[Martin Hannigan]

There's an "Unofficial - ARIN" Facebook group you can yell at. I've been
suggesting that members don't get enough privilege for years exactly for
the reason John mentioned ($$) and a members only mailing list is a good
start. $0.02. In the RIPE region, there's a private members session where
the public gets booted. If anything, ARIN is too open which allows it to
blame the community for everything. :-)

Cheers,

-M<





On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 7:05 PM William Herrin  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:56 PM John Curran  wrote:
> > This leaves you with a fairly straightforward choice:
> >
> > - Again, if you believe that there is a matter for which ARIN might have
> to take action, then then become a member and discuss it with the other
> members.
> >
> > - if you’re saying that there’s a situation of interest at AFRINIC that
> is relevant to network operators in general, then might I suggest that you
> avail yourself of one of the discussion lists that already exist for
> network operators for such purposes (as the arin-ppml mailing list is and
> remains for number resource policy discussions.)
>
>
> Or I could continue to discuss such topics on PPML like we've been
> doing for the last quarter century and if you take exception to it we
> can start a discussion about whether ARIN intends to tighten
> participation it allows the general public.
>
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
>
>
> --
> William Herrin
> b...@herrin.us
> https://bill.herrin.us/
> ___
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Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN public participation

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 5:11 PM Fernando Frediani  wrote:
> Internet Governance topic that concerns
> not only members but Community in general.

Hi Fernando,

To be clear, I think John -wants- participation by as many folks as
are willing. I think he just temporarily forgot that the community and
the membership are not the same thing and it is the -community- (not
merely the members) which provides ARIN its bottom-up foundation of
legitimacy. You can't structurally discourage community participation
and then claim to be a bottom-up function of that community. Well, I
mean you can claim anything but it would no longer be true.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/
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Re: [arin-ppml] ARIN public participation

[Fernando Frediani]

Folks, I think everybody agrees that anything here that becomes personal 
should not be carried out, but it is important also to understand that 
discussions related to Number Resource Policy may or may not necessarily 
be of linked to an specific proposal, and in the cases it is not it is 
still fine as long the discussion is related to how the Policy 
Development Process works and how can it possibility be affected by 
external events.
AfriNic trouble has been just an great example how economic interests 
may try to force things to malfunction in the benefit of a few actors 
and we all here that discuss proposals with the aim to have consensus on 
them should be able to have easy access to these kind of episodes and 
take that into account as well.  It is all related to the same ecosystem 
and to me it is not very difficult to differentiate the things.


Policy Development Process is a Internet Governance topic that concerns 
not only members but Community in general.
I hope we are able collectively to separate things and focus what really 
matters.

Regards
Fernando

On 10/06/2022 20:04, William Herrin wrote:

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:56 PM John Curran  wrote:

This leaves you with a fairly straightforward choice:

- Again, if you believe that there is a matter for which ARIN might have to 
take action, then then become a member and discuss it with the other members.

- if you’re saying that there’s a situation of interest at AFRINIC that is 
relevant to network operators in general, then might I suggest that you avail 
yourself of one of the discussion lists that already exist for network 
operators for such purposes (as the arin-ppml mailing list is and remains for 
number resource policy discussions.)


Or I could continue to discuss such topics on PPML like we've been
doing for the last quarter century and if you take exception to it we
can start a discussion about whether ARIN intends to tighten
participation it allows the general public.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



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[arin-ppml] ARIN public participation

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:56 PM John Curran  wrote:
> This leaves you with a fairly straightforward choice:
>
> - Again, if you believe that there is a matter for which ARIN might have to 
> take action, then then become a member and discuss it with the other members.
>
> - if you’re saying that there’s a situation of interest at AFRINIC that is 
> relevant to network operators in general, then might I suggest that you avail 
> yourself of one of the discussion lists that already exist for network 
> operators for such purposes (as the arin-ppml mailing list is and remains for 
> number resource policy discussions.)


