Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[gstevo10]

Hi Mike,
Thank God - He used it you know, for communicating with Moses - that you did 
not use SLATE as your medium!

Thanks for the translation.

Gary
  - Original Message - 
  From: Mike Timbrell 
  To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
  Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 4:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring


  G’day Gary,

   

  I knew I should never have used that heavy paper in those hypothetical exams!

   

  BTW, the text is Italian. “There is half a sea between saying & doing.”

   

  mike

   

  From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
gstev...@bigpond.com
  Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 11:15 PM
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

   

  Hi Tim,

  Roaming hands are common worldwide, but the Romans are now gone, and except 
for specialists - have you read the ultimate text ("The Specialist"), on dunny 
building by the way? - {another example of lost knowledge}, so is the Latin 
language! Thank God for google fish, but I am a bit confused as to what ear I 
should put it in.

   

  Your post reminds me of one (possibly hypothetical), way of grading exam 
papers. Find a building higher than one storey, go to the head of the stairs, 
and then toss all exam papers into the ether. They will all come to earth, and 
it is then a simple matter to grade the papers. The ones that go furthest get 
the highest mark, and the ones that land closest to the stairs get the lowest 
mark. Warning: Please be aware that sometimes bullshit baffles brains!  In 
essence, it is a bit like scoring a glider competition really!

   

  Thanks for your recent advice on using flarm for logging gold and silver 
badge flights. I had a nice flight  - was it only yesterday? 

   

  The wheel turns. Hope your own Wednesday flight was good value? 

   

  Gary

   

   

- Original Message - 

From: Tim Shirley 

To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:01 PM

    Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

 

The best handicap system I have heard of for gliding (admittedly 
theroretical) worked like this.

 

1.   At the start of the competition each pilot nominates the value of 
his or her glider.  These valuations are made public.

 

2.   The handicaps are then based on the pilots valuation according to 
some fairly simple formula  – the lower value, the more favourable the handicap 
of course.

 

3.   The he pilot signs a guarantee that they will sell the glider to 
anyone who comes up with the valuation figure, at the end of the competition.

 

That should sort out the problem quite nicely I think.  Anyone interested 
in a cheap JS1 that just won the Nationals? J

 

And, for those who have posted on this topic without ever having organised, 
scored or handicapped a gliding competition, or in fact have done anything here 
except bitch about those that do, there are a few words just under my signature 
below.  Google translator will soon tell you why they are relevant to you.

 

Do it yourselves next time.

 

Cheers

 

Tim

Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 20:41
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
    Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

Peter,

That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and 
fairly), done?

 

Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to 
start early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite 
- at a National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking 
should be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most 
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully 
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}

 

Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets 
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.

 

The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable 
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other 
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this 
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the 
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those 
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around 
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called 
Murray Evans (Murra

Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Mike Timbrell]

G’day Gary,

 

I knew I should never have used that heavy paper in those hypothetical exams!

 

BTW, the text is Italian. “There is half a sea between saying & doing.”

 

mike

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 11:15 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

Hi Tim,

Roaming hands are common worldwide, but the Romans are now gone, and except for 
specialists - have you read the ultimate text ("The Specialist"), on dunny 
building by the way? - {another example of lost knowledge}, so is the Latin 
language! Thank God for google fish, but I am a bit confused as to what ear I 
should put it in.

 

Your post reminds me of one (possibly hypothetical), way of grading exam 
papers. Find a building higher than one storey, go to the head of the stairs, 
and then toss all exam papers into the ether. They will all come to earth, and 
it is then a simple matter to grade the papers. The ones that go furthest get 
the highest mark, and the ones that land closest to the stairs get the lowest 
mark. Warning: Please be aware that sometimes bullshit baffles brains!  In 
essence, it is a bit like scoring a glider competition really!

 

Thanks for your recent advice on using flarm for logging gold and silver badge 
flights. I had a nice flight  - was it only yesterday? 

 

The wheel turns. Hope your own Wednesday flight was good value? 

 

Gary

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Tim Shirley <mailto:tshir...@internode.on.net>  

To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
<mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>  

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:01 PM

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

 

The best handicap system I have heard of for gliding (admittedly theroretical) 
worked like this.

 

1.   At the start of the competition each pilot nominates the value of his 
or her glider.  These valuations are made public.

 

2.   The handicaps are then based on the pilots valuation according to some 
fairly simple formula  – the lower value, the more favourable the handicap of 
course.

 

3.   The he pilot signs a guarantee that they will sell the glider to 
anyone who comes up with the valuation figure, at the end of the competition.

 

That should sort out the problem quite nicely I think.  Anyone interested in a 
cheap JS1 that just won the Nationals? J

 

And, for those who have posted on this topic without ever having organised, 
scored or handicapped a gliding competition, or in fact have done anything here 
except bitch about those that do, there are a few words just under my signature 
below.  Google translator will soon tell you why they are relevant to you.

 

Do it yourselves next time.

 

Cheers

 

Tim

Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 20:41
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

Peter,

That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and 
fairly), done?

 

Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to start 
early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite - at a 
National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking should 
be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most 
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully 
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}

 

Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets 
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.

 

The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable 
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other 
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this 
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the 
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those 
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around 
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called 
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's 
performance back to their glider polar, and the results for the day were then 
"corrected". The system was tried once, and promptly abandoned, as being 
unworkable - which was fair enough at the time. The first and possibly major 
problem then, was obtaining realistic polars, for the gliders competing. Number 
crunching (laughable today), was also a problem, as I recall. In my view, it 
might no

Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[gstevo10]

Hi Tim,
Roaming hands are common worldwide, but the Romans are now gone, and except for 
specialists - have you read the ultimate text ("The Specialist"), on dunny 
building by the way? - {another example of lost knowledge}, so is the Latin 
language! Thank God for google fish, but I am a bit confused as to what ear I 
should put it in.

Your post reminds me of one (possibly hypothetical), way of grading exam 
papers. Find a building higher than one storey, go to the head of the stairs, 
and then toss all exam papers into the ether. They will all come to earth, and 
it is then a simple matter to grade the papers. The ones that go furthest get 
the highest mark, and the ones that land closest to the stairs get the lowest 
mark. Warning: Please be aware that sometimes bullshit baffles brains!  In 
essence, it is a bit like scoring a glider competition really!

Thanks for your recent advice on using flarm for logging gold and silver badge 
flights. I had a nice flight  - was it only yesterday? 

The wheel turns. Hope your own Wednesday flight was good value? 

Gary


  - Original Message - 
  From: Tim Shirley 
  To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
  Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring


   

  The best handicap system I have heard of for gliding (admittedly 
theroretical) worked like this.

   

  1.   At the start of the competition each pilot nominates the value of 
his or her glider.  These valuations are made public.

   

  2.   The handicaps are then based on the pilots valuation according to 
some fairly simple formula  – the lower value, the more favourable the handicap 
of course.

   

  3.   The he pilot signs a guarantee that they will sell the glider to 
anyone who comes up with the valuation figure, at the end of the competition.

   

  That should sort out the problem quite nicely I think.  Anyone interested in 
a cheap JS1 that just won the Nationals? J

   

  And, for those who have posted on this topic without ever having organised, 
scored or handicapped a gliding competition, or in fact have done anything here 
except bitch about those that do, there are a few words just under my signature 
below.  Google translator will soon tell you why they are relevant to you.

   

  Do it yourselves next time.

   

  Cheers

   

  Tim

  Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare

   

  From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
gstev...@bigpond.com
  Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 20:41
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

   

  Peter,

  That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and 
fairly), done?

   

  Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to start 
early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite - at a 
National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking should 
be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most 
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully 
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}

   

  Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets 
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.

   

  The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable 
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other 
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this 
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the 
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those 
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around 
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called 
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's 
performance back to their glider polar, and the results for the day were then 
"corrected". The system was tried once, and promptly abandoned, as being 
unworkable - which was fair enough at the time. The first and possibly major 
problem then, was obtaining realistic polars, for the gliders competing. Number 
crunching (laughable today), was also a problem, as I recall. In my view, it 
might now prove profitable to revisit the principles of the ME concept, and 
check their workability in the current hi-tek environment. 

   

  Ann Woolf - given the tremendous (mind boggling?) - work that you have done 
on compiling the electronic AG data base - could I please call upon you to put 
the article(s?), that  appeared in Australian Gliding, on this web site, for 
the perusal and comment of a latter generation of glider pilots?

   

  Gary

   

- Original Message - 

From

Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Tim Shirley]

 

The best handicap system I have heard of for gliding (admittedly theroretical) 
worked like this.

 

1.   At the start of the competition each pilot nominates the value of his 
or her glider.  These valuations are made public.

 

2.   The handicaps are then based on the pilots valuation according to some 
fairly simple formula  – the lower value, the more favourable the handicap of 
course.

 

3.   The he pilot signs a guarantee that they will sell the glider to 
anyone who comes up with the valuation figure, at the end of the competition.

 

That should sort out the problem quite nicely I think.  Anyone interested in a 
cheap JS1 that just won the Nationals? J

 

And, for those who have posted on this topic without ever having organised, 
scored or handicapped a gliding competition, or in fact have done anything here 
except bitch about those that do, there are a few words just under my signature 
below.  Google translator will soon tell you why they are relevant to you.

 

Do it yourselves next time.

 

Cheers

 

Tim

Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 20:41
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

Peter,

That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and 
fairly), done?

 

Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to start 
early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite - at a 
National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking should 
be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most 
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully 
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}

 

Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets 
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.

 

The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable 
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other 
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this 
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the 
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those 
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around 
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called 
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's 
performance back to their glider polar, and the results for the day were then 
"corrected". The system was tried once, and promptly abandoned, as being 
unworkable - which was fair enough at the time. The first and possibly major 
problem then, was obtaining realistic polars, for the gliders competing. Number 
crunching (laughable today), was also a problem, as I recall. In my view, it 
might now prove profitable to revisit the principles of the ME concept, and 
check their workability in the current hi-tek environment. 

 

Ann Woolf - given the tremendous (mind boggling?) - work that you have done on 
compiling the electronic AG data base - could I please call upon you to put the 
article(s?), that  appeared in Australian Gliding, on this web site, for the 
perusal and comment of a latter generation of glider pilots?

 

Gary

 

- Original Message - 

From: nimb...@internode.on.net 

To: aus-soaring <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>  

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 6:00 PM

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

 

How about letting the previous generation 20m gliders fly in 15m class where 
the handicaps are much closer as compared to current generation open class.

The other factor that gives the higher performance gliders an advantage over 
the previous generation gliders when there is a large handicap spread is poor 
task setting. 
This occurs when racing tasks are set that force the lower performance gliders 
to fly in weaker conditions by having to start early or finish later. Where 
there is a significant spread in handicaps then racing tasks should not be set.

Regards
Peter

Sent from my HTC smartphone

- Reply message -
From: "Matthew Scutter" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 12:29


Ron,
Because the handicaps have practical limitations as gliders have
different performance characteristics in different weather, which
handicaps can't take into account.
The handicaps are probably fair for a Cirrus and an ASG29 on a 3kt
day, but they certainly aren't on a 12kt day.
This seems to be the general consensus - in normal weather, the
handicaps are close to the technical optimum, b

Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[gstevo10]

Peter,
That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and 
fairly), done?

Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to start 
early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite - at a 
National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking should 
be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most 
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully 
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}

Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets 
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.

The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable 
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other 
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this 
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the 
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those 
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around 
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called 
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's 
performance back to their glider polar, and the results for the day were then 
"corrected". The system was tried once, and promptly abandoned, as being 
unworkable - which was fair enough at the time. The first and possibly major 
problem then, was obtaining realistic polars, for the gliders competing. Number 
crunching (laughable today), was also a problem, as I recall. In my view, it 
might now prove profitable to revisit the principles of the ME concept, and 
check their workability in the current hi-tek environment. 

Ann Woolf - given the tremendous (mind boggling?) - work that you have done on 
compiling the electronic AG data base - could I please call upon you to put the 
article(s?), that  appeared in Australian Gliding, on this web site, for the 
perusal and comment of a latter generation of glider pilots?

Gary

  - Original Message - 
  From: nimb...@internode.on.net 
  To: aus-soaring 
  Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 6:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring


  How about letting the previous generation 20m gliders fly in 15m class where 
the handicaps are much closer as compared to current generation open class.

  The other factor that gives the higher performance gliders an advantage over 
the previous generation gliders when there is a large handicap spread is poor 
task setting. 
  This occurs when racing tasks are set that force the lower performance 
gliders to fly in weaker conditions by having to start early or finish later. 
Where there is a significant spread in handicaps then racing tasks should not 
be set.

  Regards
  Peter

  Sent from my HTC smartphone

  - Reply message -
  From: "Matthew Scutter" 
  To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

  Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
  Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 12:29


  Ron,
  Because the handicaps have practical limitations as gliders have
  different performance characteristics in different weather, which
  handicaps can't take into account.
  The handicaps are probably fair for a Cirrus and an ASG29 on a 3kt
  day, but they certainly aren't on a 12kt day.
  This seems to be the general consensus - in normal weather, the
  handicaps are close to the technical optimum, but in strong weather
  the higher performance gliders have an advantage.
  Technical ways to 'solve' this have been postulated for years,
  different handicaps for different weather etc, all of which sounds to
  me like too much work.

  How we solve it now is grouping the gliders in relatively similar
  performance classes.
  If higher performance gliders have an advantage in stronger weather,
  it makes sense they should not be able to come 'down' a class and fly
  with lower performance gliders.
  Whether it should work the other way depends on whether you believe
  that lower performance gliders have an edge in weaker weather.
  Personally I think the lower performance gliders do have an edge in
  survival weather, but that is almost entirely negated because we get
  less weak weather than strong, and we don't set tasks in survival
  weather (how often is a day cancelled for being too strong? ;) )

  I think the cause of this discussion is that while STD class is mostly
  populated with top-of-the-line STD class ships, 15M class is largely
  previous generation gliders - so many STD class pilots (particularly
  those in previous generation STD class gliders, myself included), feel
  we're flying closer to our 'effective' performance class in 15M.

  tldr; The system is a 'good enough' compromise.

  -matthew
  On Thu, Ma

Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[nimb...@internode.on.net]

How about letting the previous generation 20m gliders fly in 15m class where 
the handicaps are much closer as compared to current generation open class.

The other factor that gives the higher performance gliders an advantage over 
the previous generation gliders when there is a large handicap spread is poor 
task setting. 
This occurs when racing tasks are set that force the lower performance gliders 
to fly in weaker conditions by having to start early or finish later. Where 
there is a significant spread in handicaps then racing tasks should not be set.

Regards
Peter

Sent from my HTC smartphone

- Reply message -
From: "Matthew Scutter" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 12:29


Ron,
Because the handicaps have practical limitations as gliders have
different performance characteristics in different weather, which
handicaps can't take into account.
The handicaps are probably fair for a Cirrus and an ASG29 on a 3kt
day, but they certainly aren't on a 12kt day.
This seems to be the general consensus - in normal weather, the
handicaps are close to the technical optimum, but in strong weather
the higher performance gliders have an advantage.
Technical ways to 'solve' this have been postulated for years,
different handicaps for different weather etc, all of which sounds to
me like too much work.

How we solve it now is grouping the gliders in relatively similar
performance classes.
If higher performance gliders have an advantage in stronger weather,
it makes sense they should not be able to come 'down' a class and fly
with lower performance gliders.
Whether it should work the other way depends on whether you believe
that lower performance gliders have an edge in weaker weather.
Personally I think the lower performance gliders do have an edge in
survival weather, but that is almost entirely negated because we get
less weak weather than strong, and we don't set tasks in survival
weather (how often is a day cancelled for being too strong? ;) )

I think the cause of this discussion is that while STD class is mostly
populated with top-of-the-line STD class ships, 15M class is largely
previous generation gliders - so many STD class pilots (particularly
those in previous generation STD class gliders, myself included), feel
we're flying closer to our 'effective' performance class in 15M.

tldr; The system is a 'good enough' compromise.

