Re: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

[Anthony Smith]

Water ballast is double edged sword.  It magnifies the outcomes of you bad
decisions just as much as magnifies the effect of your good decisions.  

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Daryl
Mackay
Sent: Saturday, 13 July 2013 12:43 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

 

Please also consider increased likelihood of something going wrong on these
big hot days where you will want to load up to the max. Higher all up weight
also means more stress on the launching system (cable break etc).

High density altitude days equal reduced engine power from your launching
engine when you will also need a higher TAS for the same IAS. Both factors
result in much longer T/O runs and a lower ROC. An abort on the now reduced
RWY length available at the higher groundspeed resulting from the higher TAS
combined with a higher AUW will demand much more wheel breaking power to
avoid the end fence. The lower rate of climb also reduces the available
landing options and again the higher TAS for the same IAS gives the higher
groundspeed that has to be dissipated somehow in your choosen landing area.
These big days usually mean more glider activity to navigate through too.

ln my accident, just when I thought I had it all under control the wheel
brake bowden cable end stripped off under the load I was applying (I must
have been stressed too) and I ran into a storm drain at very low speed but
still wrote the glider off. I was very lucky to walk away from the wreck.

I have come to the conclusion that water breaks gliders.

I have to consider the above on every flight before I decide how much water
I might load for optimal speed performance.

On 13/07/2013 10:17 AM, "Adam Woolley" mailto:go_soar...@hotmail.com> > wrote:

I think that's a valid point Anthony, Maurie Bradney suggests in flying
further & faster part 1 - to fly 2-3kg/sq.m heavier if you've got good
chance of having thermal markers at a comp.

I'm working the polar10.xls spreadsheet atm to try & figure out optimum
loadings, though really just stumbling around. Most text books for memory
have always just said, look at your polar - but w/o ever showing exactly how
to do it..


Cheers,
WPP

On 13/07/2013, at 12:04, "Anthony Smith" mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net> > wrote:

> Depends:
>
> Classic MacCready climb and glide theory will predict an optimum wing
> loading for the average climb of a particular day for a particular glider
> type.
>
> More recently, optimum wing loading is also defined by how good you are at
> finding the good air during the cruise.
>
> When you run a mathematical simulation, you get the classical MacCready
> theory optimum and a second optimum at the heavy wing loading end.
Whether
> the heavy end gives a better x-country speed depends on how much 'good air
> in the cruise' you factor in (ie pilot skill).
>
> I expect that most of the hot pilots load up to full and then dump
> sufficient water to give them a climb rate  in their comfort zone and then
> go like stink without stopping to turn unless they absolutely have to.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
 ] On Behalf Of Adam
> Woolley
> Sent: Saturday, 13 July 2013 8:58 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?
>
> G'day All,
>
> Just wondering whether anyone know's how to calculate the optimum wing
> loading for an average climb rate?  I've just bought a Ventus 1a (UKM) and
> need to figure out how to fly optimally with water again!
>
>
> SeeYou,
> WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[DMcD]

>> If we have to run intercontinental surface transport on sails because run 
>> out of oil, most of the people on the planet are going to starve
>> Think food. Fertiliser, manufacture of, distribution, planting, harvesting 
>> and transport to consumer. Boats got nothing to do with it

And did we not do these things before oil? And before coal?  Was there
no food in the past?

We absolutely have to reduce our dependence on non-renewables so why
not reduce oil consumption by looking at alternatives such as wind,
wave, solar, bio-fuels etc. It's probably the most exciting
engineering challenge for centuries. And so is the hundred mile food
basket but not for engineering reasons. Who needs a par-bake from
Ireland in Australia?

Near Launceston, there's a steam museum full of traction engines. One
wears a sign which reads "Give me wood and water and I'll work."

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

[Daryl Mackay]

Please also consider increased likelihood of something going wrong on these
big hot days where you will want to load up to the max. Higher all up
weight also means more stress on the launching system (cable break etc).

