Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
Hi All, I am not sure if my comments will be helpful but here goes. Recently completed a roll out of Asterisk to provide a FTTH (fibre to the home) based telephone exchange. It uses Asterisk real time and a MySQL database. The design is for a somewhat smaller audience (~4000 extensions) but should provide some insight into a successful larger build which is basically a server scaling exercise. The setup works like this: 2x MySQL servers, one primary and one backup with a shared IP address. 2x Asterisk gateway servers, one primary and one secondary, a shared IP address. 2x Asterisk SIP servers, one primary and one secondary with a shared IP address. The Asterisk servers are joined by IAX which allows the SIP server (only serving internal connections) to connect to ISDN or via SIP through one of the two gateway servers whilst providing redundancy and isolation of the different parts of the network. Each house has a termination box that supplies cable TV, an ATA and internet access via a single QoS managed fibre link. The equipment at the end of each fibre is proprietary but is the same as an ATA for the purposes of voice (therefore each house is presented with a two-wire exchange connection). Each termination box provides two copper lines. Use of MySQL for provisioning has been fantastic - it has been stable and allows us to provide third parties with access to provision every aspect of the server (voicemail, DID's, extensions for the ATA's, call type restrictions and control line level settings such as voicemail and ring delay). We have some code in the dial plan which checks these settings using ODBC integration. For reliability we have a local copy of extensions.conf for each server. In terms of system design, there have been three things that we needed to know inside out: * How to make MySQL bullet proof. In your case you are probably considering a cluster with multiple physical locations for redundancy. * What changes to the default kernel settings need to be made to facilitate large network groups and large buffers. This really depends on how many individual registrations and calls each server is going to handle. * Setup of Asterisk to work well for high availability and ease of configuration. One interesting design project I have also worked on (which may help here) is for emergency telephones on a motorway. Every telephone is fed from an alternating supply cabinet (phone 1 - cabinet 1, phone 2 - cabinet 2, phone 3 - cabinet 1, phone 4 - cabinet 2) so if one cabinet fails (due to a switch, an ATA or power supply failure) only every second phone is taken out. There are other issues - faxing and data calls don't work well in most setups. On the FTTH project we use an override code for faxes and send them via ISDN rather than VoIP. Unfortunately one of the contractors chose VoIP as the backbone of the network rather than ISDN despite our advice to the contrary. Your choice of ATA will also be important to faxing. Asterisk may carry you a way down this road, but in the end, it's not, and was never designed to be a class 5 telecom switch. There are people working on a carrier grade implementation that may or may not be fully class 5, but I don't know what the status is on that. I haven't gotten an answer from Digium on that lately. I disagree with this statement for a purely voice network. A few years ago this statement would be true. With the correct hardware and engineering, Asterisk can competently handle class 5 and higher (for example class 4) switching. They key however is good design and separating servers to run core functions as the network gets larger. A large network like this means that you would most likely have specific servers running highly specialized routing rather than having one server route all sorts of different calls. You'll want some type of Multiservice Access Platform (MSAP). Zhone makes the MALC and their newer MXK box. Adtran has the TA-5000 shelf. Neither are what you'd call cheap. Both will provide T1 access, DSL, SDSL, VDSL, bonded, and even ethernet access to the customer over a variety of transport options, including copper pairs. There are a few other vendors that have this, CoreCess is one and I believe Motorola also have been looking at manufacturing this type of unit. (The Motorola conversation wasn't exactly specific, it was mentioned they were interested in a job which was similar in requirements to what the Zhone equipment was recommended for.) But, I think you were looking for exchange equipment. Your suggestion of using a server at each local exchange seems to be most logical. I am assuming you will be using existing copper which you can then put into a channel bank. I unfortunately don't have too many brand recommendations but this is similar in style to what I have done on some closed networks. One thing that I can't emphasize enough is to test the system thoroughly. You will need to make sure you comply with E911 and other emergency
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
-Original Message- From: asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Elvish Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 6:20 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system Hi All, I am not sure if my comments will be helpful but here goes. snip Let me know if you need anymore pointers. Also happy to consult but you would need to contact me off list for that... Stuart Elvish === Thanks, your info is most helpful, as is the other info I have received, some of it in private messages. Your snapshot description of a ~4000 user system and architecture is a good starting point for our planning. Cary Fitch -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Cary Fitch ca...@usawide.net wrote: But, we have an opportunity to get into a big time telecom activity. It would have 2000 to 30,000 user lines per city, and we would like to have those brought back to a central location for control and because transport can be more economical than remote site rentals, maintenance and personnel. I would say you need to make an RFP process to first negotiate your calling rate extremely low with the major vendors of the country where you're operating. If this is US, you're talking Qwest, ATT, Verizon, and the ilk, and you negotiate an extremely low minute rate in return for giving them a guaranteed minimum revenue. And while you're at it, you ask them how they suggest you design the architecture over their national network. -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