-matthew
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Ron  wrote:
> I think you missed the point . If the handicaps are so good what does it
> matter whether the span in 100 metres or if it has flaps?
> Ron
>
>
>
> On 07/03/2013, at 6:48,  wrote:
>
> Ron,
> It is because they have flaps, of course!
> However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m
> (Racing) Class.
> Gary
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Ron Sanders
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> Dear Adam,
>  i agree with you!!
> And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted
> question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre flapped
> gliders allowed in Standard class?"
>
> The priorities are not in the right order.
> RS
>
> On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:
>>
>> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>>
>>
>> WPP
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>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
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>
>
> 
>
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>
> 
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Ron]

Adam you are right in all counts. It won't be implemented either
Ron

 

On 07/03/2013, at 7:40, Adam Woolley  wrote:

> It's a subject we're not going to win, but as you know - STD class gliders 
> have flexibility of flying both classes, but racing gliders are limited to 
> just one (at the MCN) class.
> 
> The handicaps are fair, yeah? So there's no advantage to be in a racing 
> glider while competing in STD class. Yet it's not allowed.
> 
> I know the reasoning, but still..!
> 
> As many will know, often when you compare the classes at the same comp - STD 
> class always seems to have the higher average day winning speeds. Perhaps 
> because its more competitive in STD & pilots have to push themselves harder?
> 
> The alternative...
> 
> My thinking (will submit to the handicap committee for review) is have a 1.00 
> glider for each class (like the golden old days, where there were no h/c), 
> then discourage gliders who shouldn't be in that particular class with a 
> slightly unfavorable h/c.
> 
> Eg, an LS4 could be 1.03 in 15m class, rather than 1.04 as it is in STD class 
> atm.
> 
> My guess though, that this will never be implemented - so I'll keep my 
> opinion as to why it won't happen to myself :)
> 
> 
> Strepla,
> WPP
> 
> On 07/03/2013, at 8:48,  wrote:
> 
>> Ron,
>> It is because they have flaps, of course!
>> However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m 
>> (Racing) Class.
>> Gary
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Ron Sanders
>> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>> 
>> Dear Adam,
>>  i agree with you!!  
>> And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted 
>> question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre flapped 
>> gliders allowed in Standard class?"
>> 
>> The priorities are not in the right order.
>> RS
>> 
>> On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:
>>> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Matthew Scutter]

Ron,
Because the handicaps have practical limitations as gliders have
different performance characteristics in different weather, which
handicaps can't take into account.
The handicaps are probably fair for a Cirrus and an ASG29 on a 3kt
day, but they certainly aren't on a 12kt day.
This seems to be the general consensus - in normal weather, the
handicaps are close to the technical optimum, but in strong weather
the higher performance gliders have an advantage.
Technical ways to 'solve' this have been postulated for years,
different handicaps for different weather etc, all of which sounds to
me like too much work.

How we solve it now is grouping the gliders in relatively similar
performance classes.
If higher performance gliders have an advantage in stronger weather,
it makes sense they should not be able to come 'down' a class and fly
with lower performance gliders.
Whether it should work the other way depends on whether you believe
that lower performance gliders have an edge in weaker weather.
Personally I think the lower performance gliders do have an edge in
survival weather, but that is almost entirely negated because we get
less weak weather than strong, and we don't set tasks in survival
weather (how often is a day cancelled for being too strong? ;) )

I think the cause of this discussion is that while STD class is mostly
populated with top-of-the-line STD class ships, 15M class is largely
previous generation gliders - so many STD class pilots (particularly
those in previous generation STD class gliders, myself included), feel
we're flying closer to our 'effective' performance class in 15M.

tldr; The system is a 'good enough' compromise.

-matthew
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Ron  wrote:
> I think you missed the point . If the handicaps are so good what does it
> matter whether the span in 100 metres or if it has flaps?
> Ron
>
>
>
> On 07/03/2013, at 6:48,  wrote:
>
> Ron,
> It is because they have flaps, of course!
> However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m
> (Racing) Class.
> Gary
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Ron Sanders
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> Dear Adam,
>  i agree with you!!
> And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted
> question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre flapped
> gliders allowed in Standard class?"
>
> The priorities are not in the right order.
> RS
>
> On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:
>>
>> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>>
>>
>> WPP
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>
> 
>
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> 
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[tom claffey]

Who said the handicaps were so good?
Regarding CLASSES, any glider which fits is fine.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Ron]

I think you missed the point . If the handicaps are so good what does it matter 
whether the span in 100 metres or if it has flaps?
Ron

 

On 07/03/2013, at 6:48,  wrote:

> Ron,
> It is because they have flaps, of course!
> However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m 
> (Racing) Class.
> Gary
> - Original Message -
> From: Ron Sanders
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> 
> Dear Adam,
>  i agree with you!!  
> And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting
> posted question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre 
> flapped gliders allowed in Standard class?"
> 
> The priorities are not in the right order.
> RS
> 
> On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:
>> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>> 
>> 
>> WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Mike Borgelt]

At 08:48 AM 7/03/2013, you wrote:

Ron,
It is because they have flaps, of course!
However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly 
in 15 m (Racing) Class.

Gary




Clean miss of the point again, Gary. Have a think about it.

Mike
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Adam Woolley]

Continuing on with the example, 

& in STD class, the LS4 would keep its 1.04 handicap - as it's competing in the 
class that it should be.


WPP



On 07/03/2013, at 8:48,  wrote:

> Ron,
> It is because they have flaps, of course!
> However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m 
> (Racing) Class.
> Gary
> - Original Message -
> From: Ron Sanders
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> 
> Dear Adam,
>  i agree with you!!  
> And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted 
> question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metreflapped 
> gliders allowed in Standard class?"
> 
> The priorities are not in the right order.
> RS
> 
> On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:
>> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>> 
>> 
>> WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Adam Woolley]

It's a subject we're not going to win, but as you know - STD class gliders have 
flexibility of flying both classes, but racing gliders are limited to just one 
(at the MCN) class.

The handicaps are fair, yeah? So there's no advantage to be in a racing glider 
while competing in STD class. Yet it's not allowed.

I know the reasoning, but still..!

As many will know, often when you compare the classes at the same comp - STD 
class always seems to have the higher average day winning speeds. Perhaps 
because its more competitive in STD & pilots have to push themselves harder?

The alternative...

My thinking (will submit to the handicap committee for review) is have a 1.00 
glider for each class (like the golden old days, where there were no h/c), then 
discourage gliders who shouldn't be in that particular class with a slightly 
unfavorable h/c.

Eg, an LS4 could be 1.03 in 15m class, rather than 1.04 as it is in STD class 
atm.

My guess though, that this will never be implemented - so I'll keep my opinion 
as to why it won't happen to myself :)


Strepla,
WPP

On 07/03/2013, at 8:48,  wrote:

> Ron,
> It is because they have flaps, of course!
> However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m 
> (Racing) Class.
> Gary
> - Original Message -
> From: Ron Sanders
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> 
> Dear Adam,
>  i agree with you!!  
> And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted 
> question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metreflapped 
> gliders allowed in Standard class?"
> 
> The priorities are not in the right order.
> RS
> 
> On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:
>> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>> 
>> 
>> WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[gstevo10]

Ron,
It is because they have flaps, of course!
However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m 
(Racing) Class.
Gary
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ron Sanders 
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring


  Dear Adam,
   i agree with you!!  
  And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted 
question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre flapped 
gliders allowed in Standard class?"


  The priorities are not in the right order.
  RS


  On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:

I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!


WPP
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--


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  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5651 - Release Date: 03/05/13
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Simon Rammelt]

On 5/03/2013 10:16 PM, Adam Woolley wrote:

I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!


WPP
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Did you put it on OLC I want to see it!

FQA
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Ron Sanders]

Dear Adam,
 i agree with you!!
And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted
question   " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre flapped
gliders allowed in Standard class?"

The priorities are not in the right order.
RS

On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley  wrote:

> I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome!
>
>
> WPP
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING: Qld States, Day 2

[Simon Rammelt]

Go! Adam Go!

Great write ups nice decision making processes. Well done, keep it up 
and good luck.


Simon
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING: Qld States, Day 2

[Ross McLean]

No link to the scores on the comp website but go to 

http://www.soaringspot.com/gq2012/results/

ROSS

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
Woolley
Sent: Monday, 1 October 2012 7:00 PM
To: Aus Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING: Qld States, Day 2

 

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/flightinfo.html?dsId=2762650



www.facebook.com/W3Racing
www.tinyurl.com/W3Tracking

Stats for the day...
307.7km @ 95.64km/hr; 4.5kts (23%); 45:1 for 16.3km glides @ an average
cruise speed of 131km/hr; Extra 17km covered in deviations (weakness
appearing??)

Weather, varying. Weak and reasonable height pre-start. First leg,
reasonable under CU. 2nd leg, higher bases and stronger climbs. 3rd leg,
streeting. 4th leg, lowering bases and approaching sea-breeze and
convergence - moving into strong winds below 2000' AGL to make approaches
fun to watch!

I was very happy with my planned start time, though dissapointed how I
executed it. Started ~300' to low, then took a weak climb soon after to
figure out whether I really wanted to start. Stupid, lost 1/2kph there for
sure.

Once on the way though, it was reasonably straight forward. The 2nd leg,
indescicive all the way. The problem, the large scrub area to cross. Far
right saw better CU's and a line of them, but would take me wayyy out of the
sector, the left was nothing spectacular, and direct had nice CU's though
patchy.

I after lots of moving around, I forced myself to take the direct route.
Thanks to the ClearNav's final glide ring (aka the omeba?), I was confident
to make the dash. 4.8kt climbs were the reward, though I was still slow due
to the cross-headwind and the terrain (not being able to drive low).

The 3rd leg, was started from the blue with a tidy little climb - then it
was onto a highway of CU's to max out the NE sector. All the time, keeping
my eye on home, I think I can do it!

Run home, 100km. Three routings. Left towards the convergence, but some good
but patchy CU's approaching - including a blue hole which potentially could
put me on the deck. Direct, fair and reasonable. Far FAR right, higher
bases, sun on the ground, and finish from 90* to track - but this @ the
time, might be the only way to finish the task...

I decide to go to the convergence. The first few climbs and glides were good
until I read my note: Win by not losing. So I took a 45* turn off course to
the center, rewarded with a nice climb to near base.

Now 30* back to the convergence, rewarded with reasonable climbs and
cruises. Leaving for home on a 3kt MC and 700 over. Once around the back of
the sea-breeze, it was smooth. Bump up the speed..

Looking ahead though, I was still keen to be conservative. So I asked for
the QNH & the wind. I lost 100' in the QNH change and the wind was far
stronger on the ground, than at alt.

Slow down boy! Once at the eye-ball stage of the final glide, I started to
lose out big time. I knew I could make the finish line - but how much speed
would I cross the boundary fence? In the end, plenty 70kts - I'm home!

What will tomorrow bring? 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Ruth Patching]

Good on you Adam. Think just how much better that Cirrus will go with the new 
skid on . Sent them today, snail mail. 

Patch 
- Original Message - 
From: "Adam Woolley"  
To: "Aus-Soaring"  
Sent: Monday, 17 September, 2012 6:48:45 AM (GMT+1000) Auto-Detected 
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring 

Wow. Just wow. What a great weekend. Just epic soaring conditions. Amazing 
camaraderie & many more hooked new JAG's! Both days sporting average climbs of 
5kts to 8,000'QNH under CU filled skies. 


Saturday the 15th September. With the sky looking soarable from 09:30 , both 
James 'Dutters' Dutschke, Lisa Turner and I looked skyward while preparing our 
gliders madly. James arriving from BNE & requiring a rig of his newly acquired 
Open Libelle. Lisa just going with the flow I think, and myself finishing up 
the weighing of W3 to finalise the Form2. 


We finally get airborne with a declared task of Tansey - Ban Ban X - Kingaroy. 
Which was later modified in flight to return home via Kumbia to give a total 
task length of 240km. Ivan being the gentleman he is, decided to return from 
his task to race around ours - calling before start 8kt climbs around to 7,000' 
for memory. 


Weak climbs in the Kingaroy area though, we were slow to climb. 2kts was all 
that was around, so slowly we spiralled to the wisps. All together in the start 
cylinder we naturally set off at 13:05 (!). Both of the first two climbs, 
4.5kts we ease into the task nicely. All talking together on routing options, 
we decided to overfly Wondai and link up to a highway (street) to the first 
turn. The smiles fast growing, the speeds pushing up. 89:1 for a 34km glide at 
75kts - before coring 7.5kts for a 1000'. 


Around the 1st turn, we take a detour to top up before heading into the 
slightly higher countryside. Before bouncing along with a couple of 5kt climbs. 
Dutters, Lisa and I all working nicely together. All sharing the lead and 
picking nice climbs. Around the 2nd turn, we take a slightly more curious 
approach. The sky in the Ban Ban area has some spread out. Once we're up and 
running though, we come up to a big decision point. Lots of discussion, 
conversing with Ivan up ahead - we somehow managed to split up, due to some 
miscommunication I suppose. 


Lisa and I down the Kingaroy valley, Dutters going direct into the lighter CU. 
We note the time, it's time to slow down and be a little more cautious. We all 
manage to link back up together approaching Kumbia, working nice lines of 
energy in the potentially approaching sea breeze. Onto final glide, easy. 


Thanks very much to Lisa whom provided some valuable coaching advice during the 
flight, had a great time! 


W3's stats for the day: 240km @ 111.03km/hr; 5.1kt (20%) climbs; 41:1 for 
16.4km glides at an average cruise speed of 77kts. Flying 5km extra in task 
deviations. 






Sunday the 16th September. Learning from yesterday, and looking at XCSkies - I 
thought the day would be soarable from 09:30 . With 9 or more gliders making it 
to the grid at 09:25 - it was sure to be a good day. The task planned on the 
grid, thanks to HK & BB - was a fantastic one for the today. Though with the 
sky we saw, we could've gone anywhere and had a ball. 8kt climbs around (if you 
jagged one) with 8,000' under CU. 


I launched first at 10am , with Dutters, Rhys Porter & Lisa Turner soon to 
follow - I'd climbed easily to 4,500' in 2kts. The whole local area was 
peppered with small CU, each of them were working. Once we were all up 
together, there wasn't going to be any waiting around for the big wings (VIT, 
HK, BB). 


The task: Cecil City - Chinchilla - Murgon - Kingaroy = 406km 


The first leg was rather pleasant and uneventful, crossing the bunya's with 
ease. Up ahead from Bell onwards, the sky over Dalby to Cecil city looks like 
it's going to rain! Staying high, we use the energy lines where we can - 
running the downwind edge of the clouds. James and I take one weak climb to 
stay connected, before putting the running shoes back on. Lisa had taken a 
route more Dalby way, cruising along nicely I saw. 


Turning for Chinchilla, across wind now. There were no real classic streeting 
options to go for, so just one cloud after another. I made an error, chasing 
some CU's to the west of track - before finally getting into the lower height 
bands again and having to diverge back towards the original direct track (out 
landing options to allow me to drive low if need be). Dutters and I had gotten 
split up prior to the 1st turn, so I radioed to him that it'd be best to race 
down the direct track. 


We manage to get back together overhead Kogan, was great to see you off my 
wingtip then mate! Sadly though, it wasn't to last, after just 5 minutes of 
cruising we were separated enough to have to fly our own races for a while. I 
jagged a 7.9kt climb just around the Chinchilla turn, before blasting off at 
cloud base. 


>From here, is where the fun really began. Long streets wer

Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Arie van Spronssen]

So that's what a cloud street looks like.

