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Sent: Monday, 16 February 2015 11:50 PM
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Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 137, Issue 21
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Early X/C pilots (Gary Stevenson)
2. Re: Early X/C pilots (DMcD)
3. Re: Early X/C pilots (Dave Boulter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 22:00:17 +1100
From: "Gary Stevenson" <gstev...@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <001201d049d7$bfff99e0$3ffecda0$@com>
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Hi Rolf,
Some time has passed since you responded to my yesterdays post. In the
interval, there have been some very considered responses from other members
of this forum. In your initial response I think you really missed the point
that Derek made, and which I fully supported. Derek basically said that very
useful X/C training can be done in a K13 performance type glider, even in
this day when Duo's and DG 1000's are available in an increasing number of
clubs.
Please note exactly what Derek added .... "(but don't go too far : )" And
that is the very crux of the matter. The training has to be conducted within
the performance envelope of the glider being used, and the conditions on
the day.
You seem to be saying that conditions are so bad at your home airfield -
Bacchus Marsh - that (most times), you fully expect to be in a paddock if
you attempt a X/C flight in a K13 from your airfield. ??????????
Most clubs have a milk run 100 k triangle that early X/C pilots can attempt.
Usually the pilot is never more than 20 or 30 km from base. I suggest to you
that on an average Oz day at Bacchus Marsh, not even a K13 is going to be
out of range of the home base for very long on such a task.
BTW, I know that 750 k flights have been done out of BM. Maybe the first or
second ever done in Australia?
Useful X/C training does NOT require the use of State of the Art gliders.
Question: Does anybody have an idea as to the max distance a K13/Blanik has
flown in Australia?
I seem to recall that a Blanik once held a World Record with a distance
flight of over 800 k.
Richard Frawley, I am staggered after reading your post. Just as Derek
covered the early training situation in a low (by current standards),
performance glider in one line , you seem to have covered in a very few
words, the entire guts of the situation. Well done indeed. I suggest to the
GFA Board that your post is incorporated (spelling aside), into the relevant
GFA manual.
Gary
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of rolf a.
buelter
Sent: Monday, 16 February 2015 1:18 PM
To: aus soaring
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
Dear Gary,
I beg to differ from your opinion. On a lazy Sunday afternoon I'm happy to
embark on a cross country coaching flight in our Duo as I expect to be back
in time for a refreshing drink and still return to my home at a christian
time. With an ASK 13 and an crappy old trailer I expect to outland, spend
three hours in a fly blown paddock and then 2 hour in the dark to put the
glider into a crappy old trailer, return to the airfield around mid night
and be in my bed earliest 1 am Monday. Besides all that I inflict the same
fate on at least 3 other fellow club members. N.B. - a flight within gliding
range of an ASK 13 to the aerodrome does not qualify as a x-country
coaching flight. At best it represents some thermalling practice.
To conclude a couple of personal questions, which you don't have to answer
if you prefer not to:
How many cross country coaching flights have you conducted over the last 24
months?
How many of those were in an ASK 13 or similar performance glider?
How many of these gliders had a crappy old trailer?
How many ended in an out landing?
Come to think of it - how many out landings did you do last 24 months? To
out myself - I have done 4 or 5 pre-arranged training ones and none in
anger.
With kindest Regards - Rolf
> From: gstev...@bigpond.com
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:44:57 +1100
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
>
> Hi Derek,
> Hope you are well. This is a very late response to your email, but as
> no
one else seems to have made comment on your suggestion, let me say that you
have summed up the entire discussion in a single line. Well done.
>
> As a rule of thumb, early X/C flights (dual or solo), should not
> exceed 3
hours.
>
> There has been some suggestions that a good trailer is almost
> essential
for road retrieves. What a load of rot! A good trailer is a great asset, but
it is by no means essential. What IS ESSENTIAL is that the pilot intending
to go X/C is totally familiar with the workings of the trailer that IS
available. Quite simply, if the pilot is not familiar with the trailer, then
NO X/C for that pilot until this exercise is done.
>
> Just possibly, said pilot might get off his a*se, and make a few
improvements to said trailer, if the trailer is a bit marginal (almost
always!), but in my experience, this is a rare occurrence indeed.
>
> Gary
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Derek
Ruddock
> Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 7:54 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals
>
> You don't need a DG1000: take the K13! (but don't go as far :) )
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
> Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 6:02 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals
>
> >>the GFA pilot training programme for more cross-country exposure
> >>during
the ab-initio stage.
