Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
Yes thats it if the output of the quipment does not change ( they electrical output and the soundwaves are the same ) and you still experience a difference, you are forced to find the explanation somewhere else :) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord wrote: i'd rather just listen to the music and enjoy a glass of wine. That's ok, we're fine with that. But what we're not fine with is you coming here and stating that your (utterly unscientific) experience demonstrates that cables do change character over time. Theory predicts they won't, proper experiments show they don't, and well understood psychology explains why you might think they do when they don't. In other words there's a mountain of evidence that is at odds with your anecdotal experience. Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
RonM wrote: He wasn't suggesting you did. What he WAS suggesting is that the mind is a flexible thing, and that it's easy to convince ourselves of things that have no objective reality. It's why systematic observation using controlled methodologies is so very important. i'd rather just listen to the music and enjoy a glass of wine. -- 4 TB Drobo--FW 800--mac mini--Ethernet Transporter-- Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax--Meridian G61 G61-- Nordost Red Dawn--Primare 30.3 Primare--Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord wrote: didn't move the speakers. He wasn't suggesting you did. What he WAS suggesting is that the mind is a flexible thing, and that it's easy to convince ourselves of things that have no objective reality. It's why systematic observation using controlled methodologies is so very important. LMS on a dedicated music server (FitPC3) Transporter (Ethernet) - main music listening, Onkyo receiver, Paradigm speakers Duet (WiFi) - home theater 5.1, Sony receiver, Energy speakers Boom 1 (WiFi) - work-space Boom 2 (WiFi) - various (deck, garage, etc.) Radio (WiFi) - home office Touch x 2 - awaiting deployment UE Radio - awaiting deployment Control - 2 Controllers (main listening, home theater, all others), Squeeze Remote (on Surface Pro 2), SqueezeControl (on Android mobile) RonM's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17029 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord wrote: so yes, cable does change over time; whether that's burn in or some other term i can't say. It's been my experience that perception changes over timecables remain constant. MichaelJ's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43215 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
interesting experience recently. i moved my system around, and needed longer speaker cables (25'). I had been using Ocos, an 8' pair, and liked it, but it's no longer available. i also needed something that was relatively small in diameter so i could run it either under my rug, or run it under the floor, via the basement. just to get things up and running i bought some inexpensive monoprice 12 gauge speaker wire, which sounded ok, but rather raw.it did improve a bit after the first week or so, but still pretty rough. then i found a dealer who still had some Ocos, and could make a 25' pair. it was expensive, but exactly what i thought i wanted, so I took the plunge. when i first hooked it up, it sounded ok, definitely not as rough as the monoprice, but also very flat sounding, almost lifeless and devoid of dynamics. figured it needed to burn in, so i left it alone and tried not to listen critically. two weeks in, and it still sounded broken, and the right speaker sounded much louder, with the image skewed to that side as well. granted, that speaker is in a corner, so you'd expect some emphasis on that speaker, but i'd never heard anything quite like this. i began to suspect that maybe they'd mis-terminated it, and the speakers were out of phase, so i swapped the +/- on one speaker. center image immediately improved, so i left it that way for a while, but it sounded disjointed, bass suffered, and i realized they'd been wired correctly after all. so i swapped +/- again, and voila! everything came into focus, center image remained, bass improved, tightened up now, not overly boomy like previously, and the sound had depth and space to it, and the sense of effortless openness and neutrality i associated with my prior pair of Ocos. by this time i'd been listening for a good 3 weeks, probably 75-100 hours. so yes, cable does change over time; whether that's burn in or some other term i can't say. -- 4 TB Drobo--FW 800--mac mini--Ethernet Transporter-- Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax--Meridian G61 G61-- Nordost Red Dawn--Primare 30.3 Primare--Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Monday Morning Howler
philippe_44 wrote: $700 for a USB cable ... I guess I'm going to start a new business :) Seriously, it is amazing to see that people can write such non-sense. Well, at least it is not as bad as some miracle medecine that can really hurt The USB cable is no use unless you also buy the audio quality Ethernet cables http://www.audiostream.com/content/audioquest-vodka-ethernet-cable-and-diamond-ethernet-cable at $1,195 for 1.5m bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103512 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Monday Morning Howler