Or I could continue to discuss such topics on PPML like we've been
doing for the last quarter century and if you take exception to it we
can start a discussion about whether ARIN intends to tighten
participation it allows the general public.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[John Curran]

Bill -

This leaves you with a fairly straightforward choice:

- Again, if you believe that there is a matter for which ARIN might have to 
take action, then then become a member and discuss it with the other members.

- if you’re saying that there’s a situation of interest at AFRINIC that is 
relevant to network operators in general, then might I suggest that you avail 
yourself of one of the discussion lists that already exist for network 
operators for such purposes (as the arin-ppml mailing list is and remains for 
number resource policy discussions.)

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 6:39 PM, William Herrin  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:34 PM John Curran  wrote:
>> To the extent that there is a significant “topic of concern” for which ARIN 
>> might have to take action, feel free to raise it on the general-member 
>> mailing list.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> As you well know, the general member mailing list is closed to the
> public. I do not have access and could not raise an issue there if I
> wanted to.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
> 
> 
> -- 
> William Herrin
> b...@herrin.us
> https://bill.herrin.us/
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 3:34 PM John Curran  wrote:
> To the extent that there is a significant “topic of concern” for which ARIN 
> might have to take action, feel free to raise it on the general-member 
> mailing list.

Hi John,

As you well know, the general member mailing list is closed to the
public. I do not have access and could not raise an issue there if I
wanted to.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[John Curran]

Bill -

To the extent that there is a significant “topic of concern” for which ARIN 
might have to take action, feel free to raise it on the general-member mailing 
list.  (The arin-ppml mailing list has always been for discussion of Internet 
number resource policy, and this purpose remains unchanged.) 

Yes, it’s true that the general-member list is only open to those members of 
ARIN who wish to be involved in ARIN’s governance, but then again, it is ARIN’s 
members that collectively the bear the cost & the risk associated with any 
action.  (Those receiving services without fee or contract already have the 
readily available option of joining ARIN as a member if they wish to have a say 
such matters.)

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 6:19 PM, William Herrin  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:55 AM John Curran  wrote:
>> Stephen is correct – i.e., those that wish to entertain significant 
>> discussions of matters related to AFRINIC governance have more appropriate 
>> mailing lists in that community available for such a purpose.
>> 
>> The ARIN-ppml mailing list is to provide a forum for
>> number policy development activities in the ARIN region.
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> If one of the RIRs is malfunctioning or acting out of scope (as
> alleged) that's a topic of concern for any and all of the other RIRs,
> hence in scope for ARIN.
> 
> Respectfully, as the oldest and most trafficked ARIN forum, PPML is
> the default place for ARIN-related discussion. Despite the occasional
> request, there still still isn't another -open- forum for general
> purpose ARIN-related discussion that might or might not lead to policy
> proposals or formal suggestions. Lacking a reasonable alternative, it
> would be improper to shut the discussion down here.
> 
> I've been disappointed with the personal attacks in this thread and
> found the video that started it to be largely evidence-free but 100%
> this is the place for the discussion to happen.
> 
> Regards,
> Bill Herrin
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> William Herrin
> b...@herrin.us
> https://bill.herrin.us/
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[William Herrin]

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 11:55 AM John Curran  wrote:
> Stephen is correct – i.e., those that wish to entertain significant 
> discussions of matters related to AFRINIC governance have more appropriate 
> mailing lists in that community available for such a purpose.
>
> The ARIN-ppml mailing list is to provide a forum for
> number policy development activities in the ARIN region.

Hi John,

If one of the RIRs is malfunctioning or acting out of scope (as
alleged) that's a topic of concern for any and all of the other RIRs,
hence in scope for ARIN.

Respectfully, as the oldest and most trafficked ARIN forum, PPML is
the default place for ARIN-related discussion. Despite the occasional
request, there still still isn't another -open- forum for general
purpose ARIN-related discussion that might or might not lead to policy
proposals or formal suggestions. Lacking a reasonable alternative, it
would be improper to shut the discussion down here.

