Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
One of the problems you'll run into is that in larger countries like the US, and/or countries with greater amounts of telecom interconnection, competition and deregulation, this information cannot be reduced simply to a convenient algorithm. The North American Numbering Plan (www.nanpa.com) does provide some basic standards for valid numbers, but aside from that, there exists no special numerological distinction between incumbent and competitive, fixed-line and mobile, or VoIP, and extensive number portability throws even more complexity into the mix. I'm not saying it can't be done - just be aware that the undertaking you're proposing is very complicated, and the information would come from innumerable data sources (a great deal of them commercial and expensive) and a bewilderingly overlapping array of standards bodies. For instance, something like this: > NZ Cellular: > area code 21 and 29 followed by 6, 7 or 8 digits - Vodafone GSM > area code 27 followed by 6 or 7 digits - NZ Telecom CDMA > note that there is number portability so the above is a guide. ... sounds like a laughably, impossibly simplistic formula to a North American reader. And I can't imagine the situation in many other countries is much simpler. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
If you want an idea of what the setup looks like in NANPA land, enjoy this convenient spreadsheet: http://www.nanpa.com/nanp1/allutlzd.zip Notice that there is no discernable pattern to the number space allocated to a particular flavour of carrier. And do beware that these are 10,000 code blocks only; in pooled areas (most metropolitan areas, and an increasingly large number of areas) these get split up into 1,000-code blocks and the information from that comes from National Pooling/Neustar (www.nationalpooling.com). Consequently, routing or analysing anything by 10,000 blocks is becoming an increasingly useless practise. Oh, and don't forget the byzantine properties of portability here. Alex Balashov wrote: > One of the problems you'll run into is that in larger countries like the > US, and/or countries with greater amounts of telecom interconnection, > competition and deregulation, this information cannot be reduced simply > to a convenient algorithm. > > The North American Numbering Plan (www.nanpa.com) does provide some > basic standards for valid numbers, but aside from that, there exists no > special numerological distinction between incumbent and competitive, > fixed-line and mobile, or VoIP, and extensive number portability throws > even more complexity into the mix. > > I'm not saying it can't be done - just be aware that the undertaking > you're proposing is very complicated, and the information would come > from innumerable data sources (a great deal of them commercial and > expensive) and a bewilderingly overlapping array of standards bodies. > > For instance, something like this: > >> NZ Cellular: >> area code 21 and 29 followed by 6, 7 or 8 digits - Vodafone GSM >> area code 27 followed by 6 or 7 digits - NZ Telecom CDMA >> note that there is number portability so the above is a guide. > > ... sounds like a laughably, impossibly simplistic formula to a North > American reader. And I can't imagine the situation in many other > countries is much simpler. > > -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:24:56 you wrote: > One of the problems you'll run into is that in larger countries like the > US, and/or countries with greater amounts of telecom interconnection, > competition and deregulation, this information cannot be reduced simply > to a convenient algorithm. > > The North American Numbering Plan (www.nanpa.com) does provide some > basic standards for valid numbers, but aside from that, there exists no > special numerological distinction between incumbent and competitive, > fixed-line and mobile, or VoIP, and extensive number portability throws > even more complexity into the mix. > > I'm not saying it can't be done - just be aware that the undertaking > you're proposing is very complicated, and the information would come > from innumerable data sources (a great deal of them commercial and > expensive) and a bewilderingly overlapping array of standards bodies. Yes, but calls to the USA and Canada landline/cellular cost the same. I need as many countries in the list that I can get info on because in many cases cellular calls and landline calls are priced differently and I need to make routing distinctions in my dial plan. Yes you are correct, Australia and New Zealand are an easy plan. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Michael wrote: > Yes, but calls to the USA and Canada landline/cellular cost the same. What? No, they don't. They absolutely do not; there are many, many different intercarrier compensation tiers here depending on operating area and the applicable tariffs arising from regulatory classification. Termination to mobile carriers most definitely does not cost the same as fixed-line, and termination to fixed-line varies widely depending on interconnection agreements and who is doing the transport and the switching where. *You* may be getting a blended rate plan that amortises all the damage into one convenient rate, but rest assured that it doesn't cost the underlying carrier the same rate all around. If you get a plan from someone that gives you a rate deck by LATA, Tier or OCN, you will find that to be true. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Michael wrote: >> I'm not saying it can't be done - just be aware that the undertaking >> you're proposing is very complicated, and the information would come >> from innumerable data sources (a great deal of them commercial and >> expensive) and a bewilderingly overlapping array of standards bodies. > > Yes, but calls to the USA and Canada landline/cellular cost the same. > > I need as many countries in the list that I can get info on because in many > cases cellular calls and landline calls are priced differently and I need to > make routing distinctions in my dial plan. > In general you don't need to worry about that, as when you go to buy your "routes", the splits are given to you. For example, though you have split up New Zealand nicely I don't need that information, as the termination provider I buy New Zealand from gives me one price for what they deem "proper" (01164) and another several for what they deem "mobile" (01164900, 011648, 011642). Whatever destination is dialed simply picks the route that it most matches, and I know what the charges are. This does mean that you have to stay in synch with any changes your upstream termination providers make to their dial plans, however. j ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Jeff LaCoursiere wrote: > In general you don't need to worry about that, as when you go to buy > your "routes", the splits are given to you. For example, though you > have split up New Zealand nicely I don't need that information, as the > termination provider I buy New Zealand from gives me one price for what > they deem "proper" (01164) and another several for what they deem > "mobile" (01164900, 011648, 011642). Whatever destination is dialed > simply picks the route that it most matches, and I know what the charges > are. Only when it's simple. When a country is small or is big but has a single state telco incumbent and a few mobile carriers, that's not too hard. Of course you can get blended domestic US48 termination - most people do. But, two things happen when you hit a large traffic volume that cause that to go away: 1) *You* lose on the blended rate for high-density and/or highly competitive destinations you could route to for rates under the blended plan. 2) Your providers get increasingly nervous about their exposure to your all-over-the-map traffic patterns, ability to adhere to a theoretical 80% RBOC blend, or whatever. So, high amounts of traffic start to get broken apart into much, much more granular (and therefore numerous) tiers, sometimes down to the terminating carrier. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
> In general you don't need to worry about that, as when you go to buy your > "routes", the splits are given to you. For example, though you have split > up New Zealand nicely I don't need that information, as the termination > provider I buy New Zealand from gives me one price for what they deem > "proper" (01164) and another several for what they deem "mobile" > (01164900, 011648, 011642). Whatever destination is dialed simply picks > the route that it most matches, and I know what the charges are. Case in point (and why we should have a community orientated approach to this) If that is how your carrier has divided it up they have given you inaccurate information. Let's forget about USA/Canada for now as from my/most people's point of view the routes are all so cheap (and blended) that it does not matter. I think it is more important to focus on other countries. Michael ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
> Only when it's simple. When a country is small or is big but has a > single state telco incumbent and a few mobile carriers, that's not too > hard. > > Of course you can get blended domestic US48 termination - most people > do. But, two things happen when you hit a large traffic volume that > cause that to go away: > > 1) *You* lose on the blended rate for high-density and/or highly > competitive destinations you could route to for rates under the blended > plan. > > 2) Your providers get increasingly nervous about their exposure to your > all-over-the-map traffic patterns, ability to adhere to a theoretical > 80% RBOC blend, or whatever. So, high amounts of traffic start to get > broken apart into much, much more granular (and therefore numerous) > tiers, sometimes down to the terminating carrier. Well, hopefully some people outside of the USA/Canada will assist me with other destinations on the list. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Michael wrote: > Let's forget about USA/Canada for now as from my/most people's point of view > the routes are all so cheap (and blended) that it does not matter. I think it > is more important to focus on other countries. What is your traffic volume such that you are claiming to speak for most people? For genuinely large traffic volumes, it most emphatically _does_ matter. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Michael wrote: > >> In general you don't need to worry about that, as when you go to buy your >> "routes", the splits are given to you. For example, though you have split >> up New Zealand nicely I don't need that information, as the termination >> provider I buy New Zealand from gives me one price for what they deem >> "proper" (01164) and another several for what they deem "mobile" >> (01164900, 011648, 011642). Whatever destination is dialed simply picks >> the route that it most matches, and I know what the charges are. > > Case in point (and why we should have a community orientated approach to this) > > If that is how your carrier has divided it up they have given you inaccurate > information. Hmm, I looked over your summary again against the route prefixes I just gave and they seem to match. They aren't as detailed, but that isn't important, as long as I can tell a cellular from a landline, which those prefixes do accomplish. I don't really care how accurate they are either, as long as my carrier will honor the prices for the prefixes they have provided me. > > Let's forget about USA/Canada for now as from my/most people's point of view > the routes are all so cheap (and blended) that it does not matter. I think it > is more important to focus on other countries. > You have no idea what an uphill battle you will be fighting, and one that is constantly changing. If the idea is to compile all this info to make a master routing list for making purchases, you really don't need to bother. They will be given to you buy your carriers. NANPA is complex, but for purchasing at the wholesale level blended routes are pretty common, which actually makes it one of the simpler ones. Try the Dominican Republic - I currently have over 1200 routes to this small country, and they cannot be any further collapsed... j ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
> Hmm, I looked over your summary again against the route prefixes I just > gave and they seem to match. They aren't as detailed, but that isn't > important, as long as I can tell a cellular from a landline, which those > prefixes do accomplish. I don't really care how accurate they are either, > as long as my carrier will honor the prices for the prefixes they have > provided me. Great! I will send you some 900 calls lol :-) > > Let's forget about USA/Canada for now as from my/most people's point of > > view the routes are all so cheap (and blended) that it does not matter. I > > think it is more important to focus on other countries. > > You have no idea what an uphill battle you will be fighting, and one that > is constantly changing. If the idea is to compile all this info to make a > master routing list for making purchases, you really don't need to bother. > They will be given to you buy your carriers. NANPA is complex, but for > purchasing at the wholesale level blended routes are pretty common, which > actually makes it one of the simpler ones. Try the Dominican Republic - I > currently have over 1200 routes to this small country, and they cannot be > any further collapsed... Yes, but with an A-Z carrier, this can become risky when landline calls are charged very differently to cellular calls, as is the case in NZ, Australia and many other countries, unless someone is just a 'virtual' provider and letting their up line do the invoices. Michael ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:45:11 Alex Balashov wrote: > Michael wrote: > > Let's forget about USA/Canada for now as from my/most people's point of > > view the routes are all so cheap (and blended) that it does not matter. I > > think it is more important to focus on other countries. > > What is your traffic volume such that you are claiming to speak for most > people? > > For genuinely large traffic volumes, it most emphatically _does_ matter. Easy - you are based in the USA, so very likely most of your traffic volume will be in this general area. Where I am based, while there is a lot of traffic volume to North America, there are also large volumes to Pacific and Asia. So therefore the over all USA and NA % is smaller from this part of the world, hence the up line can make enough profit over all that they are less likely to view it as a loosing proposition. There is of course also the psychological element that companies are more polite to people overseas... ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Michael wrote: > >> Hmm, I looked over your summary again against the route prefixes I just >> gave and they seem to match. They aren't as detailed, but that isn't >> important, as long as I can tell a cellular from a landline, which those >> prefixes do accomplish. I don't really care how accurate they are either, >> as long as my carrier will honor the prices for the prefixes they have >> provided me. > > Great! I will send you some 900 calls lol :-) > Which my upstreams will either honor as part of the prefixes they have provided, or will refrain from routing them. I'm not claiming to be anywhere near the top of the foodchain here, and I suppose that yes, I am putting some trust in the carriers I buy from. If I were more paranoid I might try to filter out the possible toll calls and such, but in four years that hasn't been an issue... >> currently have over 1200 routes to this small country, and they cannot be >> any further collapsed... > > Yes, but with an A-Z carrier, this can become risky when landline calls are > charged very differently to cellular calls, as is the case in NZ, Australia > and many other countries, unless someone is just a 'virtual' provider and > letting their up line do the invoices. Same argument above... j ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Michael wrote: > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:45:11 Alex Balashov wrote: >> Michael wrote: >>> Let's forget about USA/Canada for now as from my/most