High density altitude days equal reduced engine power from your launching
engine when you will also need a higher TAS for the same IAS. Both factors
result in much longer T/O runs and a lower ROC. An abort on the now reduced
RWY length available at the higher groundspeed resulting from the higher
TAS combined with a higher AUW will demand much more wheel breaking power
to avoid the end fence. The lower rate of climb also reduces the available
landing options and again the higher TAS for the same IAS gives the higher
groundspeed that has to be dissipated somehow in your choosen landing area.
These big days usually mean more glider activity to navigate through too.

ln my accident, just when I thought I had it all under control the wheel
brake bowden cable end stripped off under the load I was applying (I must
have been stressed too) and I ran into a storm drain at very low speed but
still wrote the glider off. I was very lucky to walk away from the wreck.

I have come to the conclusion that water breaks gliders.

I have to consider the above on every flight before I decide how much water
I might load for optimal speed performance.
On 13/07/2013 10:17 AM, "Adam Woolley"  wrote:

> I think that's a valid point Anthony, Maurie Bradney suggests in flying
> further & faster part 1 - to fly 2-3kg/sq.m heavier if you've got good
> chance of having thermal markers at a comp.
>
> I'm working the polar10.xls spreadsheet atm to try & figure out optimum
> loadings, though really just stumbling around. Most text books for memory
> have always just said, look at your polar - but w/o ever showing exactly
> how to do it..
>
>
> Cheers,
> WPP
>
> On 13/07/2013, at 12:04, "Anthony Smith" 
> wrote:
>
> > Depends:
> >
> > Classic MacCready climb and glide theory will predict an optimum wing
> > loading for the average climb of a particular day for a particular glider
> > type.
> >
> > More recently, optimum wing loading is also defined by how good you are
> at
> > finding the good air during the cruise.
> >
> > When you run a mathematical simulation, you get the classical MacCready
> > theory optimum and a second optimum at the heavy wing loading end.
>  Whether
> > the heavy end gives a better x-country speed depends on how much 'good
> air
> > in the cruise' you factor in (ie pilot skill).
> >
> > I expect that most of the hot pilots load up to full and then dump
> > sufficient water to give them a climb rate  in their comfort zone and
> then
> > go like stink without stopping to turn unless they absolutely have to.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> > [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
> > Woolley
> > Sent: Saturday, 13 July 2013 8:58 AM
> > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?
> >
> > G'day All,
> >
> > Just wondering whether anyone know's how to calculate the optimum wing
> > loading for an average climb rate?  I've just bought a Ventus 1a (UKM)
> and
> > need to figure out how to fly optimally with water again!
> >
> >
> > SeeYou,
> > WPP
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

[Adam Woolley]

I think that's a valid point Anthony, Maurie Bradney suggests in flying further 
& faster part 1 - to fly 2-3kg/sq.m heavier if you've got good chance of having 
thermal markers at a comp. 

I'm working the polar10.xls spreadsheet atm to try & figure out optimum 
loadings, though really just stumbling around. Most text books for memory have 
always just said, look at your polar - but w/o ever showing exactly how to do 
it..


Cheers,
WPP

On 13/07/2013, at 12:04, "Anthony Smith"  wrote:

> Depends:
> 
> Classic MacCready climb and glide theory will predict an optimum wing
> loading for the average climb of a particular day for a particular glider
> type.
> 
> More recently, optimum wing loading is also defined by how good you are at
> finding the good air during the cruise.
> 
> When you run a mathematical simulation, you get the classical MacCready
> theory optimum and a second optimum at the heavy wing loading end.  Whether
> the heavy end gives a better x-country speed depends on how much 'good air
> in the cruise' you factor in (ie pilot skill).
> 
> I expect that most of the hot pilots load up to full and then dump
> sufficient water to give them a climb rate  in their comfort zone and then
> go like stink without stopping to turn unless they absolutely have to.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
> Woolley
> Sent: Saturday, 13 July 2013 8:58 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?
> 
> G'day All,
> 
> Just wondering whether anyone know's how to calculate the optimum wing
> loading for an average climb rate?  I've just bought a Ventus 1a (UKM) and
> need to figure out how to fly optimally with water again!
> 
> 
> SeeYou,
> WPP
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
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> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

[Anthony Smith]

Depends:

Classic MacCready climb and glide theory will predict an optimum wing
loading for the average climb of a particular day for a particular glider
type.

