Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab

[Jason Smith]

I may be walking into this one blind, but the Alt-Tab implementation in 
Unity now (the new one) supports sorting by "focus order" or by 
"launcher order" as a side effect of the fact that the icons come in 
sorted by launcher order out of the launcher model. This is of course 
not exposed as an option however is completely available in the source 
(just comment out the line that does the sort).


I am not sure if this is what is being discussed or not. I tried it out 
however and it is kind of nice.


On 07/29/2011 02:42 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:

On 28/07/11 22:20, Evan Huus wrote:

Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but
I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X'
all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the
fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?'


Then you might like the Super+n key combinations, holding down Super 
(the Windows key on many laptops) and pressing 0-9 will launch/switch 
to that launcher. Hold down Super for a while to see the actual number.


I would also be happy to try a patch which used Super+TAB the way 
we've discussed, tabbing through the launcher.


Mark

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Re: [Ayatana] the Device & User Menu concept should be Scraped

[nick rundy]

Well I apologize if I came across disrespectful. But I was active in 
discussions with the development of Gnome and the people there basically had no 
interest in how people actually use compiuters. therer were numerous voices 
complaining about the decisions Gnome ended up making. People are still 
complaining, as evident by the user list I subscribe to. I tried to approach 
the changes with an open mind but found them to be unworkable. So I feel Gnome 
deserves valid criticism on these choices. I have to assume the ubuntu 
leadership felt similarly about the choices they were making. Else they 
wouldn't have pushed forward with unity.
As for Ubuntu 10.04, I never said i don't think 10.04 needs updating. I was 
refering specifically to the Session Menu indicator. Were u referring to this? 
I think the Session Menu that exists in 10.04 is highly functional and is the 
best setup on all computer OSs for managing sessions. it's disappointing that 
it's basically getting thrown out for 11.10. This is the talk anyways. I don't 
understand the reasoning behind putting all those other items in the Session 
menu. The session menu items are being pushed aside for menu items of stuff 
that is already represented elsewhere via Status Indicators, on the Launcher, 
or is accessible via the Dash. 
Ctrl Alt Tab I know about. Are you able to get it to move from "activities" to 
the "user/session menu" by tapping the left-arrow key? I'm not. I have to tap 
the right arrow-key all day to get to it. Without going into too much detail, 
the keyboard access is a joke compared to what's available on Unity. Even  
Windows 7 has better keyboard access to the taskbar and Start menu. For example 
to shutdown in Win7 I tap Super, right-arrow, enter. I haven't figured out how 
to achieve somtheing similar in gnome-shell.

> From: jbi...@ubuntu.com
> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 18:55:35 -0400
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] the Device & User Menu concept should be Scraped
> 
> On 2 August 2011 18:09, nick rundy  wrote:
> > Why can't the Session Menu stay basically like it is in 10.04? Why does it
> > need a Bluetooth Menu--there's a Bluetooth Status Indicator isn't there?
> >  Displays. . .? Login Items. . ? Attached Devices. . ? Why is any of this
> > stuff being placed in a Status Menu indicator? Personally, I don't even
> > understand why "System Settings" is in the menu. System Settings should be
> > an item in the "Control Center." It has no purpose or place in a Status menu
> > indicator. That's what the Dash is for.
> > The WHOLE Device-Menu-and-User-Menu concept
> > (wiki:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeviceMenuAndUserMenu) should be scraped. The
> > Session-Menu as it exists in 10.04 is FANTASTIC. It doesn't need changing.
> > And everything proposed in the wiki is just useless clutter. It's all
> > represented elsewhere and doesn't fit at all as items in a Status Menu
> > indicator. Why was this concept even thought up? What was the point?
> > Unity is the reason I am still using Linux. If Gnome-Shell was the new
> > ubuntu desktop, I would without any hesitation have returned to Microsoft
> > Windows. I would try KDE and some others over time, maybe. I have already
> > tried KDE a little. But to be honest I'm sick of having to learn whole new
> > desktops. I'm pretty much done. At this point it's either Windows or Ubuntu
> > for me. I've tried Mac OS but can't stand the hardware restrictions (like
> > not having two mouse buttons, not having a backspace and a delete key,
> > etc).
> > Gnome-Shell is a disaster. I absolutely hate it. The way it wastes vertical
> > space, the retarded way it handles Restart and Shutdown (I never use suspend
> > on my desktop, yet that's my only choice in the session menu unless I hit
> > Alt). There's pathetic keyboard access to the Top Panel. The list just goes
> > on & on. Unity saved ubuntu as far as I'm concerned.
> > I just hope Unity with Gnome-3 doesn't end up ruining everything I love
> > about the gnome-2 Unity. Just hearing that there's talk of creating a popup
> > dialog in order to be able to Restart and Shutdown the system is
> > "Gnome-Shell backward thinking." I can't recall how many people I have
> > personally watched sit down in front of Gnome-Shell at my work and start
> > cursing cause they can't figure out how to shut down Gnome-Shell. The common
> > end result = a forced shutdown by holding down the power button. I sit
> > someone down in front of Ubuntu 10.04 or 11.04 and they figure out how to
> > restart or shutdown immediately. Ubuntu already has a fantastically simple
> > and understandable way to control sessions with the Session Menu. People
> > understand it. It works. Leave it alone!
> 
> Gnome Shell is also keyboard accessible; it just needs to be refined a
> bit more. Try Ctrl+Alt+Tab to move your keyboard focus to the top bar.
> I use Gnome Shell as my primary desktop these days.
> 
> There's a handy extension for Gnome Shell called
> alterna

