[Aus-soaring] Venus 2cxt for sale

[Rob Izatt]

18m Ventus 2cxt for sale. Complete barebones refinish in poly just completed by 
Maddog Composites. Metal top Cobra trailer. $145k inc GST. Contact Rob 
0408016164
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 2cx Turbo

[Rob Izatt]

Sure Thanks

> On 10 Jul 2015, at 10:11 pm, Peter (PCS3)  wrote:
> 
> http://www.glidersales.com.au/index.php
> Do you want to list it?
> PeterS
> On 10/07/2015 9:26 AM, Rob Izatt wrote:
>> Ventus 2cx Turbo for sale. Complete bare bones refinish in poly just 
>> completed. Contact Rob 0408016164. thebunyipboo...@gmail.com
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring


___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

[Aus-soaring] Ventus 2cx Turbo

[Rob Izatt]

Ventus 2cx Turbo for sale. Complete bare bones refinish in poly just completed. 
Contact Rob 0408016164. thebunyipboo...@gmail.com
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Kiwis killed in Namibia

[Rob Izatt]

Jaroslav please confirm for Shark -

Compass _ southern hemisphere
ASI_ Knots
ALT _ Feet

Thanks
Rob


> On 2 Dec 2014, at 7:09 am, Christopher McDonnell  
> wrote:
> 
> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11367208 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Unsubscribe

[Rob Izatt]

Unsubscribe me please.

On 13/09/2014, at 10:01 AM, jim crowhurst wrote:

> Unsubscribe me please
> 
> Jim Crowhurst
> 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Controlling attitude

[Rob Izatt]

But it has everything to do with being a GFA member and the Administrative 
Appeals Tribunal would refer you to the GFA rules which you agreed to.

GFA prohibits all forms of harassment discrimination and bullying based on 
personal characteristics listed in the Dictionary. Discrimination and 
harassment are extremely distressing, offensive, humiliating and/or threatening 
and create an uncomfortable and unpleasant environment. In most circumstances 
discrimination and harassment are against the law.
Descriptions of some of the types of behaviour which could be regarded as 
harassment or discrimination are provided in the Dictionary at clause 11 and 
includes offensive, abusive, belittling, intimidating or threatening behaviour, 
whether face to face, indirectly or via technologies such as mobile phones or 
the internet.

Membership suspension, expulsion, discipline
10) a)
b)
c)
Subject to these rules and other board regulations, if the Board deems a Member 
has refused or neglected to comply with the Association's rules or MoSPs, or 
has been guilty of conduct unbecoming of a Member, or prejudicial to the 
interests of gliding, the Board may, by resolution:
i)  fine the Member, or ii) suspend that Member from membership for a 
specified time, or iii)   expel the Member from the Association, or iv)   
take all such action as may be necessary for the proper management of the
affairs of the Association.

On 13/09/2014, at 10:05 AM, Christopher McDonnell wrote:

> Rob Izatt said:“Those responsible should be made an example and their 
> memberships suspended for 12 months - and it should be publicly announced.”
>  
> Suspension of membership would mean you could not fly a glider. I have often 
> wondered what the AAT would think of the removal of flying rights for an 
> ‘offence’ nothing to do with flying.
>  
> Chris
>  
> From: Rob Izatt
> Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 9:17 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Controlling attitude
>  
> Richard Frawley/Terry Cubley
> There was another discussion recently regarding the Member Protection Policy. 
> If the GFA has not acted yet on this rubbish then that is concrete proof it 
> is no more than window dressing. Those responsible should be made an example 
> and their memberships suspended for 12 months - and it should be publicly 
> announced.
> That would send a message. By tacitly allowing this to go unpunished gliding 
> excludes 50% of the population effectively and condones this behaviour.
> Yes this is a private forum but if the comments were made by GFA members then 
> the GFA must act.
> Rob Izatt
>  
>  
> On 12/09/2014, at 11:57 PM, Gary Stevenson wrote:
> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> Astounding! To me this is an absolutely stunning summary of the current 
>> situation.
>>  
>> I can see why you  have nominated not to make further comment – you have 
>> summed it up  quite succulently, and there seems  little else that can be 
>> meaningfully said by a mere male on this topic at this point in time. [That 
>> cartoon is so brutal and true!] However I wonder if any female member of the 
>> forum would like to make further informed comment?
>>  
>> It would seem that the ONLY  thing left to do is to action things. But 
>> what actions? Quite obviously what we are really discussing here is a major 
>> culture change. Usually, in the nature of things, this  takes time, almost 
>> always  a great deal of time. Can this process be accelerated?
>>  
>> Never the less I find it somewhat heartening that the topic is now here on 
>> Aus- Soaring for discussion.
>>  
>> Terry Cubley, besides being the Aus rep,  is now also the Vice-President of 
>> the IGC.  I know that Terry is a member of this forum and therefore at least 
>> scans most of the posted material. As I said in an earlier post to Teal, the 
>> problem is worldwide, and it would seem appropriate that Terry is 
>> directed/nicely asked/whatever  by the members of this forum – the majority 
>> of whom  I assume are GFA members and therefore can somewhat informally make 
>> this request. {Yeah, yeah, yeah , I know the formal process: The GFA member 
>> has to put it to his/her Club  Committee, the Club puts it to the State 
>> Association and then the SA puts it to the GFA Board ... No wonder the likes 
>> of Mike B despairs}  -  to do everything in his power (whatever that is ), 
>> to  expedite  that cultural change at international level.
>>  
>> Terry, can you please respond to my post?
>>  
>> Regards,
>> Gary
>>  
>> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
>> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On B

Re: [Aus-soaring] Controlling attitude

[Rob Izatt]

Teal my Mum is 85. She was the first woman in Australia to become a full member 
of the Australian Institute of Management in the 70's which at that time was a 
very big deal as it was the professional "club" for CEO's etc so I have had a 
long association with knocking down barriers
Rob


On 13/09/2014, at 9:34 AM, Teal wrote:

> On the subject of culture change:
> 
> It's all very well saying (as some do) that the answer involves women 
> developing a thick skin. But that's a pretty self-serving answer, if you ask 
> me. "You change, so we don't have to." Culture change is hard, and requires a 
> concerted effort by a lot of folk over a long period of time. But if that's 
> what it's going to take, that's what it's going to take. I'll just keep on 
> doing the best I can. Every time a man notices sexism and calls it out 
> (whether it's the obvious sort like those idiot remarks on the list 
> yesterday, or the subtler sort, like not making an effort to include female 
> club members in "unofficial" club planning and discussion), then that's one 
> bit of extra supportiveness that the women *will* notice. Truly, every little 
> bit helps.
> 
> Often the problem can be a subtle sense that women are "visitors" on the 
> airfield and "not the target audience", if that makes any sense. How does one 
> address unspoken assumptions? God knows, I don't have any answers. I'd like 
> to see the issue discussed more openly, though. I think that's a healthy step 
> forward, at least. And if women *do* speak up, *listen to what we say*. So 
> many guys jump to reflexive defensiveness and "...but not all men do that" 
> whenever a woman mentions stuff like this. After a while, a lot of us just 
> give up and walk away.
> 
> It can be really hard, as a woman, to raise subjects like this in a 
> male-dominated environment. That goes a hundred times more for the subtle, 
> hard-to-verbalise stuff. (If you want to know more about the sort of stuff 
> I'm talking about here, do some reading on "micro-agressions". Good place to 
> start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression .)
> 
> Every single guy who makes an effort to "not be that guy", to put his own 
> defensiveness and self justification aside and really *listen* to what we 
> women are saying.. they're noticed and appreciated. It helps. A lot. To those 
> of you that are reading what I'm writing here and are giving it serious 
> thought rather than just dismissing it out of hand, I offer you a heart-felt 
> "thank you". Gliding as a sport has a lot of great people in it. I've met 
> some awesome folk on airfields. But being "a great guy" isn't enough. I wish 
> it were. This stuff takes active work to fix. I thank all of you in advance 
> who are willing to do a bit of that work and help make gliding less of a male 
> ghetto, and more welcoming to *everyone*.
> 
> 
> Teal
> 
> 
> On 12/09/2014 11:27 PM, Gary Stevenson wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mark,
>> 
>> Astounding! To me this is an absolutely stunning summary of the current 
>> situation.
>> 
>> I can see why you have nominated not to make further comment – you have 
>> summed it up quite succulently, and there seems little else that can be 
>> meaningfully said by a mere male on this topic at this point in time. [That 
>> cartoon is so brutal and true!] However I wonder if any female member of the 
>> forum would like to make further informed comment?
>> 
>> It would seem that the ONLY  thing left to do is to action things. But 
>> what actions? Quite obviously what we are really discussing here is a major 
>> culture change. Usually, in the nature of things, this takes time, almost 
>> always a great deal of time. Can this process be accelerated?
>> 
>> Never the less I find it somewhat heartening that the topic is now here on 
>> Aus- Soaring for discussion.
>> 
>> Terry Cubley, besides being the Aus rep, is now also the Vice-President of 
>> the IGC. I know that Terry is a member of this forum and therefore at least 
>> scans most of the posted material. As I said in an earlier post to Teal, the 
>> problem is worldwide, and it would seem appropriate that Terry is 
>> directed/nicely asked/whatever by the members of this forum – the majority 
>> of whom I assume are GFA members and therefore can somewhat informally make 
>> this request. {Yeah, yeah, yeah , I know the formal process: The GFA member 
>> has to put it to his/her Club Committee, the Club puts it to the State 
>> Association and then the SA puts it to the GFA Board ... No wonder the likes 
>> of Mike B despairs} - to do everything in his power (whatever that is ), to 
>> expedite that cultural change at international level.
>> 
>> Terry, can you please respond to my post?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Gary
>> 
>> *From:*aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
>> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *Mark 
>> Newton
>> *Sent:* Friday, 12 September 2014 7:10 PM
>> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Austra

Re: [Aus-soaring] Controlling attitude

[Rob Izatt]

Richard Frawley/Terry Cubley
There was another discussion recently regarding the Member Protection Policy. 
If the GFA has not acted yet on this rubbish then that is concrete proof it is 
no more than window dressing. Those responsible should be made an example and 
their memberships suspended for 12 months - and it should be publicly announced.
That would send a message. By tacitly allowing this to go unpunished gliding 
excludes 50% of the population effectively and condones this behaviour. 
Yes this is a private forum but if the comments were made by GFA members then 
the GFA must act.
Rob Izatt