It's been so wet down here (NSW Central Coast) I got excited about 1 
knot to 2500 in the blue a few weeks back.


Arie



On 2/07/2012 5:32 PM, Adam Woolley wrote:

Video of the fun had on the weekend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxoVHG1vuT0


Cheers,
WPP



On 2012-07-02 01:40:05 + Bernie & Sue  wrote:


How nice to have a flying report on this forum, especially during winter.
Thanks Adam.


-Original Message-
  From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
Woolley
Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2012 6:39 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING

G'day All,

Thought I'd put a boring report together of my weekend soaring activity in
the KING-A-ROY area.  Saturday was a non-rostered tug pilot day, thankfully
though with a few phone calls we were lucky enough to get a launch at 1300 -
not one launch, but 5 of them for the hungry pilots that wouldn't accept no
gliding for an answer. Thanks DMF!  I spoke with Colin's passengers (who
took to the sky in the DUO) afterwards, they had a ball & enjoyed an evening
out at the club, before checking out the area on four wheels on Sunday.

Conditions saw an average of 2kt climbs around the area, even though they
were regular enough under very lightly spaced wisps - I didn't venture
outside of glide. Partly because the paddocks were quite wet in areas, &
fine elsewhere. I flew alongside Simon & Don up to heights of 6,500' -
thanks for the company. W3 is performing well, though with everything so
well sealed, it's blowing out the high pressure air out the wing-gap seals =
strategically placed vent required? I landed in the smooth conditions at
1530 after climbing in a weak climb earlier - great to be airborne again
after 10wks off!

I received a phone call from the Trotters saying that they'll be up on
Sunday, I naturally responded 'great, the weather is looking better for an
XC flight'. In the end, jagged that one - it was much better than forecast!

We launched at 1140 into weak conditions under a CU filled sky. Thankfully
after a 1/2hr, conditions improved & stayed that way. Declared task of
Kumbia, Murgon & home. Thankfully mother nature took it's place & set up an
epic street that we couldn't resist! I asked the Trotters what their goal
was for the day, they responded with 'just to pay particular attention to
having fun, & working on communications'. We promptly abandoned the task to
fly what looked like a great line. It was.

All three of us in close proximity, cruising down the line, just playing. My
first L/D was 167:1 for 50km, before running into a 7.1kt climb for 1100'.

  From there & after we turned around, all of us flying 78km at a staggering

277:1 ! We were joined by Colin & Simon on this street, turning for Murgon
approx 11km to the SE of Nanango.

Off the freight train & into regular XC conditions. The paddocks below we're
like lakes, thankfully the climbs were still there - working 4kts to the
North. Overhead Murgon the Trotters got the jump, climbing in a nice 5kt
climb. I was close by, but slow to react persisting with my 3kt climb to
long. We decided to keep tracking North on the track line towards Windera,
before pulling the pin approx 15km from the turn.

Changing gears now, we start topping up in weaker climbs & taking bigger
deviations as we enter areas of uncertainty & blue holes. Lisa surging ahead
now, picked up a climb over head Woroolin to get a marginal final glide in.
Pete had a slightly better run & landed quite a number of minutes ahead. I
took a similar route to Lisa, though topped up over Wondai in a weak climb
for the same marginal glide - knew I was home as I crossed the 7km point!

All in all a great winters day, 211km at 89.8kph; 3.7kt climbs (17%); 64:1
for 21.7km glides at 60kts. Movie to follow in a few days!

Where we're you?
WPP

P.S. off to Moresby for the first time on Tuesday, to start my induction
into Air Niugini. To date, I've passed my ground school & F100 sim training.
Let the next part of my adventure begin, hopefully it brings as much gliding
in the coming season as it did last!!


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To check or 

Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Adam Woolley]

Video of the fun had on the weekend: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxoVHG1vuT0


Cheers, 
WPP



On 2012-07-02 01:40:05 + Bernie & Sue  wrote:

> 
> How nice to have a flying report on this forum, especially during winter.
> Thanks Adam.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
>  From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
> [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
> Woolley
> Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2012 6:39 PM
> To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING
> 
> G'day All,
> 
> Thought I'd put a boring report together of my weekend soaring activity in
> the KING-A-ROY area.  Saturday was a non-rostered tug pilot day, thankfully
> though with a few phone calls we were lucky enough to get a launch at 1300 -
> not one launch, but 5 of them for the hungry pilots that wouldn't accept no
> gliding for an answer. Thanks DMF!  I spoke with Colin's passengers (who
> took to the sky in the DUO) afterwards, they had a ball & enjoyed an evening
> out at the club, before checking out the area on four wheels on Sunday.
> 
> Conditions saw an average of 2kt climbs around the area, even though they
> were regular enough under very lightly spaced wisps - I didn't venture
> outside of glide. Partly because the paddocks were quite wet in areas, &
> fine elsewhere. I flew alongside Simon & Don up to heights of 6,500' -
> thanks for the company. W3 is performing well, though with everything so
> well sealed, it's blowing out the high pressure air out the wing-gap seals =
> strategically placed vent required? I landed in the smooth conditions at
> 1530 after climbing in a weak climb earlier - great to be airborne again
> after 10wks off!
> 
> I received a phone call from the Trotters saying that they'll be up on
> Sunday, I naturally responded 'great, the weather is looking better for an
> XC flight'. In the end, jagged that one - it was much better than forecast!
> 
> We launched at 1140 into weak conditions under a CU filled sky. Thankfully
> after a 1/2hr, conditions improved & stayed that way. Declared task of
> Kumbia, Murgon & home. Thankfully mother nature took it's place & set up an
> epic street that we couldn't resist! I asked the Trotters what their goal
> was for the day, they responded with 'just to pay particular attention to
> having fun, & working on communications'. We promptly abandoned the task to
> fly what looked like a great line. It was.
> 
> All three of us in close proximity, cruising down the line, just playing. My
> first L/D was 167:1 for 50km, before running into a 7.1kt climb for 1100'.
>>  From there & after we turned around, all of us flying 78km at a staggering
> 277:1 ! We were joined by Colin & Simon on this street, turning for Murgon
> approx 11km to the SE of Nanango. 
> 
> Off the freight train & into regular XC conditions. The paddocks below we're
> like lakes, thankfully the climbs were still there - working 4kts to the
> North. Overhead Murgon the Trotters got the jump, climbing in a nice 5kt
> climb. I was close by, but slow to react persisting with my 3kt climb to
> long. We decided to keep tracking North on the track line towards Windera,
> before pulling the pin approx 15km from the turn.
> 
> Changing gears now, we start topping up in weaker climbs & taking bigger
> deviations as we enter areas of uncertainty & blue holes. Lisa surging ahead
> now, picked up a climb over head Woroolin to get a marginal final glide in.
> Pete had a slightly better run & landed quite a number of minutes ahead. I
> took a similar route to Lisa, though topped up over Wondai in a weak climb
> for the same marginal glide - knew I was home as I crossed the 7km point!
> 
> All in all a great winters day, 211km at 89.8kph; 3.7kt climbs (17%); 64:1
> for 21.7km glides at 60kts. Movie to follow in a few days!
> 
> Where we're you?
> WPP
> 
> P.S. off to Moresby for the first time on Tuesday, to start my induction
> into Air Niugini. To date, I've passed my ground school & F100 sim training.
> Let the next part of my adventure begin, hopefully it brings as much gliding
> in the coming season as it did last!!
> 
> 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Mike Borgelt]

At 06:39 PM 1/07/2012, you wrote:


 W3 is performing well, though with everything so well sealed, it's 
blowing out the high pressure air out the wing-gap seals = 
strategically placed vent required?



I have a mold for a JS1 style vent if you want to make yourself one. 
No little wing thingy for it yet but that will be done around the end of July.


Mike






Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring 
instrumentation since 1978

www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784:  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia  ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Bernie & Sue]

How nice to have a flying report on this forum, especially during winter.
Thanks Adam.


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
Woolley
Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2012 6:39 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING

G'day All,

Thought I'd put a boring report together of my weekend soaring activity in
the KING-A-ROY area.  Saturday was a non-rostered tug pilot day, thankfully
though with a few phone calls we were lucky enough to get a launch at 1300 -
not one launch, but 5 of them for the hungry pilots that wouldn't accept no
gliding for an answer. Thanks DMF!  I spoke with Colin's passengers (who
took to the sky in the DUO) afterwards, they had a ball & enjoyed an evening
out at the club, before checking out the area on four wheels on Sunday.

Conditions saw an average of 2kt climbs around the area, even though they
were regular enough under very lightly spaced wisps - I didn't venture
outside of glide. Partly because the paddocks were quite wet in areas, &
fine elsewhere. I flew alongside Simon & Don up to heights of 6,500' -
thanks for the company. W3 is performing well, though with everything so
well sealed, it's blowing out the high pressure air out the wing-gap seals =
strategically placed vent required? I landed in the smooth conditions at
1530 after climbing in a weak climb earlier - great to be airborne again
after 10wks off!

I received a phone call from the Trotters saying that they'll be up on
Sunday, I naturally responded 'great, the weather is looking better for an
XC flight'. In the end, jagged that one - it was much better than forecast!

We launched at 1140 into weak conditions under a CU filled sky. Thankfully
after a 1/2hr, conditions improved & stayed that way. Declared task of
Kumbia, Murgon & home. Thankfully mother nature took it's place & set up an
epic street that we couldn't resist! I asked the Trotters what their goal
was for the day, they responded with 'just to pay particular attention to
having fun, & working on communications'. We promptly abandoned the task to
fly what looked like a great line. It was.

All three of us in close proximity, cruising down the line, just playing. My
first L/D was 167:1 for 50km, before running into a 7.1kt climb for 1100'.
>From there & after we turned around, all of us flying 78km at a staggering
277:1 ! We were joined by Colin & Simon on this street, turning for Murgon
approx 11km to the SE of Nanango. 

Off the freight train & into regular XC conditions. The paddocks below we're
like lakes, thankfully the climbs were still there - working 4kts to the
North. Overhead Murgon the Trotters got the jump, climbing in a nice 5kt
climb. I was close by, but slow to react persisting with my 3kt climb to
long. We decided to keep tracking North on the track line towards Windera,
before pulling the pin approx 15km from the turn.

Changing gears now, we start topping up in weaker climbs & taking bigger
deviations as we enter areas of uncertainty & blue holes. Lisa surging ahead
now, picked up a climb over head Woroolin to get a marginal final glide in.
Pete had a slightly better run & landed quite a number of minutes ahead. I
took a similar route to Lisa, though topped up over Wondai in a weak climb
for the same marginal glide - knew I was home as I crossed the 7km point!

All in all a great winters day, 211km at 89.8kph; 3.7kt climbs (17%); 64:1
for 21.7km glides at 60kts. Movie to follow in a few days!

Where we're you?
WPP

P.S. off to Moresby for the first time on Tuesday, to start my induction
into Air Niugini. To date, I've passed my ground school & F100 sim training.
Let the next part of my adventure begin, hopefully it brings as much gliding
in the coming season as it did last!!


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

Never mind the good books, where's the bloody cheque book ?I had a ball
today, you shoulda been here..
JR
- Original Message - 
From: "Patching" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> Hey JR,
>
> I spent the best 10 minutes of my life in the LS 3 a, and didn't even get
> back to the launch point. Ended up on the cross strip. I decided it might
be
> better to just put it away. Spent even more great times cleaning the
> shortwing GRX of all the dust from the last few months that have dumped on
> it.
> I mean it just doesn't get any better does it?
>
> I took the DG 300 to Di's birthday and we are both very much in the VERY
> VERY GOOD books. Rigged, it looks fantastic. There is only one small
> problem, when she sits in it she dissappears. Phil could have saved
> thousands by just getting a half scale one.
>
> Keep having as much fun as you can and keep practicing for next rally.
>
> cheers
> Patch
> - Original Message - 
> From: "JR" 
> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
> 
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > Well it was just one of those days really, spent some time in the Oly
> > going
> > around, up and down, and covered a bit of country, best height was 3,200
> > feet.
> > regards
> > JR
> > - Original Message - 
> >>
> >> Aus-soaring mailing list
> >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> >> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >>
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Patching]

Hey JR,

I spent the best 10 minutes of my life in the LS 3 a, and didn't even get 
back to the launch point. Ended up on the cross strip. I decided it might be 
better to just put it away. Spent even more great times cleaning the 
shortwing GRX of all the dust from the last few months that have dumped on 
it.

I mean it just doesn't get any better does it?

I took the DG 300 to Di's birthday and we are both very much in the VERY 
VERY GOOD books. Rigged, it looks fantastic. There is only one small 
problem, when she sits in it she dissappears. Phil could have saved 
thousands by just getting a half scale one.


Keep having as much fun as you can and keep practicing for next rally.

cheers
Patch
- Original Message - 
From: "JR" 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring


Well it was just one of those days really, spent some time in the Oly 
going

around, up and down, and covered a bit of country, best height was 3,200
feet.
regards
JR
- Original Message - 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

Well it was just one of those days really, spent some time in the Oly going
around, up and down, and covered a bit of country, best height was 3,200
feet.
regards
JR
- Original Message - 
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Greg Beecroft]

Hello Brian

 

At the Beverley Soaring Society, we have a comprehensive Access program we
commissioned about 14 years ago. Its had the odd refinement over the years
and works well. Members flight and account information is also posted to our
web site. Members can look at from many years ago up to recent data.

 

We are in the process of implementing an Excel front end for direct input of
flight information on the airfield. Currently, input to Access is done by
our logkeeper using our written log sheets. The transfer of data from the
daily Excel file to the Access system will still be done by our logkeeper.

 

Excel is the most suitable as a front-end for use on the airfield. However,
Access is much more suitable for storing the data and assigning costs to
members accounts.

 

The access system has been set up to satisfy our particular way of doing
things. 

 

Let me know if you would like to look further at what we have.

 

Regards 
Greg Beecroft 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian and
Karen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2007 7:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

 

At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for some
time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly setout
and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, has
anyone out there already done this..?

 

Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club

 


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Ian McPhee]

I will tell you one thing an hour meter and air switch is the best way bar none 
to do a maintance release. In old days at Keepit I would land old Berg after 
last flight and before the tail was turned around I could have the hours 
written up  (I would guess the no of launches and was usually correct +/- one 
flight and some days gliders were doing 20 to 35 flights) -  The crap these 
days of entering things into computer and maybe 1 hour later the data is 
available for writing up the MR -  Hour meter/air switch is the only way to go 
for Maintance Release  
Ian M  
  - Original Message - 
  From: erich wittstock 
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 1:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff


  Dear "boring club members"
  I thought that I am the only one thinking about this but no!
  Now, here is a real challenge:
  There are clubs out there that are using commercial accounting packages i.e. 
Quick(en)Books, MYOB etc. 
  How do those clubs take care of pilot's logs and glider logs?

  We are required to keep track of flight movements as per MOSP:
  14.1.11 Keeping of records.
  All clubs must compile and keep such logbooks, flight records and time sheets 
as 
  will enable an accurate record of the club's flying operations to be 
maintained.
  These records must be made available to the RTO/Ops or the CTO/Ops on
  request.

  There are a few of free-ware versions of gliding club software packages 
available - unfortunately most of them are in German - which makes them 
useless. 

  Respectable clubs are entering data on-the-go on a laptop on the flight line 
- a simple double click enters take/off and landing time. Pilot's names / 
glider rego's etc are selected from drop down menus... 

  Could our QLD gliding branch or even the GFA come up with a decent program / 
plug-in (QB, MYOB) / spreadsheet / database for everyone to use.
  Even the tax department is providing a free version which is usable. 

  The "Gliding Club Computer Program" is quite ok but a bit dated.