More recently, optimum wing loading is also defined by how good you are at
finding the good air during the cruise.

When you run a mathematical simulation, you get the classical MacCready
theory optimum and a second optimum at the heavy wing loading end.  Whether
the heavy end gives a better x-country speed depends on how much 'good air
in the cruise' you factor in (ie pilot skill).

I expect that most of the hot pilots load up to full and then dump
sufficient water to give them a climb rate  in their comfort zone and then
go like stink without stopping to turn unless they absolutely have to.

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
Woolley
Sent: Saturday, 13 July 2013 8:58 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

G'day All,

Just wondering whether anyone know's how to calculate the optimum wing
loading for an average climb rate?  I've just bought a Ventus 1a (UKM) and
need to figure out how to fly optimally with water again!


SeeYou,
WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Mike Borgelt]

At 10:52 AM 13/07/2013, you wrote:
>> If we have to run intercontinental surface transport on sails 
because run out of oil, most of the people on the planet are going to starve.


I'd forgotten about that obvious truth.



We could have a really interesting discussion on this but certain 
people will whine.


I'll just say you missed the point which is more subtle than you 
assumed. Think food. Fertiliser, manufacture of, distribution, 
planting, harvesting and transport to consumer.

Boats got nothing to do with it.

Mike


Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Tom Wilksch]

Well Said!

Tom

-Original Message- 
From: DMcD

Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 10:22 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

If we have to run intercontinental surface transport on sails because run 
out of oil, most of the people on the planet are going to starve.


I'd forgotten about that obvious truth.

A hundred and forty or so years ago, the windjammers were just
appearing. Sailing ships with steel hulls, masts and rigging which
could be driven hard, gunnel down, for weeks on end. Passage times
from London to Melbourne, London to San Francisco, London to
Calcultta, varied year on year by a matter of days. Not months, but
days… and you are correct, most of the people on the planet starved
back then.

It's difficult to find statistics for this last claim of yours but the
windjammer statistics are easy to find.

Steam came in because it was convenient, safer and used smaller crews,
not because all of a sudden the Trade Winds failed or the sailing
ships did not make reliable passages. The winds are still there and
blowing strong and will continue as long as the sun shines and the
world turns.

Now, lets imagine we build windjammers from modern materials, spectra
lines, roller reefing, carbon spars etc. and we used modern weather
forecasting to make sure that the boats are easy to run, crews are
small and the ships can make the best use of the weather… And for
crossing the horse latitudes and berthing, we'd use a donkey engine,
just as before.  Would this cause most of the people on the planet to
starve? Or rather, would it cause any more people to starve than are
currently starving?

Starvation is not caused or ameliorated by oil burning transport. It's
mostly caused by poverty and poverty won't change just because you
pour oil over it… look at most of the oil producing states in Africa.

Surely, when you have a finite resource, it makes the most sense to
make sure it lasts as long as possible? Once upon a time, Australia
had 2-300 years reserves of coal and iron. Last year reserves were
down to 70-90 years. Does this make sense?

Every time I drive through the Hunter valley and see the endless coal
trains carrying mountains worth of our children's future off to burn
in some hot country,  I think there has to be a better way. Given the
choices of the current version of nuclear energy and the enormous
associated risks and problems or engineering alternatives with
creative thinking, doing with less or heaven forfend, doing without,
I'd take the any other course than nuclear every day. It is not up to
me to mortgage the future of future generations.

I am not as omniscient as you Mike B and I am sure you'll be able to
correct my errors. I can hardly wait.  :-)

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[DMcD]

>> If we have to run intercontinental surface transport on sails because run 
>> out of oil, most of the people on the planet are going to starve.

