Re: [Arm-netbook] will lap-top really be 1.1 kg, and how wide

[Chadvellacott]

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote on 2018/04/24 9:39 PM:

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:13 PM, Chadvellacott
<chadvellac...@sasktel.net> wrote:

~

And how wide is the lap-top planned to be (from the left edge of the
case, to the right edge, across the key-board)?


  you can check for yourself by downloading the GPLv3-licensed 3D CAD
source code.

https://www.youmagine.com/designs/libre-hardware-licensed-parametric-laptop-design/

   That page said "The parts are deliberately designed to be printable 
on a standard 200x200mm Mendel90 style 3D printer, so that even a 15.6in 
laptop may be created by printing the longest parts (260mm) across the 
diagonal of a Mendel90 print bed (280mm)."
   But I guess that 260 mm is not meant to span the whole back of the 
screen, considering things lower down on this message.



  (I imagine that 15.6 inches
is for the screen itself rather than the whole case, and is a diagonal
measurement.)


  the LCD is listed on the rhombus-tech page, from which the datasheet
may be sourced, and there is approximately 2mm left and right, about
10mm top, about 25mm at the bottom.

  that gives the overall dimensions.


   Yes, the "youmagine"-page led to
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/news/
to
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/laptop_15in/
to
"AUO B156XTN02.2" for LCD,
from which "duckduckgo" led to
http://www.panelook.com/B156XTN02.2_AUO_15.6_LCM_parameter_15249.html
which said
"outline size of 359.3(W)×209.5(H)×5.5(D) mm"
   I did not get the "PDF"-data-sheet offered there, because I do not 
have login-credentials there.  But the quoted numbers are probably 
correct, and are confirmed by

http://www.lcd-source.com/Product_Specifications_AUO_B156XTN02.2

   359.3 mm width of LCD, plus 2 mm on the left, plus 2 mm on the 
right, is 363.3 mm, or about


14.3 inches wide for the top part of the "clam-shell".

   Thanks for the directing.  That about answers my question.


l.


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[Arm-netbook] will lap-top really be 1.1 kg, and how wide

[Chadvellacott]

   I noticed that the campaign's main page on "Crowd Supply", says 
"Only 1.1 kg weight" for the lap-top.  Is this specification, still part 
of the plan?


   And how wide is the lap-top planned to be (from the left edge of the 
case, to the right edge, across the key-board)?  (I imagine that 15.6 
inches is for the screen itself rather than the whole case, and is a 
diagonal measurement.)


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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[chadvellacott]

On 18.2.5 11:53, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM,   wrote:


If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
Then I want you to answer.
If I write: Can lkcl ...
Then all on the email list may answer.


 the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by
that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my
personal name?

l.

   May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR ANY MEMBER, to give an 
opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that 
something.  If some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better 
wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more

--verbose.
:^)
   Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react as 
desired, to future uses of such wording.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Alt Webpage & Logo Combo

[chadvellacott]

On 18.2.5 1:1, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wrote:
~

~ I
would hope there are addons out there for light-on-dark text that do
not require CSS knowledge.)


https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dark-background-light-text/

   Usable, though it seems that some sites do not work with it.  4 different ways to try to 
make the page be light on dark, plus  as a 5th mode.  granular to domain or page or 
other.  can be disabled <>.  has a tool-bar--button.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Crowsupply update

[chadvellacott]

On 18.1.8 16:9, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On ~, [called month 1, day]~ 8, 2018 at 9:22 PM, Richard Wilbur 
 wrote:


One downside of the 2.7.4 board at this point is the changes in capacitor 
pricing that have been ameliorated only on version 2.7.5.  Here's hoping the 
2.7.5 board works!


 darn yeah i'd forgotten about the implications of the price-hike.  whoops.

   So, if 2.7.5 is found to have a problem, then it might be cheaper to solve that, than to 
"fall back" to 2.7.4?


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Eoma68 update

[chadvellacott]

On 17.7.23 23:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
~~~

On ~[month 7, day] 24, 2017 at 2:07 AM,   wrote:

~~~

"EOMA68-A20"-card.


 one option is to get a very small card (512mb, 1gb) and put a
"loader" OS on that.  if they're $0.25 or $0.50 in qty 1000 then
that's worth considering.  instead of $4 for an 8GB card. say.

~~~
(Quoting Luke)

and/or to offer much smaller 128 MB or 256 MB microSD cards which have an
absolute bare minimum OS on them, with scripts that will download an OS

~~~

   How secure would this "bare minimum OS" be, for both down-loading AND
installing onto a microSD-card (supplied by me)?


 if it's designed properly, none.