On 12/09/2014, at 11:57 PM, Gary Stevenson wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> Astounding! To me this is an absolutely stunning summary of the current 
> situation.
>  
>  I can see why you  have nominated not to make further comment – you have 
> summed it up  quite succulently, and there seems  little else that can be 
> meaningfully said by a mere male on this topic at this point in time. [That 
> cartoon is so brutal and true!] However I wonder if any female member of the 
> forum would like to make further informed comment?
>  
> It would seem that the ONLY  thing left to do is to action things. But 
> what actions? Quite obviously what we are really discussing here is a major 
> culture change. Usually, in the nature of things, this  takes time, almost 
> always  a great deal of time. Can this process be accelerated?
>  
> Never the less I find it somewhat heartening that the topic is now here on 
> Aus- Soaring for discussion.
>  
> Terry Cubley, besides being the Aus rep,  is now also the Vice-President of 
> the IGC.  I know that Terry is a member of this forum and therefore at least 
> scans most of the posted material. As I said in an earlier post to Teal, the 
> problem is worldwide, and it would seem appropriate that Terry is 
> directed/nicely asked/whatever  by the members of this forum – the majority 
> of whom  I assume are GFA members and therefore can somewhat informally make 
> this request. {Yeah, yeah, yeah , I know the formal process: The GFA member 
> has to put it to his/her Club  Committee, the Club puts it to the State 
> Association and then the SA puts it to the GFA Board ... No wonder the likes 
> of Mike B despairs}  -  to do everything in his power (whatever that is ), to 
>  expedite  that cultural change at international level.
>  
> Terry, can you please respond to my post?
>  
> Regards,
> Gary
>  
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton
> Sent: Friday, 12 September 2014 7:10 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Controlling attitude
>  
>  
> I reckon there will be a bunch of people who’ve read some of the posts on 
> this mailing list today who’ll be saying, “I don’t see the problem. It’s just 
> a bit of harmless fun. Doesn’t hurt anybody.”
>  
> Guys say that all the time, never realizing that the only reason they're able 
> to say it is because they’ve typically been utterly indifferent to whether 
> their fun is, indeed, “harmless,” or whether it has hurt anybody.
>  
> I don’t know, perhaps parents of girls have a different view.  Perspective 
> and experience.
>  
> The reason it usually passes without mention is because most women, having 
> put up with it for their entire living memory, are so sick of it that they 
> can’t be bothered going through the exhausting rigmarole of engaging anymore, 
> and just remove themselves from situations where it’s a problem;  and because 
> so many men, harboring a cataclysmic failure of empathy, don’t even notice 
> the reactions of women, and just let it slide without saying anything.
>  
> “The secret life of women.” 
> http://i.imgur.com/OigLS.png
> (I know the cartoonist: He told me some of these quotes were provided by his 
> daughter)
>  
> In case you haven’t noticed (and I’m almost certain that some of you actually 
> haven’t), gliding is almost entirely dominated by men.  There’s no physical 
> reason why that should be the case.  There’s also no innate gender-based 
> difference in skill to explain it either.
>  
> I’m going to say it’s cultural:  The traditions and attitudes present at 
> gliding clubs all over Australia are, either overtly (like today’s email 
> messages) or subtly (like so much of everything else) repulsive to women.  
> I’ve seen so many women enjoy their AEF, stick with it for a couple of 
> weekends, and never come back.  And thousands of pilots barely ever wonder 
> why that’s the case.  Over time, gliding clubs become male ghettos, all over 
> Australia.
>  
> “What we walk past, we accept.”
>  
> When we’re learnin

Re: [Aus-soaring] Controlling attitude

[Rob Izatt]

In Holland over 40% of glider pilots are women I believe. Their culture is 
totally different.

On 12/09/2014, at 7:09 PM, Mark Newton wrote:

> 
> I reckon there will be a bunch of people who’ve read some of the posts on 
> this mailing list today who’ll be saying, “I don’t see the problem. It’s just 
> a bit of harmless fun. Doesn’t hurt anybody.”
> 
> Guys say that all the time, never realizing that the only reason they're able 
> to say it is because they’ve typically been utterly indifferent to whether 
> their fun is, indeed, “harmless,” or whether it has hurt anybody.
> 
> I don’t know, perhaps parents of girls have a different view.  Perspective 
> and experience.
> 
> The reason it usually passes without mention is because most women, having 
> put up with it for their entire living memory, are so sick of it that they 
> can’t be bothered going through the exhausting rigmarole of engaging anymore, 
> and just remove themselves from situations where it’s a problem;  and because 
> so many men, harboring a cataclysmic failure of empathy, don’t even notice 
> the reactions of women, and just let it slide without saying anything.
> 
> “The secret life of women.” 
> http://i.imgur.com/OigLS.png
> (I know the cartoonist: He told me some of these quotes were provided by his 
> daughter)
> 
> In case you haven’t noticed (and I’m almost certain that some of you actually 
> haven’t), gliding is almost entirely dominated by men.  There’s no physical 
> reason why that should be the case.  There’s also no innate gender-based 
> difference in skill to explain it either.
> 
> I’m going to say it’s cultural:  The traditions and attitudes present at 
> gliding clubs all over Australia are, either overtly (like today’s email 
> messages) or subtly (like so much of everything else) repulsive to women.  
> I’ve seen so many women enjoy their AEF, stick with it for a couple of 
> weekends, and never come back.  And thousands of pilots barely ever wonder 
> why that’s the case.  Over time, gliding clubs become male ghettos, all over 
> Australia.
> 
> “What we walk past, we accept.”
> 
> When we’re learning to fly, the first lesson we’re taught is stability.  The 
> second lesson we’re taught is how to change our attitude.
> 
> This community seems absolutely excellent at stability. When it comes to 
> sexism, maybe it ought to be skilled enough to master attitude.
> 
> There’ll no doubt be replies to this message. I’ve said my piece, I’m not 
> going to respond to any of them them. But I, like everyone else who reads 
> them, will be making character judgements regardless.  If you find that idea 
> challenging, perhaps take 24 hours to have a good hard think about why.
> 
> Fin.
> 
>   - mark
> [ I will also reserve judgement over whether off-list replies should be 
> forwarded to the list.
>   There will be no shadows here. ]
> 
> 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Cost, hail damage

