Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
There is a 20bit ladder Analog Devices AD5791 Transporter (modded) -> RG142 -> Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA monoblocks -> Sommer SPK240 -> self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
Julf wrote: > Would the fans of such devices care about any measurements anyway? Probably not :) I can't imagine taking the ladder DAC concept to 24bit it , but that actually exists ? The delta sigma ,one bit DAC and similar designs is just such an elegant way of solving the linearity problem . I have seen new ladder DAC's not only the old Phillips chips , a company called MSB does them with discrete hand built modules, the price is what you'd expect and that pretty much explains why it's not widely used . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
Mnyb wrote: > Unfortunately the measurment migth stilll be needed ? Are there not new > r2r ladder dacs popular in some camps of "fantasy audio" or "novelty > electronics" :) Would the fans of such devices care about any measurements anyway? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
Mnyb wrote: > Unfortunately the measurment migth stilll be needed ? Are there not new > r2r ladder dacs popular in some camps of "fantasy audio" or "novelty > electronics" :) These are typically made out of NOS chips that should have been tested 20-30 years ago when they were the best we had. Any golden ear reviewers who tests them will have to come up with some clever euphemisms to candy-coat their designed-in poor frequency response. They generally don't do measurements, anyway - right? arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
Unfortunately the measurment migth stilll be needed ? Are there not new r2r ladder dacs popular in some camps of "fantasy audio" or "novelty electronics" :) Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
arnyk wrote: > Oversampling does not address the problem of DAC amplitude linearity. > The first generation Philips players were oversampled, but used R-2R > ladder DACs that were therefore highly dependent of parts quality for > amplitude linearity. True. Fortunately most of us have moved on from ladder DACs (I do have fond memories of them - my first one was a 8-bit one made out of discrete resistors on the output of a parallel port, but that was 40 years ago). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
Julf wrote: > > He is basically verifying that it is a completely artificial test signal > designed to illustrate the symmetry of the DAC (and it is only relevant > on old-fashioned non-oversampling DACs anyway) > > > John_Atkinson_post_34 wrote: > > > > With the vast number of DACs now sigma-delta types, this test of > > obsolete, But I still include it because it also shows you at a glance > > how high above the DAC's noisefloor the LSB transition lies > > > > > Exactly. Also note that he correctly said that delta-sigma DACs eliminate the problem of bit-for-bit linearity. Any distortion in a sigma-delta DAC is in its analog components which number very few. Oversampling does not address the problem of DAC amplitude linearity. The first generation Philips players were oversampled, but used R-2R ladder DACs that were therefore highly dependent of parts quality for amplitude linearity. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
darrenyeats wrote: > I mentally glossed over it being a 1kHz cycle. So there are 44 samples > on each level of figure 9. The correct over-sampling behaviour is indeed > to sustain three plateaus, with Gibbs ringing in between. (If each level > were one sample, as I had in my mind, then a smooth sine would be > interpolated.) Exactly. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
darrenyeats wrote: > It's actually figure 9 I'm questioning. Fig.9 is an example of the > measurement made on every digital source reviewed by Stereophile. The > result varies in each test, and is a measurement at the analogue output. > Have a look at almost any review there e.g. > http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-tt-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements#Vur2dhfuZZR2KXxg.97 > figure 5. So yes, what they are doing is having an undithered 16-bit signal that has been padded to 24 bits (so that the DAC can't interpolate - it will try to reproduce the artificial signal unchanged). > Note this was discussed a while ago here: > http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?94054-Has-anyone-listened-to-the-NAD-C-390DD/page3. > Best to start at post #22. John Atkinson even replied in post #34, > though I didn't understand how his reply addressed my concern. He is basically verifying that it is a completely artificial test signal designed to illustrate the symmetry of the DAC (and it is only relevant on old-fashioned non-oversampling DACs anyway). "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
Thanks arnyk. I agree with what you say, I think. Nevertheless, I am curious as to how this 3-level waveform ever makes it out of a 24 bit, upsampling DAC - unless, as I infer, the "16 data" is actually nothing of the sort, but instead a 16-bit-like staircase rendered in a higher-rate, higher bit-depth file. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