Re: [Ayatana] the Device & User Menu concept should be Scraped

[Jeremy Bicha]

On 2 August 2011 18:09, nick rundy  wrote:
> Why can't the Session Menu stay basically like it is in 10.04? Why does it
> need a Bluetooth Menu--there's a Bluetooth Status Indicator isn't there?
>  Displays. . .? Login Items. . ? Attached Devices. . ? Why is any of this
> stuff being placed in a Status Menu indicator? Personally, I don't even
> understand why "System Settings" is in the menu. System Settings should be
> an item in the "Control Center." It has no purpose or place in a Status menu
> indicator. That's what the Dash is for.
> The WHOLE Device-Menu-and-User-Menu concept
> (wiki:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeviceMenuAndUserMenu) should be scraped. The
> Session-Menu as it exists in 10.04 is FANTASTIC. It doesn't need changing.
> And everything proposed in the wiki is just useless clutter. It's all
> represented elsewhere and doesn't fit at all as items in a Status Menu
> indicator. Why was this concept even thought up? What was the point?
> Unity is the reason I am still using Linux. If Gnome-Shell was the new
> ubuntu desktop, I would without any hesitation have returned to Microsoft
> Windows. I would try KDE and some others over time, maybe. I have already
> tried KDE a little. But to be honest I'm sick of having to learn whole new
> desktops. I'm pretty much done. At this point it's either Windows or Ubuntu
> for me. I've tried Mac OS but can't stand the hardware restrictions (like
> not having two mouse buttons, not having a backspace and a delete key,
> etc).
> Gnome-Shell is a disaster. I absolutely hate it. The way it wastes vertical
> space, the retarded way it handles Restart and Shutdown (I never use suspend
> on my desktop, yet that's my only choice in the session menu unless I hit
> Alt). There's pathetic keyboard access to the Top Panel. The list just goes
> on & on. Unity saved ubuntu as far as I'm concerned.
> I just hope Unity with Gnome-3 doesn't end up ruining everything I love
> about the gnome-2 Unity. Just hearing that there's talk of creating a popup
> dialog in order to be able to Restart and Shutdown the system is
> "Gnome-Shell backward thinking." I can't recall how many people I have
> personally watched sit down in front of Gnome-Shell at my work and start
> cursing cause they can't figure out how to shut down Gnome-Shell. The common
> end result = a forced shutdown by holding down the power button. I sit
> someone down in front of Ubuntu 10.04 or 11.04 and they figure out how to
> restart or shutdown immediately. Ubuntu already has a fantastically simple
> and understandable way to control sessions with the Session Menu. People
> understand it. It works. Leave it alone!

Gnome Shell is also keyboard accessible; it just needs to be refined a
bit more. Try Ctrl+Alt+Tab to move your keyboard focus to the top bar.
I use Gnome Shell as my primary desktop these days.

There's a handy extension for Gnome Shell called
alternative-status-menu. Unfortunately the extensions haven't been
packaged in Debian or Ubuntu yet. (I think the blocker in Debian is
that installed extensions are currently enabled by default for all
users which is not optimal as some like the alternative-status-menu
are useful for everyone but others are more difference of opinion.
Debian would prefer a proper extension manager be built by GNOME to
handle installed but disabled by default.)

I'm surprised that you think Ubuntu 10.04's design doesn't need
updating. I remember a lot of people complaining about it then but
people will always complain. Do try to be more courteous and
respectful towards the contributions of those in the free software
community. GNOME is not our enemy.

Jeremy Bicha

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Re: [Ayatana] the Device & User Menu concept should be Scraped

[nick rundy]