[Rob Izatt]

As I can attest to "silence' is what allows the bullies and the prejudiced to 
thrive.
Rob Izatt


On 12/09/2014, at 11:05 AM, Michael Scutter wrote:

> I raised the question about possible repair cost and I also thought there 
> might be damage to the leading edges and elsewhere. 
> 
> I whole heatedly agree with Mark, Tim and Scott and no doubt others that were 
> troubled by the replies but silent. 
> 
> I was and am interested to hear from a knowledgeable person about what this 
> sort of damage costs to repair and would it be covered by insurance?
> 
> I had heard of one airline paying to repair an aircraft, even though the 
> insurer had written it off. The airline decided it was better for their 
> reputation to not have an aircraft destroyed. Perhaps they could then say 
> they had not had a major crash. It might be urban myth?
> 
> Respectfully 
> 
> Michael
> 
> On 12 Sep 2014, at 9:51, Scott Penrose  wrote:
> 
>> THANK YOU TIM  I have been trying to work out what to say. Very VERY 
>> disappointed, but appreciate that there are people out there willing to 
>> stand up. Thanks
>> 
>> Scott
>> 
>> On 12 Sep 2014, at 10:18 am, Tim Shirley  wrote:
>> 
>>> There are plenty of examples of stupidity on this list.  But this one is 
>>> simply breathtaking.
>>> 
>>> Sexist, offensive... some might even suggest pornographic.  Not something I 
>>> want in my inbox thanks.
>>> 
>>> And certainly not a positive contribution to inclusive attitudes in our 
>>> sport.
>>> 
>>> Some subsequent comments are only making it worse.  Stop it, please.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>>> Tim Shirley
>>> 
>>> tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare
>>> 
>>> On 12/09/2014 7:27 AM, Justin Sinclair wrote:
>>>> Hi Simon, unfortunately that is a  Schleicher model, no amount of money 
>>>> short of the GDP of NewZealand will fix it.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> 
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Cost, hail damage

[Rob Izatt]

I'm kinda stunned you ever thought gliding was inclusive Tim.
Rob Izatt


On 12/09/2014, at 10:18 AM, Tim Shirley wrote:

> There are plenty of examples of stupidity on this list.  But this one is 
> simply breathtaking.
> 
> Sexist, offensive... some might even suggest pornographic.  Not something I 
> want in my inbox thanks.
> 
> And certainly not a positive contribution to inclusive attitudes in our sport.
> 
> Some subsequent comments are only making it worse.  Stop it, please.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tim Shirley
> 
> tra dire é fare c' é mezzo il mare
> 
> On 12/09/2014 7:27 AM, Justin Sinclair wrote:
>> Hi Simon, unfortunately that is a  Schleicher model, no amount of money 
>> short of the GDP of NewZealand will fix it.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Storm chasers

[Rob Izatt]

