Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
Excellent thoughts Harry. I am a very indifferent competition pilot but I have been in a few comps. My appreciation is that the worst danger in the comps I have been in involve gaggles before the start. Second danger area is the finish. As you say The major circumstance where midair collisions occur is in or when a glider is joining a thermal. Statistically you can build a pyramid starting with the number of times a glider joins another or a group thermalling I am very happy with separated start points which are cylinders. Despite the apparent dangers of gliders converging on the cylinder. that has never happened in my experience. I liked some of your other ideas. I also like a finish line some distance from the airfield so pilots can collect themselves to concentrate on the landing. Peter Champness On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Harry hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Hi All, These notes may be of interest, Having a background of flying competitions for over 20years, being coordinator of the National Pilots Safety Committee and being involved in a midair in which I was hit from behind by a following glider and only just opening my parachute in time, maybe these comments may have some value. Over the period 1988 to 1999, national multiclass competitions mid air collisions resulted in 2 fatal mid airs, several pilots just opening their parachutes just in time, 5 gliders destroyed, as well as other mid airs where the damage did not result in loss of control. A number of pilots gave up flying competitions. One in ten of the pilots who flew National multiclass competitions during that period was involved in a mid air collision. The number of competitors during that period substantially reduced. By way of comparison the very popular national club class competitions which used an optional turn point tasking system, did not, to my memory, have a single mid air accident. The tasking system used resulted in very little gaggling. The National Pilots Safety Committee was formed to research these accidents and to suggest ways of preventing them. Changes made, Largely as a result of the Committees efforts included. Assigned start points to reduce gaggles, mandatory frequencies, mandatory safety briefings including providing extensive notes to pilots and Assigned Area Tasks particularly for use on difficult days. Suggestions for task setters included avoiding out and return situations, Having an included angle of no less than 30 degrees between legs and setting tasks which avoided all classes coming home together at about the same time over a long leg. Some care is needed when applying these recommendations. As an example, assigned start points, usually in three groups of three, should be within about 40 degrees of right angles to the most common first legs. This ensures pilots go straight on track and not cruise through other start points after starting themselves. Surely it is not a coincidence that since these changes were introduced mid air accidents have virtually ceased and the number of pilots flying competitions has increased? We now have Flarms which are a benefit but cannot by itself explain the improvement. The major circumstance where midair collisions occur is in or when a glider is joining a thermal. Statistically you can build a pyramid starting with the number of times a glider joins another or a group thermalling. The next line is when a less than optimum but not immediately dangerous situation occurs, then a highly dangerous situation and at the top of the pyramid an actual midair. By training we can reduce the progression but there is always a correlation. The more times gliders join a turning glider, the more accidents at the top of the pyramid. Accidents when gliders are following the same track or cross each others path as can occur in an AAT are extremely rare and a circumstance where Flarms are particularly effective. For these reasons it is very concerning that some pilots are advocating and consideration is being given to returning to conditions which obtained during the years when we had an epidemic of accidents. Start lines result in pilots starting together and gaggling is far worse, particularly on blue days, just as occurred years ago with unallocated start points I understand that some pilots like to fly as a team or a pair. Not sure that the silent majority are happy when our best pilots, perhaps hoping or training for international team selection , fly as a pair. The advantages of pair or team flying are such that when the best pilots do it, not much chance for the rest. It may well be GFA policy to encourage pair flying by using start lines but I hope they are aware of the potential risks. Having safe competitions must be our first priority. Harry Medlicott *From:* rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com *Sent:* Sunday, February 02, 2014 2:45 PM *To:* aus soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
A few points:
Despite popular belief, team flying is disallowed or doesn't happen in most
European national competitions.
I've heard of multiple start points being tried in some places (WGC2010?)
but it hasn't stuck. It seems it only takes one day where pilots on one set
of start points are disadvantaged and everyone is up in arms and wants
start lines back - like after the nationals at Tocumwal with essentially
unsoarable weather covering 2/3rds of the start points.
I'm not convinced that multiple start points are safer than start lines -
with multiple start points I found myself thermalling with vastly different
span/wing loading gliders prestart, whereaa with distinctly separate start
lines such as those set at Kingaroy and Waikerie it'd be with comparable
gliders with similar circling speeds and diameters - if at all, on a 10km
start line there were usually multiple potentially optimal locations. If we
want to reduce gaggling we could even increase the line length - some
european comps fly with 20k.
I agree that gaggles are a high risk sitdayson but I remain unconvinced
that the formation is any less frequent with start points than start lines
- I remember the balls of glass forming on the blue days just as readily at
Benalla (last nationals with multiple points) as Waikerie/Kingaroy. There'd
be an enormous prestart gaggle, everyone would leave on diverging headings
for their start points then reconvene in the first thermal on track. It was
essentially the same as we have now but with a randomly selected group of
pilots being forced to start a bit lower than everyone else each day. I
welcome comments from those who've flown many more competitions than I with
both start systems.
The reality of the situation is that in weak and inconsistent conditions,
it's much slower/riskier to fly alone than with a gaggle and unless you
find a way to change the incentives that drive this, on the low, weak, blue
days there will be gaggling. All of the ways that I can think of (everybody
has a different task, everybody has a different start time) have a
substantial impact on fairness such that the day would better be cancelled.
On 13 Feb 2014 22:11, Gary Stevenson gstev...@bigpond.com wrote:
Hi All,
Harry has given us some good information here, which should be of special
interest to newer competition pilots.
I am somewhat at loss as to why Harry made comment in his last
paragraph on team flying. Team flying is OUT in Australian National
Competitions, and Ross McLean in a very recent post on this site explained
exactly why.