I've been disappointed with the personal attacks in this thread and
found the video that started it to be largely evidence-free but 100%
this is the place for the discussion to happen.

Regards,
Bill Herrin



-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[Omo Oaiya]

My apologies, John and all.  I agree that AFRINIC matters should remain in
Africa unless it relates to the ARIN region.

Omo.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022, 19:55 John Curran,  wrote:

> Fernando -
>
> Stephen is correct – i.e., those that wish to entertain significant
> discussions of matters related to AFRINIC governance have more appropriate
> mailing lists in that community available for such a purpose.
>
> The ARIN-ppml mailing list is to provide a forum for
> number policy development activities in the ARIN region.
>
> Thanks!
> /John
>
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> American Registry for Internet Numbers
>
>
> On Jun 10, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Fernando Frediani 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hello Stephen
>
> Although I am not much involved in this discussion, although I commented I
> have to say that I often see this type of questioning in the list and I
> personally don't see the list exclusively to discuss policies, but anything
> that may have to do with them and with this Policy Development Discussion
> ecosystem we are all involved.
>
> People participating here take in consideration a lot of details to form
> their opinion and discuss about the proposed policies and anything that may
> have to do with an attack against a RIR, a tentative of manipulation of the
> process being the PDP or election to the Board or any RIR that may also
> happen in this one should be of the concern of everybody involved, so they
> can have more information to form their opinion regarding the effects of
> each proposal that is presented here and its possible effects.
>
> Finally and not less important, although we have Regional RIRs the effects
> of trouble happening in other RIRs have the potential to affect how things
> work for all others and by consequence the whole of Internet, so another
> reason is good that people participating in the this list get this related
> information to take in account when discussing any proposed policies and
> also if that kind of trouble could also happen here.
>
> Best regards
> Fernando
> On 10/06/2022 15:08, Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
>
> Not meaning to be a wet blanket but which ARIN policy is this discussion
> in relation to?  I seem to recall that the PPML List is to "provide a
> forum to raise and discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding
> existing and proposed ARIN policies."
>
> Perhaps the community would be better served if the current
> conversation to a forum more focused on the topic being discussed?
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> [image: Verizon] 
>
>
> Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
> Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
> Network Engineering and Ops
>
> 22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
> Ashburn, VA 20147
>
> Office 703.694.6965
> stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com
>
>
>
> [image: Facebook]   [image: Twitter]
>   [image: LinkedIn]
> 
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:14 PM Omo Oaiya  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <
>> arin-ppml@arin.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
 Larus, Ltd.
>>>
>>>
>>> True story.
>>>
>>> However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
 no desire to have same.
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet archives never forget.
>>>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html
>>> 
>>>
>>> On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really
>>> went on to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider
>>> knowledge of the organization.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Noah
>>>
>>>
>>> Nope… It was a statement against certain misinformation being
>>> promulgated by you at the time.
>>>
>>> It was based on the publicly available record at the time and not any
>>> internal knowledge or affiliation with NRS.
>>>
>>> I don’t agree with lots of things Larus is doing/has done, but I’m
>>> supporting them in their law suits because I believe the board and staff
>>> are just plain wrong in their effort to revoke their membership based on a
>>> plain text reading of the provisions cited by the board and staff in their
>>> various affidavits and correspondence.
>>>
>>> Facts are facts. When I see misinformation and/or disinformation, I will
>>> tend to speak out against it, even when I don’t agree with or support the
>>> party being attacked.
>>>
>>
>> These would have to be alternative facts from your track record on the
>> AFRINIC lists

Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[Fernando Frediani]

Hi Stephen

Yeah I see and agree with what you mean about personal level discussions
which differs from Internet Governance and Policy Development topics.

