Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info-Lasham demo
I would imagine that having the winch at the glider end and running the wire/rope/whatever through a pulley would create a lot of drag and wear on the part of the line that runs the full length of the strip to the pulley. Given your average Aussie dirt strip the wear rate might be unacceptable. Normally the wire is only on the ground for the ground run and initial climb. BT - Original Message - From: Dennis Hipperson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info-Lasham demo One reason I can think of is if the winch is at the glider end of the runway it is an obstacle to landing aircraft. Dennis Nigel Andrews wrote: AH, O.K I thought it was all at one end - so what's stopping you from using the pulley system at the end with the winch at the glider? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Hipperson Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2008 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info-Lasham demo That is of course the retrieve winch , not the launch winch. Dennis Nigel Andrews wrote: An example of winch at the glider end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlAMPb_IqaM Nig -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg Wilson Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2008 12:35 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info I had quite a few inquiries about the auto-tow system (it's sold) so I thought I'd put the info for the yahoo pulley launching group here. There is some good info on pulley launching for anyone considering this. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pulleylaunch/ If you'd like to talk to someone local who's using it Boonah club in Qld have built and used an auto-tow. Cheers, Greg. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info - the future!
Apologies... it was Paul Mander in the ASH 25 at Leeton. BT - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info - the future! Robert, Winching is much more common overseas than here in Oz, and they regularly send fully ballasted open class gliders up on the wire. As with aerotowing using motorgliders, it is mostly the initial ground run that is slower than normal. Once the glider is in the air the difference in weights is less obvious. The sight of an ASH25 on the wire is impressive. I think the last time I saw this was in Leeton at the junior nats, and the '25 was Bernard's. BTW it was Anita and I who bought the auto towing system from Greg. It will see some use here at Kentucky getting the '19 in the air. BT - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info - the future! Nigel Andrews wrote: Hi Greg, others. No doubt in my mind that eventually this system coupled to a dual winch AT the glider end is the way to go, one man operation, safer - cheap. 30 launches per hour possible. Aerotow clubs like ourselves could easily say to members I'll give you $30.00 towards putting petrol in your car if we go winch - based on a $40.00 tow to 2,000ft or a $10.00 winch to 2,000 which we can achieve at Warwick. Just makes sense. But what's the max glider weight you can launch to 2,000ft? Alice with water ballast is 650kg max and there are heavier gliders than that around (eg Nimbus 4 and 4D) which can go up to 850kg. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info - the future!
Robert, Winching is much more common overseas than here in Oz, and they regularly send fully ballasted open class gliders up on the wire. As with aerotowing using motorgliders, it is mostly the initial ground run that is slower than normal. Once the glider is in the air the difference in weights is less obvious. The sight of an ASH25 on the wire is impressive. I think the last time I saw this was in Leeton at the junior nats, and the '25 was Bernard's. BTW it was Anita and I who bought the auto towing system from Greg. It will see some use here at Kentucky getting the '19 in the air. BT - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Auto-tow launch info - the future! Nigel Andrews wrote: Hi Greg, others. No doubt in my mind that eventually this system coupled to a dual winch AT the glider end is the way to go, one man operation, safer - cheap. 30 launches per hour possible. Aerotow clubs like ourselves could easily say to members I'll give you $30.00 towards putting petrol in your car if we go winch - based on a $40.00 tow to 2,000ft or a $10.00 winch to 2,000 which we can achieve at Warwick. Just makes sense. But what's the max glider weight you can launch to 2,000ft? Alice with water ballast is 650kg max and there are heavier gliders than that around (eg Nimbus 4 and 4D) which can go up to 850kg. -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure
Tim, A well made point, but there is an issue aside. At Kingaroy, there was a resounding vote AGAINST changing to a height limited start rule, and although I was not present at the Temora pilot's meeting, I am told that the feeling was very much let's look at the alternatives rather than let's change. So, in actuality, there should be nothing happening to the rules at all. There are also a couple of pilot representatives who have not been terribly representative of the pilots... BT - Original Message - From: Tim Shirley To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure Interesting problem this... Perhaps we are all forgetting that the ONLY reason any change is being considered at all, is in response to a motion passed at a Pilots meeting. Most of the comments on the subject appear to be asking the NCC, which consists almost 100% of representatives directly elected by pilots, to ignore that motion... which in the past has led to loud criticism. At the same time we have had a lecture in the benefits of direct election and democracy from a large group of contributors... Make up your mind guys, you can't have it both ways. Perhaps you should be talking to the guys YOU elected, instead of complaining here. I'm really happy to say I have retired :) Cheers Tim Hank Lorraine Kauffmann wrote: Well said Bruce - I agree with you 100%. In 17 years of competition flying, I can only think of 1 occasion when I received advantage from getting into wave but I can think of many occasions when I disadvantaged myself by getting into wave and being blown downwind or starting too late. It seems to me that we keep dreaming up new rules and regulations to make things fairer whilst losing sight of our main objective which is to have fun on our annual holidays. If the whole exercise becomes over complicated with red tape and rules and penalties, it all becomes less enjoyable and we will lose pilots to more carefree activities. I copped a heavy penalty once for inadvertently going a few hundred feet over the height limit ( which was 2000ft below cloudbase) and as a result that site is my least favoured competition site because it is just no fun to be constantly monitoring your height prestart when cloudbase is way above you. Any increase in your cockpit workload prestart is a negative in my opinion. You cannot make competition gliding completely fair . All you can hope for is that it all evens out over the competition period. At the upcoming Kingaroy Clubclass Nats. we are going to re-introduce an allocated, rotating grid position. Any rule that increases safety is worthwhile pursuing, but it seems to me that the proposed rule changes being canvassed will decrease safety. The downside of these proposed rules is worse than the minor issue we are trying to solve. Regards to all - Hank - Original Message - From: Bruce Campbell To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure Hi All, Can someone please provide a clear and concise explanation of what is wrong with our current start procedures? A couple of brief points:- 1. Thermal wave is very rarely a real advantage pre-start. 2. Having said that, it takes real skill to utilise thermal wave to advantage. 3. Gliding competitions are a test of skill. There is a well known comp pilot (who is probably reading these posts and rolling around on the floor in stitches) who once described to me a flight where he climbed 6-7,000 feet above cloudbase in thermal wave, only to land out because he started too late to complete a 500km+ task. Those who didn't muck around in wave completed the task. The best way to dilute any advantage of thermal wave pre-start is to set longer tasks. I think that this debate could be a knee-jerk reaction to some recent comps where there have been very large numbers of gliders per tug and launching the class takes far longer than ideal, giving the guys who take off first an advantage in that they are airborne for a long time pre-start gate opening. The best fix for this is to arrange for more tugs.or if (and only if) that isn't possible, then mandate and rotate the LAST gliders to launch as well as the first. One way to combat the advantage obtained by a skillful pilot is to deny him/her the opportunity to display that skill. I hope that we don't fix something that isn't broken here and lose that skill. Or maybe the next step should be to mandate that we all hold hands together and fly around and wait for the guy at the bottom of each thermal to catch up before anyone leaves. Cheers Bruce C 2008/6/7 Dave Shorter [EMAIL
Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure
Pam, If we had enough weather stations to enable really accurate forecasting here in Oz I could agree with that. More often than not the actual cloudbase/height of convection is not that close to forecast. It would be up to comps directors, but I have no problem with announcing height limit while we are in the air. We are all on the same frequency waiting for start time announcements, and we have effectively changed a task in the air at a recent nationals with no problem. BT - Original Message - From: Pam Kurstjens To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure I'm always a bit worried when we start to rely on messages given over the radio that we can't be sure all the pilots have heard. There is another opportunity for unfairness. Best to decide before takeoff. Pam From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Taylor Sent: Saturday, 7 June 2008 12:41 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure I can only agree with Harry and Pam. We should not try to set a height limit below cloudbase; for all the reasons already put it would be irresponsible to do so. But a limit some small height above cloudbase solves all the problems. What height? Remember that we are attempting to quell any perception of unfairness. My feeling is that 2000 feet above convection height is still enough for an advantage if the first leg is downwind. However, if the height allowed above cloudbase was small enough, then there is really no possibility for advantage, and everyone will probably stay below base. Can we use reports from airborne gliders to ascertain an accurate figure for the highest cloudbase in the area? There are more issues to be worked through, such as requirements for calibration on loggers, (something we have managed to live without so far) and penalties for indiscretions. The consequences of going over height need to be sufficient to discourage, but not to cause irreparable damage in the competition for that pilot. Some questions to answer, but I favour this option wholeheartedly. BT - Original Message - From: Pam Kurstjens To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure Harry Very nicely put. The really dangerous thing to do is to limit start height to a level at or below cloudbase that can result in EVERYONE being at the top of the same thermal waiting to start. In some circumstances they wait a long time after the start has opened. This can happen even when no height limit has been imposed, but a height limit will make it more likely. Without a height limit, it is perceived that pilots gain an unfair advantage by climbing several thousand feet higher than those who launch at the back of the grid. This situation is made much worse when the announcement that the start line will open in 15 minutes is made while the last two gliders in the class are still ON TOW, as happened at Temora this year, and added weight to the discussion at the pilots meeting. I would invite comments on the following: The sensible compromise would be to have a maximum start height which is above cloudbase, and therefore any gaggling in a very limited space (top of a single thermal) is avoided. This would mean people can climb, let's say, 2000 feet above cloudbase, a compromise between getting everyone out of everyone's way, and not allowing them to go up several thousand feet if they have an extra hour in which to do so. I'm suggesting 2000, rather than 500 ft above cloudbase, because when transitioning into thermal wave, the first few hundred feet involve being close to the wisps, and we wouldn't want everyone held in that layer. Also, the prediction of cloudbase within 500ft is difficult, and cloudbase may well rise 500 ft during the launch. Pam Kurstjens From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Shorter Sent: Saturday, 7 June 2008 10:46 AM To: Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure -Original Message- From: harry medlicott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 7 June 2008 9:54 AM To: Dave Shorter Subject: Dave, For reasons I am unable to sort out in the short term, am able to receive aus-soaring postings but not send them. Was hoping you could submit the following on my behalf, Thanks, Harry Hi All, The opinions by very experienced pilots as to the risks associated with the proposal
Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure
I can only agree with Harry and Pam. We should not try to set a height limit below cloudbase; for all the reasons already put it would be irresponsible to do so. But a limit some small height above cloudbase solves all the problems. What height? Remember that we are attempting to quell any perception of unfairness. My feeling is that 2000 feet above convection height is still enough for an advantage if the first leg is downwind. However, if the height allowed above cloudbase was small enough, then there is really no possibility for advantage, and everyone will probably stay below base. Can we use reports from airborne gliders to ascertain an accurate figure for the highest cloudbase in the area? There are more issues to be worked through, such as requirements for calibration on loggers, (something we have managed to live without so far) and penalties for indiscretions. The consequences of going over height need to be sufficient to discourage, but not to cause irreparable damage in the competition for that pilot. Some questions to answer, but I favour this option wholeheartedly. BT - Original Message - From: Pam Kurstjens To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure Harry Very nicely put. The really dangerous thing to do is to limit start height to a level at or below cloudbase that can result in EVERYONE being at the top of the same thermal waiting to start. In some circumstances they wait a long time after the start has opened. This can happen even when no height limit has been imposed, but a height limit will make it more likely. Without a height limit, it is perceived that pilots gain an unfair advantage by climbing several thousand feet higher than those who launch at the back of the grid. This situation is made much worse when the announcement that the start line will open in 15 minutes is made while the last two gliders in the class are still ON TOW, as happened at Temora this year, and added weight to the discussion at the pilots meeting. I would invite comments on the following: The sensible compromise would be to have a maximum start height which is above cloudbase, and therefore any gaggling in a very limited space (top of a single thermal) is avoided. This would mean people can climb, let's say, 2000 feet above cloudbase, a compromise between getting everyone out of everyone's way, and not allowing them to go up several thousand feet if they have an extra hour in which to do so. I'm suggesting 2000, rather than 500 ft above cloudbase, because when transitioning into thermal wave, the first few hundred feet involve being close to the wisps, and we wouldn't want everyone held in that layer. Also, the prediction of cloudbase within 500ft is difficult, and cloudbase may well rise 500 ft during the launch. Pam Kurstjens From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Shorter Sent: Saturday, 7 June 2008 10:46 AM To: Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] FW: Starting Procedure -Original Message- From: harry medlicott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 7 June 2008 9:54 AM To: Dave Shorter Subject: Dave, For reasons I am unable to sort out in the short term, am able to receive aus-soaring postings but not send them. Was hoping you could submit the following on my behalf, Thanks, Harry Hi All, The opinions by very experienced pilots as to the risks associated with the proposal to introduce competition starting requirements involving a defined maximum height and speed coupled with severe penalties for infringements must surely result in this proposal being reconsidered. Despite this, the reasons behind this proposal deserve consideration. These appears to be to provide all competitors a fair start, irrespective of launching time. Implicit and explicit in the current rules is the provision that the opening of the start gate be delayed on days when convection is high to allow the last gliders to launch sufficient time to be in a position to start at the same time as earlier launches. Hard to argue with this. An advantageous start when others are still climbing to launch height can have a profound effect on a daily score, particularly on days when an early start is desirable for meteorological reasons. So on days when shear wave or wave generally is available, what should be the time delay before the start gate is opened? Allow for a pilot to find his first reasonable thermal, climb and then travel perhaps 10 km to a start point, find a suitable active cloud, climb to cloud base, accelerate to achieve a high speed without entering the cloud, dive upwind through the skirt of the cloud, hopefully connect with
Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures
Firstly a great big thank you to Gerrit, for his insight into the start procedure dilemma - if it isn't broken, why fix it? Tim, I agree completely that there is no issue with putting wave and cloud flying out of play, despite the fact that gaining advantage from using such techniques is extremely rare. I do believe that there is an issue with getting everyone's head inside the cockpit during the start. I think the intention is to set the start height consistently below the available height of convection, and being the competitive creatures that we are, we will want to watch the numbers as we arrive at the edge of the circle. Adam, if you are given a height limit, you MUST also be given either a speed limit, or a time to remain below the limit prior to start, as you used in the UK worlds. Otherwise, being the competitive creatures that we are, we will want to cross the line with maximum energy. We don't want to go there. I wholeheartedly believe in fairness. Personally, I think the current system is fair - every pilot has the chance to use whatever means is legally available to gain extra height pre-start. If I need practice at thermalling, I go and work at it. If someone needs practice at contacting shear wave, then there is nothing stopping them from doing this. But, if the perception is that contacting shear wave is unfair, or if there is an issue with grid position on a particular day (which has been addressed for the upcoming club class nationals) then I am content to live with a rule that manages this restriction safely. The current rule changes do NOT do this. BT - Original Message - From: Tim Shirley To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures Hi all, Speaking only as a pilot (and I can now, since I no longer have a position on NCC) it puzzles me about what the difference is, except for putting wave and cloud flying out of play. There is a natural upper limit before the start - it is either the top of convection or cloudbase. If organisers set the start height at around this level then there is no difference except that those who previously took a couple of turns in the fog (yes, you know who you are), or doodled around the wispy leading edge of the cloud hoping for wave, won't be able to do so. I hope no one would argue that such practices are safer than staying in clear air. However task setting guidelines should say that the height be set at the expected top of pre-start convection, and perhaps reset once a report of cloudbase can be had from a pilot in the air. I wouldn't enjoy hanging around with 50 others at 6,000ft when we could have gone to 10. Cheers Tim Adam Woolley wrote: Mark Said: Hey, how about team flying, that would be a great idea?? It might become fun again also. I say, hear hear (or here here!)! But then again, it's not much fun for the people who don't know how to effictively team fly... Is leaching allowed everyday though!! haha :) My thoughts on the new start procedures, I dont see what the problem is really. I belive I'm one of the most determined comp pilots in Australia, and in all my previous starts, I climb up, dordle into the start gate, dordle out of the gate, then ease into the cruise. Ok, reading 'winning on the wind I and II' this is inefficient, as I'd loose 20seconds on the guy who 'zoomed' through the start gate. I call this 'good airmanship' on my behalf though. I've got no doubt that many start like this too (ie, not mach2 with their hair on fire).. What I'd like to see though, is that the start speed is above 80kts - so that you basically dont have to think about it. I believe that the start height limit of approx 500' below CB is a little crazy though. As this will have my head in the cockpit (somewhat) to ensure that I dont get penalised. Also, the competition scorer/CD will have to declare what the QNH is for scoring purposes. Then it's up to the comp pilot to ensure that he has a servicable altimeter and calibrated logger. Otherwise, if you get pinned - it's your fault.. At the JWGC05, I don't remember any drama's with the start line/sector, height limit (and 2 minutes spent below it!). I can't really remember, though I dont remember any speed restrictions out of the line. I think all the juniors had their heads screwed on there, seeing as though it was conjested at times, we'd all ease into the cruise as I said I do above. Having said all that, I dont see too much advantage in starting at altitude anyway. Except that it gives the competitors who are up there a nice warm fuzzy feeling to start the race with. I still call that I'm 5000' above base anyways, really sturs up/puts off the competitors that are at my height anyway
[Aus-soaring] Start procedures
Just wondering if there is general knowledge of the new start procedures for Aussie nationals? I first heard of it last w/e at Kingaroy. Seems we will be both height and speed limited - obviously one must not be implemented without the other, and all this with the same style of beer can start point, albeit slightly enlarged. I have some serious issues with this idea regarding safety. Having flown with height restrictions at a number of competitions, I have found it a difficult exercise requiring lots of head-down time. I have only flown this rule in conjunction with a start LINE, where everybody must cross in the one direction - not so our new system. The pilot must confirm being below height limit, below ground speed limit and inside start radius while still within the start area. This area naturally has a concentration of glider traffic, which may be arriving/leaving/thermalling in any number of directions. I am not promoting we return to a start line - we abandoned that idea more than a decade ago in the interests of... safety. We have refined the multiple start point system to suit our weather and tasks, and I believe that it has saved lives. I imagine the new procedure was raised to promote the perception of fairness; it may offend competitors to think that someone has climbed to flight levels in shear wave, whilst they are fumbling below cloud base thousands of feet below. I have to say that I myself have benefited from such a situation... just once in nearly 20 years of competition. If this is the problem, all we have to do is ensure that the task setters do not set a first leg that goes downwind. Simple as that. Even if you do start with a height advantage, this will be entirely lost by the time you arrive at the first thermal climb with all those who started much lower, due to your having flown into a much stronger headwind. All experienced nationals pilots I have asked about this matter agree totally. I feel very strongly about this. The new procedure is difficult and dangerous, and I believe it has hit the table with less than the required amount of forethought. BT___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures
Hi Ross, I apologise if I have spoken out of turn, but I was under the impression that this start rule change was already in situ - you sent me a draft copy for the new operation guide, so does this mean that we are far from setting all of this in concrete? It feels to most of us, including members of the current NCC, that there is no return. If you are seeking comments on its implementation, then why not have it out in the public arena? Why not let all those pilots who supposedly voted in favour of it at the Temora pilots meeting actually have a look at what they are going to be working with? You claim that I was included in the process. That is not true. I stumbled upon it when I attended the meeting of the organising committee for the next club class nationals in Kingaroy last w/e, and have started asking questions since then. There have been a few comments about my task-setting suggestion. The first leg does not have to be directly into wind. If you set the leg anywhere between south and north-west you will solve 99% of the problem. I have been in this situation and seen it work on many occasions. I believe that there is a simpler solution to the perceived problem than what we have in front of us. BT___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Sinha deturbulators
Maybe everyone else has already seen this, but if not, go to www.sinhatech.com/ for some interesting reading. The last two issues of Soaring have had Dick Johnson's tests of a Standard Cirrus fitted with this deturbulator system, and the results are pretty significant. Best L/D improved by about 18%, with big improvements all the way till 85 knots. Initially I thought it was simply the April issue and most likely an April fools day joke, but maybe not. I wonder if he will make a kit for the '22... BT___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] D2C
