Re: [Aus-soaring] Zero Motorcycles Australia – The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site

[Mike Borgelt]

Looking at the ASH and ASH25Mi data on the 
Schleicher website the rotary engine installation 
is 110Kg. For the ASG32/ASG32Mi this seems to be 
80 Kg. It may be that the wing structure for the 
25 needs extra strength hence weight for the 
motor and the ASG32 already is designed for it.


To keep a 750 Kg 50:1 glider airborne requires 
4.5kilowatts of power. At this low power with a 
reasonably large prop, prop efficiency might get 
up to 60% or even a little better. So 7.5 KW from 
the battery. For about 1 hour to get 100Km range under power.


So somewhere in the range 80 to 100Kg of added 
weight sounds about right. Be interesting to know 
what power the electric motor in the ASG32EL is.


You can do this with a glider designed for the 
extra load in the fuselage. You need to be 
careful with max NLP when proposing an existing sailplane be motorised.


Mike

04:33 AM 25/06/2014, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_NextPart_000_0037_01CF8FEB.8A9809A0"
Content-Language: en-us

Hi Peter

I have just returned from a visit to the 
Schleicher factory where I checked on the progress of the ASG 32 EL.


The designers have managed to bring the weight 
of the electric propulsion system (including batteries) down
to the weight of the self launching rotary 
engine including accessories and fuel. It means that there is no problem
with the "maximum weight of non lifting parts" 
although all batteries are located in the engine bay. Consequently
there is no need to modify any structural 
components and the ASG 32 Mi and EL versions are almost identical.


Quite remarkable, they still get a range of 100 
km under power. However, please keep in mind that the ASG 32 EL

is not a self launching glider - Â only a sustainer (or turbo)!

Regardless, it shows the advances in this field 
quite clearly. There are interesting times ahead


Kind regards

Bernard

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] 
On Behalf Of Peter Champness

Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 1:09 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Zero Motorcycles 
Australia – The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site


Thanks Mike,

That accords with my experimental results so far.

I am talking retrofit here.

 Launch is still just out of reach because of 
weight considerations.  It has been done with very light weight gliders.
Sustainer is practical, but range is 
limited.  20 minutes sustainer power seems 
achievable with either LiFePO4 or LIPolymer for 
about 10-12kg battery weight (perhaps a bit 
less) .  Motor is lighter than petrol so it is an option currently.


That could be get home from quite a lot of 
situations, especially if you have applied some judgement during the flight.


On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt 
<mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com> 
wrote:

Unfortunately there is a "maximum weight of non lifting parts".

You may need to put the batteries in the wings. 
See The Binder EB29DE at 
http://www.binder-flugmotorenbau.de/eb2900.html?&L=1


Not a show stopper but extra complication.

To raise a 500Kg glider through 2000 
meters(launch plus retrieve) requires 10 
megajoules of energy plus what energy was 
required to keep it in level flight for the time 
taken to get there. Say 1/3 of that. More 
powerful motors are better but prop efficiency 
suffers as you put more through the same 
diameter prop. Interesting tradeoff and design iteration.


1 kilowatt hour = 3.6 megajoules.

Prop efficiency and motor efficiency losses will 
be at least 50% so you need around 7.5 kilowatt 
hours of energy in the battery. You won't want 
to discharge it deeply if you can help it so a 
little extra helps. Say  8 kilowatt hours.


Currently the LiFePO4 batteries (currently 
safest Li technology) can get around 100 watt 
hours per kilogram so 80 Kg of batteries. Maybe 
100 Kg installed with portable charger, motor, prop and controller.


It will end up similar to flying a motorless glider with water ballast.

Not impossible. That retrieve should get you to 
an airfield of some sort at least but probably 
not home if you like the longer cross country flights.


Li - ion batteries may do a little better but 
need more protection circuitry/physical barriers 
etc all of which add to weight.


Mike






At 08:09 AM 22/06/2014, you wrote:


http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/au/


54 horsepower for 20 Grand, FES and electric 
refits for old sustainers and self launchers are 
getting closer by the day. By the look of it you 
can add power packs easily. There is a video in 
there some where about supermoto racing, for 
those of you not into motorcycles the standard 
engine is very similar to a self launcher albeit in 4 stroke mode.


I know it's simplistic but

Keep mast, prop and prop 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Zero Motorcycles Australia – The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site

[DMcD]

>>> There are interesting times ahead…

I expect mainly when you have to change the batteries and discover
that the lifespan is not what you expected, nor is the replacement
price.

I heard a horror story last week from the owner of a Toyota Priapsis
which had a failed battery. The cost of replacement was so high that
he had to sell an otherwise roadworthy car for spares. But the
lifespan of a Toyota is not the same as a sailplane.

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Zero Motorcycles Australia – The Electric Motorcycle Company - Official Site

[Future Aviation]

Hi Peter

 

I have just returned from a visit to the Schleicher factory where I checked on 
the progress of the ASG 32 EL. 