people's point of >>> view the routes are all so cheap (and blended) that it does not matter. I >>> think it is more important to focus on other countries. >> >> What is your traffic volume such that you are claiming to speak for most >> people? >> >> For genuinely large traffic volumes, it most emphatically _does_ matter. > > Easy - you are based in the USA, so very likely most of your traffic volume > will be in this general area. > What he means is that if your traffic volumes get very high you won't be able to purchase blended rates anymore, and then things will get very complicated in NANPA land. If you are REALLY interested in getting started, just pull the rate list from any of a dozen voip terminators and perform the old sort -nu. j ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Michael wrote: > Well, hopefully some people outside of the USA/Canada will assist me with > other destinations on the list. That, on the other hand, may not be a bad idea. Although I expect it would become useless in increasing degrees proportional to the level of deregulation and competition in those markets over the next few years. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
You forgot Uruguay I can give you the info if you want :) Enviado desde mi iPhone El 13/12/2008, a las 01:10 a.m., Michael escribió: > Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed > country > numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. > > I was also thinking maybe people present could contribute some > information on > this list for now. The countries I am after are below. > > To start this off I will provide the information for Australia +61 > and New > Zealand +64. > > NZ Cellular: > area code 21 and 29 followed by 6, 7 or 8 digits - Vodafone GSM > area code 27 followed by 6 or 7 digits - NZ Telecom CDMA > note that there is number portability so the above is a guide. > > NZ Landline: > area code 3, 4, 6, 7 and 9 followed by 7 digits (first digit will be > in the > range of 2-9) > > NZ toll free: > area code 508 and 800 followed by 6 digits > > NZ premium: > area code 900 - though I doubt any of you will be routing these calls > > AU cellular: > area code 4 followed by a 2 digit network code, and then a 6 digit > number > Networks include: Optus, Telstra, 3, Vodafone, Virgin and others. > All use GSM > and there is number portability. > > AU landline: > area code 2, 3, 7 and 8 followed by 8 digits (first digit will be in > the range > of 2-9) > > AU toll free: > area code 1300 or 1800 followed by 6 digits OR area code 13 followed > by 4 > digits. > > AU premium: > I'm not sure though someone present may fill us in. > > Following is the list of countries I need information on: > > ; ANDORRA > ; ARGENTINA > ; AUSTRIA > ; BAHAMAS > ; BELGIUM > ; BRAZIL > ; BULGARIA > ; CANADA > ; CHILE > ; CHINA > ; COLOMBIA > ; CROATIA > ; CYPRUS SOUTH > ; CZECH REPUBLIC > ; DENMARK > ; ESTONIA > ; FRANCE > ; GERMANY > ; GREECE > ; GUADELOUPE > ; GUAM > ; HONG KONG > ; HUNGARY > ; ICELAND > ; INDONESIA > ; IRELAND > ; ISRAEL > ; ITALY > ; JAPAN > ; JORDAN > ; SOUTH KOREA > ; LUXEMBOURG > ; MALAYSIA > ; MARIANA ISLANDS > ; MEXICO > ; MONACO > ; NETHERLANDS > ; NORWAY > ; PANAMA > ; PERU > ; PERU LIMA > ; POLAND > ; PORTUGAL > ; PUERTO RICO > ; ROMANIA > ; RUSSIA > ; SAN MARINO > ; SINGAPORE > ; SLOVAKIA > ; SLOVENIA > ; SPAIN > ; SWEDEN > ; SWITZERLAND > ; TAIWAN > ; THAILAND > ; TURKEY > ; UNITED KINGDOM > ; UNITED STATES > ; VENEZUELA > > ___ > -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- > > asterisk-users mailing list > To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: > http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Fri, December 12, 2008 10:50 pm, Michael wrote: > Yes, but with an A-Z carrier, this can become risky when landline calls > are charged very differently to cellular calls, as is the case in NZ, > Australia and many other countries, unless someone is just a 'virtual' > provider and letting their up line do the invoices. It's not that they're letting their underlying carrier do the invoices. It's just that the relationship between them and the underlying carrier is a separate relationship from theirs to you. If they lose money on the rates they guaranteed you, it's their problem, not yours. What's important is what you get charged, not what someone else's cost structure is. It's just that with high traffic volumes it's generally difficult to benefit from that without having the differences proportionally reflected and passed through to you. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Fri, December 12, 2008 10:57 pm, Michael wrote: > So therefore the over all USA and NA % is smaller from this part of the > world, hence the up line can make enough profit over all that they are > less likely to view it as a loosing proposition. That depends entirely on who your users are calling in North America. I know a customer that got a nice blended deal from a Tier 1 NA carrier for terminating traffic from overseas. Said carrier is pulling their hair out trying to figure out how to get rid of this contract; the customer is cherry-picking the most expensive routes off that plan precisely because it is blended. It's costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Michael wrote: > > Yes, but with an A-Z carrier, this can become risky when landline calls are > charged very differently to cellular calls, as is the case in NZ, Australia > and many