Best regards
Fernando

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022, 15:49 Middleton, Stephen R, <
stephen.r.middle...@verizon.com> wrote:

> Hello Fernando,
>
> I agree, the topic of vote buying and similar is worthy of discussion as
> it could lead to or shape a policy discussion.  But is it worthy to discuss
> ARIN members on a personal level?  I think the topic got into the weeds
> fairly quickly.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> [image: Verizon] 
>
>
> Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
> Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
> Network Engineering and Ops
>
> 22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
> Ashburn, VA 20147
>
> Office 703.694.6965
> stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com
>
>
>
> [image: Facebook]   [image: Twitter]
>   [image: LinkedIn]
> 
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 2:27 PM Fernando Frediani 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Stephen
>>
>> Although I am not much involved in this discussion, although I commented
>> I have to say that I often see this type of questioning in the list and I
>> personally don't see the list exclusively to discuss policies, but anything
>> that may have to do with them and with this Policy Development Discussion
>> ecosystem we are all involved.
>>
>> People participating here take in consideration a lot of details to form
>> their opinion and discuss about the proposed policies and anything that may
>> have to do with an attack against a RIR, a tentative of manipulation of the
>> process being the PDP or election to the Board or any RIR that may also
>> happen in this one should be of the concern of everybody involved, so they
>> can have more information to form their opinion regarding the effects of
>> each proposal that is presented here and its possible effects.
>>
>> Finally and not less important, although we have Regional RIRs the
>> effects of trouble happening in other RIRs have the potential to affect how
>> things work for all others and by consequence the whole of Internet, so
>> another reason is good that people participating in the this list get this
>> related information to take in account when discussing any proposed
>> policies and also if that kind of trouble could also happen here.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Fernando
>> On 10/06/2022 15:08, Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>>
>> Not meaning to be a wet blanket but which ARIN policy is this discussion
>> in relation to?  I seem to recall that the PPML List is to "provide a
>> forum to raise and discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding
>> existing and proposed ARIN policies."
>>
>> Perhaps the community would be better served if the current
>> conversation to a forum more focused on the topic being discussed?
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: Verizon] 
>>
>>
>> Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
>> Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
>> Network Engineering and Ops
>>
>> 22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
>> Ashburn, VA 20147
>>
>> Office 703.694.6965
>> stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: Facebook]
>> 
>>   [image: Twitter]
>> 
>>   [image: LinkedIn]
>> 
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:14 PM Omo Oaiya  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <
>>> arin-ppml@arin.net> wrote:
>>>


 On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:



 On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, <
 arin-ppml@arin.net> wrote:

>
> Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
> Larus, Ltd.


 True story.

 However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
> no desire to have same.


 Internet archives never forget.

 https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html
 

Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[John Curran]

Fernando -

Stephen is correct – i.e., those that wish to entertain significant discussions 
of matters related to AFRINIC governance have more appropriate mailing lists in 
that community available for such a purpose.

The ARIN-ppml mailing list is to provide a forum for
number policy development activities in the ARIN region.

Thanks!
/John

John Curran
President and CEO
American Registry for Internet Numbers


On Jun 10, 2022, at 2:27 PM, Fernando Frediani  wrote:



Hello Stephen

Although I am not much involved in this discussion, although I commented I have 
to say that I often see this type of questioning in the list and I personally 
don't see the list exclusively to discuss policies, but anything that may have 
to do with them and with this Policy Development Discussion ecosystem we are 
all involved.

People participating here take in consideration a lot of details to form their 
opinion and discuss about the proposed policies and anything that may have to 
do with an attack against a RIR, a tentative of manipulation of the process 
being the PDP or election to the Board or any RIR that may also happen in this 
one should be of the concern of everybody involved, so they can have more 
information to form their opinion regarding the effects of each proposal that 
is presented here and its possible effects.

Finally and not less important, although we have Regional RIRs the effects of 
trouble happening in other RIRs have the potential to affect how things work 
for all others and by consequence the whole of Internet, so another reason is 
good that people participating in the this list get this related information to 
take in account when discussing any proposed policies and also if that kind of 
trouble could also happen here.