   I do not understand this response.  I understand being tired.



   Ideally, I hope that (1) it does not permit any connections other than
downloading one of several particular "OS"-images, via "URLs" which are
white-listed as part of the "bare minimum OS",


 not whitelisted: hard-coded.


that is good too.
   But, if not significantly more work, then I hope that the mini-"OS" can be 
modified by A TECHNICALLY-MINDED user, to download and "install" a different one of 
the particular "OSs/images" offered.  Something like a "config"-file whose content 
is like this:


BEGIN FILE
0
# lines like this, are comments
# to download and install a different OS (to the microSD-card which you supply), 
change the number on the first line, as follows:

#
# 0 for Parabola 4.3 (3.9 GB) (comes with the RYF Libre Tea card)
# 1 for Devuan 3.2 (4.1 GB)
# 2 for Debian 2.1 custom without systemd (4.2 GB)
# 3 for Fedora 1.0 (3.8 GB)
#
# but make sure that the microSD-card which you supply, is big enough!
END FILE

   (Of course, the sizes and version-numbers for the sample above, are largely 
just place-holders, not things which I checked for realisticness.)


   This way, a user can try or use several different "OSs".  It might even make it 
easier for Luke preparing the "microSD-cards" with the loader-"OS", because the 
difference between preparing a card for someone who backed a "Parabola"-card, is 
only one byte (one key-press) different from preparing a card for someone who 
backed a different card.


   Furthermore, if one or more backers end up unhappy with what they receive for 
the "OS" which they backed, then this method probably makes it FAR easier to help 
those backers try a different "OS".


   As long as the change requires manually editing a configuration-file, it should 
be an adequately-technical task to satisfy the "RYF"-criterion of not offering 
non-libre "software" to average users.



and (2) it afterwards checks
the image to see whether the crypto-graphic hash (better than MD5) matches
the hash which the "bare minimum OS" says is valid for that image.


 bittorrent would automatically do that. command-line version is
btdownloadheadless.


 sounds good.  I imagine that any necessary further details on using this, can 
come later.
 but I hope that "headless" does not mean that we do not even get a statement 
of progress with numbers, something like

   Downloading.  done 1% ...
 or
   Downloading.  amount left to download is 10 mb ...
 or
   Downloaded 3990 mb of 4000 mb ...

   and I hope that we get something similar for "installing".  Some such 
estimate of progress, is valuable (1) for trouble-shooting if necessary, and (2) 
for backers to judge when they should next come back to check whether it is done, 
like 5 minutes later or 1 day later.


 very tired.  stopping here.  sorry. please do carry on the
conversation.  i'll pick it up later.

l


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Init Freedom

[chadvellacott]

   This is a late response, but persons seem to keep confusing the two 
mailing-lists.

On 17.7.8 8:24, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 11:35 PM, David Niklas  wrote:


Luke I became involved about three weeks after the project started. I'm
still on the ML but had no time to keep up or contribute much.


 not a problem.


   At first, I too thought that he was referring to THIS mailing-list, 
"Arm-netbook".  But considering that David's message (as retained below) ends up 
obviously focusing on Devuan and Debian, it seems that he is, even at the start of 
his message, talking of a mailing-list for Devuan.



I saw some
of the most cordial behaviour that I have had the privilege to witness on
a mailing list from most of (all?) the members!


 huh.  despite quite a lot of "venting", that's really appreciated to hear.


   (My comment above, fits here too.)


