Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 05:23:26PM -0600, Eric Wieling wrote: How does Grandstream become patent indemnified for their hardware? I would assume they did not pay for a license for G723,1 and G729 directly to the patent holding company. Maybe they did. I always assumed the indemnification came with a DSP that implemented the codec. I suppose they did pay for it. A DSP is a processor. Just like when you buy a Pentium IV, it doesn't give you the right to use, for instance, MS Windows on it. You have to pay for software. And that's what algorithms are. Except that you have to pay for algorithms even if you do your own original implementation. -- Nicolas Bougues Axialys Interactive ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Tue, 2004-01-20 at 01:12, Nicolas Bougues wrote: A DSP is a processor. Just like when you buy a Pentium IV, it doesn't give you the right to use, for instance, MS Windows on it. You have to pay for software. And that's what algorithms are. Except that you have to pay for algorithms even if you do your own original implementation. Yes, but with a Pentium you don't have to pay a license to use MMX in your software, since the MMX instructions are part of the product you are allowed to use them with that product. If I understand things correctly, the companies that make DSP chips can implement whatever codec(s) they want and NOT have to pay the patent holders to sell this product with the patent holder's codec in it? I ask again, how does Grandstream (from all accounts a very small company) afford to provide the patented codecs in their products? --Eric ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
If I understand things correctly, the companies that make DSP chips can implement whatever codec(s) they want and NOT have to pay the patent holders to sell this product with the patent holder's codec in it? That is not true. You must license any technologies you use if their license demands it. I ask again, how does Grandstream (from all accounts a very small company) afford to provide the patented codecs in their products? Volume? An excellent sales contract? Perhaps the DSP or DSP firmware they bought to aid their development has licenses for the commercial codecs present? There are a number of MP3 decoder ICs which include the MP3 license cost in the cost of the chip itself, for example. Regards, Andrew ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
Eric Wieling wrote: How does Grandstream become patent indemnified for their hardware? I would assume they did not pay for a license for G723,1 and G729 directly to the patent holding company. Maybe they did. I always assumed the indemnification came with a DSP that implemented the codec. Most people buy the codecs as software packages from one of a few companies that specialise in writing major DSP modules. The royalty those companies charge for the software usually includes the patent fees, which they pass on to the patent holders. If you are lucky, they will indemnify the equipment maker that they have paid all relevant charges. :-) Regards, Steve ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Tue, Jan 20, 2004 at 08:57:32AM -0600, Eric Wieling wrote: On Tue, 2004-01-20 at 01:12, Nicolas Bougues wrote: Yes, but with a Pentium you don't have to pay a license to use MMX in your software, since the MMX instructions are part of the product you are allowed to use them with that product. MMX is not an algorithm. It's an instruction set. I'm not sure whether there is a patent about it, but sure Intel grants you the right to use the MMX instructions on their chips. If I understand things correctly, the companies that make DSP chips can implement whatever codec(s) they want and NOT have to pay the patent holders to sell this product with the patent holder's codec in it? DSP are really processors. Just like your favourite pentium or AMD device. The only difference is that DSP (usually) have special instructions set designed to ease the development of programs performing repetitive (often mathematical) operations on continuous data set. But for instance in GS devices, the main CPU *is* a DSP, simply because : - this DSP can do all the CPU tasks (read, non signal processing tasks) - it was the cheapest option I ask again, how does Grandstream (from all accounts a very small company) afford to provide the patented codecs in their products? What's odd about that ? They are licensing software bricks from one or more DSP *software* vendors. These vendors probably take care of the patent issues themselves. But bear in mind that these vendors are *not* the DSP vendor (TI, in the present case). Hardware vendors sell hardware. Software vendors sell licensing, which include patent rights. That kind of agreement usually involves an upfront cost (probably in the tens of thousand dollars or so), and then a per seat cost. Say a few dollars per phone, for instance. No big deal. -- Nicolas Bougues Axialys Interactive ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
I ask again, how does Grandstream (from all accounts a very small company) afford to provide the patented codecs in their products? What's odd about that ? They are licensing software bricks from one or more DSP *software* vendors. These vendors probably take care of the patent issues themselves. But bear in mind that these vendors are *not* the DSP vendor (TI, in the present case). Hardware vendors sell hardware. Software vendors sell licensing, which include patent rights. That kind of agreement usually involves an upfront cost (probably in the tens of thousand dollars or so), and then a per seat cost. Say a few dollars per phone, for instance. No big deal. Or B) Grandstream simply just doesn't pay the patent fees, I know many Chinese companies which just distribute it without paying for licensing. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 01:28:02AM +, Robert Murray wrote: Hi Has anyone opened up a grandstream phone or handytone ATA to find out what is inside? What is the CPU? How much RAM? The HandyTone 286 features : - 1 Mb Flash - 256 Kb SRAM - a TI TMS320VC5402 100 MHz DSP - an RTL8019AS ISA 10 Mbit Ethernet controller - a phone interface - and some glue around that These are quite cheap components (the most expensive part is the $6 DSP). -- Nicolas Bougues Axialys Interactive ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