Archimago wrote: In fact, in trying to think about the impact the Diamond USB cable was having on the music, the best analogy I could come up with was that regular USB cables give you something akin to a high-quality photograph of a sculptural object, whereas the Diamond USB cable enables you—figuratively speaking—to hold the sculptural object in your hands, to examine its contours, and to explore at length its variegated textures and surfaces. Nice :-). So maybe if we transmit some video data through this off a hard drive, we can get beautiful, almost-3D images to hold as well? I can see how these cables could be a big hit in the pono industry! That flowery prose above that you quoted is the real reason the writer is an high end audio equipment reviewer and not his golden ears. A silver tongued devil for some silver cables. Living Rm: Transporter-SimAudio pre/power amps-Vandersteen 3A Sign. sub Home Theater: Touch-Marantz HTR-Energy Veritas 2.1 Linn sub Computer Rm: Touch-Headroom Desktop w/DAC-Aragon amp-Energy Veritas 2.1 Energy sub Bedroom: Touch-HR Desktop w/DAC-Audio Refinement amp-Energy Veritas 2.0 Guest Rm: Duet-Sony soundbar Garage: SB3-JVC compact system Controls: iPeng; SB Controller; Moose Muso Server: SBS on dedicated windows 7 computer w/2 Drobos 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103512 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
MichaelJ wrote: It's been my experience that perception changes over timecables remain constant. perception burn in- interesting concept. -- 4 TB Drobo--FW 800--mac mini--Ethernet Transporter-- Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax--Meridian G61 G61-- Nordost Red Dawn--Primare 30.3 Primare--Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord wrote: perception burn in- interesting concept. Yes if you move speakers or move to another house, it sounds radically different for while until you get used to it . That said I've had bad and good rooms , the bad ones never sounded really good regardless off time to settle for me or the equipment . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
So what actually changes in the copper to alter (your) sound in speaker cable? Do the electrons age? Electrons change course? Electrons changing their orbit? Electrons reproducing? Maybe the great grand children of the original electrons are better at moving differently/faster? ;) toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord wrote: ... two weeks in, and it still sounded broken, and the right speaker sounded much louder, with the image skewed to that side as well. granted, that speaker is in a corner, so you'd expect some emphasis on that speaker, but i'd never heard anything quite like this. i began to suspect that maybe they'd mis-terminated it, and the speakers were out of phase, so i swapped the +/- on one speaker. center image immediately improved, so i left it that way for a while, but it sounded disjointed, bass suffered, and i realized they'd been wired correctly after all. so i swapped +/- again, and voila! everything came into focus, center image remained, bass improved, tightened up now, not overly boomy like previously, and the sound had depth and space to it, and the sense of effortless openness and neutrality i associated with my prior pair of Ocos. by this time i'd been listening for a good 3 weeks, probably 75-100 hours. so yes, cable does change over time; whether that's burn in or some other term i can't say. Interesting anecdote and I'm glad for you that eventually things sound as it should again. My concern is that you switched the polarity of ONE speaker and center image IMPROVED running out of phase like this!? And you were somehow able to listen to music while running the speakers like this for 3 weeks (75-100 hours) before switching back to proper polarity! In essence, you're suggesting that the magnitude of audible change for you was like the difference between playing in and out of phase until this burn-in allowed everything to sound as it should!? Wow... That kind of improvement you speak of *must* be measurable if it actually occurs! After all these decades, if burn-in can create effect of this magnitude, I'm quite sure it would be well documented already. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
While I do hear differences between speaker cables, I've never heard this break-in phenomenon. I've read that it is due to changes in the dielectric properties of the insulation, but I've never seen a reference to the physics or electrical engineering literature. Daverz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