I really believe that they
will meet with success in their toiling.


~~~



I really think that Devuan is just taking an obvious short cut in the
above case. That is to say, if devuan and debian devs got together to
merge then devuan would get support for system and debian would support
other inits. I do not and did not see any resentment to debian on the
list by the devuan devs.


 the devuan team have a really nice team spirit,


~~~


l.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Eoma68 update

[chadvellacott]

On 17.7.23 15:28, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

~~~

 there's no NAND any more so micro-sd card it is.  i asked for some
help from people about how and what to ship... no response.  2,500
people and nobody made any off-the-wall suggestions: i must have asked
in an unclear way.  (p.s. thank you to the person who suggested places
to look for low-cost micro-sd cards).


  (for reference, I noticed that this topic was discussed somewhat with the 
subject-line "[Arm-netbook] Arm Netbook, Saw the update,", until 2017.6.26.)


  here is a quote from
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop/updates/274-eoma68-a20-cards-arrived

QUOTE
> 1,000 microSD cards would need to be bought, prepared and tested. Some of the 
OS
> images are too large to fit onto a 4 GB Card: that means 8 or 16 GB is 
needed. 8
> GB and 16 GB microSD cards are actually quite expensive, ~.

   Any estimate of how much cost it'd add, per unit, to buy big-enough 
microSD-cards for the bigger distributions pledged for, and prepare and test the 
cards?  Personally, I'm definitely fine with paying more for this.
   How about total cost for that?  Depending on the amount, one or more persons 
might wish to make a donation to cover, or help cover, this cost for everyone.

>
> So I am considering instead to simply provide download scripts for people,

 Upon me receiving an "EOMA68-A20" (yeah, yeah, i still need to decide which 
colour or such of the "Libre-Tea" card to order), it might be the only "Linux-GNU" 
system I have at the time.  (Migrating from "Windows" is taking time, sadly.)  As 
far as I understand, if I just get download-scripts with it, then I'd need to 
either (1) "install" a "Linux-GNU"-distribution onto a computer OTHER than the 
EOMA-68 lap-top, or (2) use a "live" version of some "Linux-GNU"-distribution, just 
so that I could (3) download the OS for the "EOMA68-A20"-card.  And my current 
lap-top, seems to not like the libre distributions which I have tried on it (at 
least, endless "sleep" with "Trisquel").  Maybe other backers or persons planning 
to back this, are likely to have the same problem if merely given download-scripts?

 I guess that a different way to put this problem, is-
   how "important" is it at this stage of EOMA68, to "include" persons who are not 
already running Linux-GNU?  (Maybe this question is going to only be true for the 
"A20"-cards, because maybe others like "RK3388" shall not have this problem.  And 
the "A20"-cards might not see many production-runs.  But I still plan to back at 
least one "A20"-card.)


> and/or to offer much smaller 128 MB or 256 MB microSD cards which have an
> absolute bare minimum OS on them, with scripts that will download an OS onto

   I have tried hard to practice safe "Internet"-use with the systems which I have 
and previously had (yes, moving from "Microsoft" to a libre "OS", should be a 
quantum leap on that "issue").
   How secure would this "bare minimum OS" be, for both down-loading AND 
installing onto a microSD-card (supplied by me)?
   Ideally, I hope that (1) it does not permit any connections other than 
downloading one of several particular "OS"-images, via "URLs" which are 
white-listed as part of the "bare minimum OS", and (2) it afterwards checks the 
image to see whether the crypto-graphic hash (better than MD5) matches the hash 
which the "bare minimum OS" says is valid for that image.


> their own (self-supplied) 4 GB, 8 GB or 16 GB or other sized microSD card. ~
> because the unanticipated iterations have eaten into the available budget. ~
>
> ~ this is something that needs to be discussed, how people would feel about 
the
> need to save on cost of production vs convenience and expectations. Some 
people,
> for example, may not have a reliable Internet connection or may not be 
expecting
> to connect their EOMA68-A20 Card to the Internet at all,

   for my case, I'd plan to (1) configure the "OS" to my satisfaction, and next 
(2) download a satisfactory browser and configure that, and ONLY LATER (3) use 
"Internet" otherwise.

   but like Luke wrote, some persons might plan to not connect at all.

> or for whatever reason
> may not actually have the means to download a 1.7 GB file off the Internet.
QUOTE'S end

   (I manually added the > and the breaks.  Hmm, is that going to work?)

 is it feasible to offer several options to backers, like-

   (1) scripts to download an offered distribution onto backer's self-supplied 