I'd forgotten about that obvious truth.

A hundred and forty or so years ago, the windjammers were just
appearing. Sailing ships with steel hulls, masts and rigging which
could be driven hard, gunnel down, for weeks on end. Passage times
from London to Melbourne, London to San Francisco, London to
Calcultta, varied year on year by a matter of days. Not months, but
days… and you are correct, most of the people on the planet starved
back then.

It's difficult to find statistics for this last claim of yours but the
windjammer statistics are easy to find.

Steam came in because it was convenient, safer and used smaller crews,
not because all of a sudden the Trade Winds failed or the sailing
ships did not make reliable passages. The winds are still there and
blowing strong and will continue as long as the sun shines and the
world turns.

Now, lets imagine we build windjammers from modern materials, spectra
lines, roller reefing, carbon spars etc. and we used modern weather
forecasting to make sure that the boats are easy to run, crews are
small and the ships can make the best use of the weather… And for
crossing the horse latitudes and berthing, we'd use a donkey engine,
just as before.  Would this cause most of the people on the planet to
starve? Or rather, would it cause any more people to starve than are
currently starving?

Starvation is not caused or ameliorated by oil burning transport. It's
mostly caused by poverty and poverty won't change just because you
pour oil over it… look at most of the oil producing states in Africa.

Surely, when you have a finite resource, it makes the most sense to
make sure it lasts as long as possible? Once upon a time, Australia
had 2-300 years reserves of coal and iron. Last year reserves were
down to 70-90 years. Does this make sense?

Every time I drive through the Hunter valley and see the endless coal
trains carrying mountains worth of our children's future off to burn
in some hot country,  I think there has to be a better way. Given the
choices of the current version of nuclear energy and the enormous
associated risks and problems or engineering alternatives with
creative thinking, doing with less or heaven forfend, doing without,
I'd take the any other course than nuclear every day. It is not up to
me to mortgage the future of future generations.

I am not as omniscient as you Mike B and I am sure you'll be able to
correct my errors. I can hardly wait.  :-)

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

[Mike Borgelt]

Adam,

This is discussed in Helmut Reichmann's book as well as most 
sailplane design texts.
Funny thing is, when I look at the graphs, current sailplanes are all 
flying at wing loadings way above the optimum according to the calculations.
I doubt many people don't simply fill right up to gross weight and 
dump if necessary.


Mike






At 09:28 AM 13/07/2013, you wrote:

G'day All,

Just wondering whether anyone know's how to calculate the optimum 
wing loading for an average climb rate?  I've just bought a Ventus 
1a (UKM) and need to figure out how to fly optimally with water again!



SeeYou,
WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 118, Issue 13

[Mike Borgelt]

At 08:35 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:
Thanks you to most of you who have provided informative responses! 
I'm off to throw an orange-bellied parrot on the barbie



Thanks & Regards,

Nelson Handcock
0409 149919




Thanks for linking to the article.

A quick back of the envelope calculation shows that a tens of 
megawatt wind farm (like the one in question - 46.5Mw capacity) will 
possibly have wake turbulence comparable to a medium sized passenger 
airliner like a  737.


The problem with wake turbulence isn't the magnitude but the fact 
that the energy is concentrated in small areas. No problem until you 
run into them. Under normal circumstances I would expect the wake 
turbulence downwind of a wind farm to be dispersed and relatively 
harmless but if conditions are just right (wind the right direction 
and strength, presence of an inversion, right spacing of the turbines 
etc) this may not be so. Might make a nice academic research project 
for someone. It would be nice to know. As Mythbusters would say, I'll 
call that one plausible for now.



Mike


Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

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[Aus-soaring] Optimum wing loadings for climb rates?

[Adam Woolley]

G'day All,

Just wondering whether anyone know's how to calculate the optimum wing loading 
for an average climb rate?  I've just bought a Ventus 1a (UKM) and need to 
figure out how to fly optimally with water again!


SeeYou,
WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Tim Shirley]

Hi all,

 

Bob I do urge you not to leave the list.