Best regards
Fernando

On 10/06/2022 15:08, Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML wrote:
Greetings,

Not meaning to be a wet blanket but which ARIN policy is this discussion in 
relation to?  I seem to recall that the PPML List is to "provide a forum to 
raise and discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding existing and 
proposed ARIN policies."

Perhaps the community would be better served if the current conversation to a 
forum more focused on the topic being discussed?

Best Regards,


[Verizon]

Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
Network Engineering and Ops

22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
Ashburn, VA 20147

Office 703.694.6965
stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com

  [Twitter]    
[LinkedIn] 


On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:14 PM Omo Oaiya 
mailto:kod...@gmail.com>> wrote:



On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML 
mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net>> wrote:


On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> wrote:



On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, 
mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net>> wrote:

Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
Larus, Ltd.

True story.

However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
no desire to have same.

Internet archives never forget.

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html

On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really went on 
to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider knowledge of the 
organization.

Cheers,
Noah

Nope… It was a statement against certain misinformation being promulgated by 
you at the time.

It was based on the publicly available record at the time and not any internal 
knowledge or affiliation with NRS.

I don’t agree with lots of things Larus is doing/has done, but I’m supporting 
them in their law suits because I believe the board and staff are just plain 
wrong in their effort to revoke their membership based on a plain text reading 
of the provisions cited by the board and staff in their various affidavits and 
correspondence.

Facts are facts. When I see misinformation and/or disinformation, I will tend 
to speak out against it, even when I don’t agree with or support the party 
being attacked.

These would have to be alternative facts from your track record on the AFRINIC 
lists :-)

Omo
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML]

Hello Fernando,

I agree, the topic of vote buying and similar is worthy of discussion as it
could lead to or shape a policy discussion.  But is it worthy to discuss
ARIN members on a personal level?  I think the topic got into the weeds
fairly quickly.



Best Regards,



[image: Verizon] 


Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
Network Engineering and Ops

22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
Ashburn, VA 20147

Office 703.694.6965
stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com



[image: Facebook]   [image: Twitter]
  [image: LinkedIn]



On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 2:27 PM Fernando Frediani 
wrote:

> Hello Stephen
>
> Although I am not much involved in this discussion, although I commented I
> have to say that I often see this type of questioning in the list and I
> personally don't see the list exclusively to discuss policies, but anything
> that may have to do with them and with this Policy Development Discussion
> ecosystem we are all involved.
>
> People participating here take in consideration a lot of details to form
> their opinion and discuss about the proposed policies and anything that may
> have to do with an attack against a RIR, a tentative of manipulation of the
> process being the PDP or election to the Board or any RIR that may also
> happen in this one should be of the concern of everybody involved, so they
> can have more information to form their opinion regarding the effects of
> each proposal that is presented here and its possible effects.
>
> Finally and not less important, although we have Regional RIRs the effects
> of trouble happening in other RIRs have the potential to affect how things
> work for all others and by consequence the whole of Internet, so another
> reason is good that people participating in the this list get this related
> information to take in account when discussing any proposed policies and
> also if that kind of trouble could also happen here.
>
> Best regards
> Fernando
> On 10/06/2022 15:08, Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
>
> Not meaning to be a wet blanket but which ARIN policy is this discussion
> in relation to?  I seem to recall that the PPML List is to "provide a
> forum to raise and discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding
> existing and proposed ARIN policies."
>
> Perhaps the community would be better served if the current
> conversation to a forum more focused on the topic being discussed?
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> [image: Verizon] 
>
>
> Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
> Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
> Network Engineering and Ops
>
> 22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
> Ashburn, VA 20147
>
> Office 703.694.6965
> stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com
>
>
>
> [image: Facebook]
> 
>   [image: Twitter]
> 
>   [image: LinkedIn]
> 
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:14 PM Omo Oaiya  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <
>> arin-ppml@arin.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
 Larus, Ltd.
>>>
>>>
>>> True story.
>>>
>>> However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
 no desire to have same.
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet archives never forget.
>>>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html
>>> 
>>>
>>> On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really
>>> went on to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider
>>> knowledge of the organization.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Noah
>>>
>>>
>>> Nope… It was a 

Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[Fernando Frediani]

Hello Stephen

Although I am not much involved in this discussion, although I commented 
I have to say that I often see this type of questioning in the list and 
I personally don't see the list exclusively to discuss policies, but 
anything that may have to do with them and with this Policy Development 
Discussion ecosystem we are all involved.