Why can't the Session Menu stay basically like it is in 10.04? Why does it need 
a Bluetooth Menu--there's a Bluetooth Status Indicator isn't there?  Displays. 
. .? Login Items. . ? Attached Devices. . ? Why is any of this stuff being 
placed in a Status Menu indicator? Personally, I don't even understand why 
"System Settings" is in the menu. System Settings should be an item in the 
"Control Center." It has no purpose or place in a Status menu indicator. That's 
what the Dash is for.The WHOLE Device-Menu-and-User-Menu concept 
(wiki:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeviceMenuAndUserMenu) should be scraped. The 
Session-Menu as it exists in 10.04 is FANTASTIC. It doesn't need changing. And 
everything proposed in the wiki is just useless clutter. It's all represented 
elsewhere and doesn't fit at all as items in a Status Menu indicator. Why was 
this concept even thought up? What was the point?
Unity is the reason I am still using Linux. If Gnome-Shell was the new ubuntu 
desktop, I would without any hesitation have returned to Microsoft Windows. I 
would try KDE and some others over time, maybe. I have already tried KDE a 
little. But to be honest I'm sick of having to learn whole new desktops. I'm 
pretty much done. At this point it's either Windows or Ubuntu for me. I've 
tried Mac OS but can't stand the hardware restrictions (like not having two 
mouse buttons, not having a backspace and a delete key, etc). 
Gnome-Shell is a disaster. I absolutely hate it. The way it wastes vertical 
space, the retarded way it handles Restart and Shutdown (I never use suspend on 
my desktop, yet that's my only choice in the session menu unless I hit Alt). 
There's pathetic keyboard access to the Top Panel. The list just goes on & on. 
Unity saved ubuntu as far as I'm concerned.
I just hope Unity with Gnome-3 doesn't end up ruining everything I love about 
the gnome-2 Unity. Just hearing that there's talk of creating a popup dialog in 
order to be able to Restart and Shutdown the system is "Gnome-Shell backward 
thinking." I can't recall how many people I have personally watched sit down in 
front of Gnome-Shell at my work and start cursing cause they can't figure out 
how to shut down Gnome-Shell. The common end result = a forced shutdown by 
holding down the power button. I sit someone down in front of Ubuntu 10.04 or 
11.04 and they figure out how to restart or shutdown immediately. Ubuntu 
already has a fantastically simple and understandable way to control sessions 
with the Session Menu. People understand it. It works. Leave it alone!


> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 06:33:26 +0930
> From: da...@kvr.com.au
> To: nru...@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> Certainly, I'll leave it up to the folks in UI design like MPT and others to 
> curate the feedback and go from there, you are probably right in that it 
> makes sense to have the devices there, though just from a personal 
> perspective I wish to have the icons removed, I'll see if I can get it added 
> to the power users program or something like that as a sort of a compromise. 
> :)
> 
> - ikt
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "nick rundy" 
> To: da...@kvr.com.au
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011 5:01:30 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> 
> I can see your point :) I hate clutter too, but I think the Launcher is a 
> different beast. Here's why: 
> 
> different people use computers differently. One user right-clicks to select 
> copy, another selects Edit > Copy from the app menu. I think there needs to 
> be a couple ways of achieving the same thing when ever possible. Being able 
> to click a launcher icon and gain immediate access to an attached USB thumb 
> drive is a useful feature. But a user could open Nautilus and then click the 
> thumb drive in the Side Pane. A little more work, but then there are less 
> items appearing in the Launcher. But here's why I think that argument is not 
> strong enough: by default the launcher is set to auto-hide, it has the 
> ability to scroll and manage lots & lots of icons by design, and it already 
> serves as the "repository" or "bowl" where opened things are corraled. The 
> Launcher was designed to be filled up with stuff. It was designed as the 
> interface tray that holds what users have opened. 
> 
> If a setting gives users the choice of hiding such things without screwing up 
> the code, then I guess that's up to the developers. My understanding though 
> is that putting settings in like that can sometimes be a real headache and 
> mess with the code in undesirable ways. So I think the current default of 
> showing mounted devices is the best move and IMHO very useful & consistent. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 04:39:17 +0930 
> > From: da...@kvr.com.au 
> > To: nru...@hotmail.com 
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs 
> > 
> > sorry I used a bad example. 
> > 
> > At the moment my USB

Re: [Ayatana] What about the Dash on Oneiric Ocelot ?

[Josh Strawbridge]

mind pointing me towards those mockups?  I've been looking but i can't find
them.
I've seen things where they replace the dash with a dynamic launcher with
new buttons for various categories that have pop up windows, things where
they just put old gnome2 menu options as replacements of the default 8
buttons and yours.
most of the mockups I've seen also didn't have all that much to do with the
dash design and were more unity in general or focused more on other things.
 i did like the double sided launcher thing and the small buttons you had at
the bottom of your launcher.

i haven't actually seen another mockup that has anything immediately useful
right off the first click as far as mouse use goes. it's all been buttons
here buttons there buttons done this other way. I'm not saying other
instantly useful mockups don't exist, i just haven't seen them personally.
 the dash is already great for keyboard use thanks to the search feature but
it really needs some work on other options.

i like your lens idea as part of the dash but I'm a bit uncertain if you
mean for it to be the entire dash or just part of it.  i think there has to
be some sort of category browsing interface because new users aren't going
to know what to look for and some people like myself sometimes forget the
names of less used applications.  i also sadly haven't seen that many lenses
but maybe i'm just bad at finding them.

-- 
Josh Strawbridge
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Re: [Ayatana] FW: Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[Carl Ansell]

If you don't use the icons, won't they fold up and hide at the bottom of the 
launcher when it is full?


