Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
The vent hole on the shroud is an excellent idea, McPhee alerted me to that you came up with that idea - it's on my list to do this form2. I can only imagine the life span it'd take away from my instruments. I'd like to change my shroud color too, the color wasn't chosen by me. Another one of those jobs to get around too.. Re: fuses, there's an extra one on my panel for the electric bug wipers that'll one day find themselves installed. On a side note, I'm with James Dutschke - the B700 is amazing as a vario. It'd be also great as a sole vario in your glider. I've in fact have owned two, reason: to long to describe, rest assured it was for good reasons! Safe Circles, WPP On 28 Apr 2015, at 19:26, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: I don't see a magnetic compass. Isn't compliant with airworthiness requirements. Also nasty shine on the black instrument panel cover. Humbrol Matt Black 33 from your local Toyworld or hobby shop fixes that. 2 coats out of two small cans. Brushes nicely with 1/2 soft brush. Also no vent hole in the cover to let out hot air. Bad pup, no biscuit. Mike At 06:32 PM 28/04/2015, you wrote: You have a whole lot of fuses and switches there. More fuses than instruments. Why so many? On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 6:57 AM, go_soaring go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: G'day all, My apologies, forgot to mention that I run an LX Colibri II as my independent backup vario nav source. I've flown a practice 400km flight with it prior to the Nationals this year, surprisingly worked really well as a vario. After all, Tobias Geiger almost won a world championships by flying with a Colibri II alone!! The only thing that would make me feel even better about my CNv, is to have Borgelts brilliant backup battery supply to his B instruments added to the CNv - I'm sure it's saved many Mike! Cheers, WPP P.s. My panel as it is now 2a115de.JPG On 27 Apr 2015, at 18:11, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 139, Issue 48
never failed. I only fly with one vario now in my glider, and trust it solely. I found the wind update to be excellent, though I can understand why some want straight line wind updates incorporated - only once I got into the wave, I found the wind would only update at the 180* turn upon each lap of the wave bar. Still, it's excellent! Thankfully, in AUS we only race in thermic conditions, so this will never be an issue for us here. The new audio is great too. My only gripe (which will soon become an option), was the tone that sounded every time you?d transfer from cruise to climb. It really didn't bother me as such, but would like it to be silent as it was before. All in all, amazing work from the CNv team - I look forward to future updates, and to see/feel/hear the vario when all the sensors are hooked up. Wow! Cheers, WPP ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150428/65110269/attachment.html -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 09:29:56 +1000 From: DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Message-ID: cad0mmpx1bfhhwbktgrnnkc3x--_pu33q9ycu5sw379jek9z...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The Winter got me home on the last weak thermal of the day a couple of times. The electrics were still working fine, but the Winter had greater sensitivity. Agreed. Although I use the audio from an electrovario, there's something about the way the Winter needle moves which tells you far more about the air in the immediate vicinity of a thermal. That and your arse. You hear the noise from the noisy vario, glance down at the vibrating needle of the Winter and then wait to turn or pass it up. I rarely look at the electric thing other than to see what the average is after a few turns. My opinion is that the undamped mechanical varios are very useful indeed. D -- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2015 16:50:56 -0700 From: Jim Staniforth staniforth...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Message-ID: 553ecb60.9010...@yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Mike was the first to include this feature, but... Every electric vario can have a backup battery. Pardon the Text-O-CAD. Jim SPDT ON/ON Switch | Main Supply + _ \__ Instrument + Backup Supply + ___ -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 139, Issue 48 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 139, Issue 42
So in the interest of closing a loop to a question and generating solutions. It seems there is a statistically relevant high incidence of power/vario failures at national and state competitions. Despite Murphy being a catch all easy fix, Its most likely that he isn't soley to blame in any circumstance. I'm going to go right out there and presume that people don't deliberately set up equipment to fail before a competition, therefore I can only conclude that there must be some sort of cheating, nobbling or tampering with opposing pilots equipment at a state level plus competition is going on to explain this statistical anomaly. I jest :-) . Kudos if you get the relevance of the attached photo (second best movie of all time behind Topgun FWIW) Other failure modes that have been specifically listed involve static system blockages and power failures. Ill start by saying the backup power feature on the Bxxx series varios is absolutely brilliant and cant believe this isn't universally copied by all manufacturers. Easy fix to one of the issues. Ill join in singing a B700's praises and say it's easily the best vario i've ever used. For the other mode of failure that I have listed as being specifically mentioned is there anyone with a backup TE//static system fitted to their glider? Given this constitutes a significant portion of notified failures then on my next glider Im going to have a look at coming up with a system to mitigate against this form of failure that will kill any conventional vario, regardless of backup power availability. As far as a backup against this short of a dual, switchable