Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

On 05. feb. 2012 20:44, Marco Kirchberger wrote:

Hi,
I think if we want to replace the old menu with the HUD we need a kind 
of hierarchical structures.
Otherwise you have no option to get familiar with the functions of an 
application.




I don't see the HUD as a replacement for menus at all. But something 
needs to be done about the menus. Of that there can be no doubt. But if 
the goal is to redesign the menus, then that needs to be the main 
discussion; not how the HUD can be redesigned into becoming a menu 
replacement. I actually think the HUD should stay as non-dominant as 
possible, providing hints about available actions, without blocking too 
much of what's behind. It's in the name; it's supposed to be a Heads-Up 
Display.


To me, the two primary reasons why menus needs to be redesigned and 
fixed is that they are very hostile to users with reduced eyesight or 
control of their hands, such as patients of Parkinson's disease. (but a 
lot of people have problems with this for varying reasons) As a 
replacement for menus, I would rather have something like an AppMap, 
which would be an overlay similar to the keyboard shortcuts overview. 
The menus would not be seen at all when not in use, and would be 
accessed using a new button on the window titlebar. It would not require 
any space on the screen while not in use, but utilize bigger parts when 
it is. And like the keyboard shortcuts overview, it would have a nice, 
big header to show what window it belongs to, such as «Thunderbird 
Composer» This makes it a better overview than the classic menubars. It 
also reduces the chance of traversing into the wrong submenu while mouse 
traveling. This can be a problem for people who are not accustomed to 
using the mouse, have issues with fine muscle movements, etc. It might 
also make menus less of an extremely horrendous ordeal when using a 
touchpad. The ability to increase font size on hover would help to 
reduce the problems faced by those with reduced eye sight. For larger 
applications, the app-map could be scrollable.


In any case, I think replacing the menus is very important. It is 
important enough not to be added almost as an after-thought. It is an 
important subject in its own right. Since keyboard shortcuts, toolbars 
and menus are all just different ways of interacting with an 
applications actions, they are related. That doesn't mean that accessing 
shortcuts and displaying menus should be considered parts of the same 
problem. If the new menu style -- whatever that might turn out to be -- 
could be combined with the HUD in some way, that might be nice. But I 
don't think it should be a primary goal.


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Marco Kirchberger]

Hi,
I think if we want to replace the old menu with the HUD we need a kind
of hierarchical structures.
Otherwise you have no option to get familiar with the functions of an
application.



Am 02.02.2012 10:20, schrieb Christian Giordano:
> Hi Jimmy, ...
>
> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:44 PM, topdownjimmy  wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>> When the HUD first appears, menu items could be displayed beneath the
>> search box:
>>
>> |__|
>> File
>> Edit
>> Tools
>> Window
>> Help
>>
> This could probably help migration from menus but probably shouldn't be a
> long term solution...
>
> Perhaps breadcrumbs could be used to indicate hierarchy:
>> |__|
>> Menu > Tools
>> *Preferences*   Menu 2   Menu 3
>> Pref 1
>> Pref 2
>> Pref 3
>>
>> When search results are displayed, menu items in the hierarchy could
>> be clickable:
>>
>> |_Tools_|
>> Tools > Preferences > Pref 1
>> Tools > Preferences > Pref 2
>> Tools > Preferences > Pref 3
>>
>> (Clicking the word "Tools" or "Preferences" in the above results would
>> send you to the hierarchy view above.)
>
> ...because I reckon the purpose of the HUD is also removing/hiding
> hierarchical structures, this seems to be conflicting.
>
>
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts, chr
>
>
>
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Re: [Ayatana] HUD

[Matt Richardson]

+1 for keyboard only control, the whole concept makes no sense without that.

However, the issues with finding the "insert manual brake..." command 
may be because in this instance it is "break" not "brake"
That highlights another issue though. What happens when the user 
misspells words? should we use a spell-checker to guess possible 
alternatives to the words used?
The trouble here is that brake is spelt correctly, it is just the wrong 
word.


Does anyone know if the HUD uses Levenshtein distance?
If so I would have thought that "insert manual brake..." should find 
"insert manual break..."


Matt


On 02/02/12 19:04, supernova wrote:

Hi all, I'm testing hud with libreoffice. It is a great idea, even if
doesn't work properly. Infact for example it is difficult to ask it
"insert manual brake...". Surely it should be addressed to the
commands in libreoffice.

Another important question: in my opinion HUD is great since it allows
to use keyboard, withoud using mouse. So it NEEDS that with arrows up
down you can select items. How can it be usefull if, after pressing
ALT and writing a choice, you need to put your hand ouf from the
keyboard, take the mouse, move the mouse-arrow, select, again put your
hand on the keyboard? It is very inefficient in my opinion.