I find it useful, but I can also appreciate the wasted space for people that 
don't use it. If an option to turn it on and off is too complex, then to reduce 
the space used maybe a kind of removable media quicklist could be used so that 
when multiple devices are plugged in, they only use one icon on the launcher.


From: nru...@hotmail.com
To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:32:11 -0400
Subject: [Ayatana] FW:  Comments on the Device & User Menu specs















I can see your point :) I hate clutter too, but I think the Launcher is a 
different beast. Here's why:

different people use computers differently. One user right-clicks to select 
copy, another selects Edit > Copy from the app menu. I think there needs to be 
a couple ways of achieving the same thing when ever possible. Being able to 
click a launcher icon and gain immediate access to an attached USB thumb drive 
is a useful feature. But a user could open Nautilus and then click the thumb 
drive in the Side Pane. A little more work, but then there are less items 
appearing in the Launcher. But here's why I think that argument is not strong 
enough:  by default the launcher is set to auto-hide, it has the ability to 
scroll and manage lots & lots of icons by design, and it already serves as the 
"repository" or "bowl" where opened things are corraled. The Launcher was 
designed to be filled up with stuff. It was designed as the interface tray that 
holds what users have opened.

If a setting gives users the choice of hiding such things without screwing up 
the code, then I guess that's up to the developers. My understanding though is 
that putting settings in like that can sometimes be a real headache and mess 
with the code in undesirable ways. So I think the current default of showing 
mounted devices is the best move and IMHO very useful & consistent. 

  

> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 04:39:17 +0930
> From: da...@kvr.com.au
> To: nru...@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> sorry I used a bad example.
> 
> At the moment my USB device is mounted, I have no use for it sitting in the 
> launcher, but I may save something to it via libreoffice.
> 
> If I do go to it I usually go through my home folder or search for a file on 
> the dash.
> 
> I also have a second hard drive mounted for my torrents, if I unmount the 
> drive my torrent program stops running however I have no need to see the 
> drive itself mounted on my launcher.
> 
> Both my usb drive and second hard drive are mounted, but I haven't clicked on 
> the launcher icons once, I would prefer the option to hide them, I'd also 
> like to get rid of the workspace switcher icon as well.
> 
> I might see if I can do something like what happened with re-sizing the 
> launcher (https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/713087)
> 
> - ikt
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "nick rundy" 
> To: da...@kvr.com.au
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011 4:03:19 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> 
> when the device is mounted, doesn't this mean you want to use it? If you are 
> done using it, then unmount it and the icon disappears. 
> 
> The launcher being able to scroll is awesome and it allows for the space to 
> be able to display mounted devices. Everything I open is represented in the 
> Launcher. It's consistent and allows users to always know where to look for 
> things. 
> 
> 
> > Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 03:00:19 +0930 
> > From: da...@kvr.com.au 
> > To: nru...@hotmail.com; ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs 
> > 
> > Would it be possible to have: 
> > 
> > Power users > show mounted icons on launcher 
> > 
> > Like the old: gnome > show mounted devices on desktop 
> > 
> > ? 
> > 
> > I prefer having neither showing as I usually only access my device once 
> > after I plug it in, and it can appear poorly organised if there are 4+ 
> > devices mounted showing in the launcher. 
> > 
> > - ikt 
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "nick rundy"  
> > To: m...@ubuntu.com, ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
> > Sent: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011 12:45:53 AM 
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs 
> > 
> > > We might drop the launcher visibility of mounted drives, based on user 
> > > testing. 
> > 
> > 
> > NO! 
> > 
> > I PREY this doesn't happen. I LOVE having mounted devices show up in the 
> > Launcher. I also love having an icon show on the Desktop. The desktop icon 
> > always reminds me I have something mounted when I close my windows. And I 
> > routinely access the launcher icon of mounted devices. 

  

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Post 

[Ayatana] FW: Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[nick rundy]

I can see your point :) I hate clutter too, but I think the Launcher is a 
different beast. Here's why:

different people use computers differently. One user right-clicks to select 
copy, another selects Edit > Copy from the app menu. I think there needs to be 
a couple ways of achieving the same thing when ever possible. Being able to 
click a launcher icon and gain immediate access to an attached USB thumb drive 
is a useful feature. But a user could open Nautilus and then click the thumb 
drive in the Side Pane. A little more work, but then there are less items 
appearing in the Launcher. But here's why I think that argument is not strong 
enough:  by default the launcher is set to auto-hide, it has the ability to 
scroll and manage lots & lots of icons by design, and it already serves as the 
"repository" or "bowl" where opened things are corraled. The Launcher was 
designed to be filled up with stuff. It was designed as the interface tray that 
holds what users have opened.

If a setting gives users the choice of hiding such things without screwing up 
the code, then I guess that's up to the developers. My understanding though is 
that putting settings in like that can sometimes be a real headache and mess 
with the code in undesirable ways. So I think the current default of showing 
mounted devices is the best move and IMHO very useful & consistent. 