  I have seen a prototype of the on-line booking system. It looks like to me 
that we all need a record system for log books, an accounting system and maybe 
on-line booking system. Would it be effective to do this as a combined effort 
for every club in Australia? That would free up more members to recruit and 
keep member retention up. 

  If Ian Perkins should read this how about it?

  all the best
  Erich
  (a useless treasurer...)




  On 6/19/07, Brian and Karen < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for some 
time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly 
setout and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that 
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, has 
anyone out there already done this..?



Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club





No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07 
3:02 PM



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Dave]

Hi Brian

 

I believe we at Waikerie have been looking at some software from WA RTO/S
James Cooper who works with Quicken and has developed a customised for
gliding 

Version of quicken. Someone on the group would have his contact details, or
they should be available on the GFA website

 

Regards

 

Dave L

 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian and
Karen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2007 8:38 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

 

At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for some
time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly setout
and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, has
anyone out there already done this..?

 

Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07 3:02
PM


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[erich wittstock]

Dear "boring club members"
I thought that I am the only one thinking about this but no!
Now, here is a real challenge:
There are clubs out there that are using commercial accounting packages i.e.
Quick(en)Books, MYOB etc.
How do those clubs take care of pilot's logs and glider logs?

We are required to keep track of flight movements as per MOSP:
14.1.11 Keeping of records.
All clubs must compile and keep such logbooks, flight records and time
sheets as
will enable an accurate record of the club's flying operations to be
maintained.
These records must be made available to the RTO/Ops or the CTO/Ops on
request.

There are a few of free-ware versions of gliding club software packages
available - unfortunately most of them are in German - which makes them
useless.

Respectable clubs are entering data on-the-go on a laptop on the flight line
- a simple double click enters take/off and landing time. Pilot's names /
glider rego's etc are selected from drop down menus...

Could our QLD gliding branch or even the GFA come up with a decent program /
plug-in (QB, MYOB) / spreadsheet / database for everyone to use.
Even the tax department is providing a free version which is usable.

The "Gliding Club Computer Program" is quite ok but a bit dated.

I have seen a prototype of the on-line booking system. It looks like to me
that we all need a record system for log books, an accounting system and
maybe on-line booking system. Would it be effective to do this as a combined
effort for every club in Australia? That would free up more members to
recruit and keep member retention up.

If Ian Perkins should read this how about it?

all the best
Erich
(a useless treasurer...)



On 6/19/07, Brian and Karen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for some
time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly
setout and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, has
anyone out there already done this..?



Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club



No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07
3:02 PM

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Derek Ruddock]

Brian, 

Can you contact me off line

 


  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian
and Karen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2007 9:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

 

At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for
some time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly
setout and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task,
has anyone out there already done this..?

 

Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07
3:02 PM


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Derek Ruddock]

We have been using a logging program I wrote in Access since 1996. It
has over 32,000 flights in it to date with no stability problems

 


  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian
and Karen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2007 9:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

 

At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for
some time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly
setout and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task,
has anyone out there already done this..?

 

Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07
3:02 PM


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Derek Ruddock]

And me 

 

Cheers 
  
Derek 
(02) 9342 8241 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian
and Karen
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2007 9:08 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

 

At Boonah we have been using the "Gliding Club Computer Program" for
some time to track our members flying accounts.

The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly
setout and only available as a text file.

We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that
would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task,
has anyone out there already done this..?

 

Regards

Brian Gilby

Boonah Club

 


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07
3:02 PM


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Gary]

Interesting! However Peter, are you in a position to estimate/guesstimate
the data base size required for an application such as Brian is suggesting -
assuming say a base load case of 100 members?

Gary 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of PTB
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2007 9:47 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

Be careful of database size with Access! The older version ('95?) only 
was stable to 1GB then became notoriously unreliable. M/soft proudly 
announced that they'd doubled the stability size in later versions to 
2GB, carefully omitting that each record was double the size of the 
previous version...

Brian and Karen wrote:
>
> At Boonah we have been using the “Gliding Club Computer Program” for 
> some time to track our members flying accounts.
>
> The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly 
> setout and only available as a text file.
>
> We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, 
> that would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.
>
> Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, 
> has anyone out there already done this..?
>
> Regards
>
> Brian Gilby
>
> Boonah Club
>

-- 
Regards,

..
   --\  __  /--
  \(..)/
  -;\/;-
  :: 
--::--
  //..\\
 VVVV
 '//||\\`
   ''``
Peregrine!


   "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground, and miss."
--- Ford Prefect




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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/2007
3:02 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/2007
3:02 PM
 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[PTB]

Be careful of database size with Access! The older version ('95?) only 
was stable to 1GB then became notoriously unreliable. M/soft proudly 
announced that they'd doubled the stability size in later versions to 
2GB, carefully omitting that each record was double the size of the 
previous version...

Brian and Karen wrote:
>
> At Boonah we have been using the “Gliding Club Computer Program” for 
> some time to track our members flying accounts.
>
> The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly 
> setout and only available as a text file.
>
> We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, 
> that would allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.
>
> Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, 
> has anyone out there already done this..?
>
> Regards
>
> Brian Gilby
>
> Boonah Club
>

-- 
Regards,

..
   --\  __  /--
  \(..)/
  -;\/;-
  :: 
--::--
  //..\\
 VVVV
 '//||\\`
   ''``
Peregrine!


   "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground, and miss."
--- Ford Prefect




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff

[Dave Shorter]

Hi Brian,

Contact me offline

Dave Shorter
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   (Note - no "au" in address)
11 Lighthouse Crescent
Emerald Beach NSW 2456
Ph/Fax: (02)6656 1979 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian and Karen 
  To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:07 PM
  Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Admin Stuff


  At Boonah we have been using the “Gliding Club Computer Program” for some 
time to track our members flying accounts.

  The program runs OK, but the members accounts reports are very poorly setout 
and only available as a text file.

  We were going to write a new program based around Access or Excel, that would 
allow use to upload logs/accounts to our website.

  Before we over commit ourselves to this involved and frustrating task, has 
anyone out there already done this..?

   

  Regards

  Brian Gilby

  Boonah Club

   



  No virus found in this outgoing message.
  Checked by AVG Free Edition.
  Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/853 - Release Date: 18/06/07 3:02 
PM




--


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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Quinn]

He's gone so native that he has also ended up the other side of the emu fence 
and the various rabbit proof fences!!

Redmond


- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Monday, 30 May 2005 11:00
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING


> Texler, Michael wrote:
> > Beverley Soaring Society, Out west on the correct side of the dog proof 
> > fence.
> 
> You've gone native, haven't you?
> 
>- mark :-)
> 
> 
> I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
> - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
> ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[stuart smith]

those avgas powered thermals are pretty handy on a non soarable day.   ;)

- Original Message - 
From: "Texler, Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING


Beverley Soaring Society, Out west on the correct side of the dog proof 
fence.

Sun 29th May 2005

Temp mid 20's, lovely sunny day. Inversion at 2,000'. Nothing really 
soarable.
In excess of 25 flights. Nice and smooth conditions, great day for 
trainees.


The Cunderdin GCWA Blanik arrived (Ian few it) and we were dismayed, how 
could it get to BSS on such a non-soarable day. The secret was a 7,000' 
aerotow!


Thanks to everyone who helped out.

M.T.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Mark Newton]

Texler, Michael wrote:

Beverley Soaring Society, Out west on the correct side of the dog proof fence.


You've gone native, haven't you?

  - mark :-)


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring at Balak' ...

[Patching]

Depends whether it was core or non core.
Ian P.
Kookaburra Precision Soaring Team
- Original Message - 
From: "Leigh Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring at Balak' ...



Terry Neumann wrote:


stared with the despair and disbelief at the now empty bottle.


Yes, it was a right-royal tragedy that will take therapy to overcome. I 
will be suggesting to the committee that nothing short of a Royal 
Commission will be satisfactory to sort out how this could possibly have 
happened.


At least Bert is off to Thailand for his therapy.

Hic'

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring at Balak' ...

[Leigh Bunting]

Terry Neumann wrote:


stared with the despair and disbelief at the now empty bottle.


Yes, it was a right-royal tragedy that will take therapy to overcome. I 
will be suggesting to the committee that nothing short of a Royal 
Commission will be satisfactory to sort out how this could possibly have 
happened.


At least Bert is off to Thailand for his therapy.

Hic'

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

You lucky lucky bugga, on the bright side, at least you were flying.JR
- Original Message -
From: "simon holding" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"

Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> Alice Springs - clear day - 7000' - and stuck in the back of the '28 all
> day.
> Fun is best.
> Simon
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> Sent: Sunday, 22 May 2005 10:06 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> Fun is the key to ecstasy, Regards JR
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
> 
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:25 PM
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > I would have said it died at 0.6 kt but as long as you had fun.
> > Regards
> > John
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> > Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:40 PM
> > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> >
> > I only said the day died, I did not say what caused the day to
> die..!JR
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
> > 
> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:10 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> >
> >
> > > As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time
> of
> > year.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> > > Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
> > > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> > >
> > > Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6
> knot
> > > climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
> > > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> > >
> > >
> > > > Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I
> > missed
> > > > out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after
> lunch
> the
> > > CU's
> > > > started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot
> climbs.
> > > >
> > > > Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during
> the
> > > > summer months missed out on a great day.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John parncutt
> > > > VMFG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > To check or change subscription details, visit:
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.14 - Release Date:
> 20/05/2005
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[simon holding]

Alice Springs - clear day - 7000' - and stuck in the back of the '28 all
day.
Fun is best.
Simon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
Sent: Sunday, 22 May 2005 10:06 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

Fun is the key to ecstasy, Regards JR
- Original Message -
From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"

Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> I would have said it died at 0.6 kt but as long as you had fun.
> Regards
> John
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:40 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> I only said the day died, I did not say what caused the day to
die..!JR
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
> 
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time
of
> year.
> >
> > Regards
> > John
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> > Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
> > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> >
> > Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6
knot
> > climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> >
> >
> > > Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I
> missed
> > > out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after
lunch
the
> > CU's
> > > started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot
climbs.
> > >
> > > Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during
the
> > > summer months missed out on a great day.
> > >
> > >
> > > John parncutt
> > > VMFG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> > >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.14 - Release Date:
20/05/2005
> >
> >
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>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

Fun is the key to ecstasy, Regards JR
- Original Message -
From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"

Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> I would have said it died at 0.6 kt but as long as you had fun.
> Regards
> John
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:40 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> I only said the day died, I did not say what caused the day to die..!JR
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
> 
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:10 PM
> Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time of
> year.
> >
> > Regards
> > John
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> > Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
> > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> >
> > Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6 knot
> > climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
> >
> >
> > > Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I
> missed
> > > out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after lunch
the
> > CU's
> > > started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot climbs.
> > >
> > > Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during the
> > > summer months missed out on a great day.
> > >
> > >
> > > John parncutt
> > > VMFG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > > To check or change subscription details, visit:
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> > >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > --
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> >
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Ashford]

I would have said it died at 0.6 kt but as long as you had fun.  
Regards
John


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:40 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

I only said the day died, I did not say what caused the day to die..!JR
- Original Message -
From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"

Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time of
year.
>
> Regards
> John
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6 knot
> climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
> - Original Message -
> From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I
missed
> > out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after lunch the
> CU's
> > started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot climbs.
> >
> > Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during the
> > summer months missed out on a great day.
> >
> >
> > John parncutt
> > VMFG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
>
>
> ___
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> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

The sun goes down, and out comes the B.B.Q, you have been here. might go
foxing tommorrow, regards JR
- Original Message -
From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"

Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time of
year.
>
> Regards
> John
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6 knot
> climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
> - Original Message -
> From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I
missed
> > out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after lunch the
> CU's
> > started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot climbs.
> >
> > Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during the
> > summer months missed out on a great day.
> >
> >
> > John parncutt
> > VMFG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
>
>
> ___
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> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.14 - Release Date: 20/05/2005
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

I only said the day died, I did not say what caused the day to die..!JR
- Original Message -
From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"

Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time of
year.
>
> Regards
> John
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
> Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
> Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6 knot
> climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
> - Original Message -
> From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
>
>
> > Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I
missed
> > out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after lunch the
> CU's
> > started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot climbs.
> >
> > Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during the
> > summer months missed out on a great day.
> >
> >
> > John parncutt
> > VMFG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Aus-soaring mailing list
> > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
> > To check or change subscription details, visit:
> > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> >
>
>
> ___
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> To check or change subscription details, visit:
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.14 - Release Date: 20/05/2005
>
>
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[Ashford]

As I recall 1500hrs in Milicent would have been sunset at this time of year.

Regards
John


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JR
Sent: Saturday, 21 May 2005 7:27 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6 knot
climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
- Original Message -
From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I missed
> out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after lunch the
CU's
> started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot climbs.
>
> Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during the
> summer months missed out on a great day.
>
>
> John parncutt
> VMFG
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring

[JR]

Not bad at Millicent, cloudbase was only 2400, but had fun anyway.6 knot
climbs, day died at around 1500 hours. regards JR
- Original Message -
From: "John Parncutt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 5:54 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring


> Great day at Bacchus Marsh today! starting with some early wave (I missed
> out but our early starting CFI had a good flight). Then after lunch the
CU's
> started popping with cloud base at 4500 and good 5 to 6 knot climbs.
>
> Of course those who read the lousy forecast or who only fly during the
> summer months missed out on a great day.
>
>
> John parncutt
> VMFG
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> To check or change subscription details, visit:
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RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING REPORT - A Stinker of a Day

[Kittel, Stephen W \(ETSA\)]

Title: RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING REPORT - A Stinker of a Day








> -Original Message-

> From: Mark Newton


> I was dumb enough to spend the day instructing:  circuits in 36 deg

> temperatures.  Wow.  Awe-inspiring.  Should do it more often.  Not.


Been there, done that. For a change (?) on Saturday I was in the tug. 22 launches at about 35 degrees all day. Not noticeably cooler at the top of the launch either. An interesting day nonetheless!

Phil Ritchie and Richard Skinner both pushed out to Burra (100km to the north) which took them a couple of hours each. As Leigh noted in his email, about 60kts headwind and neither of them needed to thermal on the way back. Both were limited to 8500' and Phil reported one 12 knot thermal (shortly after leaving an 8 knot one!).


> 

> We gave up winch ops at about 5:15pm when the winch driver reported

> that he wasn't prepared to perform any more launches because 

> he couldn't see the glider at the top of the launch 


At about the same time ASC also packed up and went inside. Once again, it wasn't so much the wind, but the muck in the air which had been there all day began to close in on the airfield. 

Regards

SWK




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RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING REPORT - A Stinker of a Day

[Anthony Smith]

I'll second Marks comments.  I was heading in the other direction, although
I doubt either he or I could of picked the others car on the opposite side
of the road.

I called it 'Brown Out', with significant stretches of the road with
visibility down to a few meters as an entire paddocks worth of dust, grass
(and perhaps rabbits and small sheep) engulfed the road (but no sign of
Dorothy or the wicked witch of the west).  You could only stop and wait or
crawl along following the left hand white line (praying that some insane
bastard didn't ram you from behind whilst doing some stupid speed).

Fortunately Justine and I ended up in a bit of a convoy crawling along
(except for the crazy truck driver at the rear who wanted to overtake
everyone) and playing follow the leader.  Still very scary seeing the car in
front disappear completely from view even though he is only a few car
lengths in front.

People the following morning reported at least one car had left the road at
speed and clobbered a tree. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Newton
Sent: Sunday, 3 April 2005 2:32 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING REPORT - A Stinker of a Day

The dust intensified through the evening:  Driving back to Adelaide
after dark was like driving through brown fog, with tumbleweeds jumping
chaotically across the road at 50km/h and the occasional drift of even
heavier dust that cut visibility to zero for a few seconds.  I
definitely wasn't driving in VMC.

