Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
yep that was the point JR - Original Message - From: "Bruce Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > I guess there are a few things to consider when contemplating a total > electrical failure. The first is that in many hours and many kilometres I > have never had one, though I am quite fussy about how I set up and care for > the whole system. The second is that with the B40/B400 you would have an > independently supplied averager/audio still running, and the third is that > if you were flying a comp, you would now have no means of verification, so > you may as well go home anyway. I guess your point is that going home might > be pretty difficult with nothing but an altimeter... > > BT > > - Original Message - > From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > > > > Thanks Bruce, > > I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and > > the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be > > up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that > > reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. > > regards JR > > - Original Message - > > From: "Bruce Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > > > > > >> I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that > >> quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing > > that > >> really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you > > are > >> looking for it to stay positive. > >> > >> I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with > >> a > >> electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an > > audio > >> and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make > >> such an instrument for about 10 years now! > >> > >> I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country > >> pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and > >> good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful > >> info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. > > When > >> you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back > >> inside > >> the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to "look up and out" when > >> the > >> pressure is on. > >> > >> BT > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >> > >> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM > >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > >> > >> > >> > Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody > > else > >> > other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? > >> > regards JR > >> > - Original Message - > >> > From: "Luke Dodd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > >> > > >> > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > >> > > >> > > >> >> > I have taken too much space already... back into my box. > >> >> > > >> >> > BT > >> >> > >> >> Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. > >> >> > >> >> Luke > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ___ > >> >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > >> >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> >> > >>
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I guess there are a few things to consider when contemplating a total electrical failure. The first is that in many hours and many kilometres I have never had one, though I am quite fussy about how I set up and care for the whole system. The second is that with the B40/B400 you would have an independently supplied averager/audio still running, and the third is that if you were flying a comp, you would now have no means of verification, so you may as well go home anyway. I guess your point is that going home might be pretty difficult with nothing but an altimeter... BT - Original Message - From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: "Bruce Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to "look up and out" when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else > other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? > regards JR > - Original Message - > From: "Luke Dodd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > > >> > I have taken too much space already... back into my box. >> > >> > BT >> >> Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. >> >> Luke >> >> >> ___ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: "Bruce Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that > quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that > really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are > looking for it to stay positive. > > I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a > electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio > and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make > such an instrument for about 10 years now! > > I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country > pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and > good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful > info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When > you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside > the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to "look up and out" when the > pressure is on. > > BT > > - Original Message - > From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > > > > Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else > > other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? > > regards JR > > - Original Message ----- > > From: "Luke Dodd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > > > Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > > > > > >> > I have taken too much space already... back into my box. > >> > > >> > BT > >> > >> Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. > >> > >> Luke > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Aus-soaring mailing list > >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > >> To check or change subscription details, visit: > >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > >> > > > > ___ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to "look up and out" when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: "Luke Dodd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > I have taken too much space already... back into my box. > > BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: "Luke Dodd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) > > I have taken too much space already... back into my box. > > > > BT > > Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. > > Luke > > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Further to Bruce a few years ago a guy had a needle fall off his electric vario and he was actually happy to keep flying that week as it made him listen to the audio. He still had his digital averager which was the only thing he wanted to look at!! Ian McPhee - Original Message - From: "Bruce Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Hi All, I was imagining I might be able to stay silent, but I can't help myself... Please, no offence to Mike or any others, it is just that we all see things slightly differently, thank heavens. I don't think I ever watch the vario needle while flying. I would very happily fly at any level with a good audio and a large, easily read digital averager set high on the panel, and pretty much nothing else. Soon I plan to fly some comp days with everything else covered up, just to see whether I really do ignore it, but I have had a number of people flying in the back seat while I am in front comment on the fact that I almost never look at the panel. I prefer my audio to have a single tone, and find no need for any indication of whether I am in rising air that is above or below my Macready setting. I simply want to know if I am going up, or if I am not. I also do not use relative netto during the cruise, but this is a very personal choice. This audio MUST be as close to perfectly compensated as is possible with the system that you are using. I have to say that very few gliders I have borrowed/stolen have a vario that really works. And I have to agree totally with Mike - if the vario signal is coming from one source, then make it a good one, and if it is coming from two sources, pitot and static, then give it a good chance of working and keep the lines from both as close to the same length as you can. This doesn't have to cost heaps of money. Work on the KISS principle... The decision to stop and climb in any particular bit of rising air comes from other sources, primarily the structure of the thermal that is felt as you fly into it, much more than any peak vario indication. Usually you find that a well-structured thermal will produce a better bottom-to-top average than one which shows strong gusts and high peak readings as you approach it. As you are arriving at the edge of a thermal is not a good time to be watching the panel, for a lot of reasons. I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT - Original Message - From: "Mike Borgelt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some ad
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
> I have taken too much space already... back into my box. > > BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Hi All, I was imagining I might be able to stay silent, but I can't help myself... Please, no offence to Mike or any others, it is just that we all see things slightly differently, thank heavens. I don't think I ever watch the vario needle while flying. I would very happily fly at any level with a good audio and a large, easily read digital averager set high on the panel, and pretty much nothing else. Soon I plan to fly some comp days with everything else covered up, just to see whether I really do ignore it, but I have had a number of people flying in the back seat while I am in front comment on the fact that I almost never look at the panel. I prefer my audio to have a single tone, and find no need for any indication of whether I am in rising air that is above or below my Macready setting. I simply want to know if I am going up, or if I am not. I also do not use relative netto during the cruise, but this is a very personal choice. This audio MUST be as close to perfectly compensated as is possible with the system that you are using. I have to say that very few gliders I have borrowed/stolen have a vario that really works. And I have to agree totally with Mike - if the vario signal is coming from one source, then make it a good one, and if it is coming from two sources, pitot and static, then give it a good chance of working and keep the lines from both as close to the same length as you can. This doesn't have to cost heaps of money. Work on the KISS principle... The decision to stop and climb in any particular bit of rising air comes from other sources, primarily the structure of the thermal that is felt as you fly into it, much more than any peak vario indication. Usually you find that a well-structured thermal will produce a better bottom-to-top average than one which shows strong gusts and high peak readings as you approach it. As you are arriving at the edge of a thermal is not a good time to be watching the panel, for a lot of reasons. I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT - Original Message - From: "Mike Borgelt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some additional problems - the pitot and static ports are more sensitive to yaw and sideslip than the modern two hole TE probe is and you need to organise the pitot and static signals to arrive at the same time at the instrument to avoid undesirable transient effects. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 42
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some additional problems - the pitot and static ports are more sensitive to yaw and sideslip than the modern two hole TE probe is and you need to organise the pitot and static signals to arrive at the same time at the instrument to avoid undesirable transient effects. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