 

I’m a supporter of free speech on this forum.  I don’t think it is a good
idea that contributors here are limited in what they can say, or the topics
they choose to pursue.  Readers should be free to judge contributors by the
nature and content of their contributions.  The Delete key is not hard to
press.

 

And back on the topic, in a fashion:

 

“Eppur si muove”

 

Cheers

 

Tim

Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Bob Ward
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013 19:57
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

 

Thanks Mark for that advice? Maturity? Civility? Adult? Perhaps it would be
best if I simply un-scribe, as I did once for exactly the same reason . A
site such as this without a moderator, undoubtedly looses many more
participants than it attracts due insulting , un-civil posts by one
particularly obnoxious contributor.

 

Regards

Bob Ward   

 

From: Mark Newton   

Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 7:05 PM

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
  

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

 

 

On 12/07/2013, at 7:00 PM, Bob Ward  wrote:

 

Is there a moderator on this site? If so, is he asleep ?

1.  sulting 

It isn't a site, it's a mailing list.

 

It's always been unmoderated, relying on the maturity and civility of its
adult participants.

 

Sometimes that's been, perhaps, a tough ask.

 

  - mark

 

 

  _  

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  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3349 / Virus Database: 3204/6483 - Release Date: 07/11/13

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 118, Issue 13

[Nelson Handcock]

ure
> for the last 120 years. If we have to run intercontinental surface
> transport on sails because run out of oil, most of the people on the
> planet are going to starve. Some greenies think this is a feature, not a
> bug.
> LFTR reactors, properly developed, means you can synthesize
> hydrocarbon fuels from water and CO2 in the air. Just a matter of
> making energy cheap enough.
>
> I prefer the Arthur C. Clarke version of the future of ships "for all
> but a few centuries at the dawn of history, the word 'ship' meant
> spaceship" :-)
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
> instrumentation since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784:  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
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>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 17:51:27 +1000
> From: Mike Borgelt 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?
> To: Jim Staniforth ,   "Discussion of issues
> relating to Soaring in Australia."
> 
> Message-ID: <3c77a3$n0g...@ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>
> At 05:16 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:
> >   One 45-minute flight last week (testing a new vario) I flew with
> > three eagles, no condors and dozens of hawks, etc. There are only 5
> > or 6 thousand wind turbines within 50km.
> >Jim
> >
> >
>
>
> Which proves you flew for 45 minutes. Were you asleep during any
> science classes you may have taken?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
> instrumentation since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784:  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> -- next part --
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> >
>
> --
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2013 17:55:44 +1000
> From: Mike Borgelt 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> 
> Message-ID: <3c77a3$n0g...@ipmail07.adl2.internode.on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
>
> What a wonderful place to fly. I can hardly wait until this comes here.
>
> Mike
>
>
> At 05:23 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:
> >Not highly scientific, but a pretty good read about this topic:
> >"Wind Turbines and Light Aircraft"
> >http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/126719/36
> >
> >Enjoy
> >Urs
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> >[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of emilis
> >prelgauskas
> >Sent: Donnerstag, 11. Juli 2013 20:35
> >To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> >Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?
> >
> >
> >On 12/07/2013, at 12:32 PM, DMcD wrote:
> > > No doubt wind turbines can cause turbulence but it is highly likely
> > > that the ridge on which they were sited would cause far more
> > > turbulence. My narrow experience suggests that many fixed wing &
> > > helicopter aircraft pilots don't take this enough into account.
> >
> >On a similar vein a retired airline captain this year soared the Morning
> >Glory in his Musketeer.
> >He commented that in his youth they all flew across the Glory in DC3s in
> >that country complaining about the power settings needed; not
> understanding
> >the potential for flying along the lift lines.
> >
> >___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Bob Ward]

Thanks Mark for that advice? Maturity? Civility? Adult? Perhaps it would be 
best if I simply un-scribe, as I did once for exactly the same reason . A site 
such as this without a moderator, undoubtedly looses many more participants 
than it attracts due insulting , un-civil posts by one particularly obnoxious 
contributor.