microSD-card (for persons willing and able to do the rest themselves).
   (2) low-capacity microSD-card with mini-OS and the same scripts as option #1 
(for persons comfortable and willing and able to supply their own 
several-GB-microSD-card and at a command-line type "download" and "install").

   (3) 4GB-card with one of the smaller distribution(s) which were offered.
   (4) 8GB-card with one of the bigger distributions, perhaps 

Re: [Arm-netbook] Warning about tablets/netbooks with detachable keyboards

[chadvellacott]

On 16.12.14 13:20, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On 12/13/16, dumblob  wrote:

Hi Luke,




In case you're planning to have the keyboard detachable (even worse if this
detachable piece should have some connectors like USB), think of it twice
as per experience of many users of different such tablets/netbooks (youtube
is full of such reviews), the detachable connection is very fragile
(because the detachable design requires a shallow or rather just "touching"
connection in contrast to "sliding" deeper connectors like USB).


  ok.  first thing: have you heard of the alwaysinnovating touchbook?
it was the world's very first hybrid netbook / tablet.  most people
don't even know it exists, sadly.  as a monolithic design it would
ordinarily have a lifespan of about... six to eight months, but
because it was targetted at linux users that was actually
about...eighteen months / two years.  what killed it was the use of a
720mhz ARM Cortex A8, RAM limited to 512mb... no means of upgrading
except a whopping $50k for replacing the entire main PCB.

  anyway: the casework was extremely robust, with the
keyboard+extra-battery portion having inch-long "arms" at the sides to
securely and firmly hold the main tablet part in place... in a
standard USB socket.


   The "ThinkPad"-series had (or has) convertibles ("X41 Tablet", "X60 Tablet, 
Helix) [1].

   (By the way, the X60-convertible is listed as supported by "libreboot" [2].)
   This line of computers seems to have been distinctively-sturdy.  And the 
X60-convertible was said to have "signature ~ bulletproof build quality" and be 
"more ~ sturdy than any ultralight convertible we have used." [3].
   So maybe how they JOINed the key-board to the screen, was more sturdy than 
other often-problematic "implementations".  (But I have neither seen nor read HOW 
Lenovo connected the two parts.)
   As far as I see, there are two separate concerns- (1) the data-connection (USB 
here, I guess Luke wrote) (the concern of the original post), and (2) how the 
screen and the key-board are held (joined) together (a 2nd thing discussed in this 
context, like the arms mentioned above).


   [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X_Series
if you press ctrl f and look for "conver"
   [2] https://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/index.html#supported_laptops_x86intel
   [3] http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/lenovo-thinkpad-x60-tablet


  you have to bear in mind that i'm being quite realistic about this
whole exercise: if i can't design it to be robust in PLA with a
standard mendel 3D printer, and i can't get off-the-shelf generic
parts that are commonly available from multiple suppliers in huaqiang
rd, futian district, shenzhen, china, it ain't going in.

  so whilst what you're seeing is complaints based on a
fight-to-the-minimum (in terms of both thickness and price), i will be
designing stuff that's "chunky", realistically maintainable by a
lego-mindsetted individual, and built to last.

  therefore, i will *NOT* be attempting to replicate the existing slew
of magnetic catches and so on, apart from anything i won't be able to
get hold of them as they will have been custom-designed for specific
OEMs.

  i _do_ have a background in physics and mathematics which gives me
some mechanical design aptitude :)


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Re: [Arm-netbook] laptop battery lessons...

[chadvellacott]

  The "URL" says  as Nickel, not  as Lithium.
  Which is right?

On 16.12.6 16:30, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On 12/6/16, Julie Marchant  wrote:

~



Actually, are you even using a LiPo battery? Plain Li-ion batteries are
rigid and don't have this problem.


  just reading the datasheet... Lithium Ion (LiCoMn)

should be here:

  
http://hands.com/~lkcl/eoma/laptop_15in/EV%20GPNCM62135160%2010Ah%20NiCoMn%20battery%20cell.pdf



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[Arm-netbook] how to use the stand-alone cables

[chadvellacott]

   Regarding the offerings on the page at "Crowd Supply"-

   To use one of the computer-cards as stand-alone, with the cable-set offered for that purpose, do 
I just-
   (1) buy "a smartphone / tablet 2A USB-OTG Charger (which is easily found at any store these days 
including Walmart or Asda’s)",

   (2) connect the 3-way cable to (a) that charger, (b) the computer-card, and 
(c) the HDMI-cable,