Thanks for the feed back, but the rates are more or less predetermined. ATT rates would be $.0007 per minute for local calls. The operation would be providing local phones wired to houses with copper pairs. What I am looking for is the best ways to handle those lines when brought to a local switch site. The actual switch might not be there but back hauled, might be a TDM switch, a concentrator (TNT, etc) 10 ganged Asterisk systems, or tin can and string. I see some talking about TNTs in this forum. Those are 672 lines or in some versions double that, what is used behind them to do the processing, etc. Cary Fitch -Original Message- From: asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of David Backeberg Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:29 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Cary Fitch ca...@usawide.net wrote: But, we have an opportunity to get into a big time telecom activity. It would have 2000 to 30,000 user lines per city, and we would like to have those brought back to a central location for control and because transport can be more economical than remote site rentals, maintenance and personnel. I would say you need to make an RFP process to first negotiate your calling rate extremely low with the major vendors of the country where you're operating. If this is US, you're talking Qwest, ATT, Verizon, and the ilk, and you negotiate an extremely low minute rate in return for giving them a guaranteed minimum revenue. And while you're at it, you ask them how they suggest you design the architecture over their national network. -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
Cary- Asterisk may carry you a way down this road, but in the end, it's not, and was never designed to be a class 5 telecom switch. There are people working on a carrier grade implementation that may or may not be fully class 5, but I don't know what the status is on that. I haven't gotten an answer from Digium on that lately. What you're looking for are local gateways that backhaul to a central switch site with equipment that can support traffic from multiple rate centers in multiple LATAs. This gets complicated quickly, especially if your rate centers are spread across multiple states. You'll want some type of Multiservice Access Platform (MSAP). Zhone makes the MALC and their newer MXK box. Adtran has the TA-5000 shelf. Neither are what you'd call cheap. Both will provide T1 access, DSL, SDSL, VDSL, bonded, and even ethernet access to the customer over a variety of transport options, including copper pairs. The Zhone box already has SIP backhaul for voice traffic, and the Adtran shelf should have it soon. Today the Adtran box has GR303 backhaul for voice. All that said, what you're proposing indicates to me that you're likely to need to establish CLEC certification in whatever states you'll be operating. That in itself is not a short process. It can take anywhere from 90 days to a year depending on the state, and expect to spend from $10K up on legal costs per state alone. Insurance, financial health, and other requirements vary by state as well. The ILECs generally won't even talk to you about establishing colo and gaining access to the copper loops until you get the CLEC certificate. Generally the process starts by getting the certificate, then negotiating an ICA, then trunking services, then colo. Different carriers will be easier to work with than others, but they are all a pain. ATT requires you to have a $10M general liability policy in place before you can even submit a request for a space availability report. All this is not to say it can't be done, but to point out that it's a very difficult process to negotiate, even when you have done it several times. Without experience it can be close to impossible. I'd suggest getting a good telecom/clec consultant and a good telecom lawyer (I know a few) involved early in the process, or you'll end up spending ALOT of money. Hit me off-list and I can give you more info. Joe On 6/24/2010 11:24 PM, Cary Fitch wrote: We are an asterisk user... small time system 50-100 users or so. But, we have an opportunity to get into a big time telecom activity. It would have 2000 to 30,000 user lines per city, and we would like to have those brought back to a central location for control and because transport can be more economical than remote site rentals, maintenance and personnel. We could take the local lines into concentrators (TNTs or equivalent) and bring back IP to a central site, or put servers at the remote cities. Our object is to serve as a central office switch for subscribers on standard telco service loops. This isn't a How many lines can I handle using a Belchfire 2600 processor? type question but a request for pointers to big time systems. There would be no IP path to the end user, just copper. Thank you Cary Fitch -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Cary Fitch ca...@usawide.net wrote: I see some talking about TNTs in this forum. Those are 672 lines or in some versions double that, what is used behind them to do the processing, etc. So a channelized DS3 is roughly 28*23 channels in US if you do one D-channel per PRI (other options are possible). That gets you 644 channels. You can either buy gear that terminates a channelized DS3 natively, like a Cisco AS series device to voip-ify the PSTN channels, or you can get a device like an Adtran MX2800 which breaks out the DS3 into individual T1/PRIs, which you can then terminate with a number of different technologies, including a lot of Digium cards, or you can voipify with appliances like a Cisco 3845. So you can get a lot of asterisk boxes that have native DAHDI channels, or you can put a layer in-between that adds expense, but increases routing options. That's how the DS3 works. To bundle DS3s, you generally get fiber to the premise, and demux it at your data center using equipment approved or provided by your telco of choice. If you're talking 30k channels, that's some bigger glass, which then demuxes down to OC-whatever, which eventually demuxes to lots of DS3s, but honestly I've never worked at a scale past a handful of DS3s, so there may be a vastly superior way to do things at that scale. -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
