Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
We definitely need a natural way to move between "full screen" (no panel) and "panelled" mode, across multiple apps. And perhaps we need a good way for things like indicators to show up at appropriate times, when the panel is not being displayed. So kudos to the Elementary team for their explorations with wingpanel. In terms of space efficiency, though, if you maximise a window and have wingpanel float over it, you effectively have the same thing as the design goal for 11.04 Unity: maximised windows put titles / window controls / windicators into the panel themselves. And if you're not using a maximised window then space efficiency is by definition not your primary concern. I can see that there's a "lightness" of the desktop without the panel, yes. So I think this idea has merit and is worth exploration. I would welcome mockups and discussion on the Ayatana list, cc'd. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On 21 December 2010 11:21, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > We definitely need a natural way to move between "full screen" (no > panel) and "panelled" mode, across multiple apps. And perhaps we need a > good way for things like indicators to show up at appropriate times, > when the panel is not being displayed. > > Just to clarify, do you mean that there would be a system-wide on/off switch for the Unity panel (my request) or do you mean that entering an app into a "fullscreen" mode would remove the panel (which, while a cool feature, is not quite what I was after :) ) > So kudos to the Elementary team for their explorations with wingpanel. > > In terms of space efficiency, though, if you maximise a window and have > wingpanel float over it, you effectively have the same thing as the > design goal for 11.04 Unity: maximised windows put titles / window > controls / windicators into the panel themselves. And if you're not > using a maximised window then space efficiency is by definition not your > primary concern. > > The obvious difference is of course the global menu. Indicator-appmenu is my only gripe with Unity, and the reason is that I use more than one monitor and focus follows mouse on my work desktop; a global menu isn't a great fit for this. I want a consistent experience across all my PCs and so if I remove indicator-appmenu from one, I'll remove it from all. This leaves me with a rather irritating blank panel stretched across the desktop that I can't do anything with. Wingpanel is for me the ideal solution; hence the bug report, I'd like to run Wingpanel + Unity Dock together (which would be my ideal setup, I even mocked up this exact setup on Ayatana before Wingpanel even existed: https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04044.html ) > I can see that there's a "lightness" of the desktop without the panel, > yes. So I think this idea has merit and is worth exploration. I would > welcome mockups and discussion on the Ayatana list, cc'd. > > Mark > > > Cool :) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
El mar, 21-12-2010 a las 14:12 +, Luke Benstead escribió: > Just to clarify, do you mean that there would be a system-wide on/off > switch for the Unity panel (my request) or do you mean that entering > an app into a "fullscreen" mode would remove the panel (which, while a > cool feature, is not quite what I was after :) ) I agree with this question... Mark, You mean like Totem full screen mode and want something like wingpanel for show some indicators? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > We definitely need a natural way to move between "full screen" (no > panel) and "panelled" mode, across multiple apps. And perhaps we need a > good way for things like indicators to show up at appropriate times, > when the panel is not being displayed. > > So kudos to the Elementary team for their explorations with wingpanel. > > In terms of space efficiency, though, if you maximise a window and have > wingpanel float over it, you effectively have the same thing as the > design goal for 11.04 Unity: maximised windows put titles / window > controls / windicators into the panel themselves. And if you're not > using a maximised window then space efficiency is by definition not your > primary concern. > > I can see that there's a "lightness" of the desktop without the panel, > yes. So I think this idea has merit and is worth exploration. I would > welcome mockups and discussion on the Ayatana list, cc'd. > > Mark > I think that Apple has a nice solution in the coming OSX 10.7 for fullscreen apps. They basically merged Expose (scale in compiz), Spaces (workspaces in Linux) and fullscreen mode with their Mission Control app. Activating Mission Control gives an overlay over the desktop that has at the top (sorted horizontally in a line) all fullscreen apps and below that non-fullscreen apps that have their windows stacked on a per application basis in Expose (scale) mode. The problem with this approach in Ubuntu is that Apple uses their multitouch trackpads to activate that overlay since in fullscreen mode there is no dock or panel present. I think that a decent solution for 11.04 would be to create a temporary workspace for the fullscreen app so that it shows in the Expo (Workspace switcher) mode but once the app is un-fullscreen-ed it would return to the workspace from which it originated (no fancy animation transitions). Alt-Tab-ing while the fullscreen app is focused would tab-between workspaces and not applications. If you alt-tab while a non-fullscreen applications is focused (so you can see the launcher and the panel) would tab between applications that are currently open and the fullscreen apps. It would be nice if we (and by we I mean people with relevant skills/knowledge) could finally unite the disparity that exists between window management (on the current workspace) and workspaces so that workspaces become part of window management. Gnome-Shell is on a good path in regards to that. Another solution to look at would be Firefox 4's Panorama which would work wonders in fixing the need to organize one's work/play/personal activities. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On Tue, 2010-12-21 at 17:10 +0100, zekopeko wrote: > I think that a decent solution for 11.04 would be to create a > temporary workspace for the fullscreen app so that it shows in the > Expo (Workspace switcher) mode but once the app is un-fullscreen-ed it > would return to the workspace from which it originated (no fancy > animation transitions). Alt-Tab-ing while the fullscreen app is > focused would tab-between workspaces and not applications. If you > alt-tab while a non-fullscreen applications is focused (so you can see > the launcher and the panel) would tab between applications that are > currently open and the fullscreen apps. they removed ALT+F2, so i'm not even sure they'll keep ALT+TAB. There must be a quicker way than a combination here.. ALT+TAB through Workspaces is a very sharp idea OTOH, and i think it's still worth dreaming of... > It would be nice if we (and by we I mean people with relevant > skills/knowledge) could finally unite the disparity that exists > between window management (on the current workspace) and workspaces so > that workspaces become part of window management. Gnome-Shell is on a > good path in regards to that. altogether, window management needs to get back in line with the original goals of desktop linux: to manage content better. F11 for Fullscreen Mode as long as there is no consistent way to go to fullscreen mode, i.e. to use the entire screen real estate for content, people will not get used to entering and leaving fullscreen. F11 stands a good chance i think. And in return, [Esc] stands a good chance for close-without-quit aka "hide window" or what some prefer to call "minimize" ;) Close, MaxVert, Fullscreen Mode in a recent thread, i suggested to add a button to the window controls: fullscreen. This, because many users don't even know what fullscreen mode is, except for in movie players.. they learn it on youtube, where there is a more than obvious "fullscreen" button, and start looking for such a button in totem, vlc etc.. Floating Indicators One could think of single icons popping up upon transient events top right corner of a fullscreen window, provided i'm not set to "do not disturb". But the visibility of single icons popping up above whatever content is beneath them is low. WingPanel is an excellent option here, it would only have to be transparent, and it would have to know when it is above the content area of an application in fullscreen mode. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On 22/12/10 04:53, Frederik Nnaji wrote: > On Tue, 2010-12-21 at 17:10 +0100, zekopeko wrote: > > >> I think that a decent solution for 11.04 would be to create a >> temporary workspace for the fullscreen app so that it shows in the >> Expo (Workspace switcher) mode but once the app is un-fullscreen-ed it >> would return to the workspace from which it originated (no fancy >> animation transitions). Alt-Tab-ing while the fullscreen app is >> focused would tab-between workspaces and not applications. If you >> alt-tab while a non-fullscreen applications is focused (so you can see >> the launcher and the panel) would tab between applications that are >> currently open and the fullscreen apps. > > they removed ALT+F2, so i'm not even sure they'll keep ALT+TAB. Alt-F2 is just not yet implemented, it's filed as a bug and will get fixed. Of course we'll retain Alt-TAB! > *Close, MaxVert, Fullscreen Mode* > in a recent thread, i suggested to add a button to the window > controls: fullscreen. This, because many users don't even know what > fullscreen mode is, except for in movie players.. they learn it on > youtube, where there is a more than obvious "fullscreen" button, and > start looking for such a button in totem, vlc etc.. The issue then is to figure out how to get OUT of fullscreen :-) The approach we are taking is reversible gestures, where a particular gesture gets you into a fullscreen situation, and reversing the gesture (I wave my hands furiously ;-)) gets you out. > *Floating Indicators* > One could think of single icons popping up upon transient events top > right corner of a fullscreen window, provided i'm not set to "do not > disturb". > But the visibility of single icons popping up above whatever content > is beneath them is low. > WingPanel is an excellent option here, it would only have to be > transparent, and it would have to know when it is above the content > area of an application in fullscreen mode. Yes, there are some interesting ideas in wingpanel, and I'd encourage experimentation and discussion here. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 12:35, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > On 22/12/10 04:53, Frederik Nnaji wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-12-21 at 17:10 +0100, zekopeko wrote: > > > I think that a decent solution for 11.04 would be to create a > temporary workspace for the fullscreen app so that it shows in the > Expo (Workspace switcher) mode but once the app is un-fullscreen-ed it > would return to the workspace from which it originated (no fancy > animation transitions). Alt-Tab-ing while the fullscreen app is > focused would tab-between workspaces and not applications. If you > alt-tab while a non-fullscreen applications is focused (so you can see > the launcher and the panel) would tab between applications that are > currently open and the fullscreen apps. > > > they removed ALT+F2, so i'm not even sure they'll keep ALT+TAB. > > > Alt-F2 is just not yet implemented, it's filed as a bug and will get fixed. > Of course we'll retain Alt-TAB! > oops, ok, i shoulda looked in launchpad first! thanks for the wake-up-call ;) *Close, MaxVert, Fullscreen Mode* > in a recent thread, i suggested to add a button to the window controls: > fullscreen. This, because many users don't even know what fullscreen mode > is, except for in movie players.. they learn it on youtube, where there is a > more than obvious "fullscreen" button, and start looking for such a button > in totem, vlc etc.. > > > The issue then is to figure out how to get OUT of fullscreen :-) > with F11 for keyboard, and with a client side control for mouse. All apps that i know of do it that way, e.g. OOo, Firefox, Chromium etc. > The approach we are taking is reversible gestures, where a particular > gesture gets you into a fullscreen situation, and reversing the gesture (I > wave my hands furiously ;-)) gets you out. > That's a scalable concept, the right direction, i believe. F11 to enable/disable Fullscreen Mode is reversible, but that's only Keyboard. Nevertheless, the implementation must happen inside the client, as far as i understand the logic and command hierarchy of this. A client e.g. that doesn't support full screen should never accept F11 in the first place! Another thing about client side Fullscreen Mode design is that every client will choose a different way to focus on content in Fullscreen mode. Fullscreen Mode is so much more than the name gives to us: it is actually the one mode, in which an application reduces its buttonry and chrome clutter to an absolute minimum to focus on the most essential functionality. In a movie player e.g. this would be the moving picture, no mouse, no buttons at all, no thing else. I call that "Theatre Mode". In a photo viewer it's pretty much the same. Apps will need to decide for themselves, how they would like to appear in Fullscreen Mode. I know Compiz can maximize every window to fill the screen, but that is not the same experience. "hide panels + remove window decoration + maximize" is not the same as entering an application-specific Fullscreen Mode. Now that this is established, we can safely assume that the clients will add their own reversible way of leaving Fullscreen Mode with via mouse. Especially so, because it might be convenient to exit fullscreen in one applications by clicking an overlay in the top right corner, in an other application it might be much more convenient to place that control into the middle of the screen. That's why picking reversible gestures for activating and deactivating Fullscreen Mode is not the DE's or the WM's issue, it is a design task for the respective clients. > *Floating Indicators* > One could think of single icons popping up upon transient events top right > corner of a fullscreen window, provided i'm not set to "do not disturb". > But the visibility of single icons popping up above whatever content is > beneath them is low. > WingPanel is an excellent option here, it would only have to be > transparent, and it would have to know when it is above the content area of > an application in fullscreen mode. > > > Yes, there are some interesting ideas in wingpanel, and I'd encourage > experimentation and discussion here. > WingPanel rocks, and i have gnome-panel on autohide bottom right, expand=FALSE, since i have wingpanel running. If only it were semi-transparent! I'd want to get rid of the clock, too. I can't help the feeling, the clock belongs somewhere else than in my main indicator interaction zone.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:42 AM, Saleel Velankar wrote: > I'd want to get rid of the clock, too. I can't help the feeling, the clock >> belongs somewhere else than in my main indicator interaction zone.. > > > I am inclined to agree with this. For a few of my important tasks like > cramming for an exam, or banging out a paper the night before its due, I > find the presence of the clock helpful/essential. but most of the other time > it just something that takes up space. Its a bit like those overly technical > conky scripts people run on their desktop coughing up information that is > never used. The solution for me has been this: http://fav.me/d34oqkg. The > panel with the digitalclock plasmoid is set to let windows cover it, when I > am not working on timecrucial stuff. I make windows go below it only when > its important. Furthermore its not in a corner because I do not want to > accidentally make it pop up via fitt's law, but close enough to the corner > so that I can throw my mouse down in the corner and then move left. > -- Saleel ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