  

> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 04:39:17 +0930
> From: da...@kvr.com.au
> To: nru...@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> sorry I used a bad example.
> 
> At the moment my USB device is mounted, I have no use for it sitting in the 
> launcher, but I may save something to it via libreoffice.
> 
> If I do go to it I usually go through my home folder or search for a file on 
> the dash.
> 
> I also have a second hard drive mounted for my torrents, if I unmount the 
> drive my torrent program stops running however I have no need to see the 
> drive itself mounted on my launcher.
> 
> Both my usb drive and second hard drive are mounted, but I haven't clicked on 
> the launcher icons once, I would prefer the option to hide them, I'd also 
> like to get rid of the workspace switcher icon as well.
> 
> I might see if I can do something like what happened with re-sizing the 
> launcher (https://bugs.launchpad.net/unity/+bug/713087)
> 
> - ikt
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "nick rundy" 
> To: da...@kvr.com.au
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011 4:03:19 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> 
> when the device is mounted, doesn't this mean you want to use it? If you are 
> done using it, then unmount it and the icon disappears. 
> 
> The launcher being able to scroll is awesome and it allows for the space to 
> be able to display mounted devices. Everything I open is represented in the 
> Launcher. It's consistent and allows users to always know where to look for 
> things. 
> 
> 
> > Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 03:00:19 +0930 
> > From: da...@kvr.com.au 
> > To: nru...@hotmail.com; ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs 
> > 
> > Would it be possible to have: 
> > 
> > Power users > show mounted icons on launcher 
> > 
> > Like the old: gnome > show mounted devices on desktop 
> > 
> > ? 
> > 
> > I prefer having neither showing as I usually only access my device once 
> > after I plug it in, and it can appear poorly organised if there are 4+ 
> > devices mounted showing in the launcher. 
> > 
> > - ikt 
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "nick rundy"  
> > To: m...@ubuntu.com, ayatana@lists.launchpad.net 
> > Sent: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011 12:45:53 AM 
> > Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs 
> > 
> > > We might drop the launcher visibility of mounted drives, based on user 
> > > testing. 
> > 
> > 
> > NO! 
> > 
> > I PREY this doesn't happen. I LOVE having mounted devices show up in the 
> > Launcher. I also love having an icon show on the Desktop. The desktop icon 
> > always reminds me I have something mounted when I close my windows. And I 
> > routinely access the launcher icon of mounted devices. 

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Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[David]

Would it be possible to have:

Power users > show mounted icons on launcher

Like the old: gnome > show mounted devices on desktop

?

I prefer having neither showing as I usually only access my device once after I 
plug it in, and it can appear poorly organised if there are 4+ devices mounted 
showing in the launcher.

- ikt


- Original Message -
From: "nick rundy" 
To: m...@ubuntu.com, ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Sent: Wednesday, 3 August, 2011 12:45:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

> We might drop the launcher visibility of mounted drives, based on user 
> testing. 


NO! 

I PREY this doesn't happen. I LOVE having mounted devices show up in the 
Launcher. I also love having an icon show on the Desktop. The desktop icon 
always reminds me I have something mounted when I close my windows. And I 
routinely access the launcher icon of mounted devices. 

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Re: [Ayatana] What about the Dash on Oneiric Ocelot ?

[Niklas Rosenqvist]

I agree that the main page needs a drastic redesign, it's completely useless
in its current state. Hopefully canonical will use the feedback they've
received and make something of it.

I've seen a couple of mockups like yours and personally I prefer the more
minimalistic approach :) though whatever design they implement is enough for
me if it's different from the current.
Den 2 aug 2011 17.06 skrev "Josh Strawbridge" :
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Re: [Ayatana] What about the Dash on Oneiric Ocelot ?

[Josh Strawbridge]

i had a lot of the same thoughts a few weeks ago and i drew up a mock up of
what i thought dash should be.

dash is very keyboard friendly but when I'm using a mouse (or tablet
actually) it's not a very pleasant experience. i only use the first page of
the dash to get to the second page.

this is what i'd like to see on the first click of the dash button.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b0nFEjg8IUU/TjfzbXjLQsI/AE4/9WjTUSCdq2A/s912/Dash1.png
obviously the search bar stays but the giant buttons have been replaced with
sections for "bookmarked" apps, "frequently used" apps, and recent
files. there are still buttons for application and file menus but they're
not giant and fit into the available space
the "bookmarked" apps shouldn't show up in the "frequently used" apps
section so users actually end up with easy access to 12 or so of their
programs half of which are there by their choice and none of them are
redundant icons.
it would also be nice if items on the launcher didn't show up in this
frequently used section since if someone is opening dash for an application
it likely isn't on their launcher.

this would make dash more immediately useful and more useful in general for
everyone.

the application menu is also an unpleasant thing to work with. it's current
design causes extra mouse travel and clicks
this is my redesign for the application menus
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aycXldce3wg/Tjfzbf_RTPI/AFA/FqqZ-ALECOU/s912/Dash2.png
having the categories listed under the apps button keeps mouse travel in the
same direction and makes them a lot closer to the initial click of the dash
button.

the apps available for download has been replaced by a button that opens the
software center.
only having a name and icon for an app doesn't usually tell you a lot about
the app. it's a poor use of space that everyone I've read mention it would
like to use differently.
this button makes new apps still easy to find for new users but without the
poor use of space in the current design.