other countries, unless someone is just a 'virtual' provider and > letting their up line do the invoices. > > Some of our providers have rates that don't change much (they've built in tolerance levels to them, so that if there's a fluctuation of 5c in one direction or another, it won't much matter. Some of our providers pass us a new A-Z rate deck every WEEK. Including rate changes and prefix changes. Countries go from 5 prefixes to cover mobile, to 25, and then to 18, and then to 7, and then to 130... changing on a weekly basis (and sometimes daily in a few countries we deal with). You'd need to get more than just the Asterisk community into this. You'd need an overall organisation of underlying carriers worldwide which could update their destinations whenever there's a change. As a project, that's not only daunting technologically, but massively difficult politically. A lot of those UCs aren't going to WANT to join your coalition of information. After all, what's in it for them? Add to that that the information it gives YOU is not going to be applicable on a grand scale. While the actual carrier who maintains prefixes 56-110 may change their structure on a weekly basis, it's possible the contracts they have with providers you'd be using have differing information available to the provider. Which means that just because something in the landscape changes, the rates may not change to you (or might change to YOU, but not to someone who uses a different provider that uses the same UC). I'm not sure I can see the value of a community-driven effort to keep track of things which, by nature, are not applicable to everyone in the community, as we all have our own contracts with our own providers and our own set of rates based on our own conditions of traffic. Perhaps you can explain better the value of the proposition in more detail. N. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
SIP wrote: > As a project, that's not only daunting technologically, but massively > difficult politically. A lot of those UCs aren't going to WANT to join > your coalition of information. After all, what's in it for them? Not to mention that there are plenty of commercial consultancies, tariff watchers and data aggregators that make very good money selling tiny (but ponderous) subsets of this information in machine-processable format. You'd be cutting into the revenue stream of folks like Telcordia, CCMI, etc. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Alex Balashov wrote: > You'd be cutting into the revenue stream of folks like Telcordia, CCMI, etc. ... which, of course, there's nothing wrong with. Just be prepared to witness the awesome power of their fully operational legal battlestation. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Michael wrote: > On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:29:23 you wrote: >> Alex Balashov wrote: >>> You'd be cutting into the revenue stream of folks like Telcordia, CCMI, >>> etc. >> ... which, of course, there's nothing wrong with. Just be prepared to >> witness the awesome power of their fully operational legal battlestation. > > This is OTTP (Over the top paranoia) > > I am talking about information gained from people resident in the various > countries. I understand. The problem is that such information is useless and an almost entirely pointless waste of time because in all but the simplest of scenarios (like the kind you mention in Australia and NZ) ordinary people do not have this information, or the information is applicable to them only and not of much intersubjective value. It is exceptionally rare to find a country with just a handful of prefixes, especially outside of the Third World. So, the information would have to come from official sources to be comprehensive. That's problem one. Problem two was summarised by the poster "SIP": "I'm not sure I can see the value of a community-driven effort to keep track of things which, by nature, are not applicable to everyone in the community, as we all have our own contracts with our own providers and our own set of rates based on our own conditions of traffic." In other words, whereas the distinction between a fixed and mobile call may be of importance in *your* particular pricing arrangements with your suppliers, other people have all sorts of different arrangements. There are blended rates for everything, blended rates for some things, decked rates for some things and blended for others, decked rates by LATA, decked rates by carrier, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure there are rate decks by hemisphere, rate decks by how many goats you are prepared to ritually sacrifice as tribute to ITSP, etc. So, the distinction useful to you in your rating process is not necessarily useful to others, or even a critical mass of others. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Here is the data for Israel: +972 is the international prefix, and then: 2,3,4,8,9 and then 7 digits: Landline, according to the dialling area; usually copper connected phones. 7x and then 7 digits: Landline, country wide numbering (usually IP based operators). x: 2=Golden lines (012), 3=Barak (013), 4=Globecall & Partner, 6=Bezeq, 7=HOT. 5x and then 7 digits: Cellulars. x: 0=Pelephone, 2=Cellcom, 4=Orange, 7=MIRS, 9=Jawwal (Palestenian operator). 159 and then 6 digits - Country wide numbering. Used usually by small service providers who has more than one branch (like computer labs, etc.). 17xx and then 6 digits: Usually call centers; local call tariff. 18xx and then 6 digits - Toll free numbers. 19xx and then 6 digits - Premuim services. 10x - Emergency services (police, first aid, fire). 12xx - Special long term services with national importance to have short number (like psychological first aid). This is also used for temporary numbers assigned for short period (like hospital number just after some disaster). * (can also be reached with 1222) - commercial services who want short dialling string. Maybe there are more, but these are the mostly used ones. regards, __Yehavi: ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