Harry gave a brief comment on Start Line (as currently used), as opposed
to Start Circle, and as I see it, voted for the start circle. Perhaps Harry
might like add some extra comment here?
From my now EXTENSIVE experience of using a start line, I can say that
the reality is that it would *seem* that in *a majority* of circumstances
the actual start method does not really matter that much. However note my
use of the words SEEM MAJORITY. As Harry pointed out, there are
exceptions, and there is not the slightest doubt, that safety is
compromised, in these exceptions.
The Europeans love start lines ( despite all its potential hazards),
because European pilots mostly team fly, and using a start line makes the
start easier for a team.
It is my understanding that Australia pioneered the use of allocated Start
Circles. In Harry's paragraph 6, he talks about Start Point Circle
layout geometry. The competition guide lines unambiguously set all this
out: Very safe, and very fair. {I use fair as some pilots seem to think
(argue), that having a choice of ONLY three start points is very
inhibiting, and very unfair.] My comment - GET REAL!
Basically THERE ARE MINIMAL HAZZARDS associated with start circles. If you
don't quite get it' yet*, I STRONGLY advocate that in Australia we
exclusively use start circles*. They tend to inhibit a team flying
approach, and they tend to inhabit a start gaggle, which is of course why
the Europeans have not adopted the idea.
Gary Stevenson
*From:* aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:
aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Harry
*Sent:* Thursday, 13 February 2014 3:39 PM
*To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
*Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
Hi All,
These notes may be of interest,
Having a background of flying competitions for over 20years, being
coordinator of the National Pilots Safety Committee and being involved in a
midair in which I was hit from behind by a following glider and only just
opening my parachute in time, maybe these comments may have some value.
Over the period 1988 to 1999, national multiclass competitions mid air
collisions resulted in 2 fatal mid airs, several pilots just opening their
parachutes just in time, 5 gliders destroyed, as well as other mid airs
where the damage did
Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal
Hi All, Some interesting comments from Matthew. His comment in the first paragraph re Tocumwal, is actually a very good reason supporting the use of allocated start points. With 2/3rds of the points out, what we have is 1/3 usable. EVERY pilot still has one start point available in the soarable part of the start area. This is adequate. Contrast this to the hypothetical situation where the one and only (per class) start line has been set up in the unsoarable part of the sky. In the nature of the beast, it is somewhat unlikely that increasing the length of a start line from 10k to 20 k is going to improve safety very much, if at all. Multiple class pre-start gaggling can be minimized with well set tasks, in which it is essential (if the task is to be completed), for each class to get going soon after the opening of their gate. The trend to under-set tasks at Australian competitions continues. Comments in the last two paragraphs are noted. Here is an idea that to my knowledge has NOT been thrown into the ring to date. The idea is to use allocated multiple start lines, with a possible length of say 2-5k. I have not really thought about all the possible ramifications, and whether or not it would actually achieve anything positive, but perhaps it is at least worth considering. Gary From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Scutter Sent: Friday, 14 February 2014 12:06 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] The nationals: a proposal A few points: Despite popular belief, team flying is disallowed or doesn't happen in most European national competitions. I've heard of multiple start points being tried in some places (WGC2010?) but it hasn't stuck. It seems it only takes one day where pilots on one set of start points are disadvantaged and everyone is up in arms and wants start lines back - like after the nationals at Tocumwal with essentially unsoarable weather covering 2/3rds of the start points. I'm not convinced that multiple start points are safer than start lines - with multiple start points I found myself thermalling with vastly different span/wing loading gliders prestart, whereaa with distinctly separate start lines such as those set at Kingaroy and Waikerie it'd be with comparable gliders with similar circling speeds and diameters - if at all, on a 10km start line there were usually multiple potentially optimal locations. If we want to reduce gaggling we could even increase the line length - some european comps fly with 20k. I agree that gaggles are a high risk sitdayson but I remain unconvinced that the formation is any less frequent with start points than start lines - I remember the balls of glass forming on the blue days just as readily at Benalla (last nationals with multiple points) as Waikerie/Kingaroy. There'd be an enormous prestart gaggle, everyone would leave on diverging headings for their start points then reconvene in the first thermal on track. It was essentially the same as we have now but with a randomly selected group of pilots being forced to start a bit lower than everyone else each day. I welcome comments from those who've flown many more competitions than I with both start systems. The reality of the situation is that in weak and inconsistent conditions, it's much slower/riskier to fly alone than with a gaggle and unless you find a way to change the incentives that drive this, on the low, weak, blue days there will be gaggling. All of the ways that I can think of (everybody has a different task, everybody has a different start time) have a substantial impact on fairness such that the day would better be cancelled. On 13 Feb 2014 22:11, Gary Stevenson gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi All, Harry has given us some good information here, which should be of special interest to newer competition pilots. I am somewhat at loss as to why Harry made comment in his last paragraph on team flying. Team flying is OUT in Australian National Competitions, and Ross McLean in a very recent post on this site explained exactly why. Harry gave a brief comment on Start Line (as currently used), as opposed to Start Circle, and as I see it, voted for the start circle. Perhaps Harry might like add some extra comment here? From my now EXTENSIVE experience of using a start line, I can say that the reality is that it would seem that in a majority of circumstances the actual start method does not really matter that much. However note my use of the words SEEM MAJORITY. As Harry pointed out, there are exceptions, and there is not the slightest doubt, that safety is compromised, in these exceptions. The Europeans love start lines ( despite all its potential hazards), because European pilots mostly team fly, and using a start line makes the start easier for a team. It is my understanding that Australia pioneered the use