Yes. Check the mailing list archives. On Sun, 2004-01-18 at 19:28, Robert Murray wrote: Hi Has anyone opened up a grandstream phone or handytone ATA to find out what is inside? What is the CPU? How much RAM? Cheers Rob ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Go to http://www.digium.com/index.php?menu=documentation and look at the Unofficial Links section. This section has links to a wide variety of 3rd party Asterisk related pages. My page is the Asterisk Resource Pages. BTEL Consulting 504-899-1387 or 850-484-4545 or 877-677-9643 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 02:34, Nicolas Bougues wrote: These are quite cheap components (the most expensive part is the $6 DSP). What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide hardware assisted DSP functions as well as patent indemnification. Would you even have to USE the DPSs in order to be patent indemnified? ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide hardware assisted DSP functions as well as patent indemnification. Would you even have to USE the DPSs in order to be patent indemnified? Using the DSP doesn't make a difference. You pay for indemnification anyway, and just because you have a DSP on the card doesn't mean you don't pay for indemnification or software. Mark ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 08:44:36AM -0600, Eric Wieling wrote: On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 02:34, Nicolas Bougues wrote: These are quite cheap components (the most expensive part is the $6 DSP). What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide PCI boards embedding DSPs exist. However, they are not very cheap, because : - they require PCI glue (FPGA, or some sort of bridge chipset). DSPs usually can't be directly connected to the PCI bus. They probably also need some RAM, or a more complex CPU to drive them. - such existing board usually provide some kind of PCM highways, and/or switch matrices to connect to the telecom environnement - this is a small market : this drives prices up quite fast. hardware assisted DSP functions as well as patent indemnification. Would you even have to USE the DPSs in order to be patent indemnified? Err, I don't see the point with patent indemnification. The price you pay for the patent depends on which patents (ie, which algorithms) you use. Unless your board is limited (by firmware, for instance), to a certain set of algorithms, you can't include the price of the algorithm in the board. -- Nicolas Bougues Axialys Interactive ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide Expanding a bit on Nicolas' message, DSP software is complex, and there is not a huge number of people who do it well. So along with the board layout and production cost (not trival for a 6- or 8-layer board), you have the programming cost for both the PGA (programmable gate array) device(s) and the DSP. You also have the cost of the DSP simulators, driver development etc etc. All of these must be amortized over the number of boards you expect to sell - that's why the board price can get so high. Dialogic's D600-2E1 JCT boards etc cost well over US$1. The whole point of the asterisk/digium exercise is to move the complex software to the PC and take advantage of the economies of scale that it brings. Regards, Scott Stingel Scott M. Stingel President Emerging Voice Technology Inc. Palo Alto, California and London, England Email: scott at evtmedia.com URL:www.evtmedia.com ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
Scott Stingel wrote: What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide Expanding a bit on Nicolas' message, DSP software is complex, and there is not a huge number of people who do it well. So along with the board layout and production cost (not trival for a 6- or 8-layer board), you have the programming cost for both the PGA (programmable gate array) device(s) and the DSP. You also have the cost of the DSP simulators, driver development etc etc. All of these must be amortized over the number of boards you expect to sell - that's why the board price can get so high. Dialogic's D600-2E1 JCT boards etc cost well over US$1. The whole point of the asterisk/digium exercise is to move the complex software to the PC and take advantage of the economies of scale that it brings. Don't forget power and HEAT! When I was making Portmasters at Livingston/Lucent we made modem boards with a bunch of DSP's sitting on TDM's. Some of those DSP's are great BTU generators. Some times you have to clock the DSP at slower speeds just to keep the heat down. -- Bob Knight [-w] the work option [EMAIL PROTECTED] 925-449-9163 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
How does Grandstream become patent indemnified for their hardware? I would assume they did not pay for a license for G723,1 and G729 directly to the patent holding company. Maybe they did. I always assumed the indemnification came with a DSP that implemented the codec. --Eric On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 10:25, Nicolas Bougues wrote: On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 08:44:36AM -0600, Eric Wieling wrote: On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 02:34, Nicolas Bougues wrote: These are quite cheap components (the most expensive part is the $6 DSP). What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide PCI boards embedding DSPs exist. However, they are not very cheap, because : - they require PCI glue (FPGA, or some sort of bridge chipset). DSPs usually can't be directly connected to the PCI bus. They probably also need some RAM, or a more complex CPU to drive them. - such existing board usually provide some kind of PCM highways, and/or switch matrices to connect to the telecom environnement - this is a small market : this drives prices up quite fast. hardware assisted DSP functions as well as patent indemnification. Would you even have to USE the DPSs in order to be patent indemnified? Err, I don't see the point with patent indemnification. The price you pay for the patent