What's more, the "official" numbering plan authorities' information doesn't provides even less insight into the cost structure once you take into account that different underlying carriers have different ways of delivering calls to different mobile providers. For instance, yes, it is a general rule that termination to mobile providers is more expensive than to fixed-line pretty much anywhere. But what if the underlying carrier isn't delivering it through an incumbent tandem but has a private interconnection (on different terms than standard handoff) with that mobile carrier because they pass enough traffic symmetrically? What if they do bill-and-keep? Now what's it matter? -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Michael wrote: > There IS life outside of the USA (shock, horror!) I am not making the metaphysical error of assuming otherwise. I'm just pointing out that routing complexity introduces exponentially with competition. > Anyone can download NZ's entire numbering plan down to suburb/town level from > the NZ Telecom wholesale website. I doubt they would be alone in this. Sure, I just gave you the link to NANPA's equivalent of that. What good is it going to do you, whether with regard to the US or in any other country that has more carriers than thou hast fingers? > Because LOTS of countries differenciate between landline and cellular calls. > From my list here I would say over 80% do. What do you mean by "countries differentiate?" Countries don't differentiate anything - carriers differentiate. And the nature of those differences is inextricably bound up in their interconnection agreements. Many international backbone carriers privately interconnect with mobile carriers and bypass the incumbent telco (if the country's laws allow this), allowing them to achieve lower termination rates. The point is that this landline vs. mobile distinction is not particularly universal, not particularly uniform, and therefore, not particularly useful. It's rather specious. -- Alex Balashov Evariste Systems Web: http://www.evaristesys.com/ Tel: (+1) (678) 954-0670 Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671 Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 04:10:47PM +1300, Michael wrote: > Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed country > numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. Here is some info for the UK :- http://www.ofcom.org.uk/telecoms/ioi/numbers/numbers_administered/ I've spotted a small number of errors in the data, and I can give you the details if you want. Cheers Ben ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Michael wrote: > Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed > country > numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. [snip] I'll avoid the good discussion on this thread that has been made already to date. The answer is: "It's not simple." I wish it was, but that data is typically in the hands of companies who do NOT want to share it, because errors on your part make money on their part, and those companies don't really want to see you exist at all in the first place. It would be great if this could be a shared resource of some sort, but I don't expect that we'll ever see that with E.164 numbering - the entrenched interests in that number space have zero interest in making the data available for many political, technical, and fiscal reasons. In the past, I've received a full breakdown of rates from my carriers for North America, as I have typically purchased directly from North American carriers who give me a 5, 6, or 7 tier model of prices across the country. LNP has confused the issue a bit, but not enough to warrant dips into the LNP database to determine if mobile numbers are being delivered on landline, or vice versa. For most of the world not in country code 1, I typically get just two rates: landline and mobile. In some very large nations, mobile may be broken down into a few carriers, but not often. Carriers almost always will NOT give out number ranges for what is mobile versus what is landline. They just say "Mobile: $V.WXYZ Landline: $A.BCDE" and leave it to me to figure out what is what. This, of course, is disingenuous - obviously they know what is mobile and what is landline, since they need it for their own billing purposes. But they would NEVER try to help out a customer like that, since it makes the customer more informed and less likely to just swallow an incorrect billing. So in a recent job (not Digium) I had to get the Telcordia GDDS database. Cost varies depending on what kind of use you have, but I seem to recall ranging from $20k per year to $Absurd per year. It was useful - recall that mobile rates can be 10x or even 20x what landline rates are, so billing your customers in the same bracket