On 06/25/2010 10:00 AM, Cary Fitch wrote: Thanks for the feed back, but the rates are more or less predetermined. ATT rates would be $.0007 per minute for local calls. The operation would be providing local phones wired to houses with copper pairs. What I am looking for is the best ways to handle those lines when brought to a local switch site. The actual switch might not be there but back hauled, might be a TDM switch, a concentrator (TNT, etc) 10 ganged Asterisk systems, or tin can and string. I see some talking about TNTs in this forum. Those are 672 lines or in some versions double that, what is used behind them to do the processing, etc. You really, really want to use IP backhaul as close to the end customers as you can push it. If you can't, then you need to use multiplexing to avoid having to have one channel per customer, which is excessive for residential usage. This is what GR-303 was designed (and is still used) for. -- Kevin P. Fleming Digium, Inc. | Director of Software Technologies 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA skype: kpfleming | jabber: kflem...@digium.com Check us out at www.digium.com www.asterisk.org -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system
a Rack of load balanced Asterisk Servers with some customized billing system with a respectable centralized database like MsSQL or Oracle ..External E1 or T1 Gateways instead of TDM cards.. with load balancing?? as the whole operation is COPPER WEIRES .. can't that setup work for them?I'm asking as i'm looking for a similar setup just trying to set it up virtually before we go live.Regards -- Tarek Sawah Integrated Digital Systems CCNA, MCSE, RHCE, VoIP USA: +1 347 562 2308 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:49:12 -0400 From: j...@ngn-networks.com To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com; ca...@usawide.net Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Big time system Cary- Asterisk may carry you a way down this road, but in the end, it's not, and was never designed to be a class 5 telecom switch. There are people working on a carrier grade implementation that may or may not be fully class 5, but I don't know what the status is on that. I haven't gotten an answer from Digium on that lately. What you're looking for are local gateways that backhaul to a central switch site with equipment that can support traffic from multiple rate centers in multiple LATAs. This gets complicated quickly, especially if your rate centers are spread across multiple states. You'll want some type of Multiservice Access Platform (MSAP). Zhone makes the MALC and their newer MXK box. Adtran has the TA-5000 shelf. Neither are what you'd call cheap. Both will provide T1 access, DSL, SDSL, VDSL, bonded, and even ethernet access to the customer over a variety of transport options, including copper pairs. The Zhone box already has SIP backhaul for voice traffic, and the Adtran shelf should have it soon. Today the Adtran box has GR303 backhaul for voice. All that said, what you're proposing indicates to me that you're likely to need to establish CLEC certification in whatever states you'll be operating. That in itself is not a short process. It can take anywhere from 90 days to a year depending on the state, and expect to spend from $10K up on legal costs per state alone. Insurance, financial health, and other requirements vary by state as well. The ILECs generally won't even talk to you about establishing colo and gaining access to the copper loops until you get the CLEC certificate. Generally the process starts by getting the certificate, then negotiating an ICA, then trunking services, then colo. Different carriers will be easier to work with than others, but they are all a pain. ATT requires you to have a $10M general liability policy in place before you can even submit a request for a space availability report. All this is not to say it can't be done, but to point out that it's a very difficult process to negotiate, even when you have done it several times. Without experience it can be close to impossible. I'd suggest getting a good telecom/clec consultant and a good telecom lawyer (I know a few) involved early in the process, or you'll end up spending ALOT of money. Hit me off-list and I can give you more info. Joe On 6/24/2010 11:24 PM, Cary Fitch wrote: We are an asterisk user... small time system 50-100 users or so. But, we have an opportunity to get into a big time telecom activity. It would have 2000 to 30,000 user lines per city, and we would like to have those brought back to a central location for control and because transport can be more economical than remote site rentals, maintenance and personnel. We could take the local lines into concentrators (TNTs or equivalent) and bring back IP to a central site, or put servers at the remote cities. Our object is to serve as a central office switch for subscribers on standard telco service loops. This isn't a How many lines can I handle using a Belchfire 2600 processor? type question but a request for pointers to big time systems. There would be no IP path to the end user, just copper. Thank you Cary Fitch -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4-- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello
[asterisk-users] Big time system
We are an asterisk user... small time system 50-100 users or so. But, we have an opportunity to get into a big time telecom activity. It would have 2000 to 30,000 user lines per city, and we would like to have those brought back to a central location for control and because transport can be more economical than remote site rentals, maintenance and personnel. We could take the local lines into concentrators (TNTs or equivalent) and bring back IP to a central site, or put servers at the remote cities. Our object is to serve as a central office switch for subscribers on standard telco service loops. This isn't a How many lines can I handle using a Belchfire 2600 processor? type question but a request for pointers to big time systems. There would be no IP path to the end user, just copper. Thank you Cary Fitch -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