 

The designers have managed to bring the weight of the electric propulsion 
system (including batteries) down 
to the weight of the self launching rotary engine including accessories and 
fuel. It means that there is no problem 
with the "maximum weight of non lifting parts" although all batteries are 
located in the engine bay. Consequently 
there is no need to modify any structural components and the ASG 32 Mi and EL 
versions are almost identical. 

 

Quite remarkable, they still get a range of 100 km under power. However, please 
keep in mind that the ASG 32 EL 
is not a self launching glider -  only a sustainer (or turbo)!

 

Regardless, it shows the advances in this field quite clearly. There are 
interesting times ahead

 

Kind regards

 

Bernard

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 1:09 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Zero Motorcycles Australia – The Electric Motorcycle 
Company - Official Site

 

Thanks Mike,

 

That accords with my experimental results so far.

 

I am talking retrofit here. 

 

 Launch is still just out of reach because of weight considerations.  It has 
been done with very light weight gliders.

Sustainer is practical, but range is limited.  20 minutes sustainer power seems 
achievable with either LiFePO4 or LIPolymer for about 10-12kg battery weight 
(perhaps a bit less) .  Motor is lighter than petrol so it is an option 
currently.

 

That could be get home from quite a lot of situations, especially if you have 
applied some judgement during the flight. 

 

On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt 
 wrote:

Unfortunately there is a "maximum weight of non lifting parts".

You may need to put the batteries in the wings. See The Binder EB29DE at 
http://www.binder-flugmotorenbau.de/eb2900.html? 
 &L=1

Not a show stopper but extra complication.

To raise a 500Kg glider through 2000 meters(launch plus retrieve) requires 10 
megajoules of energy plus what energy was required to keep it in level flight 
for the time taken to get there. Say 1/3 of that. More powerful motors are 
better but prop efficiency suffers as you put more through the same diameter 
prop. Interesting tradeoff and design iteration. 

1 kilowatt hour = 3.6 megajoules.

Prop efficiency and motor efficiency losses will be at least 50% so you need 
around 7.5 kilowatt hours of energy in the battery. You won't want to discharge 
it deeply if you can help it so a little extra helps. Say  8 kilowatt hours.

Currently the LiFePO4 batteries (currently safest Li technology) can get around 
100 watt hours per kilogram so 80 Kg of batteries. Maybe 100 Kg installed with 
portable charger, motor, prop and controller.

It will end up similar to flying a motorless glider with water ballast. 

Not impossible. That retrieve should get you to an airfield of some sort at 
least but probably not home if you like the longer cross country flights.

Li - ion batteries may do a little better but need more protection 
circuitry/physical barriers etc all of which add to weight. 

Mike







At 08:09 AM 22/06/2014, you wrote:




http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/au/


54 horsepower for 20 Grand, FES and electric refits for old sustainers and self 
launchers are getting closer by the day. By the look of it you can add power 
packs easily. There is a video in there some where about supermoto racing, for 
those of you not into motorcycles the standard engine is very similar to a self 
launcher albeit in 4 stroke mode.

I know it's simplistic but

Keep mast, prop and prop flange.
Remove engine and fuel tanks.
Epoxy in battery holders and bobs your uncle.

Justin



Justin Sinclair 
17 Queen st.
Scarborough Qld 4020

Hm 07 3885 8949
Mob 0421 061 811

Email jjsincl...@optusnet.com.au


Sent from my iPad
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Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com  
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784  
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] [World comps in Finland

[Gary Stevenson]

Hi Mandy,
Many thanks for your input re how to link up with the current state of play.

I don't recall the exact details, but a few years ago, I do recall that for
Bruce Taylor, the penny dropped, and he stated that (from hard learned
experience), he was not from that point on, prepared to fly in comps in
Europe north of a certain line that he defined. Certainly countries like
Finland and Sweden were out.
 
I have been following the OZ teams adventures in this round of World
Competition, and I can only agree with BT.

I live in Central Victoria, and the weather conditions over the past week or
two have been very ordinary here for XC soaring, or any soaring at all, for
that matter. Having said that, there is not the slightest doubt that we are
experiencing conditions here, that are MUCH better than in Finland: For
starters it is not snowing!

Very few  knowledgeable people will dispute the fact that to be a gliding
bum, you generally need to be a millionaire, and equally importantly, have a
lot of free time, to indulge your passion. If you meet the
criteria,(especially if you are European), I guess that attending a comp
anywhere in Europe is not (financially), a big deal. In this situation there
will be a basic overall cost which is RELATIVLY minimal. In comparison, the
cost of attending a European contest for an OZ pilot is considerable, and I
will add that very few of our pilots are millionaires. 

The record shows that flying comps in Northern Europe is fraught. 

So we now get to the very nub of the situation. Why is that countries like
Finland and Sweden are approved by the IGC to hold these comps? 