   (3) connect some HDMI-screen to (a) the computer-card and (b) the HDMI-cable?

   Where or how would I connect a key-board and a "mouse"?
   I do not remember reading anywhere that such could be directly connected to the "EOMA 68"-card, 
but perhaps I am forgetting something relevant about that standard.
   The "Intel Compute Stick" seems to use "Bluetooth" for those 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Compute_Stick), and the "Chromebit" seems to add the possibility 
of "WiFi" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromebit), ...

   but how will Rhombus-Tech's stand-alone enable these peripherals?

   Eagerly,
   Chad. (:^)

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[Arm-netbook] by "Resin" (versus "PLA"), is meant what? ABS?

[chadvellacott]

   Considering which "PFY" lap-top housing to choose.

   On the page on "Crowd Supply", for the "PFY" lap-top housings, most of the options involved 
"PLA", but one was rather "Resin".

   I imagine that by the former is meant "Polylactic acid"
.
But that is listed under "Resin Identification Code" 7

so seems to itself be considered a kind of Resin.  [Rats, an ambiguity. (:^) ]

   So what is meant by "Resin", in the list of options?

   If the meaning is "ABS", then this comparison is relevant-


   Ideally, I'd like something which is-
 (a) sturdy enough to let a clumsy adult use, and sturdy enough to gift to a child (even if the 
child is just starting to use a computer),

 (b) can be left in a hot car without deforming,
 (c) can be used in temperatures as cold as the parts can handle, without becoming brittle (any one 
for computing outside in fresh air, in winter?),

 (d) durable enough to last as long as the parts,
 (e) transparent, so that I can see the inner parts through the housing,
 (f) made from renewable materials,
 (g) safer during the 3D-printing.

   But I suspect that the "PLA"-option does not meet A to D as well as the "Resin / Black" does.  I 
guess that then my decision is not so easy.


   Hoping to pre-"order" soon,
   Chad.  (:^)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] "zombie" campaign

[chadvellacott]

On 16.9.12 0:25, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68

~

On ~, Sep 10, 2016 at 11:47 PM,   wrote:

~

On 16.9.9 20:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

~

On ~~, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper
 wrote:


"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."

Seems pretty clear to me :)



   hmm have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".

l.


Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like
"MiniFree" or "Kano" seem to or seemed to?  At least for shipping TO
addresses outside of the "US"?


  we need to work out if it's cheaper to ship everything first to the
US and then outwards from there (because there's no customs duty, just
a one-off "fee" that pales into insignificance).  certainly, sea
freight (which is by volume) would be a lot lower than air freight
(which is by weight).

  i've been trusting the amounts that both chris and joshua
independently use: they're both experienced at this.  me, i'm just
getting my head down into the PCBs etc. for now - logistics comes
later.

l.


~~
   I have been aiming, to "pre-order" in the next few days.
   But, how likely, do you think, shall you be able to FILL "pre-orders"?
   If how you will respond to "pre-ordering" is "up in the air", then me "pre-ordering" now, might 
result in hassle for both of us, rather than be of benefit to both of us.

   So then perhaps I should wait until a decision has been made?

   Eagerly, Chad.  (:^)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] possessive "it's"

[chadvellacott]

   I do not have time for this debate now.  I am "swamped" with work.  I need 
to get other things done.

   Sincerely, Chad.  (:^)

On 16.9.9 10:42, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On ~~, Sep 9, 2016 at 4:02 PM,   wrote:


[No offense intended.  (:^) ]


  none taken - we're all learning - let's have some fun with this.


Those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.
"its" is _not_ a Relative Pronoun.  Relative pronouns are "who what where
when why how whom whose".


  oh!  yes, sorry, you're right - i meant "possessive pronoun".


"it" is a Personal Pronoun, like "he she they".  If it has a possessive
form, then that form is a Possessive Pronoun (like "theirs"), or else a
Possessive Pronominal Adjective (like "their").
I guess that thou meant the concept of Possessive Pronoun, _not_ Relative
Pronoun.


  yes i did.  let's take a look, google "its" and that comes up with
two top links one for "its" and one for "it's".  let's look at the one
for "it's":

   http://www.dictionary.com/browse/it-s

Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
1.
contraction of it is:   It's starting to rain.
2.
contraction of it has: It's been a long time.

Can be confused
it's, its (see confusables note at its )

interesting!  i'll use that one in future, i didn't realise that