Well he is a lazy Pommy Git isn't he? Always grizzling about something or other. Hey Jim, what do we need to do about the '19 handicap? (Apart from grizzling) BT - Original Message - From: Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 8:12 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] D2C Hi Jimbo, Yeah, I know what you mean; it takes a lot of effort to work the flaps! Like its hard getting out of bed too! Let us know when Hank gives you a fly of the '29! Regards, GS -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Woolley Sent: Friday, 11 May 2007 7:38 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] D2C Jim Crowhurst has said on two accounts below.. ...I like that, not a big fan of flaps!; and.. ...I'm sure the flaps on the V2cxa will work just fine and I am more than willing to critique that glider too! I am just lazy, when given the option of with or without, I chose without! Starting to worry about you Jimbo! Woolley P.s. Please dont take offence all, just having a bit of laugh! _ Advertisement: Meet Sexy Singles today at Lavalife - Click here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flavalife9%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2E au%2Fclickthru%2Fclickthru%2Eact%3Fid%3Dninemsn%26context%3Dan99%26locale%3D en%5FAU%26a%3D27783_t=762255081_r=lavalife_may07_meetsexysingles_m=EXT ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.8/797 - Release Date: 10/05/2007 5:10 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.8/797 - Release Date: 10/05/2007 5:10 PM ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] National Championships for 2007/8
I am sure that this is NOT the case. We can accommodate any glider that sits anywhere on the handicap range, and if it does not actually appear on the current list, then all you need do is send a note to Tobi Geiger and we will put it there, then away you go! The intention is to separate gliders above and below the international club class cut-off point, not to keep anyone out of club class simply because their glider has not been handicapped yet. Cheers, BT. - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] National Championships for 2007/8 At 09:26 AM 10/05/2007, you wrote: If a glider is not in this list, it is not eligible to fly in Club Class regardless of its position in the Handicap List I guess my HP-14V would have to fly in Sports Class Greg O'Sullivan VH-GGB ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring What a dumb rule. As long as the handicap is in the right range why not allow types that aren't even flown in Europe? It isn't like any of the the gliders are going to be shipped to Europe for any contests anyway. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Polar Curve Test
Hi Adam, I just had a look for a Johnson test on the LS1, as I'm a member, but the first LS glider he tested was the LS3 in Nov 1979. I have to agree with Mike though - your best bet is to do carefully controlled comparison flights with another glider that you know will remain in similar condition until after your mods. Then all you really need will be a stopwatch and a camera... and some spare cash for a few high tows. BT - Original Message - From: Anthony Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 3:22 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Polar Curve Test I also had a brief search for Dick Johnson's previous flight test reports but it appears they have now been moved to the member section of SSA site. You need to join SAA to get access. Perfect! From: Anthony Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] A good start would be here: http://www.owp.us/Johnson/SailplanePerformance.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list __ ___ Advertisement: 1000s of Sexy Singles online now at Lavalife - Click here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http://lavalife9.ninemsn.com.au/clickthru/clickthru.act?id=ninemsncontext=an99locale=en_AUa=27782_t=762255081_r=lavalife_may07_1000sexysingles_m=EXT ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] E:Discus fuel/canopy knob
As a slight aside, I once witnessed a fatal mid-air in Germany, where the PIC of the disabled glider was trying desperately to get the canopy open... by opening and closing the water dump lever, located immediately adjacent to the canopy jettison in the old Discus. From above, his intentions were clear, but the result happened all to quickly for anyone to help out. BT. - Original Message - From: Ben Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] E:Discus fuel/canopy knob On the Standard Cirrus Sailplanes web site http://standardcirrus.org/ down the bottom is a link to early canopy ejection trials and the design of the Roeger Hook Project , i wont go into how they did it but the 4 odd video's explain it really well. Ben - Original Message - From: nandrews [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 1:41 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] E:Discus fuel/canopy knob Yep, my Ventus 2cx (T but no engine fitted) has the black canopy jettison knob followed by a black fuel cock knob - can be confusing! I painted mine red ( canopy knob that is). The only thing going for it is that if you pull it in flight accidentally the canopy doesn't actually jettison, I did it accidentally whilst having a brain drain thinking it was the water dump valve ( that's another black thingo on the same side and requires 2 hands sometimes to operate it!) - I quickly returned it back to its closed position, I guess if I had hit a bump it could have departed, luckily there is no spring loaded system. Nigel Could be worse: Confusing the fuel cock and canopy jettison on a Discus 2T could make life interesting... - mark I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED] but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82356937 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Moving east.
Yes, poor Don... he only came 5th in his first multiclass nationals in his lowly Pik. I know you don't want Jenni to hear it, but you really don't need anything better. And the winner was in a worn out LS3. Maybe there are some more handicaps need fixing. However, if you have money to spend, I do know of a shiny ASW22 that might be available. BT - Original Message - From: Don Woodward To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Moving east. I think I learnt last October that I need more than a Pik20 for the nationals. HHmm. Now I've got to find a club AND another glider. Dw. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Shirley Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2007 9:44 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Moving east. Park it at Temora and you won't have to drive anywhere to attend a Nationals J -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Woodward Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:24 To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: [Aus-soaring] Moving east. Hi everyone, I just want to drop everyone a quick note to say that my wife Jenni and myself are leaving Perth in July to move to Canberra to work and live. I've driven across the Nullabor in 2004,2005 and 2006 with my Pik20 to attend nationals so finally I'll have less driving to do to attend some comps. I'll be bringing the Pik with me. Now all I've got to do is find a club to call home. Regards Don Woodward Beverley Soaring Society -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia
I agree with Jeremy, and I agree with Tim. Certainly WE are the GFA, there is a problem, and the problem is collectively ours. A few of these fatalities have disturbing undertones, and simply show signs of poor awareness and training. So, I propose that we all keep our guard up, and be brave when we see operations or behaviour that is unacceptable. BT. - Original Message - From: Tim Shirley To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia Every accident is one too many. However, I get really disappointed when a GFA member thinks that THE GFA is someone else. The GFA is composed only of glider pilots (that is, all of us including Jeremy), all of whom would like to see the accident rate decrease and all of whom I am sure are doing their best to ensure that it does. And what exactly are YOU doing about it, Jeremy, apart from complaining? Cheers Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thompsons Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2007 16:58 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] accident rate for gliders in Australia Does anyone think that the fatal accident rate for gliders has reached a crisis point: 9 Fatalities in the last 4 years 2004 Astir near Bendigo 2005 IS29 near Dalby Janus at Gympie LS7 near Benalle 2006 Blanik at Lockhart Alpin at Caboolture Mosquito at Gulgong Stemme near Camden 2007 Pucatek at Keepit It must be the worst run of accidents in gliding history? and what is GFA's response? silence Jeremy Thompson DDSC -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Pipcher K-4?
Apologies to Emilis... I have to say the IS32 is surely the worst thing I have flown. It is tin (which leaks at 12,000 feet in wave causing frozen pilots), it has no feel, the rudder is too small and the flaps don't actually do anything, plus it is uncomfortable. I'd like to say that it has a redeeming feature of performing OK, but it doesn't even do that... The nicest is still the LS8... it is like wearing wings. BT. PS. I love this favourite glider thing... so objective! - Original Message - From: Glenn McLean To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:37 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pipcher K-4? Bruce, What an unfortunately obtuse comment regarding the Hornet. I realise that you are entitled to your opinion,- even when it is as incorrect as yours. PIO's are generally caused by poor pilot input, and not as you allude , a fault of the aircraft. All the glasfuegels need a little time to get used to the parellogram control system. Never had a pio in any of them. The most enjoyable aircraft I have flown, was the Mucha, and then SZD's finest production, the Cobra. I think they must have changed the engineering department after that, and not for the better unfortunately. The worst aircraft I have ever flown was without doubt, the Scwiezer 2-22. Unfortunately for me, I was sentenced to hard labour instructing in the barge for years, the only good point it did have -was a door for rear pilot entry. Cheers Glenn - Original Message - From: Bruce Campbell To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pipcher K-4? Stuart, Don't worry, it wasn't MP. Only flew one Hornet, that was enough. Of course if you reckon I'm wrong then I'd be happy to fly yours to be correctedHaving said what I said about Libelles too, I must say that I have flown about 4 Libelles and they were all fun, but I just prefer a Cirrus, they're even more fun - and thermalling a Cirrus is like cheating. They tell you the thermal is RIGHT THERE. Try flying my Dad's Libelle with the 17m Renner tip extensions for a whole new experience at rudder ineffectiveness. Why has no-one ever come up with a rudder extension mod for a Libelle?* With a rudder they'd be great! I'm going to have to stop replying to this list again... Cheers Bruce * H201b has a bigger fin, but the rudder is just as poor! On 17/04/07, Stuart Kerri FERGUSON [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce, I have never experienced PIO in my Hornet, and I hope your referring to a particular aircraft with your comment in brackets. SDF -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell Sent: Tuesday, 17 April 2007 10:45 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pipcher K-4? Mitch, Std Cirrus is MUCH nicer to fly than a Libelle. Just don't let go of the stick, and don't fly it at the aft limit. Aileron/rudder coord is perfect. Libelle is shocking. Elevator is not pitch sensitive as such, it is just low stick force per G. That sounds counter-intuitive, but for normal control movements it is not sensitive, but excessive movements produce large G loading - esp if you let go of the stick and it gets a gust or something - then the stick goes to full travel (either way) and you get a large G response. Easy fix - DON'T LET GO OF THE STICK. I never had PIO in a Std Cirrus, and I've flown 7 of them now. I did have PIO in a Hornet (piece of junk) as there is no feel to the stick at all. Cheers Bruce On 17/04/07, Mitchell Preston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looks like the result of a Piper Cub and a K4 having a quick 'liaison' behind a hangar... Speaking of all-moving tails (boom tish!), I always found myself at least 10 seconds behind the similarly-adorned Janus that BT used to have at his Kentucky ops. I've never quite worked up the courage to get back into a glider of the AMT species. I'm sure my fears are unfounded - just a case of once bitten etc. I dips me lid to you Std Cirrus drivers. Can't be any more 'difficult' to fly than a Std Libelle, can they? On the topic of glider handling characteristics, an open question to all and sundry (and JR): which glider has had you walking away from it after landing saying Thanks, but no thanks? I don't mean the Libelle, by the way (my father had one - I thought it was tops). Alf Lying-Tale. On 17/04/2007, at 7:57 AM, Caleb White wrote: That's actually one of the more tasteful K-4 motor
Re: [Aus-soaring] Easter Results
Obviously we will have to look at Kinky Wings handicaps now, as two V2CX's in the first couple of places must mean we have got it wrong! Surely it has nothing to do with the pilots... BT - Original Message - From: Chris Kiehn To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Easter Results Thanks Adam, Yes, I agree, the new class structure seems to be working extremely well. Does one get a better handicap for having kinky wings? ;-) Congratulations to Butch and Woolley Pup. Chris www.schempphirth.com On Mon Apr 16 8:31 , Adam Woolley sent: G'day All, Great time was had by all, with the new classing structure working very well. The results for the grand champion scale were: 1st: John Buchannan (Ventus 2cx) - 5days - 7883 2nd: Chris Woolley (Ventus 2cxM) - 8days - 7599 3rd: Paul Mander/David McManus (ASH25) - 8days - 7478 4th: Allan Barnes (LS1f) - 4days - 7421 Regards Woolley Pup Pup -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Pilot Eyesight
Personal preference is for polarised lenses, in particular the American Suntigers, as I think they show more detail in the base of clouds and bring up haze domes quite clearly. Only exception was flying in the mountains in France, when I found a pair of Serengeti driving glasses were very good in the lower light levels and against the snow. BT - Original Message - From: Christopher Mc Donnell To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pilot Eyesight Another site I read today mentioned that canopies and screens move in flight which causes problems with polarized lenses and makes them a no no. Did'nt understand the science of it. Nearly everything I have read today discourages or bans the use of polarized lenses by pilots. CMcD - Original Message - From: Richard Neale To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 11:42 AM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Pilot Eyesight Interesting site (pun intended). When the subject was discussed some time ago on this list, nobody expressed opposition to polarised lenses in such strong terms as the referenced article. I guess that's because glider canopies are NOT polarised, but I infer from the article that some aircraft windscreens are. If that's the case, then the opposition to polarised lenses is understandable. I've now had my Zeiss Skypols for a few months, and have flown hundreds of km with them. Frankly, I think they are sensational. I've always been a fan of polarised lenses in the outdoors, and never had a problem with them in a glider EXCEPT for when the Cambridge glide computer was first fitted to the SCGC DG-1000. For some reason, the LCD display had non-standard polarisation on its own lens, rendering it black to me. Others had the same problem, and the instrument was quickly fixed. The real revelation with the Skypols is the contrast enhancement when looking at things in the sky (clouds, other aircraft). I can now clearly see wisps and haze domes that were barely visible (if not invisible) before. Likewise, aircraft stand out significantly better against the sky. I haven't noticed the Skypols to be any better when looking down onto objects with the ground as background - but certainly no worse than my old polarised grey glasses. Richard. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Mc Donnell Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2007 11:54 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Pilot Eyesight Still trying to make my final decision re spectacles. Came across the following website which should be of general interest to all especially the bits re glasses. http://www.aviationmedicine.com/articles/index.cfm?fuseaction=printVersionarticleID=67 CMcD ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Safe operation of Turbos
Hi Owen, The US has an active Auxiliary Powered Sailplane group with a web site at: http://mysite.verizon.net/engreenwell/ASA/index.html From what I have seen in the past they have some good articles and publications available from the site that might help you get started. If you have any further queries I'd be happy to chat to you about them, email or phone. BT - Original Message - From: Owen Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 4:21 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Safe operation of Turbos Hi all, If the thread on Jets is drawing to a close, can I say that I am also interested in reading anything that has been published to date on the safe operation of turbos (self sustaining sailplanes). I have not found anything in the Soaring Australia/Australian Gliding index. So far I have found three good articles in Sailplane Gliding from the early 1990s: - Some thoughts on turbo operations Hollaway SG Apr/May 1992 p 74-5 - Safety in Powered Sailplanes Strachan SG June/July 1992 p 141 - Self launching and self sustaining sailplanes SG April/May 1993 p 74-5 But the most current and informative material is the recent BGA note published in December 2006 titled Converting to self sustaining gliders - guidance material. This is available on the BGA website. Does anyone else have any other articles that have been published on this important safety topic? Or even comments from other turbo owners would be most welcome. Owen Jones Beverley Soaring Society ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The not-so screaming jets...
Hey Mitch... I can feel a cartoon coming on... Witness pre-solo pilot fiddling with the switches, Holy sh**, how do you turn this thing off?... Cripes, what was that just went past? BT - Original Message - From: Mitchell Preston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 6:16 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] The not-so screaming jets... G'day you various technophiles, Luddites, agent provocateurs and innocent bystanders, I'm curious about this jet self-launcher notion, particularly as a means to introducing a possible 'cultural change' in our corner of the aviation sandpit. What sort of $ would be involved in the purchase and fitting of say two units suitable to get a two-seater off the ground? What sort of running costs would be involved? What are the challenges in operating power units like these, particularly in regard to club operations were all manner of people would be using them? What about their environmental impact - more/less/equal to than products of the Lycoming/Continental brigade? The above is largely rhetorical and is motivated by my desire for more knowledge on the topic. All learned responses, cries of anguish, catcalls from the cheap seats and chuckles from the sidelines welcome. Right, I will put on my corduroy jacket with the elbow patches, light my pipe and adopt an appropriate pose ie sitting forward in my chair appearing to look interested and/or intelligent (I can't manage both - I'm an ex-school teacher...). Frank Widdle (get it? Huh? Oh never mind...) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Reverse pulley launching
Thanks to all for the reverse pulley advice and help. Very suddenly I have a lot of stuff to work with, and most of it looks good. As the glider hasn't (quite) arrived yet, I have some time to mull over it all and make a plan. If you read about me in the news you'll know it didn't go too well... Cheers, BT. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Reverse pulley launching
Does anyone out there have any info or experience with reverse pulley launching? Our plan is to use a car on a limited length airfield to launch an unballasted 15m glider. I do remember an article in an old AG some years back, but can't find it immediately. Any help with pulley construction, rope guides, rope type, power requirements etc would be appreciated. BT ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin city.
I think you should ask Mitch Turner about the gaggle spin scenario, and how to cope with it... BT - Original Message - From: Mitchell Preston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:06 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Spin city. Spin training has been good to me two times in particular in my gliding experience. The first time was many years ago as a tyro in a Ka6CR at Grafton in NSW, chasing a thermal down low. Being a bit hung- over (oh, the rank stupidity!!), I was slow in the cognitive stakes and didn't instantly realise that an incipient was developing. The reflexes thankfully took over and recovery was initiated before a full spin developed; I owe all to the thorough spin training by the club's instructors (the late Norm Milne and my father Val being two of them). Fast-forward to the nineties to find me flying the Lake Keepit LS7 with water ballast. Once again in a thermal (not low thankfully), however this time without the extra handicap of being hung over. Hooking in just a wee bit too hard saw the LS demonstrate its dislike of such treatment with a rapid wing/nose drop and quick transition to the incipient phase. Again thorough training paid off as I got it sorted and back into the thermal. What I recall of both times is how quickly it can all go pear-shaped; it's certainly a situation that can take on a rather anti-social element all too fast and develop into something entirely undesirable. I seem to recall an apocryphal tale of someone at a comps spinning down through the middle of a gaggle in a thermal. Over to the forum comp types to deny or confirm this alleged incident... MP. p.s. I'm not actually a big fan of spins, however, like tax returns, I will do what's required to remain legal! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Darwinnian Selection and low competition finishes
Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth, but I think most already know my opinion on this subject. Historically we don't see pilots mess up from 10 feet at 120 kts - what we DO see is pilots succumb to Darwinnian selection by arriving in the circuit area at 100 feet and 50 kts with no plans. In a modern fully ballasted glider the difference between doing 120 knots for the last 20 km and sliding home gracefully exactly on a sensible McReady glide is only going to be a couple of turns extra in the last climb, at the most. And if winning comps is all about consistency... that is actually arriving home for a beer as opposed to landing in the last paddock before the finish line... then I will chose the extra height any day. Plus this means I can usually squeeze in a filthy low finish, because that is just plain old good fun! Good on GFA and CASA for finding a way to make it legal. BT - Original Message - From: Alan WIlson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:08 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Darwinnian Selection and low competition finishes Geez, I have sat on the sidelines watching those that want high speed finishes, noted the GFA training directive, and concluded that Darwinian selection will solve the challenge. Firstly McReady: the damage to competition speed is already done some 50 km/5,000 feet away. One should have been on McReady, rather than finishing, under confident, at 200+KPH from 20 km. In the 1970's I recall calculating on a slide rule that a Blanik kinetic at 136 KNOTS, AMSL, no losses, equated to potential to 45 kts at 500 feet ~ or similar. [That is basic, 1/2 Mv^2 = mgh] Then that same sprog [me] could do a circuit and find somewhere to land that 20 others on the same final glide had not already filled!!! [Thanks Tracey T Narromine 77?] And I Directed competitions [in the l970's] that accepted finishes provided the glider was on the airfield [and that had risks - those in the clubhouse may not have seen them, or validated the finish [not to mention that 50 kts hoping to clear the near fence kills v 5 knots at the far fence]]. Then we had staff out in the 40C, now we have GPS/loggers. I appreciated refamil in JAN 2006 at Temora [tks Ron] where we ducked 20 gliders around the task, BUT the final objective was to be parked: off the far upwind end of a safe runway where no-one else could possibly hit us. Then and only then [in 40C] tow back to tie downs. GFA won't need a low finish procedure, Charles Darwin will have solved the problem. GFA should reinstitute the mandate: either straight in approaches, or a minimum of 500 ft AGL' 100 kts across the clubhouse/finish line/GPS cylinder. From somewhere the professional sprog can land safely. Alan Wilson Australian World Masterschiefter [sp] pilot 1976 Australian Diamond 50, 1978 Canberra ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Hydration and nutrition made simple
In my experience it takes some time for my body to become accustomed to dealing with high levels of fluid intake and loss. The effect is that if I did no prior preparation, I would almost certainly be dehydrated at some level during the first few days of a flying session, comp or whatever. Despite the level of fluid intake being high enough, it simply passes through my system and exits the pee-tube, without being absorbed. Imagine pouring water on a totally dry pot plant... it all runs out the bottom until the soil becomes moist, then it is much more readily absorbed. If I were to begin my preparation on the morning of a flight, it is already too late. My usual plan is to begin a well-above-average intake of water a few days before I leave for a comp, then my system is ready to handle the volume when the time comes. I might add that my work is quite physically active, and I still find gliding another big step up in fluid requirements. If you have a sedentary-style work then it probably means an even greater change. Any medical comment on this idea? BT. - Original Message - From: Ashford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 8:25 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Hydration and nutrition made simple JR That is indeed my experience. When working in ceilings and in circumstances that are very hot, I find I cannot drink enough cold water. I like to drink cool water but will drink warm water in preference to icy cold. Even then sometimes I cannot keep up and I judge my hydration by the amount of times I wee. regards John Ashford 07 3822 4264 0409679867 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Libelle Canopy Lock
Cripes, Mitch, I didn't realise that you were alive when I owned that glider!! Despite the centre panels, I did enjoy flying it, as it meant that I could keep up with all the current hot-shots at the time flying all their little 15m thingys. This meant that it was possible to learn some stuff. Are we still talking about Libelle canopy locks... BT - Original Message - From: Mitchell Preston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Libelle Canopy Lock Nimbus drivers - aren't they the glider pilots with extraordinary quadriceps resulting from all that rudder action? I seem to recall that Bruce Taylor could do squats with a fully-stocked fridge on each shoulder while he owned GEL. MP. On 24/01/2007, at 8:07 PM, Patching wrote: Nah, I think Robert did mean the GS tune, the SM tune is for Nimbus drivers. Patch ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Cambridge agency
Hi All, I have recently decided to stand down from the Aussie Cambridge agency. Various reasons, but I am sure the populous will be content in knowing that Macca will be left in charge, as he has been for some zillion years. I do have some things that need to be moved on, and will advertise in the SA rag in due course. Thanks everybody for their support through these years. Cheers, BT. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Book Idea