Regards
Bob Ward   

From: Mark Newton 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 7:05 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?


On 12/07/2013, at 7:00 PM, Bob Ward  wrote:


  Is there a moderator on this site? If so, is he asleep ?
  1.. sulting 

It isn't a site, it's a mailing list.

It's always been unmoderated, relying on the maturity and civility of its adult 
participants.

Sometimes that's been, perhaps, a tough ask.

  - mark






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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Mark Newton]

On 12/07/2013, at 7:00 PM, Bob Ward  wrote:

> Is there a moderator on this site? If so, is he asleep ?

It isn't a site, it's a mailing list.

It's always been unmoderated, relying on the maturity and civility of its adult 
participants.

Sometimes that's been, perhaps, a tough ask.

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Bob Ward]

Is there a moderator on this site? If so, is he asleep ?

Bob Ward

From: Mike Borgelt 
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 5:55 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

What a wonderful place to fly. I can hardly wait until this comes here.

Mike


At 05:23 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:

  Not highly scientific, but a pretty good read about this topic:
  "Wind Turbines and Light Aircraft"
  http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/126719/36

  Enjoy
  Urs

  -Original Message-
  From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
  [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of emilis
  prelgauskas
  Sent: Donnerstag, 11. Juli 2013 20:35
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?


  On 12/07/2013, at 12:32 PM, DMcD wrote:
  > No doubt wind turbines can cause turbulence but it is highly likely 
  > that the ridge on which they were sited would cause far more 
  > turbulence. My narrow experience suggests that many fixed wing & 
  > helicopter aircraft pilots don't take this enough into account.

  On a similar vein a retired airline captain this year soared the Morning
  Glory in his Musketeer.
  He commented that in his youth they all flew across the Glory in DC3s in
  that country complaining about the power settings needed; not understanding
  the potential for flying along the lift lines.

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Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Mike Borgelt]

What a wonderful place to fly. I can hardly wait until this comes here.

Mike


At 05:23 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:

Not highly scientific, but a pretty good read about this topic:
"Wind Turbines and Light Aircraft"
http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/126719/36

Enjoy
Urs

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of emilis
prelgauskas
Sent: Donnerstag, 11. Juli 2013 20:35
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?


On 12/07/2013, at 12:32 PM, DMcD wrote:
> No doubt wind turbines can cause turbulence but it is highly likely
> that the ridge on which they were sited would cause far more
> turbulence. My narrow experience suggests that many fixed wing &
> helicopter aircraft pilots don't take this enough into account.

On a similar vein a retired airline captain this year soared the Morning
Glory in his Musketeer.
He commented that in his youth they all flew across the Glory in DC3s in
that country complaining about the power settings needed; not understanding
the potential for flying along the lift lines.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Mike Borgelt]

At 05:16 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:
  One 45-minute flight last week (testing a new vario) I flew with 
three eagles, no condors and dozens of hawks, etc. There are only 5 
or 6 thousand wind turbines within 50km.

Jim





Which proves you flew for 45 minutes. Were you asleep during any 
science classes you may have taken?


Mike




Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Mike Borgelt]

At 07:17 AM 12/07/2013, you wrote:

I found the report (below), it's about the Gunning Wind Farm, built
along the Cullerin ranges.
Turbulence? 9km directly downwind of a range of hills? Has anyone
heard of a phenomenon that might cause such turbulence?




I found the "mountain range" on Google Earth.  It appears to oriented 
roughly SE/NW. With 5 to 8 knots of wind I hardly think there is 
going to be a lot of turbulence 9 km downwind of a range of hills 200 
to 300 feet higher than the surrounding countryside. With such light 
winds there probably isn't going to be a lot of random turbulence to 
break up any organised vortices. When the pilot says he determined 
the turbulence was from the wind farm, I can only presume he flew 
around figuring out the boundaries of the turbulence. The ABC report 
seems to be a model of non hysterical reporting and the air ag guys 
are just wanting a little research done on the likely risk. Seems 
reasonable. Don't forget these guys fly in the weeds all the time and 
will be familiar with winds and turbulence at low level.