"it's" can be a short-hand for "it has".


  Definition:

"pronoun, nominative it, possessive its or (Obsoleteor Dialect) it,
objective it; plural nominative they, possessive their or theirs,
objective them."

  so the word "it" is qualified as a "pronoun", and the word "its" is
defined as a *possessive* pronoun.


the definition in merriam-webster is much less helpful but gives good examples:
 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/its

this one's i can see it's much more helpful:

http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/grammar-lesson-possessive-adjectives.php

it's also showing that "its" is a possessive pronoun.  i wonder why i
said "relative pronoun" when in all other instances i've said
"possessive"?  huh.




But, I am not aware of any _other_ English word becoming possessive by
mere "s" withOUT an apostrophe.  So to decide that "its" is possessive,
seems an unreasonable dogmatic "exception" to the general rule above.


  it's explained here:
  https://www.writingforward.com/grammar/homophones/homophones-its-and-its



English usage has many UNreasonable "exceptions" to it's rules.


  ahhh! gotcha!  you mean "english usage has many Unreasonable
"exceptions" to its (possessive pronoun) rules" :)


So,
English seems unreasonably difficult to learn as a second language.


  it turns out that numbers, as an example, in all european languages,
cause a huge amount of difficulty for children, resulting in
significantly-delayed development of numerical arithmetic skills.  in
the far east, numbers are really *really* straightforward: 0-9 have
their own word, you just read the digits out using those 0-9 words, to
the point where on the HK stock exchange i heard that people are able
to communicate at ten numbers *PER SECOND* which is phenomenal.  my
friend phil also pointed out to me the "flash-card" technique of
training kids in japan as young as seven and eight to do six-digit
mental arithmetic, where they're expected to have 100% accuracy on
something mad like... i can't remember exactly what he said but i
believe it was in excess of two six-digit sums *per second*.  i may be
underestimating there so as not to trip any "total disbelief verging
on bullshit" mental radars.

  in french, the number "98" is *five syllables* with a massive amount
of physical effort required to morph the mouth between some of the
syllables!  qua-tre vingt dix huit.  pronounced "ka-tr-uh va-i-ngg
dee-ss-wh-ee-t" and translated in english "four-twenty ten-eight"!!

   (This

is not "sour grapes".  English is my first language, and I did _not_ have
special trouble with it in school.)
Are we unwilling, to abandon arbitrary "exceptions" so that others can
more-easily learn _our_ _first_ language and communicate with _us_?


  english is the international language for programming, and
programming is about absolute clarity and precision.  so in this *very
specific* field... i'd say yes, absolutely.

  *outside* of the world of computing, whilst it just makes people who
should know better (such as in marketing), it just makes people "look
dumb".  i've seen both BT *and* Shell as recently as 10-15 years ago
put up huge signs across all their stores in the UK make basic
fundamental mistakes with the use of possessive pronouns.

   http://www.copyblogger.com/5-common-mistakes-that-make-you-look-dumb/

  but even if they "look dumb" it's not so critical - it's not so
important in its level of clarity that a product be marketed in its
best possible light, but it's clearly important in its level of
security and effectiveness for a program to be at its most accurately
specified 

Re: [Arm-netbook] "zombie" campaign

[chadvellacott]

On 16.9.9 20:41, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 2:25 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper
 wrote:


"By using the Service to accept Pre-orders, you as the Creator are
offering Users the opportunity to enter into an agreement with you. By
using the Service to place a Pre-order, you as the Customer accept that
offer and the agreement between Customer and Creator is formed. Crowd
Supply is not a party to the agreement between the Customer and Creator.
All dealings related to Pre-orders are solely between Users, regardless
of the Company’s role as an intermediary."

Seems pretty clear to me :)


  hmm have to think about that, as i can't come back in the USA and
bring in anything that could be construed as a "sample".

l.

   Would it work to just ship those items, from outside of the "US", like "MiniFree" or "Kano" seem 
to or seemed to?  At least for shipping TO addresses outside of the "US"?


   Eagerly, Chad.  (:^)


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Re: [Arm-netbook] "zombie" campaign

[chadvellacott]

On 16.9.8 10:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On ~~, Sep 8, 2016 at 3:25 AM,   wrote:

 (Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions
enclosed by {}, and ~ for omissions.)