My guess is that they would all be grandmothers by now... BT - Original Message - From: Stuart Kerri FERGUSON To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:52 AM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Book Idea Allan - you will have to buy the book J SDF -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allan Armistead Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2007 10:29 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Book Idea Hmmm, some clarification required here Stuart. Should that PS be punctuated as; ...rode bare-back to my assistance... or ...rode bare, back to my assistance... ??? Allan Armistead ph (02) 6249 6470, mobile 0413 013 911 PO Box 908, Dickson ACT 2602, Australia When once you have tasted flight, you will always walk with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you always will be. Leonardo da Vinci, 1452-1519 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stuart Kerri FERGUSON Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2007 10:12 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: [Aus-soaring] Book Idea The Libelle Canopy lock topic got well of trackwas it resolved. It is the off track discussion that sparked this idea. We all have an outlanding story we love to tell, if you haven't you have been spending too much time in the hangar (or on the computer). We have all sat round at the end of the day flying the hangar and often telling tales of outlanding, many of them embellished over the years - that is part of the fun. What an idea for a coffee table book - A collection of Australian Outlanding stories. The market will not be huge but it is one way that the exploits of the past will remain part of the folk lore of Gliding. SDF PS - I wonder where those 3 young maidens who rode bare back to my assistance after my first real outlanding are these days. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Emilis Prelgauskas Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2007 9:46 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Not at all about Libelle canopy locks... On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:49:25 +1030, JR wrote: the publican was great, fed me and generally looked after me all afternoon and some of the night, I thought it was cool, but the crew werent so happy JR I was picked up from a farmhouse one glide south of Orrorroo on Christmas Day a long time ago along with 2 other pilots, where we were royally fed and watered; while the crews in the 3 car/trailer convoy had all the usual electrical engine issues that elderly gliding cars and trailers have on a hot dusty day and that night. We'd all hit the sea breeze as we were heading south late in the afternoon, and after the all night celebratory drinks at least the pilots didn't care it was Boxing Day before we got home. -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tasman Trophy
Yes, of course it was a wonderful result. Very well done Kerrie! And to have done it amongst those big hills makes it even more impressive. What I really want to know is this... now that the Aussie victories on foreign soil really do outnumber the losses on home soil, can I be forgiven? BT - Original Message - From: Mitchell Preston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tasman Trophy Well done Kerry! Our 'cuzzy bros' across the Tasman are keen competitors (eh), so kudos to Kerry for wrestling the TT trophy away from them. I look forward to reading her account in our august (not August) publication (no, not 'The Picture'...the other one with gliders an' stuff), should she put pen to paper, or ones and zeros to PCBs as the case may be. Mitch. On 12/01/2007, at 10:43 PM, Ann Woolf wrote: Congratulations Kerry and well done on winning the Trophy, especially at an away from home venue. Ann -- Waikerie, S Australia www.skype.com Talk to friends around the world for free Talk to a land line for very cheap rates around the world ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Controversial maybe? FLARM
Tim, I agree with most of what you are saying, and find that it is very rare to have the Flarm alert me of a threat that I didn't already recognise. However, as I have related previously there was one instance a couple of years ago that led to a near miss head-on between myself and Tony Tabart that a Flarm would have averted way before it happened. Both in cruise, the closing speed was huge, and but for Tony seeing my glider at about 200m distance the result would have been really untidy. This is not the only time I have been in such a situation - I hope it doesn't mean I am a dangerous pilot, simply that my hours in a competition environment raise the possibility of my getting involved. I am constantly aware of it, and have had too many reminders that any one of us can be involved. The Flarm only has to save one life and it is worth all the time and effort. The concern about Flarm being used to search for other gliders for competitive advantage is, I believe, a load of horsepooh. Anyone with a sound pair of eyes will see other gliders climbing well if they are within useful range anyway. After a short period of time I have learnt to filter out the Christmas tree effect, and I think this problem is being sorted with better software quite rapidly anyway. Cheers, Bruce. - Original Message - From: Tim Shirley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Controversial maybe? FLARM My Flarm is an excellent backup logger, and and also gives a very fair impersonation of a Christmas tree at times. For the first of these alone it is worth the money; for the second I am either amused or annoyed depending on the circumstances. It has yet to tell me anything I didn't already know, in a collision threat sense. If and when it does, I will be grateful for the information, but I'm not expecting that to happen any time soon. What it HAS told me several times, is the presence of thermalling gliders some distance away to the side and either above or below, and has therefore found me a couple of useful climbs that I would otherwise have missed. Perhaps that is why some pilots want Flarm to be mandatory, and why rumour has it that certain pilots turn them off :) Cheers Tim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Hart Sent: Friday, 12 January 2007 20:18 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Controversial maybe? FLARM Scott Penrose wrote: Did this midair take place in a thermal or in the criuse? I strongly suspect, as your experience has shown, that FLARM in a busy thermal offers nothing as it is going off and therefore ignored. Sorry - but that is not my experience flying with FLARM in three comps now and at a busy club (100% FLARM both club and private). The most recent update to the software seems to have toned down on the 'false positives' from what I understand, but even when this was occurring all the time (at the first FLARM comp at Lk Keepit in 2005), it was still useful as it did let you see if there was anyone in your blind spots. With the newer (but not the latest) software at the FAI multi-class comps at Kingaroy, the in thermal problem was significantly reduced and its utility improved as a result. I found that if the warning horn sounded it was a good idea to look at where the FLARM was pointing as generally there was an emerging threat (the horn sounds if there is a predicted collision in the next 18secs). With the latest software, there is again an improvement in the thermal handling (as I understand it, but I haven't had a chance to be in a gaggle yet to test it). The new software also turn OFF all the other lights when the horn sounds so that it is really clear where the threat is in relation to your glider. I think - and this has no basis in anything but my own head - that FLARM is most useful in: * Cruise - in particular two approaching gliders * Smaller thermals - in particular you have the other glider in sight, but you didn't see the 3rd - this is a common problem as we can get caught concentrating on the one glider. Certainly useful there as well - but it's also useful in big gaggles too. The point with FLARM is that it is not a replacement for good look out - but it is a very useful supplement to it. I know of no pilot that has not had FLARM pick up at least one glider first! -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I guess there are a few things to consider when contemplating a total electrical failure. The first is that in many hours and many kilometres I have never had one, though I am quite fussy about how I set up and care for the whole system. The second is that with the B40/B400 you would have an independently supplied averager/audio still running, and the third is that if you were flying a comp, you would now have no means of verification, so you may as well go home anyway. I guess your point is that going home might be pretty difficult with nothing but an altimeter... BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Hi All, I was imagining I might be able to stay silent, but I can't help myself... Please, no offence to Mike or any others, it is just that we all see things slightly differently, thank heavens. I don't think I ever watch the vario needle while flying. I would very happily fly at any level with a good audio and a large, easily read digital averager set high on the panel, and pretty much nothing else. Soon I plan to fly some comp days with everything else covered up, just to see whether I really do ignore it, but I have had a number of people flying in the back seat while I am in front comment on the fact that I almost never look at the panel. I prefer my audio to have a single tone, and find no need for any indication of whether I am in rising air that is above or below my Macready setting. I simply want to know if I am going up, or if I am not. I also do not use relative netto during the cruise, but this is a very personal choice. This audio MUST be as close to perfectly compensated as is possible with the system that you are using. I have to say that very few gliders I have borrowed/stolen have a vario that really works. And I have to agree totally with Mike - if the vario signal is coming from one source, then make it a good one, and if it is coming from two sources, pitot and static, then give it a good chance of working and keep the lines from both as close to the same length as you can. This doesn't have to cost heaps of money. Work on the KISS principle... The decision to stop and climb in any particular bit of rising air comes from other sources, primarily the structure of the thermal that is felt as you fly into it, much more than any peak vario indication. Usually you find that a well-structured thermal will produce a better bottom-to-top average than one which shows strong gusts and high peak readings as you approach it. As you are arriving at the edge of a thermal is not a good time to be watching the panel, for a lot of reasons. I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some additional problems - the pitot and static ports are more sensitive to yaw and sideslip than the modern two hole TE probe is and you need to organise the pitot and static signals to arrive at the same time at the instrument to avoid undesirable transient effects. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wanted - Ventus b 16.6 left wing
I'm sure there is a joke here just waiting to be had... BT - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 4:19 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wanted - Ventus b 16.6 left wing Hi, If anyone knows of a spare/unused left wing lying around for a Ventus b 16.6 please let me know. Thanks Chris Kiehn www.schempphirth.com This message was sent using MyMail ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] FLARM maths
Not so silly as it sounds... Usually we carry way too much rubbish in the cockpit, and spend too much time playing with it. I recently stuck my head into a brand new cockpit and found 2 x Glide computers, 2 x PDA systems, a Flarm, plus all the usual extras - the panel was full to overflowing! I am certain it doesn't make this particularpilot go any faster, and I'd prefer not to fly anywhere near him, Flarm equipped or not. You simply don't need all that stuff, and what you do have should be as sorted as possible pre-flight. As a further comment on Flarms, as many comp pilots will have found, just to have it running in the background as a reminder that you are not alone is a huge incentive to keep the lookout happening. In time the constant warnings in gaggles will be tuned out. A couple of years ago I had a really near miss (probably about 10 metres) with Tony Tabart at a Qld Easter comps. Nobody's fault really, just an odd vagary of AATs caught us both out. A Flarm would have prevented this way before it scared us half to death, soI love mine! BT - Original Message - From: Mal To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 9:33 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] FLARM maths Mike, I did not see any calculation for the glider having a flat battery. Due running the radio, FLARM, IPAC, Cambridge or Borgelt instruments! Regards Mal www.mals.net ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Why we fly
I might be boasting, but I've seen well over 400 kph on my GPS!! Downwind with about 100knots on the tail at 25,000 feet in NZ a few years back. Then you turn into wind and slow down and it still says about 120 kph... backwards!! BT - Original Message - From: Todd Sandercock To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:27 AM Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Why we fly seeing 270km/h ground speed on the GPS is not bad either."Texler, Michael" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love the view___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring On Yahoo!7 Answers: 25 million answers and counting. Learn something new today ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Lego
But Lego and Meccano don't fly... obviously the gliding season hasn't started yet! BT. - Original Message - From: Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Lego Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Lego ! Just shows what babies you all are. I had a Meccano set with real nuts and bolts, levers axles etc. and a metho powered little steam engine to drive the things I built. Imagine the fun lawyers would have with a little steam boiler in the lounge room in the hands of a child today. I believe Meccano sets in good condition sell for mega $'s these days at auction. Ah - the old Mammod steam engine (I think that's what they were called). I found mine in the attic of my mother's house when I was in the UK in June. I too played with Meccano at an early age. Never really got into Lego, though my younger brother did (and of course my son). -- Robert Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] +61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Michael Sommer at the Australian Grand Prix
Yeah, I've got a burned ASW19 he can have... trouble is, he'd still fly it pretty fast! I would give it to him at the right price though. Bruce. - Original Message - From: Philip Ritchie [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Aus-soaring aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:03 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Michael Sommer at the Australian Grand Prix Hi all Michael Sommer who recently became open class world champion would like to enter the Australian Grand Prix we're holding at Gawler in January and is looking to hire a suitable Standard Class glider. If you have a LS8, Discus 2, ASW 28 or similar it would be great if you could make your glider available to him for the event. To make this a truly top notch competition it would be excellent to have pilots of this calibre in the contest so if you can help please contact me and I'll pass your details onto him. Thanks Philip Ritchie Grand Prix competition convenor Adelaide Soaring Club -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 22/08/2006 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 34, Issue 25
Oh my goodness! I'm sorry I started all of this. All I wanted was someone to share a container with. By the sounds of it we need to buy a big heap of Old Timers in the US and throw them all in the box... then maybe if we quickly chuck a match in there too, the world will be a better place! Oh, hang on... except for my ASW19, which is only 30 years old. Bruce. - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 34, Issue 25 There is only one thing better than a libelle, thats an Olympia, JR - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 5:24 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 34, Issue 25 Ahh, flying a Libelle - is there any greater delight??!! Libelle = bliss!! Dave. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 5:25 PM Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 34, Issue 25 Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can reach the person managing the list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Container space from US (Bruce Taylor) 2. Re: Container space from US (Tom Gilbert) 3. RE: Who knows... (Mark) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Container space from US
I have recently bought a glider from the east coast of the US, and would be very happy to share containerspace for shipping out of Baltimore, sometime in the next couple of months. Quotes are around $6k total from there to Sydney. Go buy a new glider soon!! Cheers, Bruce. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US
Nothing to get excited about - the club class is getting so hot that I decided to buy a damaged ASW19. Hopefully that will be easier than scoring points in the '22! I refuse to own a Libelle... Bruce - Original Message - From: Tom Wilksch To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US You going to tell us what it is? We want to know whats better than an ASW22! Or maybe just more practical? :-P Tom - Origional Message - From: Bruce Taylor To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US I have recently bought a glider from the east coast of the US, and would be very happy to share containerspace for shipping out of Baltimore, sometime in the next couple of months. Quotes are around $6k total from there to Sydney. Go buy a new glider soon!! Cheers, Bruce. ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 21-07-2006 No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 21-07-2006 ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US
I thought flying a Libelle was easy! All the fast guys seem to have one... - Original Message - From: Tom Gilbert To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US You just don't like hard work! Tom - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US Nothing to get excited about - the club class is getting so hot that I decided to buy a damaged ASW19. Hopefully that will be easier than scoring points in the '22! I refuse to own a Libelle... Bruce - Original Message - From: Tom Wilksch To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 10:20 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US You going to tell us what it is? We want to know whats better than an ASW22! Or maybe just more practical? :-P Tom - Origional Message - From: Bruce Taylor To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Container space from US I have recently bought a glider from the east coast of the US, and would be very happy to share containerspace for shipping out of Baltimore, sometime in the next couple of months. Quotes are around $6k total from there to Sydney. Go buy a new glider soon!! Cheers, Bruce. ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 21-07-2006 No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 21-07-2006 ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___Aus-soaring mailing listAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netTo check or change subscription details, visit:http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