as you are billed by your vendors becomes startlingly important when you hit the millions of minutes per month mark in international termination. http://www.telcordia.com/products_services/trainfo/catalog_details.html http://www.trainfo.com/products_services/tra/downloads/gdds.pdf Then, you'll need to create a database that tracks what each one of your vendors gives you for mappings, create a linkage between their terminology or number formats to the GDDS database, and extract to create a routing table. Non-trivial, but not super-difficult. Get a big machine with gobs of RAM and store all of your databases in cache. The US I seem to recall had (for each carrier) something like 420,000 rows in one configuration. Multiply by the number of carriers you are using, add in the 60,000 or so rows for international per carrier... it gets to be a pretty plump routing table. "You must be _this_ tall to ride this wholesale ride." We created an external Java app that would take the origin number out of our Asterisk arrays and then do a database lookup. Total delay between receipt of the INVITE and the INVITE being out to the "best" vendor was around .3 seconds, so not bad. But there is a reason that there are whole companies doing routing and rating engines. JT --- John Todd email:jt...@digium.com Digium, Inc. | Asterisk Open Source Community Director 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville AL 35806 - USA direct: +1-256-428-6083 http://www.digium.com/ ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:57:20 you wrote: > On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Michael wrote: > > Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed > > country > > numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. > > [snip] > > I'll avoid the good discussion on this thread that has been made > already to date. The answer is: "It's not simple." I wish it was, > but that data is typically in the hands of companies who do NOT want > to share it, because errors on your part make money on their part, and > those companies don't really want to see you exist at all in the first > place. It would be great if this could be a shared resource of some > sort, but I don't expect that we'll ever see that with E.164 numbering > - the entrenched interests in that number space have zero interest in > making the data available for many political, technical, and fiscal > reasons. [snip] Thanks John. You are clearly someone who has experience, and is well informed, though your contribution reflects those of other people from USA, whereas from where I (and most others) are from, USA is only 1 or 2 billing destinations out of 100+. So the validity of the idea/suggested project still stands. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:57:20PM -0800, John Todd wrote: > On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Michael wrote: > > > Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed > > country > > numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. > [snip] > > I'll avoid the good discussion on this thread that has been made > already to date. The answer is: "It's not simple." Right. So for those of us who want to do simple things and avoid complicated stuff such as telephony in shoddy continent of North America, could you please provide data for your country? So far we have AU, IL and NZ. -- Tzafrir Cohen icq#16849755 jabber:tzafrir.co...@xorcom.com +972-50-7952406 mailto:tzafrir.co...@xorcom.com http://www.xorcom.com iax:gu...@local.xorcom.com/tzafrir ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:14:22 Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:57:20PM -0800, John Todd wrote: > > On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Michael wrote: > > > Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed > > > country > > > numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. > > > > [snip] > > > > I'll avoid the good discussion on this thread that has been made > > already to date. The answer is: "It's not simple." > > Right. So for those of us who want to do simple things and avoid > complicated stuff such as telephony in shoddy continent of North > America, could you please provide data for your country? > > So far we have AU, IL and NZ. We have Uruguay as well. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
I find the idea very interesting and quite useful. There is an ongoing effort on Wikipedia to gather as much information as possible, and keep it current: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_calling_codes Here is the data for Armenia (phone numbers are 11 digits): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2B374 regards, Vahan Alex Balashov wrote: > On Fri, December 12, 2008 10:57 pm, Michael wrote: > >> So therefore the over all USA and NA % is smaller from this part of the >> world, hence the up line can make enough profit over all that they are >> less likely to view it as a loosing proposition. > > That depends entirely on who your users are calling in North America. > > I know a customer that got a nice blended deal from a Tier 1 NA carrier > for terminating traffic from overseas. Said carrier is pulling their hair > out trying to figure out how to get rid of this contract; the customer is > cherry-picking the most expensive routes off that plan precisely because it > is blended. It's costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. > ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Hello, I believe that one of the most comprehensive resources, in terms of numbering plans, is on the ITU website : http://www.itu.int/oth/T0202.aspx?parent=T0202 For each country, it contains either an official document reflecting the current numbering plan or a link (e.g. for the UK and the US) to the national regulator. It's supposed to be authoritative since the national telcos or regulators have to supply and *keep up-to-date* this information. As regards France and New Caledonia at least, this is the best information that you can get - in terms of numbering plans - since they are provided by ARCEP (the French regulating agency) and OPT (the New Caledonia telco). I have found them very useful. I would expect the documents for all French overseas regions (Martinique, Indian Ocean, French Polynesia, etc.) to be of similar quality). Do keep us informed of the progress, this thread is very interesting. Best regards, Laurent Le 14.12.2008 18:20, Michael a écrit : > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:14:22 Tzafrir Cohen wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 10:57:20PM -0800, John Todd wrote: >>> On Dec 12, 2008, at 7:10 PM, Michael wrote: Is there any good free / accurate online resources with detailed country numbering plans? Failing that let's get something running ourselves. >>> [snip] >>> >>> I'll avoid the good discussion on this thread that has been made >>> already to date. The answer is: "It's not simple." >> Right. So for those of us who want to do simple things and avoid >> complicated stuff such as telephony in shoddy continent of North >> America, could you please provide data for your country? >> >> So far we have AU, IL and NZ. > > We have Uruguay as well. -- Laurent Steffan Consultant VOIP Web: http://VOIP.nc ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > Right. So for those of us who want to do simple things and avoid > complicated stuff such as telephony in shoddy continent of North > America, could you please provide data for your country? > > So far we have AU, IL and NZ. > Not that I am trying to put down the project, but I am struggling to understand how this will be useful to anyone. What will you actually *do* with this information once it is compiled? j ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Jeff LaCoursiere wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > >> Right. So for those of us who want to do simple things and avoid >> complicated stuff such as telephony in shoddy continent of North >> America, could you please provide data for your country? >> >> So far we have AU, IL and NZ. >> >> > > Not that I am trying to put down the project, but I am struggling to > understand how this will be useful to anyone. What will you actually *do* > with this information once it is compiled? > > j > > Step 1: Compile a list of country codes broken down into landline/mobile to the best of anyone's random guesswork. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!!! N. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Most vendors provide you a complete list of all destinations, descriptions, and rates when you sign up. It seems like the lists are already out there when/if you need them. Some countries, mobile rates differ, so they provide a large Excel sheet of all possible destinations, descriptions, and costs to load into your billing software. -Original Message- From: asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of SIP Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 18:33 To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources Jeff LaCoursiere wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2008, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > >> Right. So for those of us who want to do simple things and avoid >> complicated stuff such as telephony in shoddy continent of North >> America, could you please provide data for your country? >> >> So far we have AU, IL and NZ. >> >> > > Not that I am trying to put down the project, but I am struggling to > understand how this will be useful to anyone. What will you actually *do* > with this information once it is compiled? > > j > > Step 1: Compile a list of country codes broken down into landline/mobile to the best of anyone's random guesswork. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!!! N. ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
For informational purposes many people find ITU's web site useful, although not always as detailed as one would probably want: http://www.itu.int/itu-t/inr/nnp/index.html It even has event dates of official numbering plan changes. Best regards, Vlasis Hatzistavrou Kinetix Tele.com International Inc. 306 Victoria House, Victoria, Mahe, Seychelles Tel.: +302310556134 Fax: +302310556134 (ext. 0) GSM: +306977835653 e-mail: vh...@kinetixtele.com http://www.kinetixtele.com Postal address: Monastiriou 9 & Enotikon 54627 Thessaloniki Greece ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Country numbering plan resources
Laurent a écrit : > Hello, > HI > I believe that one of the most comprehensive resources, in terms > of numbering plans, is on the ITU website : > > http://www.itu.int/oth/T0202.aspx?parent=T0202 > > [...] > As regards France [...] The document for France is out of date, eg +33 87x xxx xxx ar no more personal numbers and replaced by +33 9xx xxx xxx -- Daniel ___ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