On 16.9.7 20:20, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:


On ~, Sep 8, 2016 at 3:13 AM,   wrote:


 But from a private reply from Luke (quoted next below), I guess that
we
have SOME more time.



~~


ok, so i've learned that crowdsupply is taking preorders from the end
date of the campaign, for a second batch which will be after the first
one is delivered.  exact dates TBD, i'll need to see how things go.


But am I right to understand, that you pay the factory(s) at the same time,
and each factory produces it's things as one batch?



~~


  yes, the factory produces its things in one batch: the setup and
teardown costs (equipment, wasted materials) are pretty much the same
no matter how many "things" are made.  so if you want one "thing"
made, it will cost you $USD 1,200.  if you want *five* "things"
made, it will cost you $1700 (around $340 each).  but if you want a
*thousand* made, they're $30 each.

  ... exactly the same "thing", exactly the same factory... exactly the
same cost to set up, exactly the same cost to clean up afterwards.

so the more you can get made at once, the less they cost.  very simple.

   So is it correct that the second batch of backers, must pay SOON ENOUGH that you can, at ONE 
time, pay the factory to, in the same set-up, produce for BOTH the FIRST backers AND the SECOND backers?


   (Or do the second batch of backers, have to, sadly, wait until they have ordered 150,000.00 
worth, before their parts start to get produced?)


   Eagerly,
   Chad.  (:^)

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[Arm-netbook] #2- "MLC NAnd" corrupts-on-read how oft? Would your's have "ECCs", and use them to boot correctly?

[chadvellacott]

   The questions in THIS "e"mail, are regarding the "MLC NAnd" mentioned (as planned in the 
computer-cards via "Crowd Supply") in the "Q/A"-section on the campaign-page-

https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
   (My earlier off-list question on this, and Luke's reply, are quoted at the 
bottom.)

 I have been reading on "MLC NAnd", and it seems that now I better understand the problem of 
corruption-on-read.
 (I have included links at the bottom, to some literature which I have looked at.  This might 
give you a sense of my current state of understanding on this.  And others of you might even find 
that some of the linked information is news to you.)


   But I have a few more questions.

   (a) How common is it for corruption-on-read to occur with "MLC NAnd" (like by something as basic 
as reads done by the built-in "ROM" "boot"-loader)?
   (Perhaps the answer is like "N % probability that one or more of the [1 to 4] bits in a cell, 
shall wrongly change it's logical value, after X reads of one or more pages in the same block, Y 
writes to one or more pages in the same block, and Z erases of the block".)
   At first I was thinking that the FIRST time data (mini "boot"-loader or otherwise) is read from 
the "NAnd", corruption might likely occur.
   But perhaps this corruption-on-read naturally happens ONLY after many reads or writes in a block 
and many erases of a block.

   So how common is it?

   (b) Would the "MLC NAnd" planned in the computer-cards via "Crowd Supply", have Error-Correction 
Codes?


   (c) If so, then does whatever reads the "NAnd" on "booting" (I guess it is called the "eGON 
boot-ROM"), know that it should (and know how to) use those "ECCs", to correct errors (if any) which 
it encounters when trying to start the "booting" process, so that it loads the correct original bits 
of the "boot"-loader ("minimalist" or otherwise)?


   I am looking forward to receiving answers to my questions, and soon sending my money to back many 
of the current offerings via "Crowd Supply".

   Sincerely, Chad.  (:^)

Links-

   a little info' on corruption, and on patented ]:^[ work to solve it-
https://storagegaga.wordpress.com/category/data-corruption/

   a little on how "NAnd-flash" works, and file-systems-
http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/doc/nand.html

   more on how it works and how it can get corrupted-
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279762
followed by pages 2 to
http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1279762_number=4

   some research on read-disturbs and mitigation-
https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~saugatag/papers/15dsn.pdf

   detailed comparison of "MLC" and "SLC", with advice on how to use both-
https://cdn.selinc.com/assets/Literature/Publications/White 
Papers/0015_NANDflash_IO_20141211.pdf?v=20151004-191546

  (There should be a single space between "White" and "Papers".)

   booting "Allwinner" chips-
http://linux-sunxi.org/BROM

(Quotes below, might have minor changes, and might have additions enclosed by {}, and ~ for 
omissions.)


On 16.8.26 12:11, lkcl .  wrote:

On ~, {8th month}~, 2016 at 6:33 PM, Crowd Supply  
wrote:

chadvellac...@sasktel.net submitted a question about your project,
"Earth-friendly EOMA68 Computing Devices":


