[Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Neville Sutton]

Where can one find Plans build gliders i.e. build from scratch not a kit
 All Google seems to return is Models i.e.radio control

Is there a list of  suppliers somewhere that supplies Glider Avionics etc?


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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Gary Stevenson]

Neville,
The old saying goes that "you have to learn walk before you can run." In
your case you need to first of all learn how to crawl! My guess is that you
haven't the slightest idea on WHAT modern gliders are made of, let alone
HOW?

I suggest that you become a LOT more familiar about the sport itself, before
even THINKING about trying to build a glider.

If you want to gain some experience with working on wooden gliders, I
suggest that you contact the Vintage Gliding Association, and volunteer you
services, say 1 or 2 days per week. After you have done that for a year or
two you will have a better idea of the magnitude of the task, the skills
that are needed, and -let's face it - the plain stupidity of your idea!

If you are not convinced, here is another tip: Google "Concordia Project"
and follow the links. You will note that the first requirement is to be a
multi-millionaire!

Gary

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Neville
Sutton
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild


Where can one find Plans build gliders i.e. build from scratch not a kit
  All Google seems to return is Models i.e.radio control

Is there a list of  suppliers somewhere that supplies Glider Avionics etc?


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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Matthew Scutter]

Hi Neville,
You might find some value on this site http://www.hpaircraft.com/plans/
But as acknowledged on the page, not enough to build from scratch. On the
same site you'll find kits for the much more modern hp24. The creator is an
active poster on the US equivalent of this list, rec.aviation.soaring and
you might find more advice there.
As for avionics, swiftavionics and Borgelt instruments come to mind as
local suppliers.
I've seen complete plans for vintage aircraft show up on wingsandwheels
before too, may be worth keeping your eyes out there.
-matthew
On Aug 24, 2013 1:39 PM, "Neville Sutton"  wrote:

>
> Where can one find Plans build gliders i.e. build from scratch not a kit
>  All Google seems to return is Models i.e.radio control
>
> Is there a list of  suppliers somewhere that supplies Glider Avionics etc?
>
>
> __**_
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.**on.net 
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/**mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Terry Cubley]

My father in law built himself a large yacht and then learnt how to sail.
This may be the approach that Neville is considering for joining aviation.

Unfortunately (?) Neville, the rules around registration of home built
aircraft are quite restrictive, with many checks (cheques) and balances. I
support Gary's suggestion that you contact your closest gliding club and
indeed the vintage museum which has many home builders as members, and they
will be able to give you guidance on the options available.

Terry

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Gary
Stevenson
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:51 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

Neville,
The old saying goes that "you have to learn walk before you can run." In
your case you need to first of all learn how to crawl! My guess is that you
haven't the slightest idea on WHAT modern gliders are made of, let alone
HOW?

I suggest that you become a LOT more familiar about the sport itself, before
even THINKING about trying to build a glider.

If you want to gain some experience with working on wooden gliders, I
suggest that you contact the Vintage Gliding Association, and volunteer you
services, say 1 or 2 days per week. After you have done that for a year or
two you will have a better idea of the magnitude of the task, the skills
that are needed, and -let's face it - the plain stupidity of your idea!

If you are not convinced, here is another tip: Google "Concordia Project"
and follow the links. You will note that the first requirement is to be a
multi-millionaire!

Gary

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Neville
Sutton
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild


Where can one find Plans build gliders i.e. build from scratch not a kit
  All Google seems to return is Models i.e.radio control

Is there a list of  suppliers somewhere that supplies Glider Avionics etc?


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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3211/6603 - Release Date: 08/23/13

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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Bob Ward]

I feel that Gary's reply was far too dismissive of Neville's query. Many GFA 
members have built their own gliders, to name but a few, John Moore, Gary 
Sunderland and myself. Gary, I suggest that you probably know nothing of 
Neville's background, or potential competence to construct a homebuilt 
sailplane. To suggest that he refers to the Concordia web site as a guide as 
to what is involved, I respectfully consider is much more "stupid (ity) " 
than Neville's original query. The Concordia project is reaching for the 
stars, re performance. I know that is not where Neville is coming from.
It is still possible to build a very respectable homebuilt sailplane. Indeed 
there is an advertisement for a partially built US designed Falcon on the 
Madocks website. This aircraft if completed by a competent homebuilder, 
would be imminently competitive in the club or sports class. It is all 
fibreglass, and has the performance at least of a Libelle or Standard 
Cirrus. Unfortunately, the company promoting the kit went into receivership. 
so anyone attempting to complete the project, would have no factory support. 
More than this particular example were started in Aus. Unfortunately none 
were finished. To finish a homebuilt project requires real dedication. Ask 
me how I know!
As a dedicated homebuilder, I can never quite understand why sailplane 
homebuilding has not paralled powered homebuilding. I fly an RV7A power 
aircraft, which I built, which beats the pants off anything that would be 
available commercially, both with respect of capital cost and operating 
cost. And performance? Don't even bother to ask the question. I am also 
within the next year or so to present to the gliding movement the first 
example of a homebuilt glider tow plane, the Pik 27 , which I confidently 
believe may well halve the towing costs for my club. The Beaufort Gliding 
club is also going down a similar path with a different design, but using 
the same automotive engine and are due to fly shortly. This same club built 
from plans the training glider which they use to this day.
So in summary, Gary, as a very experienced homebuilder, I believe that you 
owe Neville an apology with your outrageous suggestion that his aspirations 
were "sheer stupidity"
Terry, of course, as our developments and promotions (or whatever)  officer 
for GFA, is much closer to the mark. Yes I agree that Neville needs to craw, 
then walk before flying. Other posts have pointed him in the correct 
direction. However for you to be completely dismissive of his aspirations of 
owning his own sailplane by means of homebuilding fall far short of the Gary 
Stevenson that I thought I knew rather well.

What a pity that this site does not have a moderator!

Regards to all
Bob Ward

-Original Message- 
From: Terry Cubley

Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:40 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

My father in law built himself a large yacht and then learnt how to sail.
This may be the approach that Neville is considering for joining aviation.

Unfortunately (?) Neville, the rules around registration of home built
aircraft are quite restrictive, with many checks (cheques) and balances. I
support Gary's suggestion that you contact your closest gliding club and
indeed the vintage museum which has many home builders as members, and they
will be able to give you guidance on the options available.

Terry

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Gary
Stevenson
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:51 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

Neville,
The old saying goes that "you have to learn walk before you can run." In
your case you need to first of all learn how to crawl! My guess is that you
haven't the slightest idea on WHAT modern gliders are made of, let alone
HOW?

I suggest that you become a LOT more familiar about the sport itself, before
even THINKING about trying to build a glider.

If you want to gain some experience with working on wooden gliders, I
suggest that you contact the Vintage Gliding Association, and volunteer you
services, say 1 or 2 days per week. After you have done that for a year or
two you will have a better idea of the magnitude of the task, the skills
that are needed, and -let's face it - the plain stupidity of your idea!

If you are not convinced, here is another tip: Google "Concordia Project"
and follow the links. You will note that the first requirement is to be a
multi-millionaire!

Gary

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Neville
Sutton
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.inte

Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[DMcD]

Hello Neville,

A possible starting point might be widola… the World Directory of
Leisure Aviation.

http://widola.com/index.php

They put out a magazine once a year which contains everything from
sailplanes to subsonic business jets, many of which are available as
home built.

So far as completely building something from scratch goes, most of the
plans are fairly basic gliders such as the GOAT which is an ultralight
rag and tube sailplane. My guess is that unless one was totally
committed to wood and glue, alu tube and fabric would be a faster,
cheaper and more predictable way of getting in the air.

The GOAT probably has a performance envelope which is fairly similar
to a Grunau Baby or thereabouts… probably better than a primary. The
problem with this type of glider is integrating it into a modern
glider movement.  The tow speeds would have been really low, weak
links would have been weak and gliders would have done a circuit
inside the boundary fence. Trying to mix this type of aircraft with a
modern gliding club would be difficult indeed.

The other problem is safety. Because the glider is lightweight and has
a relatively high drag, it has a fairly limited flight envelope like a
hang glider or paraglider. Anything over 12-15 knots ground wind speed
and you have to leave it in the hangar.

The one one for me which is perhaps the clincher is that none of the
designs that I haves seen have anything like enough suspension under
the pilot. So given a hard landing, it's up to your spine to absorb
the shock which is easier if you are really young.  Anyway, if you
want shitty performance and concomitant risks, why not fly a hang
glider or paraglider!

Moving on from there, you get into a proper modern ultralight
sailplane such as the Silent.

http://www.alisport.com/eu/eng/alianti.htm

Or if you are looking for something different so mainstream folk can
really laugh at you, why not try a Marske Flying Wing:

http://www.continuo.com/marske/kits.htm

These are real sailplanes and many of the ultralights have an LD of
better than 40:1 and can be bought as a kit or fully made up as
electric or IC self launchers (some years before the Germans worked it
out). However, they are ultralight and would need lightweight weak
links etc. which again gets you back into the integration problem. At
least, that was my feeling when I decided to go heavyweight.

The problem is that you can buy a nice Cirrus or Libelle for a
fraction of the cost of a scratch built glider (or about the same as a
high performance hang glider or two paragliders) and go gliding
straight away.

I think there would be a huge satisfaction from flying something that
you have made yourself, where you can avoid the idiocy of some of the
maintenance disasters that the mainstream German gliders perpetuate
but the truth is that some airworthy older glass glider will get you
flying faster for less with a greater safety margin. Sure, you will
probably have some of the designed-in maintenance headaches!

Good ruck!

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Gary Stevenson]

Hi Bob and All,
Bob, I think that you are confusing homebuilding, mostly powered aircraft
-but not excluding gliders - as such, and the concept of a raw novice
- in this case Neville - undertaking a glider homebuilding project, AT THIS
POINT IN TIME. Please carefully read those last five words, and then have
another look at what I said in my earlier posting.

>From Neville's earlier posts I made the following assumptions - some of
which may admittedly be off the mark - before I made my earlier posting.
Obviously Neville can fill in the gaps/correct assumptions etc, if he so
desires;

1. No experience in gliding
2. No or little experience in power flying
3. No knowledge of the history of gliding and how the gliders themselves
evolved
4. No aircraft building experience
5. Possibly some model building experience
6. No knowledge of aviation law - especially as it relates to home built
aircraft
7. No, or little knowledge, of aerodynamic theory

I also assumed that Neville was of sound mind.

Now when it comes to yourself, and the other people you named who have built
their own gliders, I think you will see the difference - except for my last
point. Obviously as glider pilots and home builders you are out of your
minds. Yeah, yeah, just joking! As Duke Ellington was apt to say "I love you
dearly."

I hope that clears-up a few points up for you?

Now I would like to move on to discuss the "Concordia Project" line in my
earlier email, to which you appear to have taken offence. You are of course
exactly right when you say this project was "reaching for the stars", and
just not in performance, which you mention, but also in "State of the Art
Sailplane Building", which you did not mention. These days everything is
benchmarked. In the "old days", believe it or not everything was benchmarked
too! Think about it! Anyway, in my opinion, Concordia is the current
benchmark in glider construction, against which everything else in gliding
construction - INCLUDING HOMEBUILTS - must be measured. In passing, it
occurs to me, that the Concordia is possibly also the benchmark for glider
DESIGN, which needs not particularly concern us here. 

Incidentally, if I remember correctly, the Oz JS1 agent said, a few years
ago, that something like 75,000 man hours went into getting that particular
ship flying.

Before I again move on, let me say that despite all the above, the only
reason I mentioned the Concordia Project was the superb series of images on
the Soaring Cafe site that accompanied the text, that shows how a MODERN
glider is actually built.

In the interim I have again visited the site, and for me, the fascination is
how the design (and build), team came together, how they worked together,
and how they got their result, after 10? years of hard work (and as I said
earlier, expenditure of millions of development/design dollars).

Bob, you pose the question as to why sailplane homebuilding has not
paralleled powered homebuilding, and yet in your email below, you give most
of the answers to your own question. To start with: low performance,
expensive to build, very time consuming. You confirm all this by saying
"Unfortunately none were finished. To finish a homebuilt project requires
real dedication. Ask me how I know!" 

Re the PIK 27, I am looking forward to my first tow behind the aircraft 
and reduced towing charges???

Regards,
Gary


 

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Bob Ward
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 7:59 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

I feel that Gary's reply was far too dismissive of Neville's query. Many GFA

members have built their own gliders, to name but a few, John Moore, Gary 
Sunderland and myself. Gary, I suggest that you probably know nothing of 
Neville's background, or potential competence to construct a homebuilt 
sailplane. To suggest that he refers to the Concordia web site as a guide as

to what is involved, I respectfully consider is much more "stupid (ity) " 
than Neville's original query. The Concordia project is reaching for the 
stars, re performance. I know that is not where Neville is coming from.
It is still possible to build a very respectable homebuilt sailplane. Indeed

there is an advertisement for a partially built US designed Falcon on the 
Madocks website. This aircraft if completed by a competent homebuilder, 
would be imminently competitive in the club or sports class. It is all 
fibreglass, and has the performance at least of a Libelle or Standard 
Cirrus. Unfortunately, the company promoting the kit went into receivership.

so anyone attempting to complete the project, would have no factory support.

More than this particular example were started in Aus. Unfortunately none 
were finished. To finish a

Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Peter Champness]

Regarding Designer Builders in Australia:

Gary Sunderland's MOBA is probably the best known, even though it has not
been seen for quite a few years.

The Beaufort Gliding Club Zephyrus two seater still flies regularly.  It
was designed by Doug Lyon and built by the club members.  I have just
completed the annual form 2.  It has done 17,162 flights and 6,694 flying
hours!  On that basis I would say it is the most successful home designed
and built glider in the world.

Then there are the John Grant JG1 and JG2.  Two examples of the JG2 were
built.  David House can probably provide more details but I think that they
are all potentially airworthy.

Peter Champness


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Bob Ward  wrote:

> I feel that Gary's reply was far too dismissive of Neville's query. Many
> GFA members have built their own gliders, to name but a few, John Moore,
> Gary Sunderland and myself. Gary, I suggest that you probably know nothing
> of Neville's background, or potential competence to construct a homebuilt
> sailplane. To suggest that he refers to the Concordia web site as a guide
> as to what is involved, I respectfully consider is much more "stupid (ity)
> " than Neville's original query. The Concordia project is reaching for the
> stars, re performance. I know that is not where Neville is coming from.
> It is still possible to build a very respectable homebuilt sailplane.
> Indeed there is an advertisement for a partially built US designed Falcon
> on the Madocks website. This aircraft if completed by a competent
> homebuilder, would be imminently competitive in the club or sports class.
> It is all fibreglass, and has the performance at least of a Libelle or
> Standard Cirrus. Unfortunately, the company promoting the kit went into
> receivership. so anyone attempting to complete the project, would have no
> factory support. More than this particular example were started in Aus.
> Unfortunately none were finished. To finish a homebuilt project requires
> real dedication. Ask me how I know!
> As a dedicated homebuilder, I can never quite understand why sailplane
> homebuilding has not paralled powered homebuilding. I fly an RV7A power
> aircraft, which I built, which beats the pants off anything that would be
> available commercially, both with respect of capital cost and operating
> cost. And performance? Don't even bother to ask the question. I am also
> within the next year or so to present to the gliding movement the first
> example of a homebuilt glider tow plane, the Pik 27 , which I confidently
> believe may well halve the towing costs for my club. The Beaufort Gliding
> club is also going down a similar path with a different design, but using
> the same automotive engine and are due to fly shortly. This same club built
> from plans the training glider which they use to this day.
> So in summary, Gary, as a very experienced homebuilder, I believe that you
> owe Neville an apology with your outrageous suggestion that his aspirations
> were "sheer stupidity"
> Terry, of course, as our developments and promotions (or whatever)
>  officer for GFA, is much closer to the mark. Yes I agree that Neville
> needs to craw, then walk before flying. Other posts have pointed him in the
> correct direction. However for you to be completely dismissive of his
> aspirations of owning his own sailplane by means of homebuilding fall far
> short of the Gary Stevenson that I thought I knew rather well.
> What a pity that this site does not have a moderator!
>
> Regards to all
> Bob Ward
>
> -Original Message- From: Terry Cubley
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2013 4:40 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild
>
> My father in law built himself a large yacht and then learnt how to sail.
> This may be the approach that Neville is considering for joining aviation.
>
> Unfortunately (?) Neville, the rules around registration of home built
> aircraft are quite restrictive, with many checks (cheques) and balances. I
> support Gary's suggestion that you contact your closest gliding club and
> indeed the vintage museum which has many home builders as members, and they
> will be able to give you guidance on the options available.
>
> Terry
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
> aus-soaring-bounces@lists.**internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-bounces@**lists.internode.on.net]
> On Behalf Of Gary
> Stevenson
> Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:51 PM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild
>
> Neville,
> The old saying goes that "you have to learn walk before you can run." In
> your case y

Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[john.mcfarlane]

The rules aren't so much of an issue as is the cost in both Time and Money.

Experimental Category is almost as lose as If you think a Starched Wheat
sack and Binder twine can fly, then go ahead; however the following applies:
- Don't fly it in Class E/A Airspace - Not so much of an issue for most
glider pilots.
- Use of Aeronautical Grade material makes approvals easier - but isn't
required if you, as the design authority(and constructor) incorporate
Commercial fasteners and material spec's in to the vehicle etc.
- Only Fly over open uninhabited land - Seem to recall most glider pilots
spend an in-ordinate bunch of time in these places.
- Don't fly over towns or kindergartens. 
- Put a big experimental sticker in the cockpit
- etc

Now Don't expect a CASA/ATSB Party if you prang - they don't care! unless
some of the above points are not complied with (Especially Kindergartens).
Insurance can be frightfully expensive, maybe even impossible, and should be
considered before sinking Cash and time in to this.
You may run out of Design Intent and Ability, and Time before creating
something.
No one cares about re-inventing the wheel - just don't copy my wheel or I
will call it plagiarism, Or buy the plans from someone else.
As the builder/designer, you will also wear "any liability", so In use, post
sale to someone else(who probably also cant insure it) etc. you will have a
Liability noose around your neck - This unfortunately may see your hard
fought time in creating something actually being worth nothing.

That being said, could be a fantastically rewarding endeavour, and a great
way to learn some really interesting aspects about Aviation and Aircraft -
Who knows you may actually design something that the whole world wants.

Personally, I would find an old unloved Boomerang and restore it(Completely
- same result, less pain)

Regards
John


 



-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Terry
Cubley
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 4:11 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

My father in law built himself a large yacht and then learnt how to sail.
This may be the approach that Neville is considering for joining aviation.

Unfortunately (?) Neville, the rules around registration of home built
aircraft are quite restrictive, with many checks (cheques) and balances. I
support Gary's suggestion that you contact your closest gliding club and
indeed the vintage museum which has many home builders as members, and they
will be able to give you guidance on the options available.

Terry

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Gary
Stevenson
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:51 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

Neville,
The old saying goes that "you have to learn walk before you can run." In
your case you need to first of all learn how to crawl! My guess is that you
haven't the slightest idea on WHAT modern gliders are made of, let alone
HOW?

I suggest that you become a LOT more familiar about the sport itself, before
even THINKING about trying to build a glider.

If you want to gain some experience with working on wooden gliders, I
suggest that you contact the Vintage Gliding Association, and volunteer you
services, say 1 or 2 days per week. After you have done that for a year or
two you will have a better idea of the magnitude of the task, the skills
that are needed, and -let's face it - the plain stupidity of your idea!

If you are not convinced, here is another tip: Google "Concordia Project"
and follow the links. You will note that the first requirement is to be a
multi-millionaire!

Gary

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Neville
Sutton
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 2:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild


Where can one find Plans build gliders i.e. build from scratch not a kit
  All Google seems to return is Models i.e.radio control

Is there a list of  suppliers somewhere that supplies Glider Avionics etc?


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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3392 / Virus Database: 3211/6603 - Release Date: 08/23/13

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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Ben Jones]

Google "Woodstock glider" Home built sailplane



-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Neville Sutton
Sent: Saturday, 24 August 2013 12:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild


Where can one find Plans build gliders i.e. build from scratch not a kit
  All Google seems to return is Models i.e.radio control

Is there a list of  suppliers somewhere that supplies Glider Avionics etc?


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Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Mike Borgelt]

John,

It isn't even that difficult.

At 08:07 PM 25/08/2013, you wrote:


The rules aren't so much of an issue as is the cost in both Time and Money.

Experimental Category is almost as lose as If you think a Starched Wheat
sack and Binder twine can fly, then go ahead; however the following applies:
- Don't fly it in Class E/A Airspace - Not so much of an issue for most
glider pilots.


I'm pretty sure some Experimental Lancair 4Ps with Walter turbines 
are flying in A airspace and certainly there's no trouble with E or D 
or C after the test flight hours are flown off. 40 hours for 
uncertified engines, 25 if certified engine and prop are used. For 
gliders in the US it is either 5 or 10 hours , I can't remember 
which. I don't think this has been tested in Australia yet.





- Use of Aeronautical Grade material makes approvals easier - but isn't
required if you, as the design authority(and constructor) incorporate
Commercial fasteners and material spec's in to the vehicle etc.



Be prepared with a good story as to why these are acceptable, though. 
It is smart to use aircraft hardware and wiring anyway.



- Only Fly over open uninhabited land - Seem to recall most glider pilots
spend an in-ordinate bunch of time in these places.
- Don't fly over towns or kindergartens.



Not so once the test flight hours are flown off. The only difference 
is that you must be able to glide clear of built up areas. You can 
fly over them down to 1000 feet with this proviso. With certified 
aircraft you aren't required to be able to glide clear.
There is also a blanket exemption for approaching, landing and taking 
off and departing from aerodromes.



- Put a big experimental sticker in the cockpit



Yes. along with a  "Passengers fly in the aircraft at own risk, CASA 
does not set safety standards for these aircraft." (not the exact wording)



- etc

Now Don't expect a CASA/ATSB Party if you prang - they don't care! unless
some of the above points are not complied with (Especially Kindergartens).



That's right. Sport aviation safety in Australia is a disgrace. 
Including gliding.



Insurance can be frightfully expensive, maybe even impossible, and should be
considered before sinking Cash and time in to this.



Not so. SAAA members can get insurance, so can others. Not too bad 
when the test flight period is over. You may have trouble insuring 
the first few hours of test flying.



You may run out of Design Intent and Ability, and Time before creating
something.
No one cares about re-inventing the wheel - just don't copy my wheel or I
will call it plagiarism, Or buy the plans from someone else.
As the builder/designer, you will also wear "any liability", so In use, post
sale to someone else(who probably also cant insure it) etc. you will have a
Liability noose around your neck - This unfortunately may see your hard
fought time in creating something actually being worth nothing.



The operator of an Experimental is responsible for the safe operation 
thereof. As a buyer you may have trouble suing the builder after it 
has had an Annual Condition Inspection by a LAME. (required if you 
don't hold the Repairman Certificate which you can only get as the builder.)



There is a lot of help available if you want to build your own 
aircraft. The US EAA has lots of information as do SAAA and RAAus and 
it is fairly easy to find knowledgeable people for advice, including 
LAMEs. Going to the  Vintage Glider Association is probably a 
complete waste of time, particularly if you want to build in 
composite or metal and wrong advice from Gary Stevenson and Terry 
Cubley really doesn't help. Well done, guys. He sure won't appear at 
a gliding club.


None of you even bothered to ask what the motivation was behind 
Neville's enquiry.  Whenever someone asks me what aircraft they 
should build or buy I ask "what's the mission?" Neville was 
interested in a RAAus homebuilt which he though he might be able to 
fly a little more cheaply if it had some soaring capability. There's 
a fair bit of this going on in the RAAus (why else would you buy a 
vario?) but they are now being told they can't turn off the engine, 
which they are sensibly ignoring. The RAAus is dysfunctional anyway 
like the GFA. Yesterday someone told me the GFA was "concentrating so 
hard on chickenshit things they are missing the things that are 
killing people". Sounds about right to me.


Right now, I'm told,  the interests of glider owners and operators re 
airworthiness are being sold out to CASA by "your GFA" as  the office 
holders roll over the have their tummies tickled by CASA who must be 
wondering why this is all so easy for them.


Mike











-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On B

Re: [Aus-soaring] ScratchBuild

[Mike Borgelt]

Experimental homebuilts are awesome.


TheBallyBomber.com 

Now about that B-36

Mike







Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
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P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia  ___
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