Get him to contact me as i have a suitable sight
Rob Izatt

> On 25 Aug 2014, at 1:06 pm, Mike Borgelt  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Please put the new thread under a new label.
> 
> Mike
> 
> At 12:48 PM 25/08/2014, you wrote:
>> Australian Weathercam Network
>> 
>> Ben Quinn from Brisbane Storm Chasers is trying to get funding to extend a 
>> set up a network of weather cameras around Australia.
>> 
>> Have a look at this crowd funding page. 
>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1650021102/australian-weathercam-network
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Regards
>> Laurie Hoffman
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, 25 August 2014 12:23 PM, Al Borowski  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/08/2014, Ulrich Stauss  wrote:
>> 
>> > So whilst the GPC tells me that the pilot has been trained to L1 IO
>> > standard, the privileges and limitations depend on the log book 
>> > endorsements
>> > (not the GPC). I could imagine that for some clubs and CFIs the legal
>> > liabilities arising from MOSP 2, paragraph 13.1.2
>> >
>> > ("The Club of a person exercising Level 1 Independent Operator privileges 
>> > is
>> > responsible for that person's operations, even when the person is operating
>> > independently") may be considered too high a risk exposure in this day and
>> > age so that they may wish to restrict the privileges by such logbook
>> > endorsements.
>> 
>> I've never understood the point of this. My driving instructor isn't
>> responsible for any stupidity on my behalf once I have a car license.
>> The same goes for a number of other licenses (boat, RAA etc)  I hold.
>> Why is there seemingly no stage in between 'gliding student' and
>> 'gliding instructor'?
>> 
>> Admittedly this only makes a real difference with privately owned
>> gliders / motorgliders. If you're flying a club glider obviously the
>> club can impose whatever conditions they want.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Al
>> 
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
> since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring

Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 130, Issue 19

[Rob Izatt]

Anything I can assist with just ask. HpH aircraft are beautifully finished and 
a delight to fly. 

> On 14 Jul 2014, at 2:20 pm, John Roake  wrote:
> 
> On 14/07/14 2:55 PM, "Rob Izatt"  wrote: Our
> reply  hereunder:
> 
> We must be on the ball!
> 
> Only last week, I approved the costs of Aldo Cernezzi's travel to the
> TwinShark factory for a write up on the plant and their M.D.'s stated goals
> for this new two seater. Comments filtering through seem they have goals and
> hopes 'over the moon'.
> 
> Hope to have it all on hand to appear in  the space reserved in our next
> issue.
> 
> John Roake
> 
> 
>> HpH have been spending considerable time and money on this point with
>> engineers who specifically work in the wide body jet area. The TwinShark has
>> been delayed as the boss is adamant he wants something better. One of the
>> primary areas they are also working on is the weight of non flying parts -
>> fuselage. The factory does risk missing the boat with the Arcus/32/JS2 unless
>> of course it is great.
>> 
>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 12:39 pm, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>>> 
>>> what is presented here seems to be in contradiction to the successes and
>>> efficiency of wide body jets vs their narrow body predecessors.
>>> 
>>> I would be very interested to hear from design experts in this thread. From
>>> what i have read from experts elsewhere, it appears to be not the cross
>>> sectional area of the fuze that makes the difference, but the actual overall
>>> design (to maintain laminar flow and minimize separation)  and particularly
>>> the efficiency of the interface between fuze and the wing that can have
>>> significant effect.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> At 10:30 PM 13/07/2014, you wrote:
>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>>>   aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>>>> 
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>   http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>   aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
>>>> 
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>   aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
>>>> 
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>> 
>>>>  1. Re: 20M gliders (Matthew Scutter)
>>>>  2. Re: 20M gliders (Mike Borgelt)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:18:50 +1000
>>>> From: Matthew Scutter 
>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders
>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>   
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>   
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>> 
>>>> I see EB has essentially fit two pilots in a single seat EB29 with their
>>>> EB29D (
>>>> http://www.binder-flugmotorenbau.de/eb29d-racing-doppelsitzer.html?&L=1),
>>>> so I expect there is plenty of scope for improvement in fuselage size with
>>>> ergonomic innovations.
>>>>> On 12 Jul 2014 22:34, "Harry"  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Mike,
>>>>> 
>>>>> It?s all about driving a large fuselage through the air. The quite small
>>>>> size difference between say, a Discus A and B fuselage makes an 
>>>>> appreciable
>>>>> difference in performance, particularly at higher speeds. Compare the
>>>>> massive size difference between an ASG 29 and a two seater fuselage. I
>>>>> don?t know what the actual drag figures are but they must be a large
>>>>> difference. Likewise the two seater ASH 25 and Nimbus 3DMs and 4DMs are
>>>>> left far behind the ballasted 18 metre gliders when the speeds get up a
>>>>> bit. The actual Arcus fuselage is very similar to the 20 year old Nimbus 
>>>>> 3D
>>>>> fuselages so I guess there was not much scope to improve them much.The
>>>>> Jonkers JS fuselage is reputed to be an exact copy of an 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 130, Issue 19

