Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager]
Hello people, My email may be asynchronous but i barely could follow this thread, yet i wanted to say a few words on it since i fell on an interesting bug today on launchpad. My understanding of indicator-applet is that it is designed for apps-to-user communication and apparently only used by social apps (email, IM, and maybe soon some websites with Yim ?). Thus, i believe update-manager should not use it at all, for the sake of consistency. Updater-notifier uses an icon (orange/red) to notify the user of the presence of updates. That's personally how i notice available updates, and, after a few weeks of usage, i noticed it became natural to watch after it for my family members (even if they still do their updates on a weekly basis). Notifications are, in my understanding, devoted to system-to-user communication (power management, critical bugs on the desktop, etc) and to synchronous app-to-user communication (currently played song, for instance). I think update-notifier should shamelessly use it, and even with critical notifications for notifying the availability of security updates. One notification for saying updates available (one max / session), and another to say it's finished, that seems ok to me. Now, we have two coherent ways of notifying the user about these important notifications. It's enough and we shouldn't disturb them more than that, which brings me to this LP bug : https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/200127 I added it to one hundred paper cuts because it's an old, easy-to-fix, and critical usability bug. Currently, update-manager windows keep popping-up when you're working on disturbing you, while they should pop-up unfocused (or not popup at all, and the information be integrated in the original u-m window, aswell as the tray icon's bubble kept consistant) and let you breathe and keep working (or not working :p) on your desktop. That was my 2 cents. Have a nice day, SD. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager]
On 16/06/2009 Ryan Prior wrote: I don't see the popups as intrusive. No information is being sent outside the computer. A window is being opened so that you see it, because it very important and it absolutely needs your attention. It's not as though some foreign entity is intruding upon your computer, and it's not as though it interrupts whatever work you're doing. Can the folks who find this pop-under to be very intrusive better explain precisely what they find intrusive about it? Also, is this in violation of the Gnome HIG? An unrequested popup, and a pop-under in particular, is traditionally considered something that must be fake, because in the www it is used as a spam and fraud device. This is why we have a popup blocker in firefox. Apart from this, a pop-up is in the middle of alt+tab order, and it is very unprofessional if it pops up while my boss is looking at my pc to see my work. Not that I could not live with it *if* it was absolutely disabled when I am busy in FUSA. But still I think that a different way to notify. Even a non-disappearing, dismissable notification, which could then have actions because nobody has to run to select those, would be better than the pop-under because it is very small and does not go to the window list. Vincenzo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 357150] Re: Regression vs notification-daemon: Notify-osd doesn't deal with a large number of notifications well
Given that there is another dup of the long queue issue, I'm cc'ing the Ayatana list. Ayatana team, for reference: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/357150 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/334809 MPT, can you point to a spec for the 9.10 queue throttling behaviour, that captures the ideas around discarding notifications? Also, do we have a list of applications which can generate 10's of notifications (like a notification for every new message in the inbox when you start up mail) that we can fix (to send a summary message in those cases)? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.comwrote: On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:40:12 +0530 mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: ... It is accepted that the icon is NOT very useful and also ignored ... I have to disagree. This has been repeatedly asserted, but I don't recall any actual studies that support this. This change has been overwhelmingly negatively received by all classes of user. My own view is that the old method was quite reasonably discoverable for users that cared about updates and that being more obvious isn't going to cause signficant numbers of users that don't care to suddenly start doing so. I think mostly this change is annoying both groups. I believe the current efforts try to solve the wrong problem. I think it would be a better use of this mental energy trying to figure out how to get more users to care about updates. I've been stunned to be talking to people who said they didn't care if their computers were part of a botnet because they didn't keep any private information on their computers. Trying to find a way to be sufficiently obtrusive to make users care about something they don't really care about isn't, in my opinion, a recipe for success. What about trying to educate people about other reasons to install updates. For example, it's worth pointing out that updates often contain bug fixes. Natan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information
Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: mac_v, You raised very interesting point that the possibility of applications asking the user for root access without proving themselves as real system applications is a security risk. However I do not think the orage icon can solve this problem. It is true that a malicious application can fake the update-manager window. But a malicious application can also fake the orange icon or whatever notification approach we choose, as you are assuming that the virus is already running application under user privileges. I did not suggest bringing back the icon , you are probably have me confused with some other member. but i'm for a *better interactive notification system* , in addition to notify-osd , *which is accessed ONLY by limited system process* . This way fake notifications dont arise either. cheers, mac_v ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
Forwarding to the list. -- Forwarded message -- From: Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com Date: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager]) To: Natan Yellin aan...@gmail.com On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Natan Yellin aan...@gmail.com wrote: What about trying to educate people about other reasons to install updates. For example, it's worth pointing out that updates often contain bug fixes. This relates to an idea I had at UDS about ubuntu-bug, it would be really sweet if we could tie ubuntu-bug and update-manager together, so what when a bug you're subscribed to is fixed in an update, you get some kind of feedback from update-manager. -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information
On 16/06/2009 Natan Yellin wrote: A few websites use a similar trick and display a custom image which the user chooses. I think it's a bit of a better solution than using a phrase, because people are more likely to notice if it changes. Hmm, if I enter fatti non fummo a viver come bruti and you (the malicious program) have no idea of what it could be, sure I notice if it changes. The problem with an image is that it would make the installation process much less comfortable if you want to find your own image but I am not totally against it. You can even have both. Vincenzo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information
Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: It's not offtopic in my opinion as exactly this machinery could be used in the infamous popup to address the concern of many, but can be moved elsewhere or dropped if it has obvious flaws that I don't see. Oh ! no! Pls not in the pop-up... pop-up idea should be re-done! It would be logical to use this in the modal window that asks for the password... When it is in the modal window ,the user will recognize the difference while entering the password. Cheers, mac_v ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator
I would definitely enjoy having that accessible as a user...while things are far from bad the way they are in terms of hardware/system...there are often those times I have to pause and remember the Gnome, way of getting to that particular menu or function... Would love to see what you have in mind in terms of design! -Anthony On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:21 AM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys think? If there's support for the idea, we could do a round of design work and present it here for more detailed discussion. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
Alex Launi wrote: David Siegel also had a really great idea for making updates fun (and it also solves the issue of how to handle updates- notification icon or pop-under window) at the install updates on shutdown discussion. Let me preface this with these are his ideas and not mine, I think they're great and he deserves the credit. His idea was to do updates at login. We could do the checking while you're using, and then if we find them on reboot show them in gdm with a nice present icon, like we're giving you a gift. This way if an update requires a restart, you don't have to save your state, restart, blah blah blah and interrupt your entire workflow, you haven't started yet. It might not be possible now, but when the clutter gdm finally lands we could do it really beautifully. Interesting, but don't forget the do the checking while you're using step will need to actually download the updated packages, because when you reach gdm network may not be up (think laptop with crypted wifi). A problem with this solution though, is that it does not help people who mostly suspend/resume their machine. We could also present this update icon at resume stage, on the lock screen, but again this won't help people who suspend/resume without locking the machine (for example, soho desktop users). Aurélien ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
Il giorno mar, 16/06/2009 alle 17.17 +0200, Martín Soto ha scritto: Would you mind showing us some evidence of said overwhelmingly negatively reaction? From what I've seen on the mailing lists so far, those complaining about the update pop-under mostly belong to a small, yet very vocal group of power users. Please, let's keep the this is something that only power user like/dislike old argument out of this discussion. I see this is not your intention, but as we are all power users this is an effective dialectic technique to lower the value of our observations. Also, I already said this elsewhere. Either design a poll, or don't say that a group of persons is small. You don't have a scale for comparison. The whole launchpad can be considered a small group of users. Ubuntu developers are a small group of users. If you think you didn't see the numbers yet and want people to start an advertising campaign to send angry users that may not have the will to report the bug here, I can do that (yes it's a joke). Let me also remark that the bug had some 20 duplicates. These are persons that _did not know_ the problem before and went to report. Hence they don't belong to a small group as you said. I am one of these. Now let's get to the point of which evidence we have that people do not like popups in general. For update-notification, if you want evidence, again, create a poll and find a way to gather the opinion of users. I won't do that because I already have good experience. The typical computer user I saw in my life tend to close immediately any popup without reading it. Especially if it's not a good moment to do what is requested. This is my experience, I teached ubuntu to many, and I taught courses at university to non-computer scientists, (I was forced at the time to use windows, and here I could have a good sample of behaviours w.r.t. popups) but I am not an usability expert. If you accept my past experience as an example, my impression is that if a non-power-user sees a popup requesting to do an action and it's not the right moment, she closes the popup. After a while, closing the popup becomes an habit. And it's never used again, it's just considered an annoyance. If doing upgrades was a do it in 5 seconds, and be sure not to have consequences kind of thing, probably users would learn to just click ok instead of closing the window. But it's not the case. Power users are often adamant about having absolute control over their computers, This is NOT the case in the problem we are talking about. We want a cleaner, less disturbing system. We are not asking for esotheric feature or millimetric customization. I even reject the solution of editing the appropriate gconf key quite because, even if I know how to customize my system down to the bare hardware, I _prefer_ to use the standard settings of ubuntu. Sometimes I don't even change my background for a long time after a new installation. so it is no surprise that some of them find it very irritating when their computers open windows without their explicit consent. I'm not sure, however, that this is the case for most users (myself included, and I'm a power user, for sure) So you are a power user too, you don't feel irritated by the pop-up, and this proves what? . I would expect most people to just confirm the updates and keep going with their lives Are you saying that you really NEVER experienced an upgrade that creates a problem? I use my computer to work. Sometimes I just can't afford the risk that the thing breaks, even in minor aspects. E.g. when I am preparing a presentation or I am under a deadline. For this reasons the popup cannot be that frequent, it'd be annoying to people like me. But this creates a time-window for worms. If any. , but, as I said, if you have clear evidence that contradicts my expectation, I'll be glad to see it. Clear evidence will be obtained only when studies will be published. All of this is based on a study which has not been published. I do not work in usability and do not have the resources to do a test, but if you find any, and you need some cooperation, I'll be glad to help designing some experiments. Vincenzo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:09:24 +0200 Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... blur and wiggle dream sequence style scene change It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are available, for you! You boot up and arrive at the slick new GDM. But what's this message? New updates available! Click here to install Some days you're very busy, and need your computer right away so you chose to ignore them and log right in. That's ok, they'll be available when you're ready. Update Manager shouldn't go away, you should be able to launch it yourself manually if you want to update once you've logged in and found out that DST was this weekend and you've got some extra time. But today you decide to click. The interface changes nicely into a screen displaying what updates are available, and asking for your username and password to authorize install / log in. If you're not an administrator we will politely tell you that you can't perform an upgrade, and that you should let your administrator know that your system needs some updates. At this point we just finish the login, since you just gave us your info. Awesome. Now let's say you are an admin, this update requires no reboot so we log you right in, and when the desktop is loaded there is already a dialog waiting giving you the progress of your update. You may continue working, you weren't cost much time, and your system is fully secure because you're up to date. But next time there might be a kernel upgrade, which will require a restart. In this case we should ask the user what they'd like to do. In some cases the estimated time to finish (which we will show) may only be 2 minutes, and we can afford that so we just halt the login and modally install the upgrades, or we allow them to say ok i recognize that this update will need a restart to apply, but I need my computer- so lets continue like there are no updates that require a reboot, and I will reboot when I'm ready. blur and wiggle dream sequence end style change Awesome, right? What about those who use an autologin? They will never see those gdm screens. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
...This was hilarious, sexy librarians and all... Me personally, I don't have a *huge *issue presenting updates at the beginning of a log-in sequence. As a user, you know they are there, and you either ignore or proceed. I can't help but think though, that when I login to my desktop normally, the Update Manager usually shows up within 2-5 minutes with updates, and when it does- I cringe at the thought of having to reboot. Now, would those updates have made me cringe less if I haven't already opened Firefox, Evolution, and a track to listen to? Probably... But, it still is something different than other OS' default behavior (Not a bad thing, most updates systems already stink). I guess I relate it most to the example of an avid user of Firefox plugins. I hate when I open my browser and those updates are there, I usually ignore them because I want into my Gmail, or whatever the case may be. It is a different way to look at updates, however, and not a bad idea at that... -Anthony On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... blur and wiggle dream sequence style scene change It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are available, for you! You boot up and arrive at the slick new GDM. But what's this message? New updates available! Click here to install Some days you're very busy, and need your computer right away so you chose to ignore them and log right in. That's ok, they'll be available when you're ready. Update Manager shouldn't go away, you should be able to launch it yourself manually if you want to update once you've logged in and found out that DST was this weekend and you've got some extra time. But today you decide to click. The interface changes nicely into a screen displaying what updates are available, and asking for your username and password to authorize install / log in. If you're not an administrator we will politely tell you that you can't perform an upgrade, and that you should let your administrator know that your system needs some updates. At this point we just finish the login, since you just gave us your info. Awesome. Now let's say you are an admin, this update requires no reboot so we log you right in, and when the desktop is loaded there is already a dialog waiting giving you the progress of your update. You may continue working, you weren't cost much time, and your system is fully secure because you're up to date. But next time there might be a kernel upgrade, which will require a restart. In this case we should ask the user what they'd like to do. In some cases the estimated time to finish (which we will show) may only be 2 minutes, and we can afford that so we just halt the login and modally install the upgrades, or we allow them to say ok i recognize that this update will need a restart to apply, but I need my computer- so lets continue like there are no updates that require a reboot, and I will reboot when I'm ready. blur and wiggle dream sequence end style change Awesome, right? -- --Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Charlie Kravetz c...@teamcharliesangels.com wrote: What about those who use an autologin? They will never see those gdm screens. Like I said, update-manager doesn't go away. It just gets more or less deprecated for most users. For this small subset we just fallback to current behaviour. -- --Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
Would you mind showing us some evidence of said overwhelmingly negatively reaction? From what I've seen on the mailing lists so far, those complaining about the update pop-under mostly belong to a small, yet very vocal group of power users. Are you joking ? Count the unique users on this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/332945?comments=all and the number of duplicated bug. Then compare with what an average a bug gets. Stefano ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
Awesome, right? Not sure about what your whole reply meant. I think that notifying on startup has many disadvantage and it's not applicable in some cases (kernel upgrades, autologin). It's not wonder windows why asks for it at the shutdown. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this one. Have at it. === On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: I had meant to chat with Martin Pitt after his plenary, but never managed to catch up with him. I forgot about it until I was going through my notebook the other day. It would be really great if when update-manager presented itself, some bugs (ones that you reported/subscribed to on LP) had a nice messsage that made you really excited to update because your bug was fixed! Make updates fun! David Siegel also had a really great idea for making updates fun (and it also solves the issue of how to handle updates- notification icon or pop-under window) at the install updates on shutdown discussion. Let me preface this with these are his ideas and not mine, I think they're great and he deserves the credit. His idea was to do updates at login. We could do the checking while you're using, and then if we find them on reboot show them in gdm with a nice present icon, like we're giving you a gift. This way if an update requires a restart, you don't have to save your state, restart, blah blah blah and interrupt your entire workflow, you haven't started yet. It might not be possible now, but when the clutter gdm finally lands we could do it really beautifully. -- -- Alex Launi On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. When you turn on the pc it's because you needed. Windows shows the update notification on shutdown, which makes much more sense (and if you just installed some reboot requiring update, even more). I wouldn't oppose to a well done, good designed entry on shutdown: Updates available ! Keeping your system up to date is important. [x] Install the updates before logging out. [ Open the update manager ] - Stefano On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:09 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone tac...@gmail.com wrote: Good intent, bad idea. I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... blur and wiggle dream sequence style scene change It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are available, for you! You boot up and arrive at the slick new GDM. But what's this message? New updates available! Click here to install Some days you're very busy, and need your computer right away so you chose to ignore them and log right in. That's ok, they'll be available when you're ready. Update Manager shouldn't go away, you should be able to launch it yourself manually if you want to update once you've logged in and found out that DST was this weekend and you've got some extra time. But today you decide to click. The interface changes nicely into a screen displaying what updates are available, and asking for your username and password to authorize install / log in. If you're not an administrator we will politely tell you that you can't perform an upgrade, and that you should let your administrator know that your system needs some updates. At this point we just finish the login, since you just gave us your info. Awesome. Now let's say you are an admin, this update requires no reboot so we log you right in, and when the desktop is loaded there is already a dialog waiting giving you the progress of your update. You may continue working, you weren't cost much time, and your system is fully secure because you're up to date. But next time there might be a kernel upgrade, which will require a restart. In this case we should ask the user what they'd like to do. In some cases the estimated time to finish (which we will show) may only be 2 minutes, and we can afford that so we just halt the login and modally install the upgrades, or we allow them to say ok i recognize that this update will need a restart to apply, but I need my computer- so lets continue like there are no updates that require a reboot, and I will reboot when I'm ready. blur and wiggle dream sequence end style change Awesome, right? -- --Alex Launi On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Charlie Kravetz c...@teamcharliesangels.com wrote: What about those who use an autologin? They will never see those gdm screens. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:17 PM, ajmctaggart ajmctagg...@gmail.com wrote: ...This was hilarious, sexy librarians and all... Me
Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator
Em Ter, 2009-06-16 às 15:48 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia escreveu: On 16/06/2009 Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys think? If there's support for the idea, we could do a round of design work and present it here for more detailed discussion. Do you mean like the messaging indicator but for system messages? If so, would it also handle update-manager interactions? I think this has been proposed by many both here and on the u-m bug so there should be wide consensus. I'd love it. +1 here. Finally, I would also like to emphasize the fact the the vocal minority of power users that are complaining about the new update-notifier behavior would be happy enough if there was as *supported* way to fall back to the old behavior (or to adopt the new behavior suggested in my first email). The main problem for us, pop-under haters, is that there is no *supported* way to avoid it but to turn off update-notifier entirely. Finally, I would like to stress that the new update-manager introduced what I think is a paper cut. Here is what usually happened to me before I reverted update-manager back to the old behavior using the unsupported option: I see the pop-under in the middle of my work, decide to close the update-manager to keep on working (and to get rid of the update-manager application in my alt-tab list). Update manager closes and only comes back many days later. There is no trace left in that session that I have updates available. To me this is a paper cut, and a dangerous one, as I would be updating my machine less often. A much better approach was already suggested in this thread. Update-notifier should display a permanent notification (in the notification panel or in the indicator-applet or in the new system indicator, or wherever people think is appropriate, but with a clear visible sign) to remember me that the updates are available if the user closes update-manager without upgrading. Paulo. Obs: Sincerely, it is easy enough for me to turn off update-manager completely and still get permanent notifications, a simple scripts that calls apt-get update followed by a email saying that updates are available would do. However I do care about other users that can not code that easily. I do think that the new behavior is much worse than the old one and can in many cases lead to fewer updates not more. -- Paulo José da Silva e Silva Professor Associado, Dep. de Ciência da Computação (Associate Professor, Computer Science Dept.) Universidade de São Paulo - Brazil e-mail: pjssi...@ime.usp.br Web: http://www.ime.usp.br/~pjssilva Teoria é o que não entendemos o (Theory is something we don't) suficiente para chamar de prática. (understand well enough to call practice) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
Alex Launi wrote: I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... blur and wiggle dream sequence end style change The whole dream assumes that the downloads are already downloaded/quickly downloaded... Consider users with slow connections, so the downloads take time to be initially downloaded download is larger the longer the wait time! Downloads take time, also when the user is connected to via a secure *wireless connections the connection is established ONLY after login* , which allows the passkey use! cheers, mac_v ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
2009/6/16 Vincenzo Ciancia cian...@di.unipi.it Please, let's keep the this is something that only power user like/dislike old argument out of this discussion. I see this is not your intention, but as we are all power users this is an effective dialectic technique to lower the value of our observations. I wouldn't want to lower the value of any observations you've made, as long as these are observations about other people's behavior and not about your own behavior, tastes or preferences. This is the reason why I was asking Scott to produce some explicit evidence, because, so far, I have the impression he's mostly speaking based on his own feelings. I may be wrong about this, of course. Also, I already said this elsewhere. Either design a poll, or don't say that a group of persons is small. You don't have a scale for comparison. The whole launchpad can be considered a small group of users. Ubuntu developers are a small group of users. If you think you didn't see the numbers yet and want people to start an advertising campaign to send angry users that may not have the will to report the bug here, I can do that (yes it's a joke). Let me also remark that the bug had some 20 duplicates. These are persons that _did not know_ the problem before and went to report. Hence they don't belong to a small group as you said. I am one of these. I believe you that you and Scott are not the only guys who hate this feature. Still, the problem with saying there are 20 people in Launchpad who hate it too is that all of you conform a self-selected sample. If you hate the feature, you report it as a bug in Launchpad or get noisy about it in the mailing lists. If, on the other hand, you like the feature, or, at least, don't have a problem with it, you normally don't write to the mailing list just to praise it. Do you write to the mailing list every time you like something about Ubuntu? Now let's get to the point of which evidence we have that people do not like popups in general. For update-notification, if you want evidence, again, create a poll and find a way to gather the opinion of users. I won't do that because I already have good experience. The risk of such a poll is the same: Self selection. Obviously, people are much more likely to participate if the are bothered by the feature, which will immediately introduce a strong bias. Although I'm a scientist, I'm not an expert in this kind of research, so I guess I'll ask my poll-designing colleagues here at work what they would do in such a situation and see if they have a better answer. The typical computer user I saw in my life tend to close immediately any popup without reading it. Especially if it's not a good moment to do what is requested. This is my experience, I teached ubuntu to many, and I taught courses at university to non-computer scientists, (I was forced at the time to use windows, and here I could have a good sample of behaviours w.r.t. popups) but I am not an usability expert. If you accept my past experience as an example, my impression is that if a non-power-user sees a popup requesting to do an action and it's not the right moment, she closes the popup. After a while, closing the popup becomes an habit. And it's never used again, it's just considered an annoyance. If doing upgrades was a do it in 5 seconds, and be sure not to have consequences kind of thing, probably users would learn to just click ok instead of closing the window. But it's not the case. You are speaking about pop-ups here, but the update notifier is rather a pop-under. It remains discretely behind other windows until you select it. The only way it can be intrusive, as you already pointed out, is by getting in your way when you're trying to switch windows with Alt+Tab. In any case, I agree with you that we don't know if the new solution is any more or less effective than the previous solution. Power users are often adamant about having absolute control over their computers, This is NOT the case in the problem we are talking about. We want a cleaner, less disturbing system. We are not asking for esotheric feature or millimetric customization. I even reject the solution of editing the appropriate gconf key quite because, even if I know how to customize my system down to the bare hardware, I _prefer_ to use the standard settings of ubuntu. Sometimes I don't even change my background for a long time after a new installation. Achieving a less disturbing system is, of course, a valuable goal. The problem here is that if your system is, for example, running an insecure network stack or a file system module that may destroy all of your data, you'd rather be disturbed about it. My hunch is that the pop-under will be more effective at calling most people's attention in such a case, but, of course, I don't have hard data to prove it. so it is no surprise that some of them find it very irritating when their computers open windows without
Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:31:54 +0200 Martín Soto dons...@gmail.com wrote: This is the reason why I was asking Scott to produce some explicit evidence, because, so far, I have the impression he's mostly speaking based on his own feelings. I may be wrong about this, of course. You are. I have tried to monitor all the public feedback about this change the I could reasonably track. My impression is that outside the group of people that designed and implemented this change it has received virtually no positive feedback. This change does not directly affect me since I use Kubuntu. I was actually reporting almost entirely about my impression of feedback from people who experience this change and virtually not at all about my own experience with it. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:06 PM, mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: AFAIK Auto downloads of the updates is far worse! 1: user might be using 3G at some point where the downloads cost a lot! 2: downloads while i'm watching streaming video content would cause the lags in my videos which i would hate. Who said auto download updates? You guys put words in my mouth, I never said we should do that. If you read the scenario I presented you'll see that whether or not updates are download ahead of time is irrelevant. Also- I started a new thread of this discussion, can we please continue it there? -- --Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator
On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 14:21 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys think? If there's support for the idea, we could do a round of design work and present it here for more detailed discussion. Add usb-mount failure, usb power failure (not plugged into a powered source), usb slowed (device of version x, slowed to x-1 because of port) and no driver warning to that list. Reporting that a device has been plugged in is good but the displayable information about these devices is sometimes poor. Look at some of the names and lack of icons for a lot of devices, we should want to make this look awesome and that means more user identifiable information. How to pair devices up with this information is for another mailing list I think. Regards, MArtin ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])
We should definitely consider as many update scenarios as possible in order to find the one that users will prefer. We are very quick to start implementing updates and shut down without considering something radically different because many of us have experiences updates at shutdown when using Windows. Neither solution is perfect, both have their merits, and this is the perfect place to discuss them. May I ask which merits may the Updates-at-login-time have ? It's not that Windows is perfect, but some times there's a rationale behind the choices done by it. (and, btw, I hated the way Windows tried to trick you into upgrading at shutdown) The drawbacks of updates in GDM are many: - some people auto login, they won't see anything (not big issue, but also not nice) - perceived bigger lag between power on and operability (due to the need to perform a choice) - being reminded to reboot right after having just powered on is not nice. - increased delta with Gnome and possible loss of compatibility with existing GDM themes - increases the workload startup (while the updates are being performed), in a timeframe when there's already load (as the gnome desktop is loading, and the first applications you'll launch will load). I don't think we really need to think different at all costs. Stefano ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