"most frequently used" sections should be removed from application
categories. if someone frequently uses something they're likely to have made
it more available to themselves elsewhere such as their launcher or the
first page of the dash.
only having a simple showing of a single category means there are no
redundant icons and more apps showing at a time. this makes it more likely
to find the app on the first page of the category.
i only have experience on my computer but of the 146 apps installed 72 of
them are in Themes & Tweaks or System which i never use. my most used
categories, graphics and multimedia, aren't even a full page while my
sometimes used games category isn't even two full pages.

there should be a button to add applications to the dash.
i think this is needed due to a few situations I've run into.  programs that
are downloaded ready to go without installation, such as the latest versions
of blender, Wine programs, and programs that a user installs from source
don't show up in the dash. two of my most used programs aren't in the dash
because they're latest versions from source or didn't require installing.

the button should open a dialogue box similar to the one in gnome2 for
adding custom launchers to the panel. it should have the same options plus
an option for choosing what category the application shows in and options
for adding quicklist commands.
i think the same dialogue box would also be useful in right clicking on the
launcher to add or edit things there as well.

as for the files menus...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-05nFrIdK4Ls/TjfzbgwTjGI/AFI/3yFRyvi-abY/s912/Dash3.png
i want the front design of the files menus to include everything from the
old gnome2 places menu.  a lot of people have been missing it and i don't
blame them. i put as much of it as i could into quicklists on my Home
launcher. aside from the current dash design and lack of places menu i like
how the files and folders stuff works now.

overall i think this mock up retains the dash's style while making it more
mouse and touch friendly though the view more results text on the first dash
page and the files & folders recent section could be turned into slightly
larger buttons to make those parts a bit more touch friendly.

also, sorry for being long winded.

-- 
Josh Strawbridge
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Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mark Shuttleworth wrote on 02/08/11 09:17:
> 
> Hi Jeremy, thanks for your mail.
> 
> On 02/08/11 00:35, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
>>
>> Since I help out on the Documentation Team, I value clear user
>> interface terminology so that users, powerusers, and maybe even
>> developers can use the same, understandable language. The old session
>> menu name became unclear when System Settings was added to it, but I
>> have to say that "device menu" is an even worse name. I strongly
>> prefer calling this menu the "system menu" since the items here are
>> generally system actions or configurations. Also, it's parallel to
>> the power menu having a power settings button and the sound menu
>> having a sound settings button.
> 
> +1 from me. I'd like to hear MPT's opinion on this, but if he raises
> no objections consider that an approval to move forward. If he does,
> I'll be glad to resolve it one way or the other.

Unlike the sound, messaging, and clock menus, this menu isn't referred
to by name in any external settings panels. So the effect of any name
will be quite small as long as the Ubuntu help is well-hidden.

That said, I see a benefit and a drawback of calling it the "system
menu". The benefit is that it will be a little more familiar for people
who didn't use 11.04, but who did use an earlier version that had a
"System" menu containing similar items. (For example, people upgrading
from 10.04 LTS to 12.04 LTS.)

The drawback is that it will seem awkward that we have a "system menu"
with a title that is an icon, but isn't the Ubuntu logo.

>> http://pad.lv/815077 was reported about the lack of a Restart button.
>> It appears as though the spec is that Restart will only be shown if
>> restart-required updates have not been applied. A typical user will
>> want to restart to Windows or OS X. A fair number of developers have
>> another Ubuntu install or Linux distribution they would like to
>> reboot to use. Requiring users to log out before they restart seems
>> to make a common usecase more frustrating. If the desire is to reduce
>> menu option clutter, I suggest keeping the option as Shut Down (or
>> Power Off might be a good descriptive alternative). And then use a
>> pop-up like Gnome Shell to allow Restart, Shutdown (automatic after
>> 60 seconds), or Cancel. See http://i.imgur.com/lLPoL.png
> 
> +1 also.
>...

Last week I saw visual design work for a new shutdown screen that had no
"Restart" button. So I checked this with John, and discovered that I had
misunderstood his design. The intent is for there to be no unprompted
"Restart" command, in the shutdown dialog or anywhere else. The only
restart interface is supposed to be in prompts, for example in the
Update Manager dialog telling you that updates requiring restart have
completed.

- -- 
mpt
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Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[nick rundy]

> We might drop the launcher visibility of mounted drives, based on user > 
> testing.
NO!