- mark


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING REPORT - A Stinker of a Day

[Mark Newton]

Leigh Bunting wrote:
It sounded like conditions were somewhat different east of the Mt Lofty 
ranges. Anyone from Barossa/AUGC/Waikerie like to fill us in?
The wind was about the same, but it didn't start to get badly dusty
until late afternoon.
I was dumb enough to spend the day instructing:  circuits in 36 deg
temperatures.  Wow.  Awe-inspiring.  Should do it more often.  Not.
My longest flight was ten minutes when one of our recently solo pilots
in a checkflight found a weak thermal and stayed in it until we both
decided we'd drifted too far downwind.
Derek Spencer took an AEF in our Motorfalke for 40 minutes, exploring
some of the lift coming off the ranges (out of reach of a winch launch).
When he got back he decided to repeat the attempt with one of the club's
Boomerang syndicate owners, and by motoring over to Truro they managed
to catch the frontal lift from the cool change which they rode until they
were at 8000' over The Gums.  Bastards.
By that time visibility had become pretty crap, and they had to follow
the Sturt Highway to find the airfield.
We gave up winch ops at about 5:15pm when the winch driver reported
that he wasn't prepared to perform any more launches because he couldn't
see the glider at the top of the launch well enough to discern speed
signals due to the layer of dust.
The dust intensified through the evening:  Driving back to Adelaide
after dark was like driving through brown fog, with tumbleweeds jumping
chaotically across the road at 50km/h and the occasional drift of even
heavier dust that cut visibility to zero for a few seconds.  I
definitely wasn't driving in VMC.
   - mark

I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Patching]

Leigh,
Thats the trouble with people who buy these things and then try to put a 
dollar cost on the sport. If I even thought about calculating the costs on 
my fleet I would have to factor in the fun. I reckon I would end up in the 
positive. We all should.
Cheers all
Ian P.
Kookaburra Precision Soaring Team.

- Original Message - 
From: "Leigh Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California


Simon Hackett wrote:
the simple metric of taking the hull value and dividing by 1000 to get 
the effective hourly rate works quite well.
Hmmm. So I bought my Grunau Baby (airworthy, including trailer) in the 
early '70s for $600. What 's that work out to - -  60 cents per hour. :-D

Of course there has been some expenditure in the last 30 years, especially 
the last 5 years, but it still works out at <$15/hour and I still have a 
truck load of fun.

--
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia


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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Patching]

Careful Roger.
Ian P.
Kookaburra Precision Soaring Team
- Original Message - 
From: "Roger Druce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" 

Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 12:02 AM
Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California


By any measure Mike you underestimate the costs of owning your own glider.
Try to get to grips with the following:
1. "Red" Wright wrote in Soaring April 1964 "A letter to Editor" and it
is reprinted in Joe Lincolns book "On Quiet Wings" page 51 onwards about 
he
got caught up in the simple, inexpensive recreation of soaring to which he
had transitioned from being a 6000 hour power pilot.

After training costs, he got to fly solo and subsequently to progress he 
had
of course to buy his own glider which he duly did.  He lists the costs of
training and then the costs of obtaining his glider and operating it,
including all that 'must have' instrumentation. (Borgelt Instruments being
not yet around at the time to sever you from your hard earned dollars in
trade for the magical wonder instrument, there were nevertheless many 
other
instrument makers practicing that art on the hapless likes of "Red" 
Wright.)
After a while of solo operations comes the time where he has to get into
contest flying to progress in the sport.  He lists the costs of doing 
this.
Contests aren't cheap in the USA if you have to pay someone else to tow 
your
glider across continent while you remain working. (Our WA troops can 
relate
to that.) So the contest bills add up and the costs per hour keeps 
climbing.

At the competitive level of soaring you need to practice and fly the good
days from your home site, so you have to take time off mid week because of
course the best weather doesn't always coincide with the weekend.  As an
operator of a business this leads him to be out flying midweek when he
should be tending the customers, and so on one deal, being away flying, he
looses $66,000 of one customers business.
He works out his ultimate cost for 125 hours soaring as totalling
$96.164.84, ie $12.82 per minute.  At that time it cost aparently $12 per
minute to run a Boeing 707, but he doesn't want the conclusion drawn from
this that soaring is an expensive sport by comparison.
Red's article is an utterly delightful read (at least in my terms).
2. Closer to home.  If I had bought Westpac shares in 1993 instead of
my Janus CT I would now have around about 4 times capital appreciation on
the shares, ie $600,000 (excluding dividends) from my original $160,000.
Even after capital gains tax the increase would pay for almost unlimited
hours at Tocumwal rates.
Hmmm, and I used to think I was a rational person in owning my own glider.
Definitely I have been away with the fairies.
Roger Druce

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Thursday, 10 March 2005 10:01 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring inAustralia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California
At 03:05 PM 9/03/05 +1030, you wrote:
Definitely one of the more memorable experiences of my North American
trip.  Also the most expensive flying I've ever done:  that 2-hour
flight cost US$200, including glider hire, instructor hire and tow-plane
charter.
I think the Australian system really has it all over the US system when
it comes to the *cost* of flying;  god knows how much it costs for a
novice pilot to receive training over there when the instructor adds
$60 per hour to the price of the flight.

Given the same equipment and the a generally similar taxation regime the
"cost" of flying is about the same everywhere. It really is just a 
question
of "who pays?".

US$100ph is about A$130 currently. Take a look at Aero club charges for a
C172 with instructor some time. You had a cheap flight!
I know a bloke with a Discus 2. Say A$130,000. That's A$6500 at 5% which 
you
can get easily from a bank. Actually you can get 6% right now.
Insurance is A$5000. At 100 hours a year thats A$115 per hour right there
without tows. Say 30 at A$30 per tow for another A$900 and about A$1000 
for
GFA, airworthiness fees and maintenance.
A$13400 per annum so A$134 per hour for 100 hours a year.

Even if he pays top marginal tax rate on the A$6500 it still ends up at
A$100 per hour or more. We haven't even talked about depreciation.
As for the novice pilot, the way to do it in the US is to learn to fly in 
a
power plane(it's cheaper) and do a two day glider conversion later. Most 
of
the US glider pilots I know have a power licence for this reason.


Mike

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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Ed Marel]

Yes, but you would have bought OneTel and HIH instead...
On 11/03/2005, at 12:02 AM, Roger Druce wrote:
2.	Closer to home.  If I had bought Westpac shares in 1993 instead of
my Janus CT I would now have around about 4 times capital appreciation 
on
the shares, ie $600,000 (excluding dividends) from my original 
$160,000.
Even after capital gains tax the increase would pay for almost 
unlimited
hours at Tocumwal rates.

Hmmm, and I used to think I was a rational person in owning my own 
glider.
Definitely I have been away with the fairies.

Roger Druce

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RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Mike Borgelt]

At 12:02 AM 11/03/05 +1100, you wrote:
>By any measure Mike you underestimate the costs of owning your own glider.

Having owned at least one at a time since 1972 I know you are right!

My post was a response to the "most expensive flying" where for US$200 Mark
Newton had a unique, exciting and unexpected adventure.

If anyone thinks that club flying is much ceaper just remember that there
are fewer than 3 glider pilots per glider in Oz.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
  Int'l + 61 429 355784
email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com

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RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Roger Druce]

By any measure Mike you underestimate the costs of owning your own glider.
Try to get to grips with the following:

1.  "Red" Wright wrote in Soaring April 1964 "A letter to Editor" and it
is reprinted in Joe Lincolns book "On Quiet Wings" page 51 onwards about he
got caught up in the simple, inexpensive recreation of soaring to which he
had transitioned from being a 6000 hour power pilot.

After training costs, he got to fly solo and subsequently to progress he had
of course to buy his own glider which he duly did.  He lists the costs of
training and then the costs of obtaining his glider and operating it,
including all that 'must have' instrumentation. (Borgelt Instruments being
not yet around at the time to sever you from your hard earned dollars in
trade for the magical wonder instrument, there were nevertheless many other
instrument makers practicing that art on the hapless likes of "Red" Wright.)
After a while of solo operations comes the time where he has to get into
contest flying to progress in the sport.  He lists the costs of doing this.
Contests aren't cheap in the USA if you have to pay someone else to tow your
glider across continent while you remain working. (Our WA troops can relate
to that.) So the contest bills add up and the costs per hour keeps climbing.

At the competitive level of soaring you need to practice and fly the good
days from your home site, so you have to take time off mid week because of
course the best weather doesn't always coincide with the weekend.  As an
operator of a business this leads him to be out flying midweek when he
should be tending the customers, and so on one deal, being away flying, he
looses $66,000 of one customers business.

He works out his ultimate cost for 125 hours soaring as totalling
$96.164.84, ie $12.82 per minute.  At that time it cost aparently $12 per
minute to run a Boeing 707, but he doesn't want the conclusion drawn from
this that soaring is an expensive sport by comparison.

Red's article is an utterly delightful read (at least in my terms).

2.  Closer to home.  If I had bought Westpac shares in 1993 instead of
my Janus CT I would now have around about 4 times capital appreciation on
the shares, ie $600,000 (excluding dividends) from my original $160,000.
Even after capital gains tax the increase would pay for almost unlimited
hours at Tocumwal rates.

Hmmm, and I used to think I was a rational person in owning my own glider.
Definitely I have been away with the fairies.

Roger Druce




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Thursday, 10 March 2005 10:01 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring inAustralia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

At 03:05 PM 9/03/05 +1030, you wrote:
>
>Definitely one of the more memorable experiences of my North American 
>trip.  Also the most expensive flying I've ever done:  that 2-hour 
>flight cost US$200, including glider hire, instructor hire and tow-plane
charter.
>I think the Australian system really has it all over the US system when 
>it comes to the *cost* of flying;  god knows how much it costs for a 
>novice pilot to receive training over there when the instructor adds 
>$60 per hour to the price of the flight.


Given the same equipment and the a generally similar taxation regime the
"cost" of flying is about the same everywhere. It really is just a question
of "who pays?".

US$100ph is about A$130 currently. Take a look at Aero club charges for a
C172 with instructor some time. You had a cheap flight!

I know a bloke with a Discus 2. Say A$130,000. That's A$6500 at 5% which you
can get easily from a bank. Actually you can get 6% right now.
Insurance is A$5000. At 100 hours a year thats A$115 per hour right there
without tows. Say 30 at A$30 per tow for another A$900 and about A$1000 for
GFA, airworthiness fees and maintenance.
A$13400 per annum so A$134 per hour for 100 hours a year.

Even if he pays top marginal tax rate on the A$6500 it still ends up at
A$100 per hour or more. We haven't even talked about depreciation.


As for the novice pilot, the way to do it in the US is to learn to fly in a
power plane(it's cheaper) and do a two day glider conversion later. Most of
the US glider pilots I know have a power licence for this reason.



Mike




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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Leigh Bunting]

Simon Hackett wrote:
the simple metric of taking the hull value and dividing by 1000 to get 
the effective hourly rate works quite well.
Hmmm. So I bought my Grunau Baby (airworthy, including trailer) in the 
early '70s for $600. What 's that work out to - -  60 cents per hour. :-D

Of course there has been some expenditure in the last 30 years, 
especially the last 5 years, but it still works out at <$15/hour and I 
still have a truck load of fun.

--
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia


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RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Allan Armistead]

Simon says (sorry, couln't resist...)

..."I just quietly put the spreadsheet away and realised that those
calculations were just not going to stop me from indulging in my own
aviation decisions, because I'd already made the decision to own the
thing, whatever the numbers said (and in gliding, clearly, I'm not alone
in that attitude - or a lot of us wouldn't be bothering).

Cheers,
Simon"


Exactly right Simon. If we ran our lives on economic analysis, we'd all be
sitting around bored to pieces but financially well off.

If you want to do it, and you can afford to do it (and it's legal and does
no harm to anyone...), then go enjoy. That's all the justification you need.

Allan Armistead
ph (02) 6249 6470, fax (02) 6249 6555, mobile 0413 013 911
PO Box 908, Dickson ACT 2602, Australia

"When once you have tasted flight, you will always walk with your eyes
turned skyward, for there you have been and there you always will be."
Leonardo da Vinci, 1452-1519
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Simon Hackett]

Mike Borgelt wrote:
I know a bloke with a Discus 2. Say A$130,000. That's [...]
I tried the same calculations with my Stemme S10-VT once. I already had 
such a spreadsheet set up which had been used for my old SF-25C Motorfalke.

So I plugged in the hull value of my S10-VT.
At that point the spreadsheet columns turned into those '''s which 
mean you need to widen the columns because the numbers are too big to fit :)

I just quietly put the spreadsheet away and realised that those 
calculations were just not going to stop me from indulging in my own 
aviation decisions, because I'd already made the decision to own the 
thing, whatever the numbers said (and in gliding, clearly, I'm not alone 
in that attitude - or a lot of us wouldn't be bothering).

On the general notion of figuring out a notional hiring rate for gliders 
at typical 'glider' utilisations (circa 100 hrs/year for a private one), 
I have found that the simple metric of taking the hull value and 
dividing by 1000 to get the effective hourly rate works quite well. 
Taking your Discus example (because my Stemme example would just 
frighten the horses), that means $130,000 hull value -> $130 per hour - 
which is consistent with your calculations.

Obviously those numbers improve with higher utilisations, but the more 
expensive the glider, the more likely its going to peak around 100-150 
per year because its probably a private aircraft, not a club one.

(I have flown about 140 hours in my Stemme in the last 12 months).
Cheers,
Simon
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Mike Borgelt]

At 03:05 PM 9/03/05 +1030, you wrote:
>
>Definitely one of the more memorable experiences of my North American
>trip.  Also the most expensive flying I've ever done:  that 2-hour flight
>cost US$200, including glider hire, instructor hire and tow-plane charter.
>I think the Australian system really has it all over the US system when
>it comes to the *cost* of flying;  god knows how much it costs for a
>novice pilot to receive training over there when the instructor adds
>$60 per hour to the price of the flight.


Given the same equipment and the a generally similar taxation regime the
"cost" of flying is about the same everywhere. It really is just a question
of "who pays?".

US$100ph is about A$130 currently. Take a look at Aero club charges for a
C172 with instructor some time. You had a cheap flight!

I know a bloke with a Discus 2. Say A$130,000. That's A$6500 at 5% which
you can get easily from a bank. Actually you can get 6% right now.
Insurance is A$5000. At 100 hours a year thats A$115 per hour right there
without tows. Say 30 at A$30 per tow for another A$900 and about A$1000 for
GFA, airworthiness fees and maintenance.
A$13400 per annum so A$134 per hour for 100 hours a year.

Even if he pays top marginal tax rate on the A$6500 it still ends up at
A$100 per hour or more. We haven't even talked about depreciation.


As for the novice pilot, the way to do it in the US is to learn to fly in a
power plane(it's cheaper) and do a two day glider conversion later. Most of
the US glider pilots I know have a power licence for this reason.



Mike


Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
  Int'l + 61 429 355784
email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
website: www.borgeltinstruments.com

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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Peter Stephenson]

Mark Newton wrote on his web-site:
In the US, gliders are routinely left outside tied-down all year 'round. Most of the fleet at the 
Great Western Soaring School are either tied down or kept in their trailers. There were only two 
small hangars that I could see on the site.

Sacrilege! :-)
PeterS
- Original Message - 
From: "Boyd Munro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California


Mark, thank you for sharing this wonderful story with us.
I rather liked the detailed explanation of "one gets what one pays for", and
the best bit was the innovative method of de-icing.
Boyd Munro
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."

Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:35 AM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

Internode sent me to the US to set up our international gateway networks
last month.  I took a week and a half of leave at the end of it (why
waste it when someone else paid the airfares? :-) and took the opportunity
to do a bit of touring around the Western USA and British Columbia in
Canada.
My flight back to Australia was scheduled to leave LAX at 11:15pm on
Saturday, and I didn't really want to spend the last day of my trip
touring around a horrible stinking hole in the ground like Los Angeles.
So I visited the Great Plains Soaring School at Crystalaire Airport
about 80 miles North of LA, introduced myself to instructor Dale Masters
and went for a fly.
The weather was crap:  a grey cloud blanket at 3000' AGL and pretty
cold temperatures left little hope for thermals, and Dale and I were
both expecting a circuit (but I wanted to do it anyway:  I wasn't
going to visit North America without logging at least ONE flight in
a foreign country).
So off we went, in high-tow behind an old Pawnee with a retractable
tow-rope, aerotowing towards the mountains.
We towed towards a bright-looking bit of cloud, and on the way it
got a bit rough... and rougher... and rougher... then silky smooth.
Hey!  We found wave!
So my circuit turned into 1h 55m in ridge and wave lift to 9800'
soaring among snow-covered peaks in a DG-500 while the cloud slowly
cleared into 3 octas of Cu and 1 octa of Lennies (!), with some
aerobatics to come back down to "pattern altitude" at the end of
the flight.
http://slash.dotat.org/~newton/gallery/us-gliding/
Dale said he's been wave flying in these mountains for years, but
he'd never found this particular wave system before.  So it was a
novel flight for both of us.
Definitely one of the more memorable experiences of my North American
trip.  Also the most expensive flying I've ever done:  that 2-hour flight
cost US$200, including glider hire, instructor hire and tow-plane charter.
I think the Australian system really has it all over the US system when
it comes to the *cost* of flying;  god knows how much it costs for a
novice pilot to receive training over there when the instructor adds
$60 per hour to the price of the flight.
Having said that, Crystalaire is a commercial op, not a club, and that
definitely affects the cost.  I ended up going there because (a) it's
the closest gliding operation to LA, with all the others at least 2.5
hours away, and (b) the non-commercial ops that I phoned during the
week weren't sure if they'd be open due to the weather (the clubs
at Tehachapi and California City had cancelled their weekend meetings
due to the wintery weather forecast).  I really didn't want to spend
2.5 hours on my last day in the US driving to an airfield only to find
that it was closed and I'd have to spend 2.5 hours driving back again.
In retrospect, considering the quality of the flight I had at Crystalaire,
that was an excellent decision!
If you're in the LA area, Crystalaire is about 1.5 hours North of LAX
Airport.  Take the northbound I-405 then use the I-5 to the northbound
CA-14 to Palmdale.  29 miles up that road is an off-ramp to the Pearblossom
Highway through Littlerock.  Crystalaire is on 165th St East.  Tell
Dale I sent you :-)
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=from%3A%20lax%20to%3A%2032810%20165th%20St%20E%2C%20Llano%2C%20CA%2093544&ll=34.707031%2C-118.128684&spn=1.109375%2C1.500993&hl=en
Finally:  I can't close off without passing on thanks to Reg Moore and
Bob Hall, who provided advice before I left on the path of least resistance
for getting my flying credentials recognized in the US while I was away.
As it happened I only had enough time to go flying once, so it wasn't
worth the pain of going down the path towards getting a US license, but
the fact that there were people there who could answer questions about
that kind of thing was really good.  The GFA has some great resources
if you take the

Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California

[Boyd Munro]

Mark, thank you for sharing this wonderful story with us.

I rather liked the detailed explanation of "one gets what one pays for", and 
the best bit was the innovative method of de-icing.

Boyd Munro

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 

Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:35 AM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING in California


Internode sent me to the US to set up our international gateway networks
last month.  I took a week and a half of leave at the end of it (why
waste it when someone else paid the airfares? :-) and took the opportunity
to do a bit of touring around the Western USA and British Columbia in
Canada.

My flight back to Australia was scheduled to leave LAX at 11:15pm on
Saturday, and I didn't really want to spend the last day of my trip
touring around a horrible stinking hole in the ground like Los Angeles.
So I visited the Great Plains Soaring School at Crystalaire Airport
about 80 miles North of LA, introduced myself to instructor Dale Masters
and went for a fly.

The weather was crap:  a grey cloud blanket at 3000' AGL and pretty
cold temperatures left little hope for thermals, and Dale and I were
both expecting a circuit (but I wanted to do it anyway:  I wasn't
going to visit North America without logging at least ONE flight in
a foreign country).

So off we went, in high-tow behind an old Pawnee with a retractable
tow-rope, aerotowing towards the mountains.

We towed towards a bright-looking bit of cloud, and on the way it
got a bit rough... and rougher... and rougher... then silky smooth.
Hey!  We found wave!

So my circuit turned into 1h 55m in ridge and wave lift to 9800'
soaring among snow-covered peaks in a DG-500 while the cloud slowly
cleared into 3 octas of Cu and 1 octa of Lennies (!), with some
aerobatics to come back down to "pattern altitude" at the end of
the flight.

http://slash.dotat.org/~newton/gallery/us-gliding/

Dale said he's been wave flying in these mountains for years, but
he'd never found this particular wave system before.  So it was a
novel flight for both of us.

Definitely one of the more memorable experiences of my North American
trip.  Also the most expensive flying I've ever done:  that 2-hour flight
cost US$200, including glider hire, instructor hire and tow-plane charter.
I think the Australian system really has it all over the US system when
it comes to the *cost* of flying;  god knows how much it costs for a
novice pilot to receive training over there when the instructor adds
$60 per hour to the price of the flight.

Having said that, Crystalaire is a commercial op, not a club, and that
definitely affects the cost.  I ended up going there because (a) it's
the closest gliding operation to LA, with all the others at least 2.5
hours away, and (b) the non-commercial ops that I phoned during the
week weren't sure if they'd be open due to the weather (the clubs
at Tehachapi and California City had cancelled their weekend meetings
due to the wintery weather forecast).  I really didn't want to spend
2.5 hours on my last day in the US driving to an airfield only to find
that it was closed and I'd have to spend 2.5 hours driving back again.
In retrospect, considering the quality of the flight I had at Crystalaire,
that was an excellent decision!

If you're in the LA area, Crystalaire is about 1.5 hours North of LAX
Airport.  Take the northbound I-405 then use the I-5 to the northbound
CA-14 to Palmdale.  29 miles up that road is an off-ramp to the Pearblossom
Highway through Littlerock.  Crystalaire is on 165th St East.  Tell
Dale I sent you :-)
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=from%3A%20lax%20to%3A%2032810%20165th%20St%20E%2C%20Llano%2C%20CA%2093544&ll=34.707031%2C-118.128684&spn=1.109375%2C1.500993&hl=en

Finally:  I can't close off without passing on thanks to Reg Moore and
Bob Hall, who provided advice before I left on the path of least resistance
for getting my flying credentials recognized in the US while I was away.
As it happened I only had enough time to go flying once, so it wasn't
worth the pain of going down the path towards getting a US license, but
the fact that there were people there who could answer questions about
that kind of thing was really good.  The GFA has some great resources
if you take the trouble to ask around.

   - mark


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Quinn]

Saturday was giving 6 knots to 8,500 at Port Augusta.  Sunday was a slight improvement 
to somewhere above 9,000 (I was flying the concrete swan and by the time we thermalled 
9000' I decided it was time to go hunting).

Afraid I just used it for instructional purposes out around Quorn/Wilmington and to 
attempt to take photos straight down the Northern Power station stack!

Saturday the thermals worked most of the day.  Sunday they were wiped out by the sea 
breeze soon after 1600.

Redmond

**
- Original Message - 
From: "Pete Siddall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, 17 October 2004 8:20
Subject: [Aus-soaring] BORING


> Sunday started at Renmark with two gliders waiting to be rigged, but we
> didn't have enough people for that until lunchtime. Amid the usual calls
> of "It's not engaged. Move it IN", and "Hurry up, it's heavy" I started
> hearing things like "Wow, look at that sky".
> 
> Some rapid glider preparation happened, and the first launch was at
> 2:20pm, Jim doing the evaluation flight on the Blanik.
> 
> My launch was next, in the Hornet. I released into a changeable 3-4 knot
> thermal and clambered up, after a while spotting the Blanik above me.
> That can't be allowed to happen, but I couldn't get up to him. By
> persisting, some time after Jim had gone away I made it almost to 12,000
> feet. Right, done that, nobody else wants the glider, so where now?
> 
> I cruised off to the south-west, following clouds around a blue hole, and
> after a while I was at Wunkar topping up to 11,000. That was the last
> worthwhile climb I found, but it was enough to glide to Veitch and back
> to Renmark in still air, having done 120+ km.
> 
> In a bit less time, David Campain had got to 10,000, and done Taplan -
> Lake Victoria - Renmark, 182 km, while evaluating the Mosquito. His best
> climb was an average 8.3 knots. I didn't find anything that good.
> 
> It was a very pleasant afternoon. Anyone who had made a whole day of it
> could have done some reasonable distance.
> 
> Any other stories?
> 
> -- 
> ___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[rolf a. buelter]

Well Greg, you chose the wrong day. On Sunday I finished off the Form 2 on 
the 13, had her rigged and ready to do the evaluation flight at 14:30 and 
did a very enjoyable hour of evaluating the old girl in climbs to 4 kts and 
the compulsory fun in between. Rgds - Rolf


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia."<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia."<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:46:04 +1000

> >I had a nice 28 minute flight in the Ventus GFN at Adelaide Soaring 
Club
> >(ASC) at Gawler yesterday.
> Meanwhile on the Darling Downs the entire fleet and most of the private
> gliders were also airborne on Sunday.
>
> 9000 ft QNH and 8 - 10 kts was there for the taking with only the 
occasional minor annoyance of having to skirt or fly through a bit of rain.

Grumble, all I got on Saturday at Bacchus Marsh was 26 minutes in the 
club's
Jantar Standard 2. It just didn't want to stay in the air for some reason.

Greg O'Sullivan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Christopher Mc Donnell]

You are doing the easy part Michael.
Hoping they come home alive is harder.
With your job, yadda yadda, I know.

Chris McDonnell

- Original Message - 
From: "Leigh Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, 20 September 2004 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING


> Michael Texler wrote:
>
> >I'm sure those on the aus-soaring list who are parents can identify with
the
> >above situation.
> >
> >
> All too true, I'm afraid.
>
> -- 
> Leigh Bunting
> Colonel Light Gardens
> South Australia
> 
>
>
>
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RE: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[David Conway]

I had a great weekend at AUGC's Lochiel airfield, even though the weather
was very pleasant but with little convection happening

Anyone not familiar with our club should have a look at www.augc.on.net

Being a student club we have lots of keen young people which makes it a fun
club to be in;

Did some instructing and converted two of our 20 year old pilots to the Pik
and another to the Standard Libelle, it's great to see these people having
so much fun gliding.

All they spoke about in the car on the way home was their next weekends
flying!

Cheers

David



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 20 September 2004 11:16 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING 


> >I had a nice 28 minute flight in the Ventus GFN at Adelaide Soaring 
> >Club
> >(ASC) at Gawler yesterday.
> Meanwhile on the Darling Downs the entire fleet and most of the 
> private gliders were also airborne on Sunday.
> 
> 9000 ft QNH and 8 - 10 kts was there for the taking with only the
occasional minor annoyance of having to skirt or fly through a bit of rain.

Grumble, all I got on Saturday at Bacchus Marsh was 26 minutes in the club's
Jantar Standard 2. It just didn't want to stay in the air for some reason.

Greg O'Sullivan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Leigh Bunting]

Michael Texler wrote:
I'm sure those on the aus-soaring list who are parents can identify with the
above situation.
 

All too true, I'm afraid.
--
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia


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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[gjo]

> >I had a nice 28 minute flight in the Ventus GFN at Adelaide Soaring Club
> >(ASC) at Gawler yesterday.
> Meanwhile on the Darling Downs the entire fleet and most of the private
> gliders were also airborne on Sunday.
> 
> 9000 ft QNH and 8 - 10 kts was there for the taking with only the occasional minor 
> annoyance of having to skirt or fly through a bit of rain.

Grumble, all I got on Saturday at Bacchus Marsh was 26 minutes in the club's
Jantar Standard 2. It just didn't want to stay in the air for some reason.

Greg O'Sullivan
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BORING

[Brian Wade]

>I had a nice 28 minute flight in the Ventus GFN at 
Adelaide Soaring Club(ASC) at Gawler yesterday.

Meanwhile on the Darling Downs the entire fleet and most of the 
private gliders were also airborne on Sunday.
9000 ft QNH and 8 - 10 kts was there for the taking with 
only the occasional minor annoyance of having to skirt or fly through a bit 
of rain.
Alice and I cruised out to Chinchilla and then back for some 
local soaring before landing early so that we could de-rig her in 
preparation for Robert taking her to Kingaroy next week.  
Brian
--Brian Wade 
Personal Computer ConceptsControl SPAM with MailWasher Pro 
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PO Box 114 INDOOROOPILLY QLD 4068Ph: 07 3371 2944 Fax: 07 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring report from Ireland

[Leigh Bunting]

Ron Fox wrote:
Hullo all from Dublin.
 

This email should be printed, framed and put in every Australian gliding 
club house as a reminder how good we have it here.

--
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Mike Borgelt]

At 03:00 PM 23/07/04 +1000, you wrote:
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/html;
>charset="iso-8859-
>
>1"; is needed.
>queenslanders aren't really parochial - this IS the
>best
>place to live.
>rob izatt

Yeah, I don't want to live in Australia again.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
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fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Boonahgliding]

the wave is at boonah every year. up till now only the dg500m has really had
a go and has oxy. it also appears we get wave from several different weather
systems. more investigation and mapping  is needed.queenslanders
aren't really parochial - this IS the best place to live.rob izatt

- Original Message From:
"Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: RE: [Aus-soaring]
Boring ReportDate: 22/07/04 23:48>From: "RF Developments Pty Ltd"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> >From Boonah, this month
we had no fewer than 3 wave flights, one to>16,000ft>and we
could have gone higher as it was still 4 knots climb, views out
to>Byron bay lighthouse and the gold coast high-rises - outside OAT
on -5 ,>inside a toasty 5 degrees.Yes, but from Bunyan,
21000ft was just one week in the season, whereas foryou 16000 is the
most memorable in months. ...and he did say that he couldsee the Tasman
Sea and the snowfields - both of them are rather moreattractive sights
to most than Gold Coast high rises.>>The Cunningham wave
system allows us to thermal from 1300AGL from a ridge>at>the
side of the airstrip up to FL180 without approvals, the wave seems
to>be>best at 220 to 270 degrees. My last aerotow into the
thermal rotor was 8>units at 1500ft AGL release with no agro rotor
turbulance, a few years ago>a>Boonah pilot got to
25,000ft.Great, but at Bunyan they get 25000 ft several times just
about everyseason, not just once in 5 years.>>The
interesting thing about this wave system is that it may be possible
to>fly south, joining up with other divide systems and fly from here
to Vic>boarder, would require uninhibited approvals and extended high
altitude>time, the Kiwi's do it all the time but we don't get the
practice of X/C>wave flights over distance.That's because you
stay in Queensland instead of going to Bunyan to practiceeach
winter!>Any of you Mexicans that come up here for a winter break
should bring>glider>in tow and between June and August is the
wave season here, leave it at>Boonah and when its on get a check
flight and experience the friendly>Queensland wave!What's
UNfriendly about Bunyan's wave?I'm sure Queensland is fine Nigel but
it simply isn't the best forEVERYthing! I've never tried to talk anyone
into living in my state butevery Queenslander I meet wants me to shift
to his - as though livingelsewhere is a subtle vote of no confidence in
Queensland. There'ssomething unnerving about this high a level of
insecurity in so many people.:)We all accept Queenslanders'
paranoia about NSW and Victoria but forheaven's sake, let the poor
little ACT have something! Their wave IS betterthan yours. By
far!Remember the number plate slogan: ACT - Better than you
think!Graeme Cant>Nigel
Andrews>>>>>-----Original
Message->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Leigh>Bunting>Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:28
PM>To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
Australia.>Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Report>>>skf1 wrote:>> >Two weeks ago
I had a wonderful flight of 3 hours up to 21,000ft, I> >could see
the Tasman Sea and the NSW snow fields at the same time, and>
>where else could I do that?> >> >>Orright,
orright!! :-D>>Leigh Bunting>Colonel Light
Gardens>South Australia>>>>___>Aus-soaring
mailing
list>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring>>>>___>Aus-soaring
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Graeme Cant]

From: "RF Developments Pty Ltd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>From Boonah, this month we had no fewer than 3 wave flights, one to 
16,000ft
and we could have gone higher as it was still 4 knots climb, views out to
Byron bay lighthouse and the gold coast high-rises - outside OAT on -5 ,
inside a toasty 5 degrees.
Yes, but from Bunyan, 21000ft was just one week in the season, whereas for 
you 16000 is the most memorable in months.  ...and he did say that he could 
see the Tasman Sea and the snowfields - both of them are rather more 
attractive sights to most than Gold Coast high rises.
The Cunningham wave system allows us to thermal from 1300AGL from a ridge 
at
the side of the airstrip up to FL180 without approvals, the wave seems to 
be
best at 220 to 270 degrees. My last aerotow into the thermal rotor was 8
units at 1500ft AGL release with no agro rotor turbulance, a few years ago 
a
Boonah pilot got to 25,000ft.
Great, but at Bunyan they get 25000 ft several times just about every 
season, not just once in 5 years.