darrenyeats wrote: > It's actually figure 9 I'm questioning. Fig.9 is an example of the > measurement made on every digital source reviewed by Stereophile. The > result varies in each test, and is a measurement at the analogue output. > Have a look at almost any review there e.g. > http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-hugo-tt-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements#Vur2dhfuZZR2KXxg.97 > figure 5. > I think that when dealing with sources that present themselves as having superior knowledge, one important thing is to keep one's eyes on the big picture and not get caught up in what may turn out to be minor or even irrelevant details that will only waste time or distract if taken too seriously. The big picture of digital audio applies to this situation as follows: An undithered digital signal is well known to cause problems, and the standard recipe for recording digital audio signals includes applying adequate dither. If someone chooses to evaluate audio gear with undithered digital signals, well its a free world and they can do what they want to do, but they are basically breaking applicable rules for making digital recordings. Out another way, a recording of music for general listening that lacks dither is mystery meat. There is no guarantee that it will fully exploit the media and equipment that you use with it. Furthermore, it can be shown that virtually every commercial recording of music is dithered, even if not intentionally dithered, as a natural consequence of being recorded in the real world as we know it. In short, this business of testing digital audio gear with undithered recordings is a technical rabbit hole. It is hard for me to imagine why someone who is well-informed about digital audio would in good faith, do such a thing. arnyk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=64365 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
It's actually figure 9 I'm questioning. Fig.9 is actually the measurement made on every digital source reviewed by Stereophile. The result varies in each test, and is a measurement of the analogue output. Note this was discussed a while ago here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?94054-Has-anyone-listened-to-the-NAD-C-390DD/page3 and John Atkinson even replied, though I didn't understand how his reply addressed my concern. Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
darrenyeats wrote: > I have a question about this. > http://www.stereophile.com/content/quality-lies-details-page-6#DQEqFEA63RHRhQcK.97 > > I thought such a waveform would be impossible with 16 bit data when fed > into an upsampling, 24 bit DAC. I thought the samples would be > interpolated at higher rate and greater bit depth, leading to a smooth > sine even at -90dB. But looking at any number of reviews on Stereophile, > the stair steps (with Gibbs ringing) are seen. > > I infer that the "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB" is a deliberately > staircased waveform delivered in a hi-rez container. My question: is > this inference correct? If not, DAC upsampling doesn't quite do what I > thought it did! Note the explanation. "Fig.8 shows the ideal waveshape (assuming an infinite bandwidth);", so the so-called "signal" is actually just a simulated graphic (as a real system wouldn't have infinite bandwidth). It continues with "a nearly perfect reproduction of this signal is shown in fig.9, which overlays the fig.8 waveform with small amounts of Gibbs Phenomenon ringing at the bit transitions owing to the CD system's limited, 22kHz bandwidth.", leading me to think that that waveform, too, only exists in a plotting program, not as a real signal. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Question about Stereophile's "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB"
I have a question about this. http://www.stereophile.com/content/quality-lies-details-page-6#DQEqFEA63RHRhQcK.97 I thought such a waveform would be impossible with 16 bit data when fed into an upsampling, 24 bit DAC. I thought the samples would be interpolated at higher rate and greater bit depth, leading to a smooth sine even at -90dB. But looking at any number of reviews on Stereophile, the stair steps (with Gibbs ringing) are seen. I infer that the "16 bit undithered sine at -90dB" is a deliberately staircased waveform delivered in a hi-rez container. My question: is this inference correct? If not, DAC upsampling doesn't quite do what I thought it did! Check it, add to it! http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/ SB Touch darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105769 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RCA splitter cable makes signal quiet ?
:) and all equipment survived Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105764 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RCA splitter cable makes signal quiet ?
Yeah I know. Feel pretty stupid - but we did have a new baby last week so may be sleep deprivation related.. :) Touch x 2, Booms x 2, SqueezeCommander on Galaxy S3 (Duet Receiver + Controllers x 2 - semi-retired) swayzak's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16575 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105764 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] RCA splitter cable makes signal quiet ?
You use splitters to make it possible to connect one output to several inputs ! Not connect several outputs to one input , this is not a good idea . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105764 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