I PREY this doesn't happen. I LOVE having mounted devices show up in the 
Launcher. I also love having an icon show on the Desktop. The desktop icon 
always reminds me I have something mounted when I close my windows. And I 
routinely access the launcher icon of mounted devices.
I complained to Microsoft that Windows 7 does not show an icon for attached USB 
thumb drives in the Taskbar =)  Having mounted devices show up in the Launcher 
is one of the things that gave it a big PLUS over Windows in my evaluation of 
the two OSs.
> > http://pad.lv/815077 was reported about the lack of a Restart button.> > It 
> > appears as though the spec is that Restart will only be shown if> > 
> > restart-required updates have not been applied. A typical user will> > want 
> > to restart to Windows or OS X. A fair number of developers have> > another 
> > Ubuntu install or Linux distribution they would like to reboot> > to use. 
> > Requiring users to log out before they restart seems to make a> > common 
> > usecase more frustrating. If the desire is to reduce menu> > option 
> > clutter, I suggest keeping the option as Shut Down (or Power> > Off might 
> > be a good descriptive alternative). And then use a pop-up> > like Gnome 
> > Shell to allow Restart, Shutdown (automatic after 60> > seconds), or 
> > Cancel. See http://i.imgur.com/lLPoL.png
I really hope common sense is used here. One of the biggest reasons I dumped 
gnome3-shell for Unity was because of the crazy design Gnome used in the 
"session menu." They make it so complicated to shutdown and restart the 
computer. IMHO Gnome-3 has made a lot of horrible design choices. Their design 
of the Session Menu is but one example. If it wasn't for Unity, I would have 
surely left the Gnome environment for KDE or some as yet undiscovered desktop.
The # 1 way I shutdown and restart the computer (which are commands I use 
regularly) is via keyboard shortcut. On Ubuntu 10.04 I hit:  super + S, 
up-arrow, enter. I use this command multiple times a day. It is quick and very 
fast, requiring little effort. In addition, one of the first things I do when 
installing Ubuntu is DISABLE the Shutdown Confirmation Dialog Prompt 
(gconf-editor > apps > indicator-session > suppress_logout_restart_shutdown) 
that asks me to verify the command I just selected. When I select Shutdown, it 
infuriates me to have a dialog pop up asking me if I want to do what I just 
said to do.
Adding a popup window in order to shutdown and restart just makes the process 
more complicated and requires more effort. It also creates the appearance of 
more activity, which is less calming. I believe the "classic" setup is best. 
The "Session Menu" should contain explicit options for Log Out, Suspend, 
Restart, and Shutdown that can be accessed quickly from keyboard shortcut. If 
space is needed or clutter needs to be controlled, the last things to touch 
should be: Log Out, Suspend, Restart, and Shutdown. These should be the 
core/foundation commands for this menu.
Requiring a popup would kill this functionality. The exception I could see 
would be if a keyboard shortcut (e.g., super + S) is all that is needed to 
bring up the popup menu. Then the user could hit: Super + S and the popup menu 
would "instantly appear" and the user could then use the arrow-key + Enter to 
select his choice. But I'm reluctant to see more popups and prefer the Ubuntu 
10.04 designed Session Menu. Popups get tiring. The way the Session Menu exists 
in Ubuntu 10.04 strikes users as more integrated and "stable." It is a good 
design. Hopefully 11.10 will start using it again.

> > I very much like having System Settings at the top of the system menu> > 
> > and the Lock/Sleep/Power options at the buttom. I also like the> > Software 
> > Updates status incorporated into the system menu.
I was overjoyed to see screenshots of Oneiric showing Shut Down as being the 
last item in the Session Menu again. This makes use of keyboard shortcuts to 
control the session a LOT easier to use.
these aren't just minor issues to me. these functions are critical to how I use 
my computer and why I choose to use the OS I did.







> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 09:17:00 +0100
> From: m...@ubuntu.com
> To: jbi...@ubuntu.com
> CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs
> 
> 
> Hi Jeremy, thanks for your mail.
> 
> On 02/08/11 00:35, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> > Since I help out on the Documentation Team, I value clear user
> > interface terminology so that users, powerusers, and maybe even
> > developers can use the same, understandable language. The old session
> > menu name became unclear when System Settings was added to it, but I
> > have to say that "device menu" is an even worse name. I strongly
> > prefer calling this menu the "system menu" since the items here are
> > generally system actions or configurations

Re: [Ayatana] What about the Dash on Oneiric Ocelot ?