The interesting thing about this wave system is that it may be possible to
fly south, joining up with other divide systems and fly from here to Vic
boarder, would require uninhibited approvals and extended high altitude
time, the Kiwi's do it all the time but we don't get the practice of X/C
wave flights over distance.
That's because you stay in Queensland instead of going to Bunyan to practice 
each winter!

Any of you Mexicans that come up here for a winter break should bring 
glider
in tow and between June and August is the wave season here, leave it at
Boonah and when its on get a check flight and experience the friendly
Queensland wave!
What's UNfriendly about Bunyan's wave?
I'm sure Queensland is fine Nigel but it simply isn't the best for 
EVERYthing!  I've never tried to talk anyone into living in my state but 
every Queenslander I meet wants me to shift to his - as though living 
elsewhere is a subtle vote of no confidence in Queensland.  There's 
something unnerving about this high a level of insecurity in so many people. 
  :)

We all accept Queenslanders' paranoia about NSW and Victoria but for 
heaven's sake, let the poor little ACT have something!  Their wave IS better 
than yours.  By far!

Remember the number plate slogan: ACT - Better than you think!
Graeme Cant
Nigel Andrews

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leigh
Bunting
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:28 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report
skf1 wrote:
>Two weeks ago I had a wonderful flight of 3 hours up to 21,000ft, I
>could see the Tasman Sea and the NSW snow fields at the same time, and
>where else could I do that?
>
>
Orright, orright!! :-D
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[RF Developments Pty Ltd]

where else could I do that?


>From Boonah, this month we had no fewer than 3 wave flights, one to 16,000ft
and we could have gone higher as it was still 4 knots climb, views out to
Byron bay lighthouse and the gold coast high-rises - outside OAT on -5 ,
inside a toasty 5 degrees.

The Cunningham wave system allows us to thermal from 1300AGL from a ridge at
the side of the airstrip up to FL180 without approvals, the wave seems to be
best at 220 to 270 degrees. My last aerotow into the thermal rotor was 8
units at 1500ft AGL release with no agro rotor turbulance, a few years ago a
Boonah pilot got to 25,000ft.

The interesting thing about this wave system is that it may be possible to
fly south, joining up with other divide systems and fly from here to Vic
boarder, would require uninhibited approvals and extended high altitude
time, the Kiwi's do it all the time but we don't get the practice of X/C
wave flights over distance.

Any of you Mexicans that come up here for a winter break should bring glider
in tow and between June and August is the wave season here, leave it at
Boonah and when its on get a check flight and experience the friendly
Queensland wave!

Cheers
  

Nigel Andrews




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leigh
Bunting
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:28 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report


skf1 wrote:

>Two weeks ago I had a wonderful flight of 3 hours up to 21,000ft, I 
>could see the Tasman Sea and the NSW snow fields at the same time, and 
>where else could I do that?
>  
>
Orright, orright!! :-D

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Leigh Bunting]

skf1 wrote:
Two weeks ago I had a wonderful flight of 3 hours up to 21,000ft, I could
see the Tasman Sea and the NSW snow fields at the same time, and where else
could I do that? 
 

Orright, orright!! :-D
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Mike Borgelt]

At 02:36 PM 20/07/04 +1000, you wrote:
>Leigh,
>  Contrary to Australian folk lore, Canberra weather is only really cold
>by Australian standards for about 8 to 10 weeks of the year, the remainder
>of the time, it is great - not to hot, cold or humid, and none of those
>destructive storms we see in what has become the retirement meka for many
>Australians, SE Qld. 

I'll take the odd thunderstorm over bushfires that destroy suburbs.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
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  Int'l + 61 429 355784
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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[skf1]

Leigh,
  Contrary to Australian folk lore, Canberra weather is only really cold
by Australian standards for about 8 to 10 weeks of the year, the remainder
of the time, it is great - not to hot, cold or humid, and none of those
destructive storms we see in what has become the retirement meka for many
Australians, SE Qld. 

The 8 to 10 weeks when it can be cold is also the time we get our wave. 

Two weeks ago I had a wonderful flight of 3 hours up to 21,000ft, I could
see the Tasman Sea and the NSW snow fields at the same time, and where else
could I do that? 

SDF  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leigh
Bunting
Sent: Monday, 19 July 2004 7:51 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

skf1 wrote:

>Hey if you think 10c was cold - check out this Temp trace from Cooma,
>approx 20km from Bunyan - home of the Canberra Gliding Club.
>
>Standby for the Bunyan Snow Report. 
>  
>
Hey Stuart,

That's Canberra for you. And exactly why my daughter can hardly wait to 
finish her PhD and get outa there.

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Leigh Bunting]

Patching wrote:
Cold isn't a word we use sparingly at BCS over the winter.
Tell me about it. I froze my butt off on Jan 2nd, 1997(?) and 3rd and 
4th  at the Ararat regatta. That's 'normal' for Victoria, isn't it?

Great day, good fun, good comraderie and free.
Excellent. Hope some of it rubbed off on to the great unwashed populace.
--
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Leigh Bunting]

Christopher Mc Donnell wrote:
Would you please advise whether you replaced with a carbon fibre tailskid on
the Grunau as you did before?
Yep. Another carbon-fibre model. This time lighter again with a TIVAR 
rubbing plate, courtesy of the AUGC. The carbon-fibre tape came from 
that ultra-freezer - Canberra - because no one was stocking it locally.

This piece of indestructable high tech failing at the vintage regatta and
stealing several hours flying from you.
True. Serves me right for not having a spare. That has now been fixed.
You are supposed to use the original equipment which is a cut leaf spring
from 1936 BMW Sports or a Mercedes SSK.
Frankly, I would rather have the skid break than the rear end of the fuse. Easier to 
make up a skid than repair the wood bits. In addition, all-up-weights appeared to have 
been treated more like reccommendations in the old days. These days, you need the 
lightest airframe possible so that more than a jockey can legally fly the old birds. 
As you will find out with the Kingy(s), I'm sure.
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Leigh Bunting]

skf1 wrote:
Hey if you think 10c was cold - check out this Temp trace from Cooma,
approx 20km from Bunyan - home of the Canberra Gliding Club.
Standby for the Bunyan Snow Report. 
 

Hey Stuart,
That's Canberra for you. And exactly why my daughter can hardly wait to 
finish her PhD and get outa there.

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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Re: [Aus-soaring] boring report

[Leigh Bunting]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Cold! Cold?!
It was freezing in N.Q. too temp didn't get over 26 and we couldn't get above 7,300' 

That really sucks!!
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia

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Re: [Aus-soaring] boring report

[Pete Siddall]

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:45:30 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Cold! Cold?!
> It was freezing in N.Q. too temp didn't get over 26 and we couldn't get
> above 7,300' no matter how hard we tried, must be clobal warming or
> something stuffing up the weather. Somebody's gotta do something

Move to NQ perhaps?

-- 
Renmark, Waikerie and similar latitudes
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Re: [Aus-soaring] boring report

[VHGNJ]

Cold! Cold?!
It was freezing in N.Q. too temp didn't get over 26 and we couldn't get above 7,300' 
no matter how hard we tried, must be clobal warming or something stuffing up the 
weather. Somebody's gotta do something
Grant Harper
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Patching]

Cold isn't a word we use sparingly at BCS over the winter. Most use words
like Bloody Freezing to cover the weather.
BUT today we did have fun. As part of the Geelongs GC 75th Anniversary we
were involved in a display at Belmont Common in Geelong. The display
consisted of ground exhibits of the GGC DG-300, GDH and the Aust. Gliding
Museums Zogling Primary.
>From BCS by aerotow came the S/W Kookaburra GNZ with Caleb White and Wayne
Mackleybehind the Super Cub and the Duo Discus VRD behind the Pawnee. Team
Golden Eagle rigged at Grovedale, a bit closer to the Common and met Geoff
Mc Donalds Auster from BCS.
Everything actually worked and the formation joined up for a circuit of the
Common. It looked fantastic and the crowd was suitably impressed. The crowd
was good as the local paper ran a story the day before and people turned up
for a look.
Great day, good fun, good comraderie and free.
Look for a story next VT.
Cheers to the lot of you.
Keep warm
Ian P.
- Original Message -
From: " Christopher Mc Donnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report


> Leigh,
> Would you please advise whether you replaced with a carbon fibre tailskid
on
> the Grunau as you did before?
> This piece of indestructable high tech failing at the vintage regatta and
> stealing several hours flying from you.
> You are supposed to use the original equipment which is a cut leaf spring
> from 1936 BMW Sports or a Mercedes SSK.
> If you used the original part I am sure you will not experience the tissue
> rejection again.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Leigh Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Soaring List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, 18 July 2004 4:19 PM
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report
>
>
> For those in the northern parts, it is bloody freezing in the southern
> end of the country.
>
> At Whitwarta on Saturday, it might have been barely 10°C. The wind chill
> factor reduced that by several more.
>
> It was soarable but difficult. Catherine took the club Hornet on an 75K
> XC but missed out getting back by 5K because of the weather cycles.
> Where it was sunny, or under an active passing Cu, there was a tight
> thermal. But there was plenty of shadow and overdevelopement.
>
> I had mounted a new tailskid on my Grunau, so took it for a testfly. The
> temperature of the 40kt slipstream, if I poked my face passed the
> windshield, would try to peel the skin off your face. Under Cu, in a
> weak thermal and light rain, it was pretty cool in the open cockpit
> anyway. With a theoretical L/D of 17, drifting downwind very far was not
> an option.
>
> Later on, I introduced a couple of our young pilots to some high-G turns
> in the K21. Big deal - you say. These G's had a minus sign in front of
> them. Heidi loved it. Andrew reserved his judgement. At least it pushed
> some blood upwards and made us feel nice and warm.
>
> C'mon summer - so we can complain about the heat and flies.
>
> --
> Leigh Bunting
> Colonel Light Gardens
> South Australia
> 
>
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Quinn]

Do you fit the tug with skis ;-)

Redmond

*

Hey if you think 10c was cold - check out this Temp trace from Cooma,
approx 20km from Bunyan - home of the Canberra Gliding Club.

Standby for the Bunyan Snow Report. 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[Christopher Mc Donnell]

Leigh,
Would you please advise whether you replaced with a carbon fibre tailskid on
the Grunau as you did before?
This piece of indestructable high tech failing at the vintage regatta and
stealing several hours flying from you.
You are supposed to use the original equipment which is a cut leaf spring
from 1936 BMW Sports or a Mercedes SSK.
If you used the original part I am sure you will not experience the tissue
rejection again.

- Original Message - 
From: "Leigh Bunting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Soaring List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, 18 July 2004 4:19 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report


For those in the northern parts, it is bloody freezing in the southern
end of the country.

At Whitwarta on Saturday, it might have been barely 10°C. The wind chill
factor reduced that by several more.

It was soarable but difficult. Catherine took the club Hornet on an 75K
XC but missed out getting back by 5K because of the weather cycles.
Where it was sunny, or under an active passing Cu, there was a tight
thermal. But there was plenty of shadow and overdevelopement.

I had mounted a new tailskid on my Grunau, so took it for a testfly. The
temperature of the 40kt slipstream, if I poked my face passed the
windshield, would try to peel the skin off your face. Under Cu, in a
weak thermal and light rain, it was pretty cool in the open cockpit
anyway. With a theoretical L/D of 17, drifting downwind very far was not
an option.

Later on, I introduced a couple of our young pilots to some high-G turns
in the K21. Big deal - you say. These G's had a minus sign in front of
them. Heidi loved it. Andrew reserved his judgement. At least it pushed
some blood upwards and made us feel nice and warm.

C'mon summer - so we can complain about the heat and flies.

-- 
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia




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RE: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

[skf1]

Hey if you think 10c was cold - check out this Temp trace from Cooma,
approx 20km from Bunyan - home of the Canberra Gliding Club.

Standby for the Bunyan Snow Report. 

SDF   

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leigh
Bunting
Sent: Sunday, 18 July 2004 4:50 PM
To: Soaring List
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring Report

For those in the northern parts, it is bloody freezing in the southern 
end of the country.

At Whitwarta on Saturday, it might have been barely 10°C. The wind chill 
factor reduced that by several more.

It was soarable but difficult. Catherine took the club Hornet on an 75K 
XC but missed out getting back by 5K because of the weather cycles. 
Where it was sunny, or under an active passing Cu, there was a tight 
thermal. But there was plenty of shadow and overdevelopement.

I had mounted a new tailskid on my Grunau, so took it for a testfly. The 
temperature of the 40kt slipstream, if I poked my face passed the 
windshield, would try to peel the skin off your face. Under Cu, in a 
weak thermal and light rain, it was pretty cool in the open cockpit 
anyway. With a theoretical L/D of 17, drifting downwind very far was not 
an option.

Later on, I introduced a couple of our young pilots to some high-G turns 
in the K21. Big deal - you say. These G's had a minus sign in front of 
them. Heidi loved it. Andrew reserved his judgement. At least it pushed 
some blood upwards and made us feel nice and warm.

C'mon summer - so we can complain about the heat and flies.

-- 
Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring [Saturday in SA from AUGC]

[Simon Hackett]

On 10/2/04 9:58 AM, "Michael Texler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Booming day for most!
> 

It was a booming day 'up north' in SA, for sure. Not booming in the South :)
 
I did a declared 300 on the same day in VH-TCP. Motored up from Meningie to
Karoonda (85 km's, roughly) and shut the engine down to start the task
around 2.3pm. There wasn't much of anything on the half hour trip up to
Karoonda.

Had a hell of a struggle getting high at first - sawtooth from 1900 to
2800ish for most of an hour, creeping north from Karoonda toward Waikerie,
being thankful for the unreasonably good glide performance of the aircraft,
and listening to the same folk Michael mentioned, booming around at 12,000
at places 'farther North'.

Finally got to the 'good stuff' and wound up at a peak height of 13,500,
completed the task at around 8000 feet over Karoonda. I then managed a final
glide back from Karoonda pretty much back to Meningie in basically 'dead'
air, before warming the engine up in order to buzz the strip and scare the
Kangaroos off of it (it was 7.30pm when I got back to Meningie).