Hope to help,
Supernova

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[Ayatana] HUD

[supernova]

Hi all, I'm testing hud with libreoffice. It is a great idea, even if
doesn't work properly. Infact for example it is difficult to ask it
"insert manual brake...". Surely it should be addressed to the
commands in libreoffice.

Another important question: in my opinion HUD is great since it allows
to use keyboard, withoud using mouse. So it NEEDS that with arrows up
down you can select items. How can it be usefull if, after pressing
ALT and writing a choice, you need to put your hand ouf from the
keyboard, take the mouse, move the mouse-arrow, select, again put your
hand on the keyboard? It is very inefficient in my opinion.

Hope to help,
Supernova

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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Christian Giordano]

Hi Jimmy, ...

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 4:44 PM, topdownjimmy  wrote:

> ...
>
> When the HUD first appears, menu items could be displayed beneath the
> search box:
>
> |__|
> File
> Edit
> Tools
> Window
> Help
>

This could probably help migration from menus but probably shouldn't be a
long term solution...

Perhaps breadcrumbs could be used to indicate hierarchy:
>
> |__|
> Menu > Tools
> *Preferences*   Menu 2   Menu 3
> Pref 1
> Pref 2
> Pref 3
>
> When search results are displayed, menu items in the hierarchy could
> be clickable:
>
> |_Tools_|
> Tools > Preferences > Pref 1
> Tools > Preferences > Pref 2
> Tools > Preferences > Pref 3
>
> (Clicking the word "Tools" or "Preferences" in the above results would
> send you to the hierarchy view above.)


...because I reckon the purpose of the HUD is also removing/hiding
hierarchical structures, this seems to be conflicting.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts, chr
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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[topdownjimmy]

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:17 PM, Marco Kirchberger
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
> yes I absolutely agree with you that is for 12.04 to radical but in
> generally with HUD you have the possibility.
> I think it is important that the users have both possibilities. HUD command
> search and traditional menu (only a other view).
> I created a small picture how I imagine this.
> http://ubuntuone.com/51SemFRa4xFWiWEuwRzx9W
> Sorry for the bad quality but I'm no gimp genius.
>
> regards,
> BlueCase
>
>
> Am 25.01.2012 16:37, schrieb Jo-Erlend Schinstad:
>
> Den 25. jan. 2012 16:03, skrev Marco Kirchberger:
>
> 1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a button.
>
>
> That would be way too radical for 12.04. That won't happen, or at least I
> hope so. The last thing we need now, is large and sudden changes. What we
> need now, is for new options to be added, for people to try it out, talk
> about them and then we see what works. Only when we know that things work in
> real life, should it be used by default and things should not be removed at
> the same time as something new is added, unless it is absolutely necessary
> because of a conflict. And in those cases, it shouldn't be done in a hurry.
>
> In fact, though I love the HUD as an idea, I'm not sure I'd recommend that
> it be used by default in 12.04. 2-3 months isn't that much time to test a
> radical new idea, and pushing poorly tested, highly visible things in an LTS
> is a gamble.
>
> I like your ideas, and I think it would be better to wait until 12.10 to add
> it by default. By then it should be well tested and it could have a more
> complete feature set. Of course, the decision is not mine, but that's how I
> feel about it. :)
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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I agree with Marco's point about displaying the application's normal
menu structure upon opening HUD. It seems to me this would solve the
discoverability problem that everyone is worried about.

When the HUD first appears, menu items could be displayed beneath the
search box:

|__|
File
Edit
Tools
Window
Help

When one of these top-level menu items is clicked, all top-level menu
items could become tabs, with second-level menu items underneath:

|__|
*File*   Edit   Tools   Window   Help
New
Save
Save as
Close
Exit

Perhaps breadcrumbs could be used to indicate hierarchy:

|__|
Menu > Tools
*Preferences*   Menu 2   Menu 3
Pref 1
Pref 2
Pref 3

When search results are displayed, menu items in the hierarchy could
be clickable:

|_Tools_|
Tools > Preferences > Pref 1
Tools > Preferences > Pref 2
Tools > Preferences > Pref 3

(Clicking the word "Tools" or "Preferences" in the above results would
send you to the hierarchy view above.)

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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Marco Kirchberger]

Hi Christian,
That could be work in different ways.
My first idea was that it should work like nautilus display the folder 
path on the top when you navigate through your folders.

e.g. Edit > Past As
But I think this need to much space when you have a menu path with more 
as 2 or 3 levels.
Meanwhile I think better is to display following structure: Home (Back 
to Top Menu Level) | Back (only visible from level 3 and higher) | 
Current Menu Level (e.g. "Past As")


Also I made a failure in my picture. The Button "Show Fav" should not 
show the favourites. the favourites I already have in my example in the 
panel or top bar.
The button should show by clicking the most used or history of used menu 
points. Perhaps also both.