[Niklas Rosenqvist]

Hi, I've earlier suggested removing the lenses from the launcher and
integrating into the dash main page instead. I made a mockup but without
lens titles which obviously would be required:
http://i.imgur.com/76Jge.jpg

Here is the original post:
https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg05999.html

2011/8/2 

> Hello !!
>
> I'm testing Ubuntu 11.10, and actually it's in really good shape. But the
> feature freeze is really near, and i don't see any change in the dash and
> places.
> From my point of view, this piece of unity need a redesign or a big
> modification :
>
> In the main page :
> - The main  page of the dash is really useless. It would be really more
> useful to put for example a mix of App place and files place with favourite
> and recent document.
>
> In the apps place :
> - The category list is not easy to use ( small and doesn’t provide a quick
> access to the categories)
> - Favourites apps aren't very useful ( my favourites apps are in the the
> launcher )
> - not installed apps add confusion and take an important place. In my mind
> it's better to put it in a lateral place with more smaller icon and let
> space to the installed apps)
> - The result of installed place is very small and it's necessary to click
> on a tiny arrow to see the complete result.
>
> Have you planned modifications for this release ?
>
> ( sorry for my bad english ;) )
> Thanks for your great work on Ubuntu
> Sébastien Lemarinel.
>
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Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[Thibaut Brandscheid]

2011/8/2 Jeremy Bicha 

>  If the desire is to reduce menu
> option clutter, I suggest keeping the option as Shut Down (or Power
> Off might be a good descriptive alternative). And then use a pop-up
> like Gnome Shell to allow Restart, Shutdown (automatic after 60
> seconds), or Cancel. See http://i.imgur.com/lLPoL.png
>

Sounds good :)

Moving on to the user menu, Online Accounts is not a very useful menu
> item.
>

For me the UserMenu seems to be the new MeMenu → most people won't use it
because it contains none useful items for them but takes "a lot of screen
space". I would prefer an 'Accounts' entry in the SystemMenu to switch to
other accounts and in the system settings an entry 'Online Accounts' (since
I have to configure it only once - there is no need to access it often).

For the device section of the SystemMenu I suggest to use icons and put them
in a row (saves space - same functionality). Most times you know the devices
plugged into your computer so an icon will indicate it sufficiently without
cluttering the menu to much.

Kind Regards
Thibaut
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[Ayatana] What about the Dash on Oneiric Ocelot ?

[seb117]

Hello !!

I'm testing Ubuntu 11.10, and actually it's in really good shape. But the 
feature freeze is really near, and i don't see any change in the dash and 
places.
From my point of view, this piece of unity need a redesign or a big 
modification :

In the main page :
- The main  page of the dash is really useless. It would be really more useful 
to put for example a mix of App place and files place with favourite and recent 
document.

In the apps place :
- The category list is not easy to use ( small and doesn’t provide a quick 
access to the categories)
- Favourites apps aren't very useful ( my favourites apps are in the the 
launcher )
- not installed apps add confusion and take an important place. In my mind it's 
better to put it in a lateral place with more smaller icon and let space to the 
installed apps)
- The result of installed place is very small and it's necessary to click on a 
tiny arrow to see the complete result.

Have you planned modifications for this release ?

( sorry for my bad english ;) )
Thanks for your great work on Ubuntu
Sébastien Lemarinel.

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Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device & User Menu specs

[Mark Shuttleworth]

Hi Jeremy, thanks for your mail.

On 02/08/11 00:35, Jeremy Bicha wrote:

Since I help out on the Documentation Team, I value clear user
interface terminology so that users, powerusers, and maybe even
developers can use the same, understandable language. The old session
menu name became unclear when System Settings was added to it, but I
have to say that "device menu" is an even worse name. I strongly
prefer calling this menu the "system menu" since the items here are
generally system actions or configurations. Also, it's parallel to the
power menu having a power settings button and the sound menu having a
sound settings button.


+1 from me. I'd like to hear MPT's opinion on this, but if he raises no 
objections consider that an approval to move forward. If he does, I'll 
be glad to resolve it one way or the other.



http://pad.lv/815077 was reported about the lack of a Restart button.
It appears as though the spec is that Restart will only be shown if
restart-required updates have not been applied. A typical user will
want to restart to Windows or OS X. A fair number of developers have
another Ubuntu install or Linux distribution they would like to reboot
to use. Requiring users to log out before they restart seems to make a
common usecase more frustrating. If the desire is to reduce menu
option clutter, I suggest keeping the option as Shut Down (or Power
Off might be a good descriptive alternative). And then use a pop-up
like Gnome Shell to allow Restart, Shutdown (automatic after 60
seconds), or Cancel. See http://i.imgur.com/lLPoL.png


+1 also.



Login Items (Startup Applications) has only a very narrow, power user
use case especially in its current condition. I have never used it for
anything useful. For power users, it's easily findable in the Dash.


Agreed.


Since Bluetooth has its own menu, it definitely should not be in the
system menu. Many computers don't have bluetooth support anyway.
Honestly, I strongly question the need to have direct links here to
individual panels of System Settings. The most common options (Power,
Bluetooth, Sound, etc.) already are consistently at the bottom of
their respective menus. Displays also should just work for most
people; for others, set once and then always work.


Bluetooth will either move to the new menu, or stay special-cased on the 
panel, not both.




Devices sounds like it should also include the ability to unmount
removable drives, but perhaps this is a conflict with the Places Lens
thing.


We might drop the launcher visibility of mounted drives, based on user 
testing.



I very much like having System Settings at the top of the system menu
and the Lock/Sleep/Power options at the buttom. I also like the
Software Updates status incorporated into the system menu.


Thanks :-)

Mark

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