My old mate Terry Cubley, as our IGC delegate, knows a great deal about all
this. Quite obviously, the whole situation is totally political, and Terry
goes in there and batts for us: Sometimes he has a win. Sometimes he has a
win when it seems impossible. A bit like flying X/C on a dodgy day in fact!

So Terry, can the Australian gliding movement do ANYTHING to prevent this
(in real terms, totally unrealistic), situation -  re-occurring? 

Regards,
Gary 


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mandy
Temple
Sent: Tuesday, 24 June 2014 5:59 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [World comps in Finland

There are several blogs and FB pages
See Sports News on the GFA site
http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Sport/Sports-News/

They are just about to start streaming today's briefing live on YouTube

Mandy

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2014 3:08 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Offtopic perhaps - but would be interested to
read opinions

Do our guys in Finland do a blog each day?? if so link please?

Ron

On 18 June 2014 17:02, Dion Stuart Baker  wrote:
> How about changes be made so that colour coding/general systems are
changed
> so that colour blind people can distinguish between them? Changing to 
> red/blue would help with 99% of those who are colourblind (the
Protanopia
> and Deuteranopia affected people, which is upwards of 99% of 
> colourblind people - Tritanopia is the cause for some 0.001% of people).
>
> I'd be interested to know how many colour blind pilots are out there - 
> I think the statistic I heard is 25% of Western males and 10% of the
world's
> population of males have some severity of colour blindness, although 
> for many of them it's so slight they don't know - I personally work 
> with a
guy
> who never knew until he applied for a position in the ADF.
>
> It's pretty depressing (albeit understandable) when you're 
> automatically excluded from a slew of jobs because of something you 
> were born with -
for
> me it was commercial pilot, SAPOL, MFS, half the jobs in the ADF, lab 
> technician, just to name a few. It's more frusturating when you feel
that
> being colour blind wouldn't matter, or if a different colour coding
system
> was used, wouldn't be an issue.
>
> Just my 2c from a butthurt colourblind guy.
>
> Dion
>
>
> On 18 June 2014 11:34, Nelson Handcock 
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/casa-crack
down-threatens-to-ground-colour-blind-pilots-20140617-3abkg.html
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>>
>> Nelson Handcock
>> 0409 149919
>>
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia
>>
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>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
>
>
> --
> sudo apt-get install witty-mail-signature cannot find package: 
> witty-mail-signature sudo apt-get install lame-mail-signature 
> installing ...
>
> The main idea of "Inceptio

[Aus-soaring] YouTube link - Briefings WGC Finland

[Mandy Temple]

For those interested the Finnish are streaming the daily World Gliding
Competition briefings live on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPwd2vcqhupoTh-NdpLRdfw
Today's has just finished but the briefings can be downloaded from this page
at any time
Mandy
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Offtopic perhaps - but would be interested to read opinions

[Mandy Temple]

There are several blogs and FB pages
See Sports News on the GFA site
http://www.glidingaustralia.org/GFA-Sport/Sports-News/

They are just about to start streaming today's briefing live on YouTube

Mandy

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2014 3:08 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Offtopic perhaps - but would be interested to
read opinions

Do our guys in Finland do a blog each day?? if so link please?

Ron

On 18 June 2014 17:02, Dion Stuart Baker  wrote:
> How about changes be made so that colour coding/general systems are
changed
> so that colour blind people can distinguish between them? Changing to 
> red/blue would help with 99% of those who are colourblind (the
Protanopia
> and Deuteranopia affected people, which is upwards of 99% of 
> colourblind people - Tritanopia is the cause for some 0.001% of people).
>
> I'd be interested to know how many colour blind pilots are out there - 
> I think the statistic I heard is 25% of Western males and 10% of the
world's
> population of males have some severity of colour blindness, although 
> for many of them it's so slight they don't know - I personally work 
> with a
guy
> who never knew until he applied for a position in the ADF.
>
> It's pretty depressing (albeit understandable) when you're 
> automatically excluded from a slew of jobs because of something you 
> were born with -
for
> me it was commercial pilot, SAPOL, MFS, half the jobs in the ADF, lab 
> technician, just to name a few. It's more frusturating when you feel
that
> being colour blind wouldn't matter, or if a different colour coding
system
> was used, wouldn't be an issue.
>
> Just my 2c from a butthurt colourblind guy.
>
> Dion
>
>
> On 18 June 2014 11:34, Nelson Handcock 
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/casa-crack
down-threatens-to-ground-colour-blind-pilots-20140617-3abkg.html
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>>
>> Nelson Handcock
>> 0409 149919
>>
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia
>>
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>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
>
>
> --
> sudo apt-get install witty-mail-signature cannot find package: 
> witty-mail-signature sudo apt-get install lame-mail-signature 
> installing ...
>
> The main idea of "Inception": if you run a VM inside a VM inside a VM
inside
> a VM, everything will be very, very slow.
>
> ___
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