Additional idea from yesterday evening. I think it would usefully if you 
give ever menu point and level a number.

Eg. Edit (Nr. 2) > Past (Nr 3) or File (Nr. 1) > Save (Nr. 2)
The users could use this numbering to have for every menu point a short cut.
Eg. User press: Alt > 2 > 3 > Enter (HUD should update the view during 
typing)
A benefit of this would be that also menu points of an application which 
have by default no shortcut enabled you can upgrade this over the HUD.


I think in this way you gave the users all possibilities navigate 
through the application menu with every input device.


regards,
BlueCase



Am 30.01.2012 11:58, schrieb Christian Giordano:

Hi Marco, how would the breadcrumb (Level 1 > Level 2 > Level 3) work?

Best, chr


On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Marco Kirchberger 
mailto:ma...@e-kirchberger.de>> wrote:



Hi,
yes I absolutely agree with you that is for 12.04 to radical but
in generally with HUD you have the possibility.
I think it is important that the users have both possibilities.
HUD command search and traditional menu (only a other view).
I created a small picture how I imagine this.
http://ubuntuone.com/51SemFRa4xFWiWEuwRzx9W
Sorry for the bad quality but I'm no gimp genius.

regards,
BlueCase


Am 25.01.2012 16:37, schrieb Jo-Erlend Schinstad:

Den 25. jan. 2012 16:03, skrev Marco Kirchberger:

1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a
button.


That would be way too radical for 12.04. That won't happen, or at
least I hope so. The last thing we need now, is large and sudden
changes. What we need now, is for new options to be added, for
people to try it out, talk about them and then we see what works.
Only when we know that things work in real life, should it be
used by default and things should not be removed at the same time
as something new is added, unless it is absolutely necessary
because of a conflict. And in those cases, it shouldn't be done
in a hurry.

In fact, though I love the HUD as an idea, I'm not sure I'd
recommend that it be used by default in 12.04. 2-3 months isn't
that much time to test a radical new idea, and pushing poorly
tested, highly visible things in an LTS is a gamble.

I like your ideas, and I think it would be better to wait until
12.10 to add it by default. By then it should be well tested and
it could have a more complete feature set. Of course, the
decision is not mine, but that's how I feel about it. :)

Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Christian Giordano]

Hi Marco, how would the breadcrumb (Level 1 > Level 2 > Level 3) work?

Best, chr


On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Marco Kirchberger
wrote:

>
> Hi,
> yes I absolutely agree with you that is for 12.04 to radical but in
> generally with HUD you have the possibility.
> I think it is important that the users have both possibilities. HUD
> command search and traditional menu (only a other view).
> I created a small picture how I imagine this.
> http://ubuntuone.com/51SemFRa4xFWiWEuwRzx9W
> Sorry for the bad quality but I'm no gimp genius.
>
> regards,
> BlueCase
>
>
> Am 25.01.2012 16:37, schrieb Jo-Erlend Schinstad:
>
> Den 25. jan. 2012 16:03, skrev Marco Kirchberger:
>
> 1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a button.
>
>
> That would be way too radical for 12.04. That won't happen, or at least I
> hope so. The last thing we need now, is large and sudden changes. What we
> need now, is for new options to be added, for people to try it out, talk
> about them and then we see what works. Only when we know that things work
> in real life, should it be used by default and things should not be removed
> at the same time as something new is added, unless it is absolutely
> necessary because of a conflict. And in those cases, it shouldn't be done
> in a hurry.
>
> In fact, though I love the HUD as an idea, I'm not sure I'd recommend that
> it be used by default in 12.04. 2-3 months isn't that much time to test a
> radical new idea, and pushing poorly tested, highly visible things in an
> LTS is a gamble.
>
> I like your ideas, and I think it would be better to wait until 12.10 to
> add it by default. By then it should be well tested and it could have a
> more complete feature set. Of course, the decision is not mine, but that's
> how I feel about it. :)
>
> Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>
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[Ayatana] HUD shouldn't be only for searching but also for finding

[Michal Strba]

Hello!

The idea of HUD is good, but currently it's totally incomplete.
Look at the Ubuntu Dash and you can see what it can do. I can not only 
searching for apps and files (or music, etc) but you can also find 
everything (except files). You can go for example to Games and see all 
games you've installed. So when you wanna play a game, you don't have to 
type "game", "3d", "platformer", "strategy" or something, you can 
directly look at everything in the Games category.
Same thing is the menu. I confusing to have only a search bar and search 
for a things I want. I also need to view whole the menu (not really 
whole of course).

So HUD should inspire by the Dash and improve its "skills".