>
> Who said that!
>
> If only that happened more during training. IMHO, that's the single
> most
important thing for a club to do when trying to make the conversion from
student pilot to addicted and committed flyer. Having done enough HG flying
to know what I was up for, the endless circuit training did not kill my
enthusiasm but it can.
>
> My son said at one point that he was wondering what it was all about
> until
he got to cloud base on day. and I don't think anyone ever took him XC
during training.
>
> I have tried to persuade our club to stop the clock and some point and
> say
to students at some point, "this is not being charged for. we're going to
fly somewhere for an hour to show you why we all do it."
>
> I'm sure it would make a big difference to the number of pilots who
> drop
out after going solo. But then we don't have something like the DG which
would make getting home more likely than in a Grob or K21
> :-)
>
> D
>
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 23:47:00 +1100
From: DMcD <slutsw...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Message-ID:
<cad0mmpzu8yd0r+7qm9hbioupmg3owryxc3yrqpvxejvb_cx...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
HA,
I think if you examine the entrails of this thread towards the beginning,
the theme was taking students on cross countries while they were training.
This is not quite the same as early cross countries where the low hours
pilot is doing it for themselves.
Have you talked to air experience customers or student pilots about what the
early X-C pilot aspires to? A Foka? A KA 6? A Rhonadler? Or a J21?
The suggestion was that if you turned off the clock and gave a free X-C
flight to a pre-solo pilot, you might get them addicted to the pastime. But
if you take them in a Pucatec, the chances are that they will be rigid with
fright all the time in case the thing doesn't make it back. I know I was.
I love vintage gliders and possibly the most fun flight I have had was in a
T31. I was not scared at all because we never crossed the boundary fence.
However an X-C experience it was not.
Climbing into some flakey, buckled, creaking, noisy and worn thing like a 28
or a Puc with dusty heritage instruments, torn upholstery and sweat stained
harnesses nearly put me off for life? early on.
The point is to sell gliding and I believe that most people's expectations
are to fly a modern glider and their aspirations are over
40:1 not under it. Heritage fliers can offer all the low-rent excuses they
want but isn't this exactly the plan which has seen participation numbers
dwindling?
Why not try something different? Of course we need some low-cost entry level
gliders but I really doubt that this is what ab-inito fliers see themselves
ending up in. How many current drivers would choose an EH Holden over a
Porch?
D
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 23:49:23 +1100
From: Dave Boulter <daveboul...@internode.on.net>
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Message-ID:
<CAHoUBRnra3s_WyJQ_UOSQvmSKPaP=ukbgky2mwfkice+nau...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Every Sunday that I instruct if there is lift, I encourage the person I am
flying with to fly what we call Woody's triangle. It is only 50kms approx
but along the way they get to learn to fly faster, not turn in crap and all
within precious glide of Camden which keeps all concerned happy. I have
people now who like talking about flying like a shark (thanks G Dale for
that one) and happily look at streets ahead and importantly look above them
at what they are actually flying in (thanks Paul Matthews for that one).
Maurie Bradney inspired me in the first part to think like this. I thought I
could not practice at Camden and he set me straight. And when the folks I
fly with are showing more interest I send them off to Keepit, Narromine or
Temora where they can get the real taste of things to come.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Gary Stevenson <gstev...@bigpond.com>
wrote:
> Hi Rolf,
>
> Some time has passed since you responded to my yesterdays post. In the
> interval, there have been some very considered responses from other
> members of this forum. In your initial response I think you really
> missed the point that Derek made, and which I fully supported. Derek
> basically said that very useful X/C training can be done in a K13
> performance type glider, even in this day when Duo's and DG 1000's are
> available in an increasing number of clubs.
>
>
>
> Please note exactly what Derek added .... "(but don't go too far : )"
> And that is the very crux of the matter. The training has to be
> conducted within the performance envelope of the glider being used,
> and the conditions on the day.
>
>
>
> You seem to be saying that conditions are so bad at your home airfield
> - Bacchus Marsh - that (most times), you fully expect to be in a
> paddock if you attempt a X/C flight in a K13 from your airfield.
??????????
>
>
>
> Most clubs have a milk run 100 k triangle that early X/C pilots can
> attempt. Usually the pilot is never more than 20 or 30 km from base. I
> suggest to you that on an average Oz day at Bacchus Marsh, not even a
> K13 is going to be out of range of the home base for very long on such a
task.
>
>
>
> BTW, I know that 750 k flights have been done out of BM. Maybe the
> first or second ever done in Australia?
>
>
>
> Useful X/C training does NOT require the use of State of the Art gliders.
>
>
>
> Question: Does anybody have an idea as to the max distance a
> K13/Blanik has flown in Australia?
>
>
>
> I seem to recall that a Blanik once held a World Record with a
> distance flight of over 800 k.
>
>
>
> Richard Frawley, I am staggered after reading your post. Just as Derek
> covered the early training situation in a low (by current standards),
> performance glider in one line , you seem to have covered in a very
> few words, the entire guts of the situation. Well done indeed. I
> suggest to the GFA Board that your post is incorporated (spelling
> aside), into the relevant GFA manual.
>
>
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:
> aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] *On Behalf Of *rolf a.
> buelter
> *Sent:* Monday, 16 February 2015 1:18 PM
> *To:* aus soaring
> *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
>
>
>
> Dear Gary,
>
> I beg to differ from your opinion. On a lazy Sunday afternoon I'm
> happy to embark on a cross country coaching flight in our Duo as I
> expect to be back in time for a refreshing drink and still return to
> my home at a christian time. With an ASK 13 and an crappy old trailer
> I expect to outland, spend three hours in a fly blown paddock and then
> 2 hour in the dark to put the glider into a crappy old trailer, return
> to the airfield around mid night and be in my bed earliest 1 am
> Monday. Besides all that I inflict the same fate on at least 3 other
> fellow club members. N.B. - a flight within gliding range of an ASK 13
> to the aerodrome does not qualify as a x-country coaching flight. At best
it represents some thermalling practice.
> To conclude a couple of personal questions, which you don't have to
> answer if you prefer not to:
> How many cross country coaching flights have you conducted over the
> last
> 24 months?
> How many of those were in an ASK 13 or similar performance glider?
> How many of these gliders had a crappy old trailer?
> How many ended in an out landing?
> Come to think of it - how many out landings did you do last 24 months?
> To out myself - I have done 4 or 5 pre-arranged training ones and none
> in anger.
>
> With kindest Regards - Rolf
>
>
> > From: gstev...@bigpond.com
> > To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:44:57 +1100
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Early X/C pilots
> >
> > Hi Derek,
> > Hope you are well. This is a very late response to your email, but
> > as no
> one else seems to have made comment on your suggestion, let me say
> that you have summed up the entire discussion in a single line. Well done.
> >
> > As a rule of thumb, early X/C flights (dual or solo), should not
> > exceed
> 3 hours.
> >
> > There has been some suggestions that a good trailer is almost
> > essential
> for road retrieves. What a load of rot! A good trailer is a great
> asset, but it is by no means essential. What IS ESSENTIAL is that the
> pilot intending to go X/C is totally familiar with the workings of the
> trailer that IS available. Quite simply, if the pilot is not familiar
> with the trailer, then NO X/C for that pilot until this exercise is done.
> >
> > Just possibly, said pilot might get off his a*se, and make a few
> improvements to said trailer, if the trailer is a bit marginal (almost
> always!), but in my experience, this is a rare occurrence indeed.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:
> aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Derek Ruddock
> > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 7:54 PM
> > To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals
> >
> > You don't need a DG1000: take the K13! (but don't go as far :) )
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:
> aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
> > Sent: Saturday, 31 January 2015 6:02 PM
> > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Two Seater Nationals
> >
> > >>the GFA pilot training programme for more cross-country exposure
> during the ab-initio stage.
> >
> > Who said that!
> >
> > If only that happened more during training. IMHO, that's the single
> > most
> important thing for a club to do when trying to make the conversion
> from student pilot to addicted and committed flyer. Having done enough
> HG flying to know what I was up for, the endless circuit training did
> not kill my enthusiasm but it can.
> >
> > My son said at one point that he was wondering what it was all about
> until he got to cloud base on day... and I don't think anyone ever
> took him XC during training.
> >
> > I have tried to persuade our club to stop the clock and some point
> > and
> say to students at some point, "this is not being charged for... we're
> going to fly somewhere for an hour to show you why we all do it."
> >
> > I'm sure it would make a big difference to the number of pilots who
> > drop
> out after going solo. But then we don't have something like the DG
> which would make getting home more likely than in a Grob or K21
> > :-)
> >
> > D
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2015.0.5645 / Virus Database: 4273/9029 - Release Date:
> > 01/31/15
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
--
Dave Boulter
m: 0417 705 997
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