[Rob Izatt]

Agreed. But the glide performance of modern WB jets improves with every 
generation and the time and distance to target at near idle on decent is a huge 
fuel saving. 

> On 14 Jul 2014, at 1:15 pm, "Rod Merigan"  wrote:
> 
> I think the efficiency for jet liners would be the cost/seat/mile, more
> efficient engines and more bums on seats,
> Cutting weight with use of composites.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Richard
> Frawley
> Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 10:39 AM
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 130, Issue 19
> 
> what is presented here seems to be in contradiction to the successes and
> efficiency of wide body jets vs their narrow body predecessors.
> 
> I would be very interested to hear from design experts in this thread. From
> what i have read from experts elsewhere, it appears to be not the cross
> sectional area of the fuze that makes the difference, but the actual overall
> design (to maintain laminar flow and minimize separation)  and particularly
> the efficiency of the interface between fuze and the wing that can have
> significant effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 10:30 PM 13/07/2014, you wrote:
>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific 
>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. Re: 20M gliders (Matthew Scutter)
>>   2. Re: 20M gliders (Mike Borgelt)
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:18:50 +1000
>> From: Matthew Scutter 
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders
>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>
>> Message-ID:
>> 
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> I see EB has essentially fit two pilots in a single seat EB29 with 
>> their EB29D ( 
>> http://www.binder-flugmotorenbau.de/eb29d-racing-doppelsitzer.html?&L=1
>> ), so I expect there is plenty of scope for improvement in fuselage 
>> size with ergonomic innovations.
>>> On 12 Jul 2014 22:34, "Harry"  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Mike,
>>> 
>>> It?s all about driving a large fuselage through the air. The quite 
>>> small size difference between say, a Discus A and B fuselage makes 
>>> an appreciable difference in performance, particularly at higher 
>>> speeds. Compare the massive size difference between an ASG 29 and a 
>>> two seater fuselage. I don?t know what the actual drag figures are 
>>> but they must be a large difference. Likewise the two seater ASH 25 
>>> and Nimbus 3DMs and 4DMs are left far behind the ballasted 18 metre 
>>> gliders when the speeds get up a bit. The actual Arcus fuselage is 
>>> very similar to the 20 year old Nimbus 3D fuselages so I guess there 
>>> was not much scope to improve them much.The Jonkers JS fuselage is 
>>> reputed to be an exact copy of an earlier German glider. Actually 
>>> expected the new Schleicher 32 fuselage, being a new design, to have 
>>> lesser drag but the information from Finland is not indicative of a 
>>> substantial improvement. Time will tell. Am sure you could give us 
>>> some useful information on drag calculations,
>>> 
>>> Harry Medlicott
>>>  *From:* Rob Izatt 
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 12, 2014 7:09 PM
>>> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>>> 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders
>>> 
>>> You can get two people in a two seater and share the fun which is 
>>> the wholepoint of said two seaters. Without handicaps glider comps 
>>> would be even less viable.
>>> 
>>> On 12 Jul 2014, at 5:59 pm, Mike Borgelt 
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> From what has been writte

Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 130, Issue 19

[Rob Izatt]

HpH have been spending considerable time and money on this point with engineers 
who specifically work in the wide body jet area. The TwinShark has been delayed 
as the boss is adamant he wants something better. One of the primary areas they 
are also working on is the weight of non flying parts - fuselage. The factory 
does risk missing the boat with the Arcus/32/JS2 unless of course it is great. 