For D MC D - we've been going to run out of oil in the near future 
for the last 120 years. If we have to run intercontinental surface 
transport on sails because run out of oil, most of the people on the 
planet are going to starve. Some greenies think this is a feature, not a bug.
LFTR reactors, properly developed, means you can synthesize 
hydrocarbon fuels from water and CO2 in the air. Just a matter of 
making energy cheap enough.


I prefer the Arthur C. Clarke version of the future of ships "for all 
but a few centuries at the dawn of history, the word 'ship' meant 
spaceship" :-)


Mike




Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Urs Rothacher]

Not highly scientific, but a pretty good read about this topic:
"Wind Turbines and Light Aircraft"
http://experimenter.epubxp.com/i/126719/36

Enjoy
Urs

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of emilis
prelgauskas
Sent: Donnerstag, 11. Juli 2013 20:35
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?


On 12/07/2013, at 12:32 PM, DMcD wrote:
> No doubt wind turbines can cause turbulence but it is highly likely 
> that the ridge on which they were sited would cause far more 
> turbulence. My narrow experience suggests that many fixed wing & 
> helicopter aircraft pilots don't take this enough into account.

On a similar vein a retired airline captain this year soared the Morning
Glory in his Musketeer.
He commented that in his youth they all flew across the Glory in DC3s in
that country complaining about the power settings needed; not understanding
the potential for flying along the lift lines.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?

[Jim Staniforth]

  One 45-minute flight last week (testing a new vario) I flew with three 
eagles, no condors and dozens of hawks, etc. There are only 5 or 6 thousand 
wind turbines within 50km.
Jim





 From: Mike Borgelt 
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
 
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wind Turbines cause turbulence risk?
 


At 12:05 PM 12/07/2013, you wrote:

Who is "they", Scott? 
This small sample took about 5 minutes. I Googled  "california
wind farm bird deaths"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Pass_Wind_Farm
http://grist.org/news/obama-administration-loves-wind-energy-hates-birds/
 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2013/05/16/the-esa-a-rule-or-more-of-a-guideline/
 
http://www.cfact.org/2013/03/18/wind-turbines-kill-up-to-39-million-birds-a-year/
 
http://www.nature.com/news/the-trouble-with-turbines-an-ill-wind-1.10849 
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/04/wind-farms-and-birds
There's lots more.

For something that you allege is not a problem a lot of people seem to be
worried about it.

Then again, a lot of people seem to be worried about climate change
caused by extra CO2 for which there is far less evidence. So far the only
effect seems to be a greening of the planet as plants are less stressed
by low CO2. Even that may be a cyclical effect as we haven't had
satellites for all that long although this seems encouraging: 
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/07/11/another-benefit-of-increased-co2-trees-use-water-more-efficiently/#more-89678
 . You can go to the Nature site and read the whole paper.

So windmills are great because the "fuel" is free, right? The
fuel is actually spare parts which like the original wind
"mill" (it grinds subsidies out of taxpayers) are made from
steel (mining, coal, iron), carbon fiber (made from oil and energy),
epoxy resins(likewise), concrete(big CO2 producer), lots of
transport(mostly diesel powered) to install and maintain as well as
requiring lots of copper wire, power lines and roads to areas that would
not normally have them. All this for an intermittent power source that
requires backup (think twice the capital cost or more per Megawatt of
reliable, available electrical energy), subsidies and blights the natural
landscape. Heck, what's not to like? It will even make hill soaring in
glider more "exciting" in some places.

One more thing. Is it really a good idea to remove energy from the air
near the surface downwind of wind farms? For the money wasted on these
monstrosities we could have LFTR power for next few thousand years. 
LFTRs in 5 minutes-
Thorium Reactors - YouTube

Mike







Try doing actual research. They
have disproven all of those bull shit myths.
>
>Scott
>
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5784
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 : 
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