TE/Static solution the Colibri 2 does an amazing job as a backup (with audio) vario. I'm unsure weather this device has a GPS based, pseudo inertial compensation for changes in speed (if not then it should be!) however it is surprisingly sensitive, often beating my electric vario to a sensible average//climb indication. With regard to the vario failure = outlanding = crash scenario like everything in aviation it is a matter of risk mitigation. I agree, a failure of a primary soaring instrument increases the probability of outlanding however this has no impact on the consequence (Risk = probability x consequence). And so long as the outlanding is properly prepared with sufficient planing, thought and contingency availability then as Matty Scutter points out the probability of damage can be mitigated as near as is possible to zero. In a similar theme a pilot flying an aircraft sans audio vario does not make a default dangerous combination. That can be mitigated against with a proper scan, of which the mech vario should be low priority. Personally I believe the greater probability of a mid air comes from an aircraft not established in a gaggle. Stating the obvious but it's not the one you can see which poses the risk, hence when in a gaggle you can't just watch the aircraft around you. I'd even put it out there that at times in gaggles, your brain would be working so hard with the visual inputs it probably isn't registering the audio input anyway. This is the crux of what makes gliding so much more dangerous, a group of pilots, who haven't briefed (formation type) or established an agreed deconfliction plan in most cases, all flying within close proximity. Who is doing the lookout or clearing the flightpath for the formation if everyone is busy avoiding everybody? Without wanting to open a can of worms but are we actually obliged to adhere to the minimum traffic separation standards set out in the VFR? Do aircraft operating under the GFA have a formal exemption? Just like the VFR separation standards for cloud (based on an IFR aircraft appearing and there being sufficient time for the see and avoid principal, relevant to both parties, to save the day, which treats the probability, not the outcome. I assume this is why the 3000' AMSL or 1000agl exemption is there as there shouldn't be aircraft operating IMC at these altitudes. I think the point that Adam was eluding to was that a simple panel (ASI, ALT, 1x Vario, Radio, Flight computer) maximises time spent outside, by reducing the time required to read and interpret multiple gauges. Plus it is extremely elegant, makes the plumbing and wiring super simple etc etc. Having spent alot of time flying aircraft where the actual flying of the aircraft was almost a secondary role, I will say a simple user interface, with the required information being available quickly and clearly from an unambiguous source is of up-most importance. Imagine how good a flight certified set of Google type glasses with all that data being displayed without ever looking inside the cockpit would be!! Yours well and truly from cheap seats of a lapsed membership and no more glider to fly, James. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Richard Frawley rjfraw...@gmail.com wrote: Had powerfail in club dg1000 in state comp. Used wintervario to complete task Sent from my iPad On 27 Apr 2015,
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 08:38 PM 27/04/2015, you wrote: So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario. Anyone who doesn't think an outlanding in a glider is a greater risk than landing back at the known aerodrome they took off from should get some re-training. Or start thinking. After all what could possibly go wrong? You couldn't possibly get a loss of control while manoeuvering for the landing on an unfamiliar paddock could you? Or while trying to catch a thermal to get away from low altitude? Made more difficult in the case under discussion by not having a vario. Or hit an impossible to see power line? Or a tree? Or a line of trees cause unexpected wind shear? Or ground loop and break the tailboom because the wingtip caught in the grass which was longer than you thought? Or hit the hidden fence in the long grass? (two very experienced contest pilots took a dual high tow one day to do some performance comparisons. They had a fine old time until one said to the other we're at 2500 feet. Where is the aerodrome? Yes, two outlandings in the same paddock. Fairly rough, long grass, the second guy to land landed to one side of the other. When they got out and met they found they were different sides of a fence. Yes, failure to adequately brief and decide who was formation lead at what time, amongst others.) Or damage the landing gear by dropping into a rabbit hole? Or cattle were in the paddock when the ground was wet leaving deep hoofprints now that the ground is rock hard? Or there are hidden largish rocks in the grass? Or the tailskid causes a fire (it has happened)? Or the hidden ditch? Or the river bed that looked like a last ditch way to avoid a bad accident in a contest flown over unlandable terrain with only the occasional ranch airstrip turned out to be full of human head sized boulders? I'm sure there have been other creative ways to break people and gliders in outlandings. I've done 62 in real paddocks not counting aerodromes I didn't originally intend to land on. Only damage was a flat tyre when a lump of Mallee root hit the wheel rim, removing a segment which slashed the tube but not the tyre on the way out. Last day of a contest fortunately. Luck. Yes, there are procedures. They are designed to minimise risk but they won't eliminate it in this case as there are things simply beyond your ability to sense. There is always an element of luck. Mindlessly following these procedures and expecting everything will be OK is hopelessly naive. And no, gliding doesn't need more stupid rules. There are far too many already. Application of knowledge and commonsense would be good though. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