Great day - see attached photo for the view from just under 12,000,
somewhere near Waikerie, still in a 4.5 kt climb at the time...

This is the weather we were supposed to have for the Waikerie comps. But we
all know how good weather sometimes undertakes a policy of actively avoiding
gliding competitions...!

Cheers,
Simon

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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring Report - A Croweater at Camden

[Jason Armistead]

Leigh Bunting wrote:
>
> Derek Ruddock wrote:
> 
> > It seems like the infamous Camden blue hole was working in your favour.
> 
> Funny about that, people did mention about the blue hole!

The Camden Blue Hole is, in Sydney's gliding circles, almost as legendary as 
the Kangaroo Valley Black Panther.

There's a lot of conjecture as to what causes this phenomenon, where the sky 
above Camden is totally blue, yet the rest of the Sydney Basin is either 
socked in with 8/8 cloud, or covered in lovely Cu.  Sometimes, a reversal 
occurs, where Camden is the only place with the Cu, and everywhere else is 
blue.  There's seldom times when we're the only place that's socked in 
though :-)

Some say it's the presence of the Nepean river, running nearly 3/4 the way 
around the perimeter of the airport.  Perhaps the river alters the local 
water table, which leads to different ground temperatures and thus rates of 
air warming.  Others have speculated on the surrounding geography, which 
alters the "weather factory" in the parcel of air around Camden.  Certainly, 
I work at Minto, about 17 km as the crow flies from Camden, and we have NEVER 
had a hail storm there in the 14 years I've been there.  Yet surrounding 
districts, and especially The Crossroad (near Liverpool), regularly get 
battered with those big green clouds full of hail.  At Minto they just seem 
to split apart as they come from the SW, and then re-form again to our NE.  
Geography seems to be the most often suggested reason for this phenomenon.

Mother Nature doing what she does best - keeping us mere mortals guessing and 
in compete awe !

> > Isn't the DG lovely?
> 
> Very nice indeed.

I'm glad you got to have a flight.  She's a lovely bird.  It's a pity I 
missed you.  Next time if any Aus-Soarers are heading to Camden, why not let 
us know first ?  We'll always do our absolute best treat you right.  But, 
even more pleasing to me is that our Club is obviously visitor-focussed even 
if you turn up unannounced !

And for those planning on coming to Camden for "Back to Camden week" in 
September (details in the July Soaring Australia magazine, I believe), you 
might be as lucky as Leigh was in the DG.

Cheers

Jason Armistead


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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring Report - A Croweater at Camden

[Leigh Bunting]

Derek Ruddock wrote:

> It seems like the infamous Camden blue hole was working in your favour.

Funny about that, people did mention about the blue hole!

> Isn't the DG lovely?

Very nice indeed.

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia




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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring Report - A Croweater at Camden

[Derek Ruddock]

I'm glad you got into the air Leigh.
The reason I didn't turn up was that it was raining cats & dogs at my house, about 
70km to the north. 
The TAF was for broken cloud at 1000.
The automatic weather station at the field was dewpoint 13 temperature 13 humidity 100 
per cent.
In the previous week, we had 275mm of rain.
I decided to give it a miss...
It seems like the infamous Camden blue hole was working in your favour.

Isn't the DG lovely?
 

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/05/03 23:34:53 >>>
Last Friday I was in Sydney on business, so I took the opportunity to
stay the weekend. The primary reason was to visit the principle builder
of my Grunau Baby from 50 years ago, but he was only available on Sunday
afternoon. Hence I thought that I could visit the Camden mob to sample
the gliding scene. My Grunau was also flown at Camden in the
late50's/early 60's.

Unfortunately the weather wasn't conducive to a good flight and on
Saturday I had a 21 minute flight with Paul in the Sydney Gliding Club
K13 in air that was dead smooth as we wafted down to ground level from
the 3000' tow. I haven't flown a K13 for 30 years.

To be sure that flying at Camden is different from Balaklava.

Firstly the aviation traffic. With the heavies up above the 4500'
airspace limit, they certainly look a lot closer up high on the perch.
At our level, I understood that power was supposed to remain north and
gliders south of Camden, but the power fraternity seem to treat that
fairly loosely with twins and choppers needing to be avoided.

Secondly, at Balak, every paddock is an airfield for 100km radius.
Options at Camden are tight to say the least; being desperate for
somewhere to flop down other than the airfield must markedly increase
the pucker factor. Thirdly, a river surrounds three sides of the
airfield with dense and tall vegetation covering its banks. So final
turn over the retirement village with the river and trees on approach to
one-zero cuts undershoot options to a definite zero.

I was hoping for a trundle in the very new DG-1000 but a constant stream
of AEF's and an IS28 out of action followed by ops being shutdown by a
threatening thunderstorm ended the day.

However, the day wasn't a total loss with powered kites providing steady
entertainment including aerobatic displays from a Citabria, Pitts and
Sukoi. A couple of blokes (and list members) turned up from Canberra to
check out a Hornet being considered as their personnel flugzeugwagen. I
believe the smiles said it all after their test flights.

During Saturday night the heavens opened. I wished it had been daylight.
Don't see rain like that in SA these days.

With nothing else to do on Sunday morning, I ventured out to the
airfield early. Eventually the sky broke open and Richard Shemtob, the
Southern Cross tow pilot for the day arrived. After a couple of phone
calls, some others turned up and then more on their own accord, so the
DG was dragged out for my benefit and I had a couple of tows though the
sparse Cu at 2000' and sampled the delights of this very pleasant flying
machine with Andrew in the backseat. Andrew demo-ed its spinning
characteristics while I sampled its aerobatic capabilities. On the
second flight, thermals had started on which we could have stayed up,
but I was starting to be seriously time-challenged and had to end it.

I'm sorry that Jason and Derek couldn't make it during my time there.
Its always good to see the faces behind the postings. But my thanks go
to the hospitality of the Southern Cross Gliding Club and the Sydney
guys for making my visit memorable.

My afternoon visit to Kel Gore, who was a main man in the early days of
the Illarwara Soaring Club in the 40's/50's proved extremely
fascinating. A further surprise was also meeting Ray Wood, who was also
a member of the team. These guys built a Dickson primary, very likely
the one that Ray Ash now has, my GB and John Ashford's K2b. Incredible
that all three are still airworthy. In the mid-60's these guys moved out
of gliding into power by building two Piel Emeralds. Kel went on to
build three BD-4's, two of which he still owns; rebuilt a Gypsy Moth,
Pitts Special and had a hand in other Moths and to top it off rebuilt
three Stinson L-5's out of 5 imported wrecks. In his eighties, he still
runs an aviation business at Hoxton Park.

Seeing the photos of these old gliders from the 50's was a highlight
with some showing my GB in the construction phase.

Hoping you are all satisfactorily bored, now back to the arguments over
safety and contest rules.

Leigh Bunting
Colonel Light Gardens
South Australia





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Re: [aus-soaring] BORING, not

[ANDREW WRIGHT]

A nice flight Pete

Sunday at Gawler we launched 8 to 10 X/C singles at about 
12.30.  They all congregated in the only thermal over Gawler going to 
about 4 to 5000.  It was not exactly a "Plastic Stack" but it was the 
largest gaggle of gliders seen over Gawler for some time and 
everyone was very well behaved.
The day was scratchy to start with but eventually went to 
11,000' north of Jamestown.  Phil Ritchie in his DG 200 did 300, Adam 
Dukat did his 300km distance in the Discus (Congratulations Adam) 
and I had a very leisurely 208k in the Cirrus.
All in all it turned out to be a very nice "Sundi afternooon"

> I had a pleasant little flight on Saturday. One of our "old pelicans"
> did a quick run from Renmark to Loxton airfield and back. Since I had
> the glider next, I had to go a bit further: I poked around south of
> Loxton and went nearly to Pata, as far south as I've been from here.
> Naturally I took longer than David did, and I didn't experience the
> pig-farm thermal from quite as low as he did. (It's easy to identify
> by smell.)
> 
> My highest was 5200 feet, and the thermals were mostly wiggly and
> required a fair bit of re-centering. Which is fine, it's a good thing
> for me to practice.
> 
> Apparently on Sunday they went a bit higher. Any other stories?
> -- 
> Pete Siddall
> Sandpit Spotters Inc.
> 
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ANDREW WRIGHT


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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa

[Mark Newton]

On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 07:56:10AM +0930, Bernhard Eckey wrote:

 > Sounds like our flight in the ASH 25 was not a waste of time after all.

Oh, I never thought it was -- I'd happily kick other people out of the 
queue to do it again, too. :-)

  - mark


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -

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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa

[Peter Stephenson]

- Original Message -
From: "Philip Armytage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:11 PM
Subject: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa


>
> Thought the list was quiet, and I have discovered how allergic I am to
> silence...
>

Me too.  It means I am in a stall or upside down at the top of a loop
without enough speed and about to fall into my
straps..:-))

PeterS


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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa

[Bernhard Eckey]

Hi Mark

Sounds like our flight in the ASH 25 was not a waste of time after all.

Bernard Eckey
Ph. (08) 8356 8565 (W)
Ph. (08) 8449 2871 (H)
Fax (08) 8356 8565 (W)
Fax (08) 8242 3698 (H)
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Newton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa


> On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 11:11:07PM +1000, Philip Armytage wrote:
>  
>  > Cheers and lets have some more boring spring stories!
> 
> We've had a Westerly airstream over South Australia for most of the
> last week, which has brought us some pretty good flying weather: 
> Westerlies make our ridge work at AUGC.
> 
> A few of us took a day off last Wednesday;  Between the three of us
> we clocked up nearly 7 hours of flying time.  Cu at 4,500' with a 
> 4 kt thermal under every cloud made the going easy -- The ridge was
> going like gangbusters but we didn't care too much because the thermals
> were stronger and higher.
> 
> There's something particularly satisfying about making a phone call
> from the cockpit in the middle of the week to tell someone else that 
> you're flying while they're at work :-)
> 
> I went to Lochiel again on Saturday for a very similar day, except with
> 3 kt thermals under Cu at between 3,000' and 3,500'.  I flew our Pik for
> about two and a half hours, with easy climbs to cloudbase.  One 
> particularly memorable Cu over the south end of our ridge was a boomer:
> It was an elongated cloud, about 10km long into wind.  Cruising at 60 kts
> in the Pik, the averager was showing 8 kts up 'til I neared cloudbase
> and it rained on me (bloody Virga - I guess it's one way to turn a 
> Pik 20D into an Arrow :-).  Wet wings put me into brick-mode, but the
> ridge was close enough to keep me up until they dried out.
> 
> I finished off with some Bergfalke flying on the ridge at the end of
> the day after the thermals died out.  So I've clocked up almost 7 hours
> of flying from two days at AUGC;  not bad for spring time, hope it's
> an omen for the summer to come :-)
> 
>   - mark
> 
> 
> I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
> - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -
> 
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RE: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa

[Catherine Conway]

Mark 

You forgot to mention those of us that took Friday off :-) (because we
were sick of the SMS messages and automated ridge reports).  I had 3
hours in the Ventus before it was David's turn.  Cloudbase was 5,000'!
But I had to get down to the ridge so David could take some photos and
video.  David then spent the rest of the afternoon chasing the Pik.

We also stayed for Saturday and went right up the ridge line to Barn
Hill (about 40km away) then back. Then David and I swapped and I
instructed in the Puchatek for the afternoon before giving the boys 15
mins each on the ridge at the end of the day.

We really are lucky to have that ridge. 

I'll try to put some photos taken Friday up sometime soon.

-Cath 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf 
> Of Mark Newton

> 
> A few of us took a day off last Wednesday;  



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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring last Sunday in Wee Waa

[Mark Newton]

On Tue, Sep 10, 2002 at 11:11:07PM +1000, Philip Armytage wrote:
 
 > Cheers and lets have some more boring spring stories!

We've had a Westerly airstream over South Australia for most of the
last week, which has brought us some pretty good flying weather: 
Westerlies make our ridge work at AUGC.

A few of us took a day off last Wednesday;  Between the three of us
we clocked up nearly 7 hours of flying time.  Cu at 4,500' with a 
4 kt thermal under every cloud made the going easy -- The ridge was
going like gangbusters but we didn't care too much because the thermals
were stronger and higher.

There's something particularly satisfying about making a phone call
from the cockpit in the middle of the week to tell someone else that 
you're flying while they're at work :-)

I went to Lochiel again on Saturday for a very similar day, except with
3 kt thermals under Cu at between 3,000' and 3,500'.  I flew our Pik for
about two and a half hours, with easy climbs to cloudbase.  One 
particularly memorable Cu over the south end of our ridge was a boomer:
It was an elongated cloud, about 10km long into wind.  Cruising at 60 kts
in the Pik, the averager was showing 8 kts up 'til I neared cloudbase
and it rained on me (bloody Virga - I guess it's one way to turn a 
Pik 20D into an Arrow :-).  Wet wings put me into brick-mode, but the
ridge was close enough to keep me up until they dried out.

I finished off with some Bergfalke flying on the ridge at the end of
the day after the thermals died out.  So I've clocked up almost 7 hours
of flying from two days at AUGC;  not bad for spring time, hope it's
an omen for the summer to come :-)

  - mark


I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 but it hurt when I walked.  Mark Newton
- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 -

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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring, NOT

[wendoure]

Kevin,
What frequency were you on. I called on all three usual ones, then came to
the conclusion that I was the only person flying cross country in SE Qld. I
dig Kingaroy Chinchilla DDSC in under thre  hours. About 300K.

Regards
Bob Ward
Ventus 2CM BW
- Original Message -
From: "kevin saunders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [aus-soaring] Boring, NOT


> Visit to Kingaroy last Sunday. 6 kts to 7000' and plenty of CU's.
> First flight in Duo Discus, with Luke Dodd. 200k at over 100 kph.
> Very pleasant.
>
> Kevin Saunders.
> GCWA.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ashford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [aus-soaring] Boring, NOT
>
>
> > Alice Springs was looking good all week but Saturday saw high cirrus
> masking
> > the sun.  A bit doubtfull for  cross country but a couple of short ones
> were
> > achieved.  12500' till 1700hours then shut down.  Just a pleasant flying
> > day.
> >
> > John Ashford
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 7:23 PM
> > Subject: [aus-soaring] Boring, NOT
> >
> >
> > > Saturday - it rained in the Riverland. Seems a long time since that
> > happened.
> > >
> > > Sunday - blue skies developing fluffy Cus. I scored the Mosquito
(yay).
> In
> > one place, the lift was still strong when I left at cloudbase (4500
feet).
> > Found two sustained 6 knot climbs, mostly 3 or 4 knots though.
> > >
> > > Although it wasn't a day for huge XC flights, it was a pretty pleasant
> > flight. I sometimes catch myself thinking "summer's over, no gliding"
but
> it
> > ain't so.
> > >
> > > How'd everyone else go?
> > > --
> > > I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.
> > >
> > > --
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> > >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: [aus-soaring] Boring, NOT

[Ashford]

Alice Springs was looking good all week but Saturday saw high cirrus masking
the sun.  A bit doubtfull for  cross country but a couple of short ones were
achieved.  12500' till 1700hours then shut down.  Just a pleasant flying
day.

John Ashford
- Original Message -
From: "Pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: [aus-soaring] Boring, NOT


> Saturday - it rained in the Riverland. Seems a long time since that
happened.
>
> Sunday - blue skies developing fluffy Cus. I scored the Mosquito (yay). In
one place, the lift was still strong when I left at cloudbase (4500 feet).
Found two sustained 6 knot climbs, mostly 3 or 4 knots though.
>
> Although it wasn't a day for huge XC flights, it was a pretty pleasant
flight. I sometimes catch myself thinking "summer's over, no gliding" but it
ain't so.
>
> How'd everyone else go?
> --
> I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory.
>
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