~



~ it seems that your latest plan is or was, to use MLC-NAnd-flash for the
internal "hard disk drive".  And I noticed the mention that that can corrupt
itself on read, not just on write.  ~~~


  primarily you should be looking to store a "mostly-read-only" OS on
the internal NAND, which then mounts external USB drives and Micro-SD
cards as well as mounts tmpfs's for the stuff you really don't need to
be persistent.  i referenced somebody's script called
"readonlyrootfs.sh" which i've successfully used with CompactFlash
rootfs booting in the past.

  also you should really be looking to use jffs2 or better ubifs - some
work's going to be needed here - so that you don't end up losing data.
you can see online that people are talking about just dropping ext4
directly onto raw NAND just because that's what allwinner does with
android... this is incredibly stupid and you clearly shouldn't be
doing it... but ignorance like this tends to get copied wholesale on
BBS forums... *sigh*.

  in the meantime you can always boot from external micro-sd card,
that's what i do all the time, i have a minimalist bootloader at the
front of the NAND and leave the rest of the NAND entirely alone.

  i *may* have to ship people with configs like that (a small 4gb or
8gb microsd included)... just have to see how it goes.



And I noticed the mention that you are considering using SLC instead.

~~


l.




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[Arm-netbook] Sorry to Luke (and others)

[chadvellacott]

(From a computer-libErTarian)

   Sorry, Luke, for the "shower" of private "e"mails today.

   [To avoid any of you confusing me with someone else (I guess Al Billings)-
  No, it was not me who sent 10 private messages, containing demands, in 20 minutes.  Mine was like- 
7, containing questions, in over 3 hours.]


   To you on this mailing-list, and to Luke when he is not so (understandably) busy, please let me 
"explain" my apology and how this happened.


   I had many questions, regarding the products offered at
https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
for backing.

   And I am nearly sure that it HAD occurred to me, in the past, that if a question whose answer is 
likely of interest to others, can be asked and answered PUBLICLY, then that can save time for the 
person answering, by not having to answer the question twice.

   And I HAD noticed that "Rhombus-Tech" had a mailing-list.
   But I guess that it has been a long time since I was on ANY mailing-list, and that I did not 
think clearly about what that meant.
   (Mistake 1) I did not "put two and two together".  It did not occur to me that perhaps my 
questions should be sent to the list, rather than privately to Luke.  I did not even think to ask him 
whether I should send my questions, to the list.  So I sent him a "shower" of questions in private 
"e"mails, mostly this morning but a few were before then.
   After responding to several of them, in reply to one of them he (in a gracious way) asked me to 
"send this" to the list (send the question or send that "e"mail of mine, or perhaps, by "this", he 
meant something more).
   (Mistake 2) I supposed or guessed that he just meant the one or more questions in that particular 
message, or just questions of that particular kind.
   And since I had questions which were on DIFFERENT sub-topics, I continued and sent one or more 
other private "e"mails to him.
   Then he (well-manneredly, again) replied to another of mine, and his reply made it clear enough 
for me, that I should send most or all of these questions, to the list.
   (Mistake 3) BUT, I had already sent another "e"mail, BEFORE reading his 2nd request asking me to 
post to the mailing-list.
   So, understandably, he again replied by directing me to the list.  Again, not rudely, though I 
had been acting foolishly.  And, understandably, he mentioned "critical tasks" for him to do.


   After that, I felt quite ashamed.  Perhaps a little like a baby.  ~(:^o)---
   At least I am learning by this event.  [(A) to use mailing-lists when proper.  and (B) generally, 
to read received messages from the same person or on the same topic, before clicking .]
   I guess that I was not thinking at my best, this morning.  I should have stepped back and taken a 
break.


   Sorry, Luke.  And thanks for the patience with me.

   And sorry too, to you who benefit from work which Luke does when unnecessarily-private messages 
do not distract him from "critical" tasks!


   (And I suspect that I wasted some of Chris Waid's time, too, by "CCing" him with every one of 
those messages of mine, other than one message where I guess I unintentionally put Chris into a 
"To"-field!)


   I will now send questions, to this list.

   And if Luke at some time says that he is fine with it, I will copy (to this list), in some form, 
at least some of my earlier questions and his answers.


   Sincerely, a computer-libErTarian.  (:^)

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