Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
The vent hole on the shroud is an excellent idea, McPhee alerted me to that you came up with that idea - it's on my list to do this form2. I can only imagine the life span it'd take away from my instruments. I'd like to change my shroud color too, the color wasn't chosen by me. Another one of those jobs to get around too.. Re: fuses, there's an extra one on my panel for the electric bug wipers that'll one day find themselves installed. On a side note, I'm with James Dutschke - the B700 is amazing as a vario. It'd be also great as a sole vario in your glider. I've in fact have owned two, reason: to long to describe, rest assured it was for good reasons! Safe Circles, WPP On 28 Apr 2015, at 19:26, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: I don't see a magnetic compass. Isn't compliant with airworthiness requirements. Also nasty shine on the black instrument panel cover. Humbrol Matt Black 33 from your local Toyworld or hobby shop fixes that. 2 coats out of two small cans. Brushes nicely with 1/2 soft brush. Also no vent hole in the cover to let out hot air. Bad pup, no biscuit. Mike At 06:32 PM 28/04/2015, you wrote: You have a whole lot of fuses and switches there. More fuses than instruments. Why so many? On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 6:57 AM, go_soaring go_soar...@hotmail.com wrote: G'day all, My apologies, forgot to mention that I run an LX Colibri II as my independent backup vario nav source. I've flown a practice 400km flight with it prior to the Nationals this year, surprisingly worked really well as a vario. After all, Tobias Geiger almost won a world championships by flying with a Colibri II alone!! The only thing that would make me feel even better about my CNv, is to have Borgelts brilliant backup battery supply to his B instruments added to the CNv - I'm sure it's saved many Mike! Cheers, WPP P.s. My panel as it is now 2a115de.JPG On 27 Apr 2015, at 18:11, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 08:38 PM 27/04/2015, you wrote: So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario. Anyone who doesn't think an outlanding in a glider is a greater risk than landing back at the known aerodrome they took off from should get some re-training. Or start thinking. After all what could possibly go wrong? You couldn't possibly get a loss of control while manoeuvering for the landing on an unfamiliar paddock could you? Or while trying to catch a thermal to get away from low altitude? Made more difficult in the case under discussion by not having a vario. Or hit an impossible to see power line? Or a tree? Or a line of trees cause unexpected wind shear? Or ground loop and break the tailboom because the wingtip caught in the grass which was longer than you thought? Or hit the hidden fence in the long grass? (two very experienced contest pilots took a dual high tow one day to do some performance comparisons. They had a fine old time until one said to the other we're at 2500 feet. Where is the aerodrome? Yes, two outlandings in the same paddock. Fairly rough, long grass, the second guy to land landed to one side of the other. When they got out and met they found they were different sides of a fence. Yes, failure to adequately brief and decide who was formation lead at what time, amongst others.) Or damage the landing gear by dropping into a rabbit hole? Or cattle were in the paddock when the ground was wet leaving deep hoofprints now that the ground is rock hard? Or there are hidden largish rocks in the grass? Or the tailskid causes a fire (it has happened)? Or the hidden ditch? Or the river bed that looked like a last ditch way to avoid a bad accident in a contest flown over unlandable terrain with only the occasional ranch airstrip turned out to be full of human head sized boulders? I'm sure there have been other creative ways to break people and gliders in outlandings. I've done 62 in real paddocks not counting aerodromes I didn't originally intend to land on. Only damage was a flat tyre when a lump of Mallee root hit the wheel rim, removing a segment which slashed the tube but not the tyre on the way out. Last day of a contest fortunately. Luck. Yes, there are procedures. They are designed to minimise risk but they won't eliminate it in this case as there are things simply beyond your ability to sense. There is always an element of luck. Mindlessly following these procedures and expecting everything will be OK is hopelessly naive. And no, gliding doesn't need more stupid rules. There are far too many already. Application of knowledge and commonsense would be good though. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 05:32 PM 27/04/2015, I wrote: If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. We sold 1000+ B40's from 1995 to 2005. My US outlet told me many many US pilots were installing them and turning off the audio on their LNAVs. You may find that the backup is the vario you like better. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Which turns out to be remarkably self enforcing, because for someone who's only ever flown with a vario it's extraordinarily hard to get out of gliding distance without one. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 8:38 PM, Sean Jorgensen-Day sean.jorgensen...@bigpond.com wrote: *“*For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup.” So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: “You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario.” ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
YES in the Nationals. It felt like the wings had fallen off. I had no backup….. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com mailto:cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com mailto:plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit:
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Twice. Both in state comps. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: Thereâs no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Hi All, Don’t usually give free plugs but Mike’s B700 is about as good a backup or main vario as it is possible to obtain. It has the works. A back up battery and a good audio, averager and vario. About the same cost as a manual vario but many times better. I have an expensive bells and whistles vario but the needles move in unison with Mike’s modestly priced B700, Harry Medlicott From: Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 5:32 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: Thereâs no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: *There’s no need for a winter backup now *Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments* - *design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Not a failure as such. But I did do a flight in a club aircraft with only an airspeed indicator, altimeter and a radio functional. I knew that was all that was working at take-off though. I flew in thermals for over an hour. Fortunately the launch before mine marked a thermal for me. But I managed to feel my way around the sky from there. Did wonders for my early thermalling skills. Anthony From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:25 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com mailto:cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com mailto:plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
It's easy: point the nose away from the field and wait. You'll be out of gliding distance in no time. - mark On 27 Apr 2015, at 8:55 pm, Matthew Scutter yellowplant...@gmail.com wrote: Which turns out to be remarkably self enforcing, because for someone who's only ever flown with a vario it's extraordinarily hard to get out of gliding distance without one. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 8:38 PM, Sean Jorgensen-Day sean.jorgensen...@bigpond.com wrote: “For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup.” So you are saying that a outlanding is a risky occurrence? People are outlanding all the time, except for a few occasions they seem to be walking away and still have a glider they can use. Maybe we should ban outlandings? Suggested new rule may read: “You must remain in gliding distance of a suitable landing point, unless you have a working vario.” ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Yes, Catherine lent me her son and newly arrived 2 seater with its single vario which chose to rest the needle in the top right corner, so we had to use the back up on the bottom of the back seat. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Yes, on several occasions. First time was halfway around the task in the Nationals. Always due to main battery failure so I lost the main flight computer and audio as well. The Winter got me home every time. I learned to soar on manual varios with no audio so it was just back to basics. On two occasions I used WinPilot running on its own battery for my averager but it was a pain. I now have triple battery systems, dual loggers (LX9000 plus Colibri II), dual GPS and electric + mechanical vario's. ROSS From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect many aren't. If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. Mike Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Nick, I used the faster time constant Winter mechanical on every single flight (the standard Winter is a nice instrument, but the faster version is magnificent). It wasn't there as a backup (although it obviously could have served that purpose). It was there as the primary. It was better than any electric I flew with, and came with a guarantee that no computer algorithm was between the reading and what I could feel. I often flew with the audio volume low - so that I could hear the air. This was particularly important in the Discus at high wing loadings, as the feel was damped. I heard Ingo on this subject (turn down the audio volume) in casual conversation. If it was good for Ingo then I figured it was worth doing too. My view is that any volume dial has turn up for SLOW as a consequence not just the radio. That's not an argument against audio vario - it's an argument to use it judiciously and not drown out the sound of the air. The Winter got me home on the last weak thermal of the day a couple of times. The electrics were still working fine, but the Winter had greater sensitivity. By the way, I also tried a Sage mechanical for a couple of seasons, and went back to the Winter. Get your wiring right. Don't save cents on low grade wire. Replace batteries regularly, and install a backup. Use a good charger. Probability of failure reduces from low to very unlikely. But still have a mechanical because it helps centering, and in weak lift, and helps you to figure out the language of the air moving past the cockpit. Cheers Bruce Sent from my iPad from a comfortable couch seat in temporary retirement (from gliding) On 27 Apr 2015, at 7:14 pm, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate cussedness of inanimate matter. When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you would miss the averager. If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going to simply flip the switch to
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Hi James, Good question, deserving an answer. In a lifetime of flying, here is my experience with instrument failure: Direct failure of the vario – once only. Ironically it was the mechanical vario that failed, but I had an electronic “ back up” – not a big deal. Experienced a plugged TE probe once – proved to be a VERY small spider (alive at the time, so it moved about in the line, thus rendering the DI check useless). I could fly by the “seat of my pants” OK, but not effectively compete. Task was eventually abandoned, and I returned to base, and blew out the line. Also (in a comp) – and once only thank God – total power failure INCLUDING failure of the back- up battery – unbelievable! I was very happy to have a mechanical Sage I can tell you, and hardly missed a beat, soaring wise, despite the elevated level of stress, and having to mentally do the final glide calculations. However the lesson I learnt here had nothing to do with any of this. Not having a radio at the finish proved, in the event, to be quite dangerous. So, if you ever find yourself in this situation, allow yourself a bit of extra height, to visually work out what is going on at the finish aerodrome, when you arrive, and if the wind is reasonably light, it is probably a good idea not to land on the active strip. Also had one altimeter failure in flight. Again not a big deal. Never had an in flight radio failure. That’s it! Regarding Mike B’s original comment on this topic, I think he has more or less totally covered it. However I will make one comment on his post. I think he makes a little too much of the dangers associated with outlanding: Make no mistake – there ARE very real dangers. However each and every one of us has been taught the proper procedures on how to deal with an outlanding. If you follow the procedures, you will be generally OK, with NO damage to glider or self, in almost 100% of cases. If you choose to ignore the procedures, well all I can say is “good luck”, because you will need it! Gary From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:55 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy Straw poll. Has anyone, had a vario failure. Sent from my iPhone On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com wrote: Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at the instrument would make things worse. Nick On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com wrote: I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider. I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money on the Winter Vario. However I agree with Mike. A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good insurance. In my case I have something in case of electrical failure. No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it difficult. On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote: There’s no need for a winter backup now Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time. The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails. Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals if you do reasonably this day. For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over lack of a backup. If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason. A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when you've had another failure. The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and will likely just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly different information without changing modes which can be useful. We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting fate, Murphy's Law
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
The Winter got me home on the last weak thermal of the day a couple of times. The electrics were still working fine, but the Winter had greater sensitivity. Agreed. Although I use the audio from an electrovario, there's something about the way the Winter needle moves which tells you far more about the air in the immediate vicinity of a thermal. That and your arse. You hear the noise from the noisy vario, glance down at the vibrating needle of the Winter and then wait to turn or pass it up. I rarely look at the electric thing other than to see what the average is after a few turns. My opinion is that the undamped mechanical varios are very useful indeed. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy
Mike was the first to include this feature, but... Every electric vario can have a backup battery. Pardon the Text-O-CAD. Jim SPDT ON/ON Switch | Main Supply + _ \__ Instrument + Backup Supply + ___ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
I should add that none of our instruments have required a flask since 1982. We've used solid state silicon pressure sensors since then. Also all drive vario repeater displays for two seaters. Metric or knots and on the B600/B800/B700/B900 the calibration can be changed by PC(B600/800) or in the instrument (B700/900) and by flipping the display bezel around the 45 degrees axis. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
The new 2015 B600/B800 software is available. A minor bugfix and some re-arrangement of the GCD for better ergonomics (mostly can fly just on the one display page). Plus some internal cleanups. Email me off list for a copy. I'll take a photo of the new GCD flying page later this afternoon I hope. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
Hi Mike I would like one please. Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 13:02, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: The new 2015 B600/B800 software is available. A minor bugfix and some re-arrangement of the GCD for better ergonomics (mostly can fly just on the one display page). Plus some internal cleanups. Email me off list for a copy. I'll take a photo of the new GCD flying page later this afternoon I hope. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
From: Paul Bart Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 1:50 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios Hi Mike I would like one please. Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 13:02, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: The new 2015 B600/B800 software is available. A minor bugfix and some re-arrangement of the GCD for better ergonomics (mostly can fly just on the one display page). Plus some internal cleanups. Email me off list for a copy. I'll take a photo of the new GCD flying page later this afternoon I hope. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
Funny Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 14:00, Christopher McDonnell wommamuku...@bigpond.com wrote: [image: Winking smile] *From:* Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com *Sent:* Monday, December 01, 2014 1:50 PM *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] varios Hi Mike I would like one please. Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 13:02, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: The new 2015 B600/B800 software is available. A minor bugfix and some re-arrangement of the GCD for better ergonomics (mostly can fly just on the one display page). Plus some internal cleanups. Email me off list for a copy. I'll take a photo of the new GCD flying page later this afternoon I hope. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
Offline , please. Mike At 01:50 PM 1/12/2014, you wrote: Hi Mike I would like one please. Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 13:02, Mike Borgelt mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.commborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: The new 2015 B600/B800 software is available. A minor bugfix and some re-arrangement of the GCD for better ergonomics (mostly can fly just on the one display page). Plus some internal cleanups. Email me off list for a copy. I'll take a photo of the new GCD flying page later this afternoon I hope. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list mailto:Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.netAus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaringhttp://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784: int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
Already got my reprimand :), with a picture, rather an apt one. Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 14:10, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: Offline , please. Mike At 01:50 PM 1/12/2014, you wrote: Hi Mike I would like one please. Cheers Paul On 1 December 2014 at 13:02, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: The new 2015 B600/B800 software is available. A minor bugfix and some re-arrangement of the GCD for better ergonomics (mostly can fly just on the one display page). Plus some internal cleanups. Email me off list for a copy. I'll take a photo of the new GCD flying page later this afternoon I hope. Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring *Borgelt Instruments* - *design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I guess there are a few things to consider when contemplating a total electrical failure. The first is that in many hours and many kilometres I have never had one, though I am quite fussy about how I set up and care for the whole system. The second is that with the B40/B400 you would have an independently supplied averager/audio still running, and the third is that if you were flying a comp, you would now have no means of verification, so you may as well go home anyway. I guess your point is that going home might be pretty difficult with nothing but an altimeter... BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
yep that was the point JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I guess there are a few things to consider when contemplating a total electrical failure. The first is that in many hours and many kilometres I have never had one, though I am quite fussy about how I set up and care for the whole system. The second is that with the B40/B400 you would have an independently supplied averager/audio still running, and the third is that if you were flying a comp, you would now have no means of verification, so you may as well go home anyway. I guess your point is that going home might be pretty difficult with nothing but an altimeter... BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios
Ok I guess I can take some heat for my input into this discussion if I put my foot in it, so here goes On new or revamped instrument installations my recommendations are as follows, for what its worth:- use a primary vario / speed command of your choice all the major manufacturers have their good and bad features, but Oz built has its advantages when there's a problem, Mike has always got time to try and nut out the problems on the phone or email with glitches in the system. If you want to run a backup Vario, (and as Bruce says how often do you get total electrical failure) apart from club gliders where the gorillas (sic) have worked on them ! run a electric vario that compliments the primary vario, in which I mean most modern systems today run pressure transducers, and mixing pneumatic various which are flow technology with pressure T/X is asking for trouble, as there is going to be some interaction between the two varios, which could degrade the primary vario, the up side of fitting a modern electric vario is you will get a faster response instrument and audio vario as a bonus, and it will probably have its own back up battery pack, if you get one of these fabled total power failures. all for a very similar price to a steam driven vario with all the features listed, if you make the right choice (I'm trying very hard not to let my bias show here) Chris Runeckles Universal Plastics W.A. agent for Borgelt Instruments - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) yep that was the point JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I guess there are a few things to consider when contemplating a total electrical failure. The first is that in many hours and many kilometres I have never had one, though I am quite fussy about how I set up and care for the whole system. The second is that with the B40/B400 you would have an independently supplied averager/audio still running, and the third is that if you were flying a comp, you would now have no means of verification, so you may as well go home anyway. I guess your point is that going home might be pretty difficult with nothing but an altimeter... BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 5:29 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Thanks Bruce, I flew a mates glider not long ago, and it had an all electric panel, and the thought crossed my mind, if you had an electrical failure you would be up shite creek, regardless of what the next turnpoint was, and for that reason alone a little winter tucked away on the panel is a good thing. regards JR - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have my audio set so that it breaks tone right on zero, and I find that quite satisfactory, even in very light lift. Once again, the only thing that really matters is what the averager is saying, and in this situation you are looking for it to stay positive. I still have a Winter vario on my panel, but would be quite content with a electric backup, especially something like the B40/B400 which gives an audio and averager function as well. I've been trying to get Cambridge to make such an instrument for about 10 years now! I don't think what I do is any different to most competent cross-country pilots. I do see a number of people baffling themselves with science, and good, clean soaring flight needs to be kept simple. All the really useful info is outside, especially when you find yourself low and in trouble. When you are in such a stressful situation it is very easy to focus back inside the cockpit, and I still have to tell myself to look up and out when the pressure is on. BT - Original Message - From: JR [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Hi All, I was imagining I might be able to stay silent, but I can't help myself... Please, no offence to Mike or any others, it is just that we all see things slightly differently, thank heavens. I don't think I ever watch the vario needle while flying. I would very happily fly at any level with a good audio and a large, easily read digital averager set high on the panel, and pretty much nothing else. Soon I plan to fly some comp days with everything else covered up, just to see whether I really do ignore it, but I have had a number of people flying in the back seat while I am in front comment on the fact that I almost never look at the panel. I prefer my audio to have a single tone, and find no need for any indication of whether I am in rising air that is above or below my Macready setting. I simply want to know if I am going up, or if I am not. I also do not use relative netto during the cruise, but this is a very personal choice. This audio MUST be as close to perfectly compensated as is possible with the system that you are using. I have to say that very few gliders I have borrowed/stolen have a vario that really works. And I have to agree totally with Mike - if the vario signal is coming from one source, then make it a good one, and if it is coming from two sources, pitot and static, then give it a good chance of working and keep the lines from both as close to the same length as you can. This doesn't have to cost heaps of money. Work on the KISS principle... The decision to stop and climb in any particular bit of rising air comes from other sources, primarily the structure of the thermal that is felt as you fly into it, much more than any peak vario indication. Usually you find that a well-structured thermal will produce a better bottom-to-top average than one which shows strong gusts and high peak readings as you approach it. As you are arriving at the edge of a thermal is not a good time to be watching the panel, for a lot of reasons. I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some additional problems - the pitot and static ports are more sensitive to yaw and sideslip than the modern two hole TE probe is and you need to organise the pitot and static signals to arrive at the same time at the instrument to avoid undesirable transient effects. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Further to Bruce a few years ago a guy had a needle fall off his electric vario and he was actually happy to keep flying that week as it made him listen to the audio. He still had his digital averager which was the only thing he wanted to look at!! Ian McPhee - Original Message - From: Bruce Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) Hi All, I was imagining I might be able to stay silent, but I can't help myself... Please, no offence to Mike or any others, it is just that we all see things slightly differently, thank heavens. I don't think I ever watch the vario needle while flying. I would very happily fly at any level with a good audio and a large, easily read digital averager set high on the panel, and pretty much nothing else. Soon I plan to fly some comp days with everything else covered up, just to see whether I really do ignore it, but I have had a number of people flying in the back seat while I am in front comment on the fact that I almost never look at the panel. I prefer my audio to have a single tone, and find no need for any indication of whether I am in rising air that is above or below my Macready setting. I simply want to know if I am going up, or if I am not. I also do not use relative netto during the cruise, but this is a very personal choice. This audio MUST be as close to perfectly compensated as is possible with the system that you are using. I have to say that very few gliders I have borrowed/stolen have a vario that really works. And I have to agree totally with Mike - if the vario signal is coming from one source, then make it a good one, and if it is coming from two sources, pitot and static, then give it a good chance of working and keep the lines from both as close to the same length as you can. This doesn't have to cost heaps of money. Work on the KISS principle... The decision to stop and climb in any particular bit of rising air comes from other sources, primarily the structure of the thermal that is felt as you fly into it, much more than any peak vario indication. Usually you find that a well-structured thermal will produce a better bottom-to-top average than one which shows strong gusts and high peak readings as you approach it. As you are arriving at the edge of a thermal is not a good time to be watching the panel, for a lot of reasons. I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some additional problems
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
Bruce, how does your system work in very weak lift, and does anybody else other than me still use a mechanical vario on the panel ? regards JR - Original Message - From: Luke Dodd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths) I have taken too much space already... back into my box. BT Oh no you haven't, please vent more from your informed spleen. Luke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] varios(was FLARM maths)
At 06:46 PM 14/11/2006, David Griffiths wrote: I am impressed I did not even know that this type of gear was available. Is this all prototype stuff or is it in production? You might like to look at the B500 on our site at www.borgeltinstruments.com Australian designed and manufactured, sold worldwide. Before getting too excited about varios without visual indicators people might like to consider how they decide whether to turn in a particular thermal that is encountered. The vario pointer isn't the only thing but I bet it is an important part of your decision. Relative netto was designed to help with this - see our website for details if you don't know what relative netto does(it is in articles). Changing the audio at the MacCready setting as we do in the B500 and B50 lets you know to look at the vario but for reasons explained by John Cochrane in his paper and nearly 40 years ago by Anthony Edwards, you fly at Macready settings that are quite low compared to the actual rates of climb you get so you might not make the decision to turn just based on that audio change. Likewise when picking a best path through the air, particularly when streeting, including the vario pointer in your scan is important. To be really useful here the vario pointer should be high resolution too. We rejected LCDs on the grounds that the pointer resolution was too coarse. When working very weak lift the speed of response and resolution of the vario itself becomes important. When working 5 knots at altitude a poor vario will do. When at 600 feet over a paddock trying to avoid an outlanding by working +/-0.5 knots you need all the help you can get. With some vario technologies there are unavoidable speed of response/resolution tradeoffs. Lastly, Total energy is total energy whether it is done by a probe providing suction below static pressure or whether you measure pitot and static pressures and add them electronically to provide the same thing. They both suffer from horizontal gust effects (see article on website) to the same extent but the pitot/static scheme has some additional problems - the pitot and static ports are more sensitive to yaw and sideslip than the modern two hole TE probe is and you need to organise the pitot and static signals to arrive at the same time at the instrument to avoid undesirable transient effects. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