Daverz wrote: While I do hear differences between speaker cables, I've never heard this break-in phenomenon. I've read that it is due to changes in the dielectric properties of the insulation, but I've never seen a reference to the physics or electrical engineering literature. You would not really :) of course dielectric properties can change a bit over the years but that's most likely a constant process it not stopping anywhere after x hours . It's one of those things that only happens in audio but are rarely mentioned in the rest of electrical science . This cable burn in is actually a knowable quantity . Just measure a cable before burn in and after burn in ,it's that simple . You will find that they measure the same . Hence the perceived difference is not due to any electrical or acoustical change . And if something would change what would it be , the only relevant properties in audio frequencies are LCR , more exotic quantities does not come into play your are not building a radar ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
netchord wrote: so yes, cable does change over time The only thing you have established is that you believe cable does change over time, not that they actually do. There's a fundamental difference to those two things. If you're content with your beliefs, by all means, no reason for you to make the effort necessary to prove the existence of such a phenomenon, much less the research into the causes. alfista's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=32396 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
Archimago wrote: Interesting anecdote and I'm glad for you that eventually things sound as it should again. My concern is that you switched the polarity of ONE speaker and center image IMPROVED running out of phase like this!? And you were somehow able to listen to music while running the speakers like this for 3 weeks (75-100 hours) before switching back to proper polarity! In essence, you're suggesting that the magnitude of audible change for you was like the difference between playing in and out of phase by 180-degrees until this burn-in allowed everything to sound as it should!? Wow... That kind of improvement you speak of *must* be measurable if it actually occurs! After all these decades, if burn-in can create effect of this magnitude, I'm quite sure it would be well documented already. A suggestion: Could you take a picture of your soundroom and speakers to show us what the set-up looks like so we have a sense of the acoustics in that room? didn't mean to imply i listened for 75 hours -after- switching polarity. in total, i probably had 75-100 hours since i replaced the monoprice w/ the Ocos. and i think the timing of the break in was coincidental, but wanted to put all the info out there. i tried to upload a pic along with my original post but for some reason the board would not allow it. -- 4 TB Drobo--FW 800--mac mini--Ethernet Transporter-- Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax--Meridian G61 G61-- Nordost Red Dawn--Primare 30.3 Primare--Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
cliveb wrote: That's ok, we're fine with that. But what we're not fine with is you coming here and stating that your (utterly unscientific) experience demonstrates that cables do change character over time. Theory predicts they won't, proper experiments show they don't, and well understood psychology explains why you might think they do when they don't. In other words there's a mountain of evidence that is at odds with your anecdotal experience. yes, i am fine with that. and i don't give a good goddam whether or not you're fine with my stating my experience. -- 4 TB Drobo--FW 800--mac mini--Ethernet Transporter-- Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax--Meridian G61 G61-- Nordost Red Dawn--Primare 30.3 Primare--Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
Mnyb wrote: Yes if you move speakers or move to another house, it sounds radically different for while until you get used to it . That said I've had bad and good rooms , the bad ones never sounded really good regardless off time to settle for me or the equipment . didn't move the speakers. -- 4 TB Drobo--FW 800--mac mini--Ethernet Transporter-- Wireworld Eclipse 6 coax--Meridian G61 G61-- Nordost Red Dawn--Primare 30.3 Primare--Ocos--Vienna Acoustics Beethoven/Maestro netchord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21002 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Cable burn in
MichaelJ wrote: It's been my experience that perception changes over timecables remain constant. Being a signal processing engineer, I'd really like to understand the physics at play in cable burn-in when they are so far away from any of their limit (I don't think we are counting oxydation, right :) and I can't see metal structural changes looking at the modest energy that goes through these). For some products I manufacture, we do burn-in, but there is a logic there why the normal use is close enough to some of the semicon limits so that brun-in/aging precipitate some changes / failures LMS 7.7.2 - 5 radio, 3 Boom, 4 Duet, 1 Touch, 1 SB2. Sonos 2xPLAY:1, PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, JBL OnBeat, XBMC, Foobar2000, XBoxOne (sort of) philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103502 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
