Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

[Matt Hare]

This can be done today. You can port your mobile number to a SIP provider
who can terminate it. I have one I ported out to a provider, they provide a
SIP endpoint, I direct inbound calls to my asterisk box via IP trunk. SMS
inbound to the number is converted to email and sent to me in real time.
I've got an option to direct inbound SMS to a SIP extension but I haven't
played with that to see what actually happens...

Matt

On 1 May 2018 at 06:56, Mark Tees  wrote:

> I am kind of wondering if we can get to a stage of complete number
> virtualisation. Mainly so when I’m overseas I can more easily direct actual
> inbound SMS how I see fit. Have also had the same number for almost 10
> years.  At present I hook up an Android phone and send/receive SMS via
> email or forwarding with normal call diversion.
>
> Ideally, I could port my number to a virtual mobile service and receive
> calls via SIP of whatever then receive SMS via API calls or email.
>
> From the carrier VOIP side it would be awesome if we could receive SMS in
> a similar fashion as SIP.
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

[Mark Tees]

It certainly does sound like they can do it based on the AU porting doc.

Ho Hummm :)

On Tue, 1 May 2018 at 10:06, Brad Peczka <b...@bradpeczka.com> wrote:

> I think we're already here - certainly not in a mainstream offering, but
> it can be done using providers like Twilio and is something I've kicked
> around as a proof of concept for a few use cases.
>
>
> ​Diversion of incoming calls to a SIP endpoint, and SMSes to email, using
> their service is definitely possible.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> -Brad.
>
>
> --
> *From:* AusNOG <ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net> on behalf of Mark Tees <
> markt...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 1 May 2018 6:56 AM
> *To:* Matthew Moyle-Croft
> *Cc:* aus...@ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia
>
> I am kind of wondering if we can get to a stage of complete number
> virtualisation. Mainly so when I’m overseas I can more easily direct actual
> inbound SMS how I see fit. Have also had the same number for almost 10
> years.  At present I hook up an Android phone and send/receive SMS via
> email or forwarding with normal call diversion.
>
> Ideally, I could port my number to a virtual mobile service and receive
> calls via SIP of whatever then receive SMS via API calls or email.
>
> From the carrier VOIP side it would be awesome if we could receive SMS in
> a similar fashion as SIP.
>
>
> On Tue, 1 May 2018 at 07:36, Matthew Moyle-Croft <m...@mmc.com.au> wrote:
>
>> Previous thread about fake caller ID made me think about what phone
>> numbers mean in the Australian context.
>>
>> Historically we’ve had numbers that are geo based for landlines (02, 03,
>> 08 etc) and other numbers that delineate the cost to call (eg. 04 for
>> mobile, 13/18 for fixed cost non-geo or free, 1900 for “premium” etc). But
>> we’re now looking to a future where a range of factors are meaning that the
>> differentiation is less meaningful.
>>
>> A _lot_ of people are moving, because of generation change, NBN, etc to
>> only have a mobile number. Many people are on mobile or “fixed line” plans
>> where calls are all-inclusive so knowing the cost of a call from the phone
>> number is pretty much irrelevant. My parents and some of my grandparents
>> (yes I still have them) basically use mobile only and don’t answer home
>> phones *because* of the scams on home phones!  I don’t actually know what
>> my brothers and sisters home phone numbers are.
>>
>> There’s still a historic “interconnect” charging model/market between
>> telcos that I suspect is just as painful as when I last looked at it.
>>
>> What is the future for voice and calls in Australia? Do geo-numbers make
>> sense? Why shouldn’t I be able to have an 08   number as my mobile
>> number? (I know the back-end charging/porting reasons, but we’re looking
>> forward not backward here).
>>
>> Even calling internationally - voice calls now between countries are
>> generally so awful to use (delay, crappy audio etc) that even for business
>> calls I use things like Facetime/Facebook/WhatsApp/Hangout calls where the
>> voice is so good and low delay I can’t tell where the other person is from.
>>
>> I suspect nothing much will change and that’s primarily because the major
>> telcos with mobile networks want to continue to make money out of charging
>> each other for calls, but, even that I suspect will all fade away.
>>
>> We do get attached to phone numbers - my Australian mobile is one from
>> the dawn of GSM in Australia and I’ve had it now for more than 20 years and
>> even though I don’t live in Australia at the moment I keep it running on a
>> long life prepaid! So, don’t think I lack sentiment here.
>>
>> MMC
>>
>> ___
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>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mark L. Tees
>
-- 
Regards,

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Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

[Brad Peczka]

I think we're already here - certainly not in a mainstream offering, but it can 
be done using providers like Twilio and is something I've kicked around as a 
proof of concept for a few use cases.


?Diversion of incoming calls to a SIP endpoint, and SMSes to email, using their 
service is definitely possible.


Regards,

-Brad.



From: AusNOG <ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net> on behalf of Mark Tees 
<markt...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 1 May 2018 6:56 AM
To: Matthew Moyle-Croft
Cc: aus...@ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

I am kind of wondering if we can get to a stage of complete number 
virtualisation. Mainly so when I'm overseas I can more easily direct actual 
inbound SMS how I see fit. Have also had the same number for almost 10 years.  
At present I hook up an Android phone and send/receive SMS via email or 
forwarding with normal call diversion.

Ideally, I could port my number to a virtual mobile service and receive calls 
via SIP of whatever then receive SMS via API calls or email.

>From the carrier VOIP side it would be awesome if we could receive SMS in a 
>similar fashion as SIP.


On Tue, 1 May 2018 at 07:36, Matthew Moyle-Croft 
<m...@mmc.com.au<mailto:m...@mmc.com.au>> wrote:
Previous thread about fake caller ID made me think about what phone numbers 
mean in the Australian context.

Historically we've had numbers that are geo based for landlines (02, 03, 08 
etc) and other numbers that delineate the cost to call (eg. 04 for mobile, 
13/18 for fixed cost non-geo or free, 1900 for "premium" etc). But we're now 
looking to a future where a range of factors are meaning that the 
differentiation is less meaningful.

A _lot_ of people are moving, because of generation change, NBN, etc to only 
have a mobile number. Many people are on mobile or "fixed line" plans where 
calls are all-inclusive so knowing the cost of a call from the phone number is 
pretty much irrelevant. My parents and some of my grandparents (yes I still 
have them) basically use mobile only and don't answer home phones *because* of 
the scams on home phones!  I don't actually know what my brothers and sisters 
home phone numbers are.

There's still a historic "interconnect" charging model/market between telcos 
that I suspect is just as painful as when I last looked at it.

What is the future for voice and calls in Australia? Do geo-numbers make sense? 
Why shouldn't I be able to have an 08   number as my mobile number? (I 
know the back-end charging/porting reasons, but we're looking forward not 
backward here).

Even calling internationally - voice calls now between countries are generally 
so awful to use (delay, crappy audio etc) that even for business calls I use 
things like Facetime/Facebook/WhatsApp/Hangout calls where the voice is so good 
and low delay I can't tell where the other person is from.

I suspect nothing much will change and that's primarily because the major 
telcos with mobile networks want to continue to make money out of charging each 
other for calls, but, even that I suspect will all fade away.

We do get attached to phone numbers - my Australian mobile is one from the dawn 
of GSM in Australia and I've had it now for more than 20 years and even though 
I don't live in Australia at the moment I keep it running on a long life 
prepaid! So, don't think I lack sentiment here.

MMC

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Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

[Nick Stallman]

I always thought the E.164 to DNS mapping would have been really cool.
Extremely flexible call routing, nearly instantly portable, no lock in 
and even free calls, just like domain names.


Pity the free calls bit means no telco is going to willingly implement 
it, even if it would make things far easier for them.


Wikipedia says Australia trialled it in 2007.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.164#DNS_mapping_of_E.164_numbers


On 01/05/18 09:29, Mark Delany wrote:

On 30Apr18, Matthew Moyle-Croft allegedly wrote:

Historically we???ve had numbers that are geo based for landlines (02, 03, 08 
etc) and other numbers that delineate the cost to call (eg. 04 for mobile, 
13/18 for fixed cost non-geo or free, 1900 for ???premium??? etc). But we???re 
now looking to a future where a range of factors are meaning that the 
differentiation is less meaningful.

(Not sure whether this is strictly a nogger topic, but interesting
nonetheless).

It's a shame that geo numbers are falling into disuse as people like
the location information conveyed with a number as well as the
txt-capability feature advertised with 04/05 too.

These two preferences along with the ultimate decline towards zero in
voice and txt revenue seem like an opportunity to "re-invent" this
address space as it is one of only two globally federated address
spaces - and thus *extremely* rare and valuable.

But like you I doubt very much whether any innovation will
occur. Apart from the current cash-cow issue, probably the biggest
problems are:

   a) any change has to come via the glacially slow Telco standards
  bodies

   b) implementation is now largely in the hards of vendors which
  supply and manage an ever increasing number of phone networks on
  behalf of Telcos (cf Ericsson and Telstra).

  Unfortunately telco vendors are as much fans of federated
  solutions as all the failed messaging products and services we
  see on the Internet... which is to say, not at all.

   c) The revenue problem: Telcos never implement anything unless there
  is a very strong link to revenue. A rich and open address-space
  is not that thing by a long-shot (cf email).

   d) Telcos thus far control the destiny of phone numbers and they
  view their exclusive rights as not-over-my-dead-body turf. Even
  if they don't know how to leverage it they are right to worry
  that others might know - thus further eating into their revenue
  streams. They would much rather a dead address space than handing
  it over to innovation.

My fantasy is a revivified ENUM which advertises features/capabilities
for a given number - perhaps with carrier-only access to minimize
abuse.

But on past experience the telcos never even managed to deal with the
most trivial feature-discontinuity issue between mobile and landlines
(cf mobile address-space in the US) or txt and mms. That track-record
suggests that the prospect of reliably enhancing this address-space
are less than zero.


But don't get me started :-)


Mark.
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Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

[andrew khoo]

Google Voice (non Fi-integrated) came close to a model i liked, albeit
limited to +1 numbers. SMS and/or voice forwarded to other devices or
email, even transcribed. outbound to non +1 at Hangouts rates.

alas, now that I have integrated it with my Fi account, most of the magic
has gone away.

(features are moving targets at Google)



On Tue, 1 May 2018 at 08:56, Mark Tees  wrote:

> I am kind of wondering if we can get to a stage of complete number
> virtualisation. Mainly so when I’m overseas I can more easily direct actual
> inbound SMS how I see fit. Have also had the same number for almost 10
> years.  At present I hook up an Android phone and send/receive SMS via
> email or forwarding with normal call diversion.
>
> Ideally, I could port my number to a virtual mobile service and receive
> calls via SIP of whatever then receive SMS via API calls or email.
>
> From the carrier VOIP side it would be awesome if we could receive SMS in
> a similar fashion as SIP.
>
>
> On Tue, 1 May 2018 at 07:36, Matthew Moyle-Croft  wrote:
>
>> Previous thread about fake caller ID made me think about what phone
>> numbers mean in the Australian context.
>>
>> Historically we’ve had numbers that are geo based for landlines (02, 03,
>> 08 etc) and other numbers that delineate the cost to call (eg. 04 for
>> mobile, 13/18 for fixed cost non-geo or free, 1900 for “premium” etc). But
>> we’re now looking to a future where a range of factors are meaning that the
>> differentiation is less meaningful.
>>
>> A _lot_ of people are moving, because of generation change, NBN, etc to
>> only have a mobile number. Many people are on mobile or “fixed line” plans
>> where calls are all-inclusive so knowing the cost of a call from the phone
>> number is pretty much irrelevant. My parents and some of my grandparents
>> (yes I still have them) basically use mobile only and don’t answer home
>> phones *because* of the scams on home phones!  I don’t actually know what
>> my brothers and sisters home phone numbers are.
>>
>> There’s still a historic “interconnect” charging model/market between
>> telcos that I suspect is just as painful as when I last looked at it.
>>
>> What is the future for voice and calls in Australia? Do geo-numbers make
>> sense? Why shouldn’t I be able to have an 08   number as my mobile
>> number? (I know the back-end charging/porting reasons, but we’re looking
>> forward not backward here).
>>
>> Even calling internationally - voice calls now between countries are
>> generally so awful to use (delay, crappy audio etc) that even for business
>> calls I use things like Facetime/Facebook/WhatsApp/Hangout calls where the
>> voice is so good and low delay I can’t tell where the other person is from.
>>
>> I suspect nothing much will change and that’s primarily because the major
>> telcos with mobile networks want to continue to make money out of charging
>> each other for calls, but, even that I suspect will all fade away.
>>
>> We do get attached to phone numbers - my Australian mobile is one from
>> the dawn of GSM in Australia and I’ve had it now for more than 20 years and
>> even though I don’t live in Australia at the moment I keep it running on a
>> long life prepaid! So, don’t think I lack sentiment here.
>>
>> MMC
>>
>> ___
>> AusNOG mailing list
>> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Mark L. Tees
> ___
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>
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Re: [AusNOG] Phone Numbers in Australia

[Mark Tees]

I am kind of wondering if we can get to a stage of complete number
virtualisation. Mainly so when I’m overseas I can more easily direct actual
inbound SMS how I see fit. Have also had the same number for almost 10
years.  At present I hook up an Android phone and send/receive SMS via
email or forwarding with normal call diversion.

Ideally, I could port my number to a virtual mobile service and receive
calls via SIP of whatever then receive SMS via API calls or email.

>From the carrier VOIP side it would be awesome if we could receive SMS in a
similar fashion as SIP.


On Tue, 1 May 2018 at 07:36, Matthew Moyle-Croft  wrote:

> Previous thread about fake caller ID made me think about what phone
> numbers mean in the Australian context.
>
> Historically we’ve had numbers that are geo based for landlines (02, 03,
> 08 etc) and other numbers that delineate the cost to call (eg. 04 for
> mobile, 13/18 for fixed cost non-geo or free, 1900 for “premium” etc). But
> we’re now looking to a future where a range of factors are meaning that the
> differentiation is less meaningful.
>
> A _lot_ of people are moving, because of generation change, NBN, etc to
> only have a mobile number. Many people are on mobile or “fixed line” plans
> where calls are all-inclusive so knowing the cost of a call from the phone
> number is pretty much irrelevant. My parents and some of my grandparents
> (yes I still have them) basically use mobile only and don’t answer home
> phones *because* of the scams on home phones!  I don’t actually know what
> my brothers and sisters home phone numbers are.
>
> There’s still a historic “interconnect” charging model/market between
> telcos that I suspect is just as painful as when I last looked at it.
>
> What is the future for voice and calls in Australia? Do geo-numbers make
> sense? Why shouldn’t I be able to have an 08   number as my mobile
> number? (I know the back-end charging/porting reasons, but we’re looking
> forward not backward here).
>
> Even calling internationally - voice calls now between countries are
> generally so awful to use (delay, crappy audio etc) that even for business
> calls I use things like Facetime/Facebook/WhatsApp/Hangout calls where the
> voice is so good and low delay I can’t tell where the other person is from.
>
> I suspect nothing much will change and that’s primarily because the major
> telcos with mobile networks want to continue to make money out of charging
> each other for calls, but, even that I suspect will all fade away.
>
> We do get attached to phone numbers - my Australian mobile is one from the
> dawn of GSM in Australia and I’ve had it now for more than 20 years and
> even though I don’t live in Australia at the moment I keep it running on a
> long life prepaid! So, don’t think I lack sentiment here.
>
> MMC
>
> ___
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
-- 
Regards,

Mark L. Tees
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