depends on which patents (ie, which algorithms) you use. Unless your board is limited (by firmware, for instance), to a certain set of algorithms, you can't include the price of the algorithm in the board. -- Go to http://www.digium.com/index.php?menu=documentation and look at the Unofficial Links section. This section has links to a wide variety of 3rd party Asterisk related pages. My page is the Asterisk Resource Pages. BTEL Consulting 504-899-1387 or 850-484-4545 or 877-677-9643 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 14:01, Bob Knight wrote: Scott Stingel wrote: What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide Expanding a bit on Nicolas' message, DSP software is complex, and there is not a huge number of people who do it well. So along with the board layout and production cost (not trival for a 6- or 8-layer board), you have the programming cost for both the PGA (programmable gate array) device(s) and the DSP. You also have the cost of the DSP simulators, driver development etc etc. All of these must be amortized over the number of boards you expect to sell - that's why the board price can get so high. Dialogic's D600-2E1 JCT boards etc cost well over US$1. The whole point of the asterisk/digium exercise is to move the complex software to the PC and take advantage of the economies of scale that it brings. Don't forget power and HEAT! When I was making Portmasters at Livingston/Lucent we made modem boards with a bunch of DSP's sitting on TDM's. Some of those DSP's are great BTU generators. Some times you have to clock the DSP at slower speeds just to keep the heat down. Did patent/codec indemnification come as part of the DSP product, or did you have to do the indemnification separately? ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
Patent licensing is usually, like this: a) direct licensing if you rolled your own implementation of the specs b) indirect - if you bought an implementation from another vendor, case in point Digium licenses the G.729a binary from Voiceage. Cheers Eric Wieling wrote: On Mon, 2004-01-19 at 14:01, Bob Knight wrote: Scott Stingel wrote: What *I* want to know is why someone has not made a CHEAP PCI card with 4, 8, or 16 of these DSPs on it. This kind of card would provide Expanding a bit on Nicolas' message, DSP software is complex, and there is not a huge number of people who do it well. So along with the board layout and production cost (not trival for a 6- or 8-layer board), you have the programming cost for both the PGA (programmable gate array) device(s) and the DSP. You also have the cost of the DSP simulators, driver development etc etc. All of these must be amortized over the number of boards you expect to sell - that's why the board price can get so high. Dialogic's D600-2E1 JCT boards etc cost well over US$1. The whole point of the asterisk/digium exercise is to move the complex software to the PC and take advantage of the economies of scale that it brings. Don't forget power and HEAT! When I was making Portmasters at Livingston/Lucent we made modem boards with a bunch of DSP's sitting on TDM's. Some of those DSP's are great BTU generators. Some times you have to clock the DSP at slower speeds just to keep the heat down. Did patent/codec indemnification come as part of the DSP product, or did you have to do the indemnification separately? ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
Hi Has anyone opened up a grandstream phone or handytone ATA to find out what is inside? What is the CPU? How much RAM? Cheers Rob ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
I'm not sure, I just opened mine up to see. Looks like they epoxied over three of the chips. One is a 73pin, another is a 44 pin, and the last looks to be a 44 pin. Ethernet is a RTL8019AS (10mbit) and it's using a Tamarack TC3097-8 repeater (HUB) which actually supports 9 ports (8 ethernet, 1 AUI). Obviously this is only a 10mbit repeater. It's worth noting that this chip is end of life. Figure a couple bucks for these if you can get them, sounds like old stock to me. Flash memory looks to be about 8m according to the 29LV800ABTC-70 flash ram chip. These are going for under $1, sounds like more old stock. The Xilinx XC9536XL CPLD could be the processor and RAM... It's around $2 Anyway, I'm not a hardware guy but that's what I see. On another note, what's the deal with Hold, Mute, Caller ID Review, and Called Number Review on these things? Do they just not work, or am I missing something? -Bill -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Murray Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware Hi Has anyone opened up a grandstream phone or handytone ATA to find out what is inside? What is the CPU? How much RAM? Cheers Rob ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] [ot] Grandstream hardware
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On another note, what's the deal with Hold, Mute, Caller ID Review, and Called Number Review on these things? Do they just not work, or am I missing something? Caller ID Review/Called Number Review only works when the phone is off the hook. I don't know why they did it that way. I gave up on trying to transfer with the phone. Transfer doesn't. It just puts the call into never-never-land, which means you can't get back to it but it won't hang up either. Mute works for me, as does hold. And this doesn't even mention the phone forgetting how buttons work (happens every few days on one of my phones - you have to reboot the phone). I won't even mention what I think of the early dial almost working. Or the fact that the handset isn't wired in a standard way (it does not work with some assistive technology because of that). Or that you don't hear hardly any of your own voice in the handset. I don't really have a problem with the phone's hardware (well, other then the way the handset is wired). I have a tremendous problem with its firmware, though. Right now, these phones have absolutely no place in a business at all - not even as reception area phones. I hope they fix this problem, though - they could be decent phones I think for the cost if the firmware got fixed. -- Joel ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
