Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Jim Staniforth]

  If the Butterfly vario (but it's called something else now) detects 
problems during calibration, it decreases the amount of information used 
from the inertial sensors. Proximity to anything electrical can cause 
errors.
  The only one I have flown had passed all the calibration tests so had 
good confidence in and used those sensors. While ridge soaring, the wind 
direction seemed to indicate perfectly. The "needle" swung smoothly in 
turns. The TE was from a typical probe, and the system seemed to 
indicate what a finely tuned TE should. Believe that vario represents 
the current state of the art. It costs significantly more than the 
competition.
  My own glider came with a ClearNav vario, not yet programmable to use 
the inertial sensors, but the ESA DN-3fach-UN probe works very well with 
it. That probe and your existing vario might be the best

upgrade, $400 and a few seconds to install.
Jim

On 5/22/2014 10:38 PM, Matthew Scutter wrote:


I believe the butterfly vario has an adjustment of how much you want 
to 'mix in' the accelerator/gyro with the TE. I hear the recommended 
setting has increased over time so they must be getting more confident.
Current the big advantage of these new varios is instantaneous wind 
information. I can see that being very useful in the mountains.




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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Adam Woolley]

G'day Richard,

ClearNav is the way forward (so are the others really, but CN was my choice), 
I've never flown with such an amazing vario & Nav system.

The vario is already brilliant on the gusty days, & the accelerometers & 
g-meters aren't even hooked up yet! 

The wind calcs are outstanding. A few airline pilot friends think that the CNv 
winds can be more accurate than in their jets!

I recently gave Peter Trotter my vario to trial while I was away, within a 
single flight - he was sold. Saying, the vario needle & sounds correlate to my 
backside & what I think it should all telling me. He & Lisa have since bought 
the full system for their ASW20.

The same can be said of Mark Dalton, sending back his V7 in favor of the 
simplicity of the CN vario.

G Dale & Bruce Taylor fly with the full CN setup. I remember G saying that he's 
never seen such an awesome final glide algorithm, I agree. Then add the CNv to 
talk to the CNmfd, the results are awesome.

ClearNav has the typical Cambridge style philosophy, simplicity is KING. I can 
lend both of my gliders out, & within seconds they can master the basics 
without tutorial, & within 2mins, they can master task entry (racing & AATs) 
with a simple demonstration.

Perfect for a club operation too.

Can't recommend the CN vario & mfd high enough. Call Ian McPhee the AUS agent 
for more. Alternatively, feel free to contact me off list.


Cheers,
WPP



> On 23 May 2014, at 10:11, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of 
> the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).
> 
> They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the 
> noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and 
> final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find the 
> Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.
> 
> Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind 
> accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.
> 
> Am looking to possibly replace some older kit in an LS8 I am acquiring.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Aus-soaring] Vivat

[Laurie Hoffman]

Hi All,

A good mate imported the one and only Vivat motor glider into OZ quite a few 
years ago and eventually on sold it.

Is anyone aware of it whereabouts these days?
 
Regards 
Laurie Hoffman


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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Matthew Scutter]

I believe the butterfly vario has an adjustment of how much you want to
'mix in' the accelerator/gyro with the TE. I hear the recommended setting
has increased over time so they must be getting more confident.
Current the big advantage of these new varios is instantaneous wind
information. I can see that being very useful in the mountains.
On 23 May 2014 01:29, "Scott Penrose"  wrote:

> Yeah I heard rumours about the butterfly not actually using the internals.
>
> Thanks Mike
>
> Scott
>
> On 23 May 2014, at 2:07 pm, Mike Borgelt 
> wrote:
>
>  At 12:35 PM 23/05/2014, you wrote:
>
> The newer generation Varios still use TE but have inertial sensing as an
> adjunct to TE to assist with gust filtering.
>
> Regards,
> John Orton
> Mob: 0429357439
>
>
> The inertial versions do (ie. ones that don’t use a TE tube).
> One other valuable feature I think is a good Artificial Horizon.
>
> I agree though that I would rather use external device (I use XCSoar) for
> glide computer (final glide, navigation etc).
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> You don't need a TE tube to do a total energy vario based on pressure
> measurement but there are many problems introduced by this which is why
> most varios that offer this also can use a TE probe. The main problems are
> that you are taking the difference between two large signals and if they
> don't arrive at the vario at the same time you get large transient false
> indications. The other problem is that a pitot and static source on a
> glider are far more sensitive to yaw and pitch changes than is a good TE
> probe. You may as well just use the TE probe.
>
> The so called "inertial"  varios no doubt have the 3 axis
> accelerometer/gyros and magnetometer built in (same kind of thing as in
> your iPad and maybe even the same device, they are only a few dollars) but
> whether or not anything useful is done with them is another matter. They
> may be there for advertising purposes. I was advised to put them in the
> B600/B800 and advertise that but not do anything with the data. If you buy
> a vario with inertial sensors ask what exactly is done. It is a good bet
> that you will get some figurative arm waving and talk of "Kalman Filters"
> without an actual good explanation.
>
> It is fairly easy to build a variometer (not TE compensated) using the
> inertial techniques but a total energy variometer is far more difficult. Or
> at least one that is a *good* vario with low zero point drift, like all
> modern pressure transducer varios. The MEMS (Micro Electro Mechanical
> Systems) accelerometers are pretty good but the gyros are fairly horrible.
> They look good when you sit them on the bench and integrate the output to
> get attitude (they measure *rate* of roll, pitch and yaw you need to
> integrate these to get attitude changes from the start attitude) but are
> terrible when moved around due to something called cross axis coupling and
> output noise (no, the noise doesn't average out to zero). Been there, done
> that.
>
> Inertial measurement units that will work are still quite expensive, of
> the order of USD10,000 for the bare sensor and even then by the time you do
> all the reference frame transforms and put it in a dynamic flight vehicle
> (read glider) you'll probably find the error budget has got out of hand.
>
> A human pilot filters out horizontal gusts by "seat of the pants" i.e. the
> vario is now showing lift but did I feel the vertical acceleration? The
> problem is that sometimes the onset of lift is very gentle and your push or
> pull on the stick can mask it easily. Sure it is simple to use an
> accelerometer to detect vertical acceleration but how do you remove the
> pilot inputs on the stick? Removing them is what total energy varios are
> about but by measuring the airspeed you make the vario respond very well to
> small rapid changes in airspeed caused by horizontal gusts as well as small
> rapid changes in vertical motion of the air. This makes the vario more
> difficult and tiring to interpret.
>
> Anyway, our upcoming* Dynamis *system solves all these problems and can
> be added to B600 or B800 variometer systems.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>  *Borgelt Instruments* -
> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 *
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
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> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Scott Penrose]

Yeah I heard rumours about the butterfly not actually using the internals.

Thanks Mike

Scott

On 23 May 2014, at 2:07 pm, Mike Borgelt  
wrote:

> At 12:35 PM 23/05/2014, you wrote:
>> The newer generation Varios still use TE but have inertial sensing as an 
>> adjunct to TE to assist with gust filtering.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Orton
>> Mob: 0429357439
>> 
>> 
>> The inertial versions do (ie. ones that don’t use a TE tube).
>> One other valuable feature I think is a good Artificial Horizon.
>> 
>> I agree though that I would rather use external device (I use XCSoar) for 
>> glide computer (final glide, navigation etc).
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
> 
> 
> You don't need a TE tube to do a total energy vario based on pressure 
> measurement but there are many problems introduced by this which is why most 
> varios that offer this also can use a TE probe. The main problems are that 
> you are taking the difference between two large signals and if they don't 
> arrive at the vario at the same time you get large transient false 
> indications. The other problem is that a pitot and static source on a glider 
> are far more sensitive to yaw and pitch changes than is a good TE probe. You 
> may as well just use the TE probe.
> 
> The so called "inertial"  varios no doubt have the 3 axis accelerometer/gyros 
> and magnetometer built in (same kind of thing as in your iPad and maybe even 
> the same device, they are only a few dollars) but whether or not anything 
> useful is done with them is another matter. They may be there for advertising 
> purposes. I was advised to put them in the B600/B800 and advertise that but 
> not do anything with the data. If you buy a vario with inertial sensors ask 
> what exactly is done. It is a good bet that you will get some figurative arm 
> waving and talk of "Kalman Filters" without an actual good explanation. 
> 
> It is fairly easy to build a variometer (not TE compensated) using the 
> inertial techniques but a total energy variometer is far more difficult. Or 
> at least one that is a *good* vario with low zero point drift, like all 
> modern pressure transducer varios. The MEMS (Micro Electro Mechanical 
> Systems) accelerometers are pretty good but the gyros are fairly horrible. 
> They look good when you sit them on the bench and integrate the output to get 
> attitude (they measure *rate* of roll, pitch and yaw you need to integrate 
> these to get attitude changes from the start attitude) but are terrible when 
> moved around due to something called cross axis coupling and output noise 
> (no, the noise doesn't average out to zero). Been there, done that.
> 
> Inertial measurement units that will work are still quite expensive, of the 
> order of USD10,000 for the bare sensor and even then by the time you do all 
> the reference frame transforms and put it in a dynamic flight vehicle (read 
> glider) you'll probably find the error budget has got out of hand.
> 
> A human pilot filters out horizontal gusts by "seat of the pants" i.e. the 
> vario is now showing lift but did I feel the vertical acceleration? The 
> problem is that sometimes the onset of lift is very gentle and your push or 
> pull on the stick can mask it easily. Sure it is simple to use an 
> accelerometer to detect vertical acceleration but how do you remove the pilot 
> inputs on the stick? Removing them is what total energy varios are about but 
> by measuring the airspeed you make the vario respond very well to small rapid 
> changes in airspeed caused by horizontal gusts as well as small rapid changes 
> in vertical motion of the air. This makes the vario more difficult and tiring 
> to interpret.
> 
> Anyway, our upcoming Dynamis system solves all these problems and can be 
> added to B600 or B800 variometer systems.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
> since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> 
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> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Mike Borgelt]

At 12:35 PM 23/05/2014, you wrote:
The newer generation Varios still use TE but 
have inertial sensing as an adjunct to TE to assist with gust filtering.


Regards,
John Orton
Mob: 0429357439


The inertial versions do (ie. ones that don’t use a TE tube).
One other valuable feature I think is a good Artificial Horizon.

I agree though that I would rather use external 
device (I use XCSoar) for glide computer (final glide, navigation etc).


Scott




You don't need a TE tube to do a total energy 
vario based on pressure measurement but there are 
many problems introduced by this which is why 
most varios that offer this also can use a TE 
probe. The main problems are that you are taking 
the difference between two large signals and if 
they don't arrive at the vario at the same time 
you get large transient false indications. The 
other problem is that a pitot and static source 
on a glider are far more sensitive to yaw and 
pitch changes than is a good TE probe. You may as well just use the TE probe.


The so called "inertial"  varios no doubt have 
the 3 axis accelerometer/gyros and magnetometer 
built in (same kind of thing as in your iPad and 
maybe even the same device, they are only a few 
dollars) but whether or not anything useful is 
done with them is another matter. They may be 
there for advertising purposes. I was advised to 
put them in the B600/B800 and advertise that but 
not do anything with the data. If you buy a vario 
with inertial sensors ask what exactly is done. 
It is a good bet that you will get some 
figurative arm waving and talk of "Kalman 
Filters" without an actual good explanation.


It is fairly easy to build a variometer (not TE 
compensated) using the inertial techniques but a 
total energy variometer is far more difficult. Or 
at least one that is a *good* vario with low zero 
point drift, like all modern pressure transducer 
varios. The MEMS (Micro Electro Mechanical 
Systems) accelerometers are pretty good but the 
gyros are fairly horrible. They look good when 
you sit them on the bench and integrate the 
output to get attitude (they measure *rate* of 
roll, pitch and yaw you need to integrate these 
to get attitude changes from the start attitude) 
but are terrible when moved around due to 
something called cross axis coupling and output 
noise (no, the noise doesn't average out to zero). Been there, done that.


Inertial measurement units that will work are 
still quite expensive, of the order of USD10,000 
for the bare sensor and even then by the time you 
do all the reference frame transforms and put it 
in a dynamic flight vehicle (read glider) you'll 
probably find the error budget has got out of hand.