People participating here take in consideration a lot of details to form 
their opinion and discuss about the proposed policies and anything that 
may have to do with an attack against a RIR, a tentative of manipulation 
of the process being the PDP or election to the Board or any RIR that 
may also happen in this one should be of the concern of everybody 
involved, so they can have more information to form their opinion 
regarding the effects of each proposal that is presented here and its 
possible effects.


Finally and not less important, although we have Regional RIRs the 
effects of trouble happening in other RIRs have the potential to affect 
how things work for all others and by consequence the whole of Internet, 
so another reason is good that people participating in the this list get 
this related information to take in account when discussing any proposed 
policies and also if that kind of trouble could also happen here.


Best regards
Fernando

On 10/06/2022 15:08, Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML wrote:

Greetings,


Not meaning to be a wet blanket but which ARIN policy is this 
discussion in relation to?  I seem to recall that the PPML List is to 
"provide a forum to raise and discuss policy-related ideas and issues 
surrounding existing and proposed ARIN policies."


Perhaps the community would be better served if the current 
conversation to a forum more focused on the topic being discussed?



Best Regards,



Verizon 


Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
Network Engineering and Ops

22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
Ashburn, VA 20147

Office 703.694.6965
stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com 



Facebook Twitter 
LinkedIn 





On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:14 PM Omo Oaiya  wrote:




On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML
 wrote:




On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:



On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML,
 wrote:


Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud
Innovation and
Larus, Ltd.


True story.

However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
no desire to have same.


Internet archives never forget.

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html



On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as
you really went on to explaib what they are all about as
though you had insider knowledge of the organization.

Cheers,
Noah


Nope… It was a statement against certain misinformation being
promulgated by you at the time.

It was based on the publicly available record at the time and
not any internal knowledge or affiliation with NRS.

I don’t agree with lots of things Larus is doing/has done, but
I’m supporting them in their law suits because I believe the
board and staff are just plain wrong in their effort to revoke
their membership based on a plain text reading of the
provisions cited by the board and staff in their various
affidavits and correspondence.

Facts are facts. When I see misinformation and/or
disinformation, I will tend to speak out against it, even when
I don’t agree with or support the party being attacked.


These would have to be alternative facts from your track record on
the AFRINIC lists :-)

Omo
___
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Re: [arin-ppml] [E] Re: AFRINIC vote buying

[Middleton, Stephen R via ARIN-PPML]

Greetings,


Not meaning to be a wet blanket but which ARIN policy is this discussion in
relation to?  I seem to recall that the PPML List is to "provide a forum to
raise and discuss policy-related ideas and issues surrounding existing and
proposed ARIN policies."

Perhaps the community would be better served if the current conversation to
a forum more focused on the topic being discussed?


Best Regards,



[image: Verizon] 


Stephen R. Middleton, Sr.
Princ Engr-Ntwk Engring
Network Engineering and Ops

22001 Loudoun County Parkway; F1-2-277
Ashburn, VA 20147

Office 703.694.6965
stephen.r.middle...@one.verizon.com



[image: Facebook]   [image: Twitter]
  [image: LinkedIn]



