Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Camlorn, biological cures would get to universal easily I would say. Gene therapy with CRISPR is a concept that can be applied to all genetic disorders pretty much, and if it becomes possible to cause neurons and structures in the eye etc to regrow themselves, then it is basicly a done deal. So one really huge disadvantage of implants, is that people can hack them, and do stuff to affect your perception of reality. Like, for example, people could make you hear sounds that wern't there, or see things that wern't there, and cause you to literally do anything, or affect your thoughts, or even body functions, such as those functions that the ottonomic nervous system does, and kill someone that way. Another negative aspect is simply that if anything happens to the implant, you are basicly stuck blind, or deaf or whatever you had before, whereas biological senses do not have this issue. Also, the fact that you would have to plug yourself into a wall would be incredibly annoying too.For these and many other reasons, if a biological cure vs implant situation existed, I would absolutely take the biological one. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565534/#p565534 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th They've already done experimental research with [auditory] and [visual] stimulation of specific regions of the brain, but the limited number of subjects, invasive surgeries, and highly specialized equipment makes further research tricky. Not that I like the idea, but a standardized implant like this thats easy to install/remove could pave the way for more seamless augmentations and rapid progress, of a kind anyway. So instead of having to get a retinal implant, a cochlear implant, a spinal implant, etc. you'd only need one Neuralink implant that could connect with external devices to relay information to/from the brain. Course, this doesn't mean its going to be useful for everyone, people who suffer brain damage, strokes, seisures, etc. may not be elegible, not to mention potential unforseen side effects. Or, you know, implant hacking, which is a real concern.This presentation is also just an early version, and is more for recruiting more technical expertise for further development. We'll have to see how it really pans out or how useful it actually ends up being,much like any tech product.@17The human eye, like everything else about you, is developed purely from stem-cells during fetal development via cellular communication and hormones. Understanding how cells and genes encode and organize themselves, and that signaling could unlock ways for cellular regeneration of specific organs, like how types of amphibians or lizards can regenerate limbs. Not quite gene therapy mind, but in the same neighborhood. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565533/#p565533 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th I honestly don't think that gene therapy, or the biological ways offer any way to restore a retina which has been removed, like in my case.Just chimed here to say that, time to sleep. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565526/#p565526 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th @15There's a difference between the state of the art today, and the state of the art in 20 years. Yes, cochlear implants aren't great. yes, the current artificial eyes aren't great either. But if you don't want V1 or V2, just wait until V3. This entire field is advancing at an incredible pace, literally faster than computer science did. The real problem isn't V1 is worse than sighted vision and I can't get V2 because I got V1. It's going to be V4 lets you see wi-fi, have a minimap, connect to your car via bluetooth, and also you can use it for fully immersive VR experiences and have telepathy, but shame you got V3 which makes you merely human. Musk's timelines are unrealistic, but Musk's idea of this being something that fundamentally changes the world isn't--it's just more like 50 years away for human-AI superbeing fusion thing, not 5.Cochlear implants are actually not in the brain, if I recall, and also for the most part they're from before computers could just be stuck in your ear, and also that entire field has been advancing as well.The biological cures aren't universal. When you say biological is better you're disregarding that brain implants are rapidly beginning to not suck, but more importantly it's going to take 20 to 30 years per disease, and the best you can hope for is to stop whatever it is from getting worse in most cases. People are excited about the brain implants because it's the closest thing we have to a universal blindness cure, and getting from here to there takes less effort than handling everything one by one. You're talking about 100 million dollars or so minimum start to finish for insert-blindness-cause, with a timeline of 20 or 30 years. For much of it, it'd be closer to half a billion, or higher. For those of us such as myself with super, super rare stuff where no one will ever put in that money, too bad. Or we chase the brain implants on the same timeline for a fraction of the cost and get everyone in one go.And before someone says but if I connect to my car via bluetooth, can't I be hacked? Yes you could, and this is why I'd probably not buy that one myself.This is just so frustrating though, to see people making this mistake. I already used the room-sized computer vs. laptop analogy, but it's really apropos. The brain implant people are showing you the room-sized computer version and saying laptop in 20-50 years and everyone's just kind of like "but that's impossible/will be worse" despite us already having done similar things. We've done the same thing with AI: surely computers won't be able to write poetry or compose original music, and now they can, and rather than say "hey, you know, that's interesting" we just move the bar higher and say but it's not actually doing what it claims, and there's no way to improve it. Over and over and over. I don't understand why people are so bad at understanding scientific progress. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565516/#p565516 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Camlorn, I think gene therapy is more feasable, especially with CRISPR. It alone wouldn't fix damage already done probably, but would at least stop progressive conditions getting worse, and you could then combine that with something like stem cell therapy to regenerate the preexisting damage.With mechanical cures, the sense you have will likely never even come remotely close to the regular sense, take cochlear implants for example, and the electricity flowing out of the implants could damage the brain and sensory organs over time. You would also have to get repeated surgeries for vv2, v3, v4 etc. Biological senses don't get bug fix releases. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565503/#p565503 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Camlorn, I think gene therapy is more feasable, especially with CRISPR. It alone wouldn't fix damage already done probably, but would at least stop progressive conditions getting worse, and you could then combine that with something like stem cell therapy to regenerate the preexisting damage. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565503/#p565503 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Musk has yet to do much new science. He's getting PR for less than it appears he's done. We've gone so far as monkeys controlling robotic arms. So far, all he's shown is that his company can manufacture something that's tied with the state of the art with his method, maybe a little bit ahead.@11You can't replace things that are missing via gene therapy in the general case, and it's also not at all possible to develop one cure. You have no choice but to do it per disease, at a cost of tens of millions of dollars each and the entire clinical trial thing, and then sometimes it'll be like "and then you have to get it at age 10 because it only stops it getting worse" etc etc etc. There's only hope for a biological cure for the really, really common stuff.@12I don't know why everyone seems to forget that you can literally just flip the off switch on this stuff and it, like, turns off. Quite apart from the stimulation problems probably not being that big a deal and probably being fixable in some fashion if they are, you can just turn the thing off. But yet every time this stuff comes up everyone just overlooks that aspect of it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565501/#p565501 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Well, this would probably be easier to do in an implant. They could deliver lower resolution images, and gradually increase the quality as the brain adapts. But I wil say this again, to force a blind person to learn how to use vision, it will be necesary to inhibit the non-speech capabilities of of hearing, iether through a drug or by other implants, or learning will be next to impossible, and the blind guy's hearing will just be used for everything as usual. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565485/#p565485 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th I would much rather have a biological cure. There are however concerns that we still have to overcome when thinking about brain implants or biological cures. One of the most prevalent of these is the over stimulation of the brain, when the affected sense is suddenly restored. I would imagine that this is especially true if your brain has been blind for it's entire life, because It's like, "What do I do with this foreign sensation. I know that there is a certain amount of learning that goes into this, like with cochlear implants, where eventually the implant would be less painful, and start showing some benefits, but I don't want my sight bad enough to go through the pain. Not to mention having tech in my body gives me the crawlies. I am not even willing to have eye microchips at this stage of my life. I think it's cool that the choice is out there, but it will be a good 20 years before I am even going to think about signing up, unless something seriously huge changes. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565450/#p565450 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Definately a biological treatment would be alot better, you wouldn't have v1, v2, or v3, of it and keep replacing it. alot of people are especially ethics professors are going crazy over that type of treatment, namely CRISPR, and trying as hard to block it from ever being developed. But honestly, I think gaining vision, or any sensory disability justifies the risk of having brain implants. The impact of having a sensory disability is very high on one's life, and alot of people would see that as a very small price to pay.MRI actually wouldn't be a problem, if these electrodes are aren't made of metal. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565432/#p565432 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Even though this is awesome and potentially life changing for certain people, I sure as hell would never trust anything that Musk wanted to put in my body.His promises are too off the wall, his fans are too quick to defend him, and his power over watchdogs and whistleblowers is too great.I guess it's almost always people like him that push us forward as a species so rapidly though, even if it's at the expense of many important things in the short term. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565399/#p565399 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Well, I am already thinking about a mystery thriller where this is used for spying on people.Any ways, curing blindness is always close to my hart as I see the pain in my daily life. And if a stupid wire rapped around my brain can get done the job, so be it. But, what about MRI scanns, you will have to take out that implant first, and if you forget, then your brain might be in serious trouble. Remember the robotic beas episode of black mirror, god that looked so gruesome. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565386/#p565386 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Hi,I actually hadn’t heard of Neural ink before I saw this topic, I checked out the stream last night have to say wow that’s seriously impressive. The fact they had actually already successfully implanted one of these devices in a pig (and the pig was still a very happy and contented pig with the implant present for a couple of months), not to mention they could map its movement through the output of the signals which were accurate to what the pig was actually doing and how that could potentially help cure paralysis was pretty incredible. I watched the whole thing, they talked about some of the stuff it might be able to do in the future, I appreciate that’s the future and pipe dreams as such , but it was pretty impressive mind blowing stuff which did include curing blindness, some of the other stuff they talked about was almost unbelievable it really was turning into a black mirror episode at a point (cookie implant anyone? For the black mirror fans here hahaha) thanks to the OP for posting the link to this, it was a fascinating watch. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565376/#p565376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Camlorn I am honestly not hopeful of this though. Recently on a rare disease group, a parent was told by some blind people it wasn't too bad to be blind, and that they should let their baby go blind instead of doing all the surgeries to preserve vision. Mind you, this is for a condition that most of the time causes at least two, sometimes three or more disabilities. It is simply idiotic to advise someone that being blind, while facing other sensory disabilities is a good idea. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565340/#p565340 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th @5Well...see the recent thread about being cured of blindness. See anyone using the phrase differently gifted or differently able. See anyone going on about deaf culture, preserving of by not curing deaf kids. Put another way, the answer to your question is it's now, and it's been going on for a long time. Brain implants are just still crackpot to most of the population, it's like those giant house-sized computers and everyone going wow isn't programming neat, I can't wait to have a laptop, but these sorts of discussions have already been happening. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565339/#p565339 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th When will the disability organizations start attacking projects like these like rabbid dogs? I feel alot of blind, and deaf people will fight tooth and claw against any sort of cure, whether it be biological or implantable against their condition.I would still prefer restoration of the natural biological sense than an implantable device. Sight might take a long time, but I suspect hearing will come much sooner, as it is a much less complex sense than sight is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565335/#p565335 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th When will the disability organizations start attacking projects like these like rabbid dogs? I feel alot of blind, and deaf people will fight tooth and claw against any sort of cure, whether it be biological or implantable against their condition. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565335/#p565335 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th We can do some simple reading with things like the aforementioned non-invasive options, but going the other way requires getting electricity to incredibly precise locations in some fashion or another through the bone of your skull, and that's the kind of thing where if you even turn your head haha oops now it's out of alignment and we're stimulating your pain center instead of your visual cortex, or something. Assuming that we could even get it working in the first place, which is unlikely because physics. It would require a major breakthrough to do this without surgery. As in on the order of the plucky 13-year-old genius who discovers how to make an FTL engine in mom's garage out of a lawn mower. But the surgeries to get these in and out are actually much safer than they seem already, and by the time this kind of thing hits the market it'll be one of those "All done, where do you want to go for lunch?" medical procedures. The real problems are about actually manufacturing the implants and dealing with rejection.It'll be interesting to see what is said, but don't expect too much. Tesla and SpaceX mostly were about taking technologies that we already had and/or areas of science that we already understand and putting them together through Musk-style it will be awesome so I will throw money at it approaches. Neuralink needs a bunch of new science, and also we have to do experiments on humans which hits regulatory and ethical issues. Whoever cracks the problem first makes infinite money, but my timeline is still 2050 for a workable artificial eye that's as good as what the sighted have, and the only way to do that faster would be to just start shoving random things into people's heads to see what happens. And lest someone say "but that's a great idea": there are fates worse than death, and hastily-designed brain implant gone wrong with no regulatory approval is a great way to find out all about them on a large scale. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565308/#p565308 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Non-invasive is not quite the word i'd use, seeing as they use a robot to drill a hole into a subjects skull to insert nano-wires into different regions of the brain. Other devices like more recent Quantum MEG headsets or EEGs like from the OpenBCI project are more non-invasive. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565299/#p565299 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Hi there,I was just asking myself what happened to this project some time ago.Those are the non-inwasive neural communication nets, aren't they?I wonder how much will such a device cost, it would be a great extension for Autohotkey. I was also thinking, how complicated would it be to transfer visual signal through these nets to user's brain. Guess we'll find out soon.Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565296/#p565296 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Re: Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th Hi there,I was just asking myself what happened to this project some time ago.Those are the non-inwasive neural communication nets, aren't they?I wonder how much will such a device cost, it would be a great extension for Autohotkey. I was also thinking, how complicated would it be to transfer visual signal through these nets to user's brain. Guess we'll find out soon.Best regardsARastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565296/#p565296 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th
Elon Musk NeuraLink Update: August 28th As reported by [CNET]:Elon Musk is giving an update on the progress of his Neural Interface project, including a working device during alive stream presentation today at 6:00pm ET. He's apparently hopes to have a device in a human patient by the end of the year.You can watch the livestream [here] which starts in 4 hours as of this post. There's also talk on the Neuralink website [here] that states they will post a link there shortly before it goes live at 3:00pm PST. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/565232/#p565232 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