A human pilot filters out horizontal gusts by 
"seat of the pants" i.e. the vario is now showing 
lift but did I feel the vertical acceleration? 
The problem is that sometimes the onset of lift 
is very gentle and your push or pull on the stick 
can mask it easily. Sure it is simple to use an 
accelerometer to detect vertical acceleration but 
how do you remove the pilot inputs on the stick? 
Removing them is what total energy varios are 
about but by measuring the airspeed you make the 
vario respond very well to small rapid changes in 
airspeed caused by horizontal gusts as well as 
small rapid changes in vertical motion of the 
air. This makes the vario more difficult and tiring to interpret.


Anyway, our upcoming Dynamis system solves all 
these problems and can be added to B600 or B800 variometer systems.


Mike




Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of 
quality soaring instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784:  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia  ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[John Orton]

The newer generation Varios still use TE but have inertial sensing as an
adjunct to TE to assist with gust filtering.

Regards,
John Orton
Mob: 0429357439


On 23 May 2014 10:00, Scott Penrose  wrote:

>
> On 23 May 2014, at 11:21 am, Derek Ruddock  wrote:
>
> I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of
> the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).
>
> They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the
> noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and
> final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find
> the
> Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.
>
> Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind
> accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.
>
>
> The inertial versions do (ie. ones that don’t use a TE tube).
> One other valuable feature I think is a good Artificial Horizon.
>
> I agree though that I would rather use external device (I use XCSoar) for
> glide computer (final glide, navigation etc).
>
> Scott
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Scott Penrose]

On 23 May 2014, at 11:21 am, Derek Ruddock  wrote:
> I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of
> the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).
> 
> They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the
> noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and
> final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find the
> Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.
> 
> Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind
> accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.

The inertial versions do (ie. ones that don’t use a TE tube).
One other valuable feature I think is a good Artificial Horizon.

I agree though that I would rather use external device (I use XCSoar) for glide 
computer (final glide, navigation etc).

Scott

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Re: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Derek Ruddock]

Try rec.aviation.soaring too Richard

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Richard
Frawley
Sent: Friday, 23 May 2014 10:11 AM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

All,

I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of
the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).

They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the
noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and
final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find the
Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.

Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind
accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.

Am looking to possibly replace some older kit in an LS8 I am acquiring.

Regards

Richard






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[Aus-soaring] New Generation Vario

[Richard Frawley]

All,

I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the 
any of the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).


They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart 
from the noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of 
things (wind and final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in 
the Mozzie) as I find the Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.


Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or 
wind accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.


Am looking to possibly replace some older kit in an LS8 I am acquiring.

Regards

Richard






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[Aus-soaring] GFA Awards 2014 and RANGA Scholarship

[Tim Shirley]

*GFA Awards and Trophies*

As GFA Awards officer I would like to remind you that nominations for 
the GFA Awards and trophies are open and will close at the end of July. 
 The Trophies are:


*Martin Warner Trophy* (best gain of height in the season)
*Wally Woods Trophy* (longest X/C flight of the season)
*Bob Irvine Trophy* (longest X/C flight on handicap in the season).

These trophies are awarded on application and require a valid IGC file 
as evidence.  The season is defined as 1st May 2013 to 30th April 2014.


In addition there are a number of GFA Awards that are available to be 
made.  These are based on citations which can be made by any member. 
 The available awards are:


*W R Iggulden Award*, for services to gliding administration
*J R Muller Award*, for services to the promotion of gliding
*Harry Ryan award* for services to Airworthiness
*Fred Hoinville Award*, for services to gliding generally
*Wally Wallington Award*, for services to the Sport of Gliding

These awards are not competitive, however they are in general awarded 
for services to the GFA or to gliding in a broad sense, rather than for 
services to an individual club.  There can be more than one recipient in 
a year, or none if no suitable nominations are received.


To nominate someone for these awards please send a nomination (with an 
accompanying citation) to Tim Shirley at it_ad...@glidingaustralia.org 
, or tshir...@internode.on.net 
 no later than 31st July 2014.


*RANGA Scholarship*

I would also like to bring to your attention the availability of the 
RANGA (Royal Australian Navy Gliding Association) Scholarship for 
2014-2015.  This is a single scholarship worth $1500 and is given to an 
applicant who has not previously gone solo in any form of aviation.  The 
money is paid for flying training in gliders.  Details of the 
scholarship can be found at this link 
 
on the GFA website.

--

Cheers

/Tim Shirley/

/tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare/



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