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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Marco Kirchberger]

Hi,
yes I absolutely agree with you that is for 12.04 to radical but in 
generally with HUD you have the possibility.
I think it is important that the users have both possibilities. HUD 
command search and traditional menu (only a other view).

I created a small picture how I imagine this.
http://ubuntuone.com/51SemFRa4xFWiWEuwRzx9W
Sorry for the bad quality but I'm no gimp genius.

regards,
BlueCase


Am 25.01.2012 16:37, schrieb Jo-Erlend Schinstad:

Den 25. jan. 2012 16:03, skrev Marco Kirchberger:

1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a button.


That would be way too radical for 12.04. That won't happen, or at 
least I hope so. The last thing we need now, is large and sudden 
changes. What we need now, is for new options to be added, for people 
to try it out, talk about them and then we see what works. Only when 
we know that things work in real life, should it be used by default 
and things should not be removed at the same time as something new is 
added, unless it is absolutely necessary because of a conflict. And in 
those cases, it shouldn't be done in a hurry.


In fact, though I love the HUD as an idea, I'm not sure I'd recommend 
that it be used by default in 12.04. 2-3 months isn't that much time 
to test a radical new idea, and pushing poorly tested, highly visible 
things in an LTS is a gamble.


I like your ideas, and I think it would be better to wait until 12.10 
to add it by default. By then it should be well tested and it could 
have a more complete feature set. Of course, the decision is not mine, 
but that's how I feel about it. :)


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Omar B .]

I also don't generally think we should completely substitute the traditional 
menus.

Let's think for a second how would a company like Apple would do this. I bet 
they would add a little search Icon next to their global menu which would then 
open a search-box, just like pressing ALT opens the search on the HUD.

Anyway, that's my opinion on how they would implement it if they were to copy 
it (yes, for competitors am pretty sure will be worth copying :D, so dont be 
surprised if it happens).

So that's what i think. HUD should complement (at least for now till they 
refine the experience and make it so good that the majority will use it more 
than the traditional menu). And maybe we could have a windicator with a search 
icon next to the global menu for mouse user discoverability.

Anyway, for apps with lots of options and complicated menus or hidden advanced 
options, this is awesome. In fact there were some experiments from the Waterloo 
edu labs with Gimp to do just this and make it very easy to get started with:

http://www.adaptablegimp.org/

I must say the difference for a new user using Adaptable gimp is huge and HUD 
can bring this to almost all apps.

> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:03:56 +0100
> From: ma...@e-kirchberger.de
> To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas
> 
> Hi,
> I read today about new HUD for Unity and I think the idea is brilliant.
> But at the moment its only orientated to search menu entries.
> In my opinion the HUD have the potential to cover both. Command Search 
> (Keyboard) and menu structure (Mouse Control)
> Here some ideas that should work:
> 1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a button. 
> If the user click on the button or hover the HUD should open. Also keep 
> the possibility to start the HUD with "Alt". So you don't have anymore 
> the problem that applications with a lot of menu entries overlap with 
> the app indicators (Gimp, LibreOffice).
> 2. The default view of the HUD should you show the normal menu structure 
> of a application. So you can search a command by clicking through the 
> structure or search by typing.
> 3. Add the possibility that commands of a application could be add to a 
> favourite list. Every item of this list should be shown as a icon on the 
> right side of the HUD "Start Button". So you give the users the 
> possibility to create a own shortcut list for every application.
> 
> regards,
> BlueCase
> 
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Re: [Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

Den 25. jan. 2012 16:03, skrev Marco Kirchberger:

1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a button.


That would be way too radical for 12.04. That won't happen, or at least 
I hope so. The last thing we need now, is large and sudden changes. What 
we need now, is for new options to be added, for people to try it out, 
talk about them and then we see what works. Only when we know that 
things work in real life, should it be used by default and things should 
not be removed at the same time as something new is added, unless it is 
absolutely necessary because of a conflict. And in those cases, it 
shouldn't be done in a hurry.


In fact, though I love the HUD as an idea, I'm not sure I'd recommend 
that it be used by default in 12.04. 2-3 months isn't that much time to 
test a radical new idea, and pushing poorly tested, highly visible 
things in an LTS is a gamble.


I like your ideas, and I think it would be better to wait until 12.10 to 
add it by default. By then it should be well tested and it could have a 
more complete feature set. Of course, the decision is not mine, but 
that's how I feel about it. :)


Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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[Ayatana] HUD design ideas

[Marco Kirchberger]

Hi,
I read today about new HUD for Unity and I think the idea is brilliant.
But at the moment its only orientated to search menu entries.
In my opinion the HUD have the potential to cover both. Command Search 
(Keyboard) and menu structure (Mouse Control)

Here some ideas that should work:