On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 12:14 PM Omo Oaiya  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML <
> arin-ppml@arin.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
>>> Larus, Ltd.
>>
>>
>> True story.
>>
>> However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
>>> no desire to have same.
>>
>>
>> Internet archives never forget.
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html
>> 
>>
>> On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really
>> went on to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider
>> knowledge of the organization.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Noah
>>
>>
>> Nope… It was a statement against certain misinformation being promulgated
>> by you at the time.
>>
>> It was based on the publicly available record at the time and not any
>> internal knowledge or affiliation with NRS.
>>
>> I don’t agree with lots of things Larus is doing/has done, but I’m
>> supporting them in their law suits because I believe the board and staff
>> are just plain wrong in their effort to revoke their membership based on a
>> plain text reading of the provisions cited by the board and staff in their
>> various affidavits and correspondence.
>>
>> Facts are facts. When I see misinformation and/or disinformation, I will
>> tend to speak out against it, even when I don’t agree with or support the
>> party being attacked.
>>
>
> These would have to be alternative facts from your track record on the
> AFRINIC lists :-)
>
> Omo
> ___
> ARIN-PPML
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).
> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.arin.net_mailman_listinfo_arin-2Dppml&d=DwICAg&c=udBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&r=PNlZCOTcrBXvix6v31kntg680rC2tshHDXM0RcJv5bE&m=9sw9nyzLNUg6DZYGzlnK8WkqhJdEJxryDRavaNpfwNMSxaa79ZFZWW8vRTN-vlYl&s=PhELEmVQxYaj0w5Y14ZaHW2wj2e6nZRqcQn__FbBgtA&e=
> Please contact i...@arin.net if you experience any issues.
>
___
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Re: [arin-ppml] AFRINIC vote buying

[Omo Oaiya]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 at 16:29, Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML 
wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
>> Larus, Ltd.
>
>
> True story.
>
> However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
>> no desire to have same.
>
>
> Internet archives never forget.
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html
>
> On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really
> went on to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider
> knowledge of the organization.
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
>
> Nope… It was a statement against certain misinformation being promulgated
> by you at the time.
>
> It was based on the publicly available record at the time and not any
> internal knowledge or affiliation with NRS.
>
> I don’t agree with lots of things Larus is doing/has done, but I’m
> supporting them in their law suits because I believe the board and staff
> are just plain wrong in their effort to revoke their membership based on a
> plain text reading of the provisions cited by the board and staff in their
> various affidavits and correspondence.
>
> Facts are facts. When I see misinformation and/or disinformation, I will
> tend to speak out against it, even when I don’t agree with or support the
> party being attacked.
>

These would have to be alternative facts from your track record on the
AFRINIC lists :-)

Omo
___
ARIN-PPML
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the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (ARIN-PPML@arin.net).
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Re: [arin-ppml] AFRINIC vote buying

[Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML]

> On Jun 10, 2022, at 05:22 , Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML,  > wrote:
> 
> Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
> Larus, Ltd.
> 
> True story.
> 
> However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
> no desire to have same.
> 
> Internet archives never forget.
> 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html 
> 
> 
> On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really went 
> on to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider knowledge of 
> the organization.
> 
> Cheers,
> Noah

Nope… It was a statement against certain misinformation being promulgated by 
you at the time.

It was based on the publicly available record at the time and not any internal 
knowledge or affiliation with NRS.

I don’t agree with lots of things Larus is doing/has done, but I’m supporting 
them in their law suits because I believe the board and staff are just plain 
wrong in their effort to revoke their membership based on a plain text reading 
of the provisions cited by the board and staff in their various affidavits and 
correspondence.

Facts are facts. When I see misinformation and/or disinformation, I will tend 
to speak out against it, even when I don’t agree with or support the party 
being attacked.

Owen

___
ARIN-PPML
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Re: [arin-ppml] AFRINIC vote buying

[Noah]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2022, 00:19 Owen DeLong via ARIN-PPML, 
wrote:

>
> Yes, there’s no secret that I am a consultant to Cloud Innovation and
> Larus, Ltd.


True story.

However, I have no involvement or affiliation with NRS and
> no desire to have same.


Internet archives never forget.

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013810.html

On that thread, your response was in full defence of NRS as you really went
on to explaib what they are all about as though you had insider knowledge
of the organization.

Cheers,
Noah
___
ARIN-PPML
You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
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