> On 14 Jul 2014, at 12:39 pm, Richard Frawley  wrote:
> 
> what is presented here seems to be in contradiction to the successes and 
> efficiency of wide body jets vs their narrow body predecessors.
> 
> I would be very interested to hear from design experts in this thread. From 
> what i have read from experts elsewhere, it appears to be not the cross 
> sectional area of the fuze that makes the difference, but the actual overall 
> design (to maintain laminar flow and minimize separation)  and particularly 
> the efficiency of the interface between fuze and the wing that can have 
> significant effect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 10:30 PM 13/07/2014, you wrote:
>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>aus-soaring-ow...@lists.internode.on.net
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. Re: 20M gliders (Matthew Scutter)
>>   2. Re: 20M gliders (Mike Borgelt)
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:18:50 +1000
>> From: Matthew Scutter 
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders
>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> I see EB has essentially fit two pilots in a single seat EB29 with their
>> EB29D (
>> http://www.binder-flugmotorenbau.de/eb29d-racing-doppelsitzer.html?&L=1),
>> so I expect there is plenty of scope for improvement in fuselage size with
>> ergonomic innovations.
>> On 12 Jul 2014 22:34, "Harry"  wrote:
>> 
>> >   Mike,
>> >
>> > It?s all about driving a large fuselage through the air. The quite small
>> > size difference between say, a Discus A and B fuselage makes an appreciable
>> > difference in performance, particularly at higher speeds. Compare the
>> > massive size difference between an ASG 29 and a two seater fuselage. I
>> > don?t know what the actual drag figures are but they must be a large
>> > difference. Likewise the two seater ASH 25 and Nimbus 3DMs and 4DMs are
>> > left far behind the ballasted 18 metre gliders when the speeds get up a
>> > bit. The actual Arcus fuselage is very similar to the 20 year old Nimbus 3D
>> > fuselages so I guess there was not much scope to improve them much.The
>> > Jonkers JS fuselage is reputed to be an exact copy of an earlier German
>> > glider. Actually expected the new Schleicher 32 fuselage, being a new
>> > design, to have lesser drag but the information from Finland is not
>> > indicative of a substantial improvement. Time will tell. Am sure you could
>> > give us some useful information on drag calculations,
>> >
>> > Harry Medlicott
>> >   *From:* Rob Izatt 
>> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 12, 2014 7:09 PM
>> > *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>> > 
>> > *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders
>> >
>> >  You can get two people in a two seater and share the fun which is the
>> > wholepoint of said two seaters. Without handicaps glider comps would be
>> > even less viable.
>> >
>> > On 12 Jul 2014, at 5:59 pm, Mike Borgelt 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >  From what has been written here over the last few days, it is
>> > disappointing that a new flapped 20M two seater doesn't have as good
>> > performance as a 15M unflapped glider.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >  *Borgelt Instruments* -
>> > *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation sin

Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders

[Rob Izatt]

You can get two people in a two seater and share the fun which is the 
wholepoint of said two seaters. Without handicaps glider comps would be even 
less viable.  

> On 12 Jul 2014, at 5:59 pm, Mike Borgelt  
> wrote:
> 
> From what has been written here over the last few days, it is disappointing 
> that a new flapped 20M two seater doesn't have as good performance as a 15M 
> unflapped glider. 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
> since 1978
> www.borgeltinstruments.com
> tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
> mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
> 
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
___
Aus-soaring mailing list
Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
To check or change subscription details, visit:
http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring