Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 28/06/10 03:34, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Allan Caeg  > wrote:
>
> Will indicator-network feel integrated with Indicator Applet and
> Indicator Session? If indicator-network is right beside Indicator
> Applet, will it follow that mouse hover menu activation will jump
> between the two panel applets?
>
> As for the clock applet, does anyone here know if it will work the
> same way as indicator-network?
>
>
> That is the design intent, yes.
>

If you are running only Ayatana indicators, then yes you will be able to
have a "menu only" experience end-to-end. For 10.10 that will mean using
connection manager, which will still have rough edges, and the clock
indicator, which is relatively simplistic. But it will still feel
tighter and more unified than a hodge-podge of panel applets, so that's
how I'll be using it :-)

Mark


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Re: [Ayatana] Fullscreen Mode for all applications

[Scott Kitterman]

On Sunday, June 27, 2010 10:09:09 pm Frederik Nnaji wrote:
> The best way to present visual content is to use the entire screen for it.
> Imagine you would like to look at a single item, wouldn't the best way to
> look at it be to blank out every other information on the screen in favour
> of visual focus onto this one item?
> 
> Fullscreen does exactly that.
> 
> Gnome Terminal knows Fullscreen mode (F11), Open Office Writer knows F11,
> Gedit knows F11, Epiphany has rudimentary support, Firefox, , what have
> you..
> 
> Examples for apps that do not comply with this unspoken rule are:
> Nautilus
> Evolution
> Transmission
> Contact List
> 
> Fortunately, Compiz has "window rules" which can allow for toggling of
> fullscreen mode for any app.
> Unfortunately, this feature is buggy, as gnome-panel will sometimes cover a
> fullscreen app, instead of disappearing behind it or autohiding.
> 
> UNR used Maximus by default already in order to utilize the display screen
> real estate better..
> 
> how would you like a consistent DE with F11 to send any window that is not
> a yes/no dialog into fullscreen?

For netbooks I think it's great.   Plasma Netbook (which is the workspace 
shell we use in Kubuntu Netbook Remix) comes with a Kwin windeco that handles 
this very nicely.

Scott K

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Re: [Ayatana] Fullscreen Mode for all applications

[Tyler Brainerd]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Frederik Nnaji wrote:

> The best way to present visual content is to use the entire screen for it.
> Imagine you would like to look at a single item, wouldn't the best way to
> look at it be to blank out every other information on the screen in favour
> of visual focus onto this one item?
>
> Fullscreen does exactly that.
>
> Gnome Terminal knows Fullscreen mode (F11), Open Office Writer knows F11,
> Gedit knows F11, Epiphany has rudimentary support, Firefox, , what have
> you..
>
> Examples for apps that do not comply with this unspoken rule are:
> Nautilus
> Evolution
> Transmission
> Contact List
>
> Fortunately, Compiz has "window rules" which can allow for toggling of
> fullscreen mode for any app.
> Unfortunately, this feature is buggy, as gnome-panel will sometimes cover a
> fullscreen app, instead of disappearing behind it or autohiding.
>
> UNR used Maximus by default already in order to utilize the display screen
> real estate better..
>
> how would you like a consistent DE with F11 to send any window that is not
> a yes/no dialog into fullscreen?
>
> Yes for consistency, but I'm not sure how needed this is. I for one would
never have a need to have transmission or nautilus fullscreen, or the
contact list. These would all be better off with a fixed width and getting
maximized vertically.

But that is a different discussion. :P

Consistency would be good. I can't think of any reason why not to use F11 as
a system wide fullscreen key, other then many laptops currently shipping use
F11's default behavior as pause/play media keys, with F11 hidden behind fn.




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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

[Tyler Brainerd]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Allan Caeg  wrote:

> Will indicator-network feel integrated with Indicator Applet and Indicator
> Session? If indicator-network is right beside Indicator Applet, will it
> follow that mouse hover menu activation will jump between the two panel
> applets?
>
> As for the clock applet, does anyone here know if it will work the same way
> as indicator-network?
>

That is the design intent, yes.





> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
>>
>> You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
>> too, it just won't be the default in 10.10. But if you drop NM manually
>> in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
>> (depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
>> we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
>> only indicators in 10.10 desktop).
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Allan
> http://live.gnome.org/AllanCaeg
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

[Allan Caeg]

Will indicator-network feel integrated with Indicator Applet and Indicator
Session? If indicator-network is right beside Indicator Applet, will it
follow that mouse hover menu activation will jump between the two panel
applets?

As for the clock applet, does anyone here know if it will work the same way
as indicator-network?

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote:
>
> You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
> too, it just won't be the default in 10.10. But if you drop NM manually
> in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
> (depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
> we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
> only indicators in 10.10 desktop).
>
> Mark
>
>


-- 
Regards,
Allan
http://live.gnome.org/AllanCaeg
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Re: [Ayatana] How do I know when I'm connected to the network successfully?

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 09:19, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> Scott Ritchie wrote on 03/05/10 23:43:
> >...
> > In short, the process of connecting to the internet for the very first
> > time did not work very well, as the indicator in its current form is
> > simply failing to indicate what we needed to know.
> >...
>
> Thanks for this report. I'll tackle this issue when designing the new
> networking interface. 
>
> Cheers
> - --
> Matthew Paul Thomas
> http://mpt.net.nz/


I didn't find anything of the sort in the Spec when i last looked, is it
still on the list?
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[Ayatana] Fullscreen Mode for all applications

[Frederik Nnaji]

The best way to present visual content is to use the entire screen for it.
Imagine you would like to look at a single item, wouldn't the best way to
look at it be to blank out every other information on the screen in favour
of visual focus onto this one item?

Fullscreen does exactly that.

Gnome Terminal knows Fullscreen mode (F11), Open Office Writer knows F11,
Gedit knows F11, Epiphany has rudimentary support, Firefox, , what have
you..

Examples for apps that do not comply with this unspoken rule are:
Nautilus
Evolution
Transmission
Contact List

Fortunately, Compiz has "window rules" which can allow for toggling of
fullscreen mode for any app.
Unfortunately, this feature is buggy, as gnome-panel will sometimes cover a
fullscreen app, instead of disappearing behind it or autohiding.

UNR used Maximus by default already in order to utilize the display screen
real estate better..

how would you like a consistent DE with F11 to send any window that is not a
yes/no dialog into fullscreen?
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Re: [Ayatana] WWW Connection State Awareness

[Martin Owens]

On Mon, 2010-06-28 at 02:38 +0200, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
> Hello MPT, Hi everyone..
> 
> I'd like to pick this topic up, since it is important and it looks
> like it's currently sleeping.
> 
> 
> How do i know if i am connected to the internet successfully?
> Is there an indicator to inform me about that particular state?
> Obviously not, with all the stuff i have up there, i have no secure
> way of knowing if i'm "online" or not.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 18:58, Matthew Paul Thomas 
> wrote:
> [...] But as of 10.04, this button is
> shown only if both (a) the installer knows of a critical issue
> about
> installation in particular and (b) there is an Internet
> connection.
> Release notes are not shown for upgrades at all.
> 
> 
> How does the installer know whether there is an internet connection?
> Couldn't we use that information to tell an indicator to inform the
> user about that state?

I thought we'd covered this a few times before:

https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg01693.html

Of course if we're ditching NM for conman then I guess just making sure
that we have our www checks and state values in there fromt he start
would help with this.

Martin,



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Re: [Ayatana] File transfer dialog behaviour

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 13:45, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 17:04, Matthew Paul Thomas  > > wrote:
> >>
> >> To avoid that kind of confusion, a progress window -- a window that
> >> embodies a task the computer is completing, and closes itself when
> >> done - -- should not have a close button in its title bar at all.
> >
> > thank you. ditch the title bar, like Policykit does, is my suggestion.
>
> gksu does. PolicyKit, fortunately, does not.
>

oops :P



> A progress window should still be minimizable.
>

does a window really need a title bar in order to be minimizable?
That's what i'm trying to point at..

apart from that, i believe progress windows should be hide-able.
You and somebody else reasoned about a progress indicator, which would show
the states of download and disk-write processes, daniel planas made mockups
to it also IIRC..

i see no point in minimizing a window. other than to send it to Window List,
which will hopefully be deprecated with the introduction of more symbolic
window buttons such as in the window picker, dockbarX or Ubuntu Unity to the
Desktop.
Having a Window List applet is beginning to feel reatarded to me, i would
want Ubuntu to know my display and its resolution, and to adapt its UI to
that automatically.

this would mean that it should automatically display window picker applet
instead of window list on a netbook, for example.


> >> The failure to systematically distinguish progress windows, dialogs,
> >> and other window types is a long-standing design flaw in Gnome.
> >
> > Yah,.. Many of these problems will automatically vanish with the advent
> > of CSD
> >...
>
> I don't see how CSD would improve that situation at all. Can you be more
> specific?
>

That was greatly meant as kudos for walking down that stoney path
confidently ;)
You guys deserve a lot of respect for the excellent work you are doing!

CSD is a courageos step, i'm sure it will inspire many software designers to
go fullscreen and to use transparent OSDs and alpha-enabled overlay widgets
in the horizontal center of the screen for operation, kind of VLC-like.
Placing a button near the edge of a window, as somebody said in another
thread weeks ago, is not necessarily a sign of good design.

Normally, a dialog or UI should have its main interaction happening in the
middle of the screen, preferrably right under my fingers. If that is not the
case for most of what i'm doing, i guess either i'm using the wrong OS, or
the OS i'm using is not (yet) designed for usability.
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Re: [Ayatana] Yet another discussion on window resizing - where does the problem lie?

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 14:43, Philipp Wendler wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Am 23.06.2010 09:20, schrieb Vishnoo:
>
>
>  I'v never found the need to resize firefox&  evolution [always
>> maximized] or the various prefs dialogue windows[which have the right
>> size].
>>
>
> Don't forget that there are users that do not always maximize their
> windows. This will be even more common in the future, because it doesn't
> make sense to maximize firefox etc. on a 24" screen. The only application I
> ever maximize on such a screen is Eclipse.


24" ? good point there!
on my 10" i maximize everything except for Contact List, which i expect to
be an indicator menu at some point, hopefully.


>
>
>  Rarely resize certain windows - eg: nautilus,xchat,liferea,terminal.
>> These remember the last size I had set them to and they open in the same
>> size[seems to be the case with almost every application in the default
>> install]. Which I rarely adjust more than once. The most common action I
>> do with them is maximize.
>>
>
> I often resize terminals, editors and evince and arrange them so that I can
> view all of them, for example when looking at a manual or a paper, doing
> something on the command line and writing some text about it.
>

would resizing in a grid not help with all this? It would be easier to snap
application windows to each other this way. It would also make resizing
faster in general as far as i can imagine.


> So window resizing is IMHO an important action[...]
>

+1
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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 12:25, Mark Shuttleworth  wrote:

> On 25/06/10 08:49, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
> > From what I understand, a lot of these changes (for instance, the new
> > network manager) are and will continue to show up in the Unity
> > interface, before eventually making their way over to Desktop.
>
> You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
> too, it just won't be the default in 10.10.


Yeah, Connman uses NotifyOSD much better.


> But if you drop NM manually
> in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
> (depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
> we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
> only indicators in 10.10 desktop).
>

Can't wait for the Meercat ;)
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[Ayatana] WWW Connection State Awareness

[Frederik Nnaji]

Hello MPT, Hi everyone..

I'd like to pick this topic up, since it is important and it looks like it's
currently sleeping.

How do i know if i am connected to the internet successfully?
Is there an indicator to inform me about that particular state?
Obviously not, with all the stuff i have up there, i have no secure way of
knowing if i'm "online" or not.

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 18:58, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:

> [...] But as of 10.04, this button is
> shown only if both (a) the installer knows of a critical issue about
> installation in particular and (b) there is an Internet connection.
> Release notes are not shown for upgrades at all.
>

How does the installer know whether there is an internet connection?
Couldn't we use that information to tell an indicator to inform the user
about that state?
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[Ayatana] Places > People

[Frederik Nnaji]

Dear ML,

we have been enjoying the concept of Places for quite a few Ubuntu releases
now.
So far, Places are organized in the following categories:

Personal
Devices
Network

most of the preset Places are within Personal, for example "Downloads",
"Videos", "Documents" or "Ubuntu One".
Quite obviously there is a lot to discuss here, since David Siegel
introduced us to the concept of "Applications" as a place and also suggested
metacontacts to be displayed as a Place..

i have some questions that might help kick off the discussion here:
1. Where was the spec wiki for the Applications Place again?
2. In which of the above categories would you prefer to see "Contacts"..
Personal or rather Network? or perhaps a new "People" category?
3. What do you know about the concept of "Places" and how happy are you with
the current implementation of it?

David suggested we discuss specifically the integration of metacontacts in
Unity's launcher, so please ppl, let it happen ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] Export/Import idea for Windicators

[Frederik Nnaji]

Hi David ;)

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:47, David Siegel wrote:

> On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Frederik Nnaji
>  wrote:
> > On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 14:26, Mark Shuttleworth 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> For designing indicators, ask yourself:
> >>
> >>  - what is the *status* I am conveying, and
> >>  - what options are there to manipulate that status?
> >>
> >> If you don't have both, especially the status, don't use an indicator.
> >> Use a menu.
> >
> > this hammers down heavier than a 30page spec.
> > Thanks for the clarification once again, SABDFL ;)
> >
> >> In this case, what you are describing is really just part of the File
> >> menu. So leave it there.
> >
> > To be precise, Send-to, as David Siegel would probably say, please be
> > unforgiving if am i completely wrong David?! ;)
> > We mentioned open-with in connection with GNOME Do (ingenious) and FAYT
> > already...
> >
> > I'd like me a FAYT Send-to.. dialog in Nautilus' right-click menu.
> Copy-to
> > and Move-to don't consistenly offer all Places yet, which is also a
> shame..
> > i see only Home and Desktop..
> > How about moving a file to another person? Why does it always have to be
> IP,
> > URI, folder or host?
>
> Sounds interesting :)
>
> It would be good to discuss how we could incorporate a "protocol
> independent contact list" into Unity, using the same interactions
> expressed i the Applications and Files places.
>
> David
>

if you look at http://vimeo.com/11987397 you will see "People" on the top
right as a search filter in Sezen.
AFAIK you are familiar with the outlines of SeiLo's work.. so here's the
point:
"People" aka "Contacts" are a real category after which we want data to be
organized and presented to us, they deserve to have a "Place", too, as you
already suggest, just like Sounds, Videos, Images, Documents, and Ubuntu
One. Do you have a spec that describes on how many entries Ubuntu will have
under Places in future releases?

as i have been trying to raise, libfolks [1] is underway, it will enable
metacontacts in free software. That will be our starting point for the
efficient design of a "Contacts" place, i would say.

I'm personally looking forward to the advent of a proper contact management
framework for my FLOSS desktop..
Thanks a lot for your foresight and sharing your valuable thoughts ;)

[1] http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Folks
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Re: [Ayatana] Me Menu - Review

[Frederik Nnaji]

Hi Conscious ;)

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 19:04, Conscious User  wrote:

>
> > I think an error-based-offline is an alert condition. In other words, if
> > you set yourself to be Available, and the network disconnects or the
> > server kicks you off, THEN it might be worth putting a red glow or other
> > highlight / feature to draw attention to being offline.
>
> Come to think of it, the concept of "offline" is indeed ambiguous.
>
> Without even going into the color discussion, there should be
> different icons for "offline because you want to" and "offline
> because something happened".
>

yeah, "offline" is ambiguous.
The term belongs into networking and has nothing to do with the MeMenu's
representation of Availability status.
Availability is "Available", "Busy/DoNotDisturb", "Away" and the property
"Invisible". You can be signed out or signed in, "online" and "offline" are
incorrect descriptors that originate in slang rather than proper terms for
what we are discussing. Using these words in order to describe Availability
states would inevitably lead to confusion, since they are reserved
expressions that have something to do with whether or not a system is ready
to communicate via the www.
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Re: [Ayatana] Me Menu - Review

[Conscious User]

Le dimanche 27 juin 2010 à 21:59 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth a écrit :
> On 23/06/10 14:37, Conscious User wrote:
> > If I understood correctly, James was suggesting *keeping* the panel
> > monochromatic
> > but giving colors to the MeMenu items. It makes sense: the colors in
> > this case are not
> > for calling attention, but for helping you to find the desired option
> > faster.
> 
> ... but whichever option you choose should then be reflected in the menu.

I agree, but "reflected" does not necessarily imply "perfectly copied".

The colors would be something *extra*, not a contradiction.



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Re: [Ayatana] Windicators

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 23/06/10 17:29, Sam Spilsbury wrote:
> I have been running my own builds of X11 with input redirection for
> about a year now, since your display would become largely resolution
> independent anyways and you can just zoom in to get more precision on
> those little widgets.
>   

The point is not to have to zoom in :-)



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Re: [Ayatana] Me Menu - Review

[Conscious User]

> I think an error-based-offline is an alert condition. In other words, if
> you set yourself to be Available, and the network disconnects or the
> server kicks you off, THEN it might be worth putting a red glow or other
> highlight / feature to draw attention to being offline.

Come to think of it, the concept of "offline" is indeed ambiguous.

Without even going into the color discussion, there should be
different icons for "offline because you want to" and "offline
because something happened".



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Re: [Ayatana] Me Menu - Review

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 24/06/10 13:08, James Putt wrote:
>>> So we need to think carefully about whether being offline is an "alert"
>>> condition or not. I don't really think it is.
>>>   
> Neither do I :)
>   

I think an error-based-offline is an alert condition. In other words, if
you set yourself to be Available, and the network disconnects or the
server kicks you off, THEN it might be worth putting a red glow or other
highlight / feature to draw attention to being offline.

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 25/06/10 08:49, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
> From what I understand, a lot of these changes (for instance, the new
> network manager) are and will continue to show up in the Unity
> interface, before eventually making their way over to Desktop.

You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
too, it just won't be the default in 10.10. But if you drop NM manually
in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
(depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
only indicators in 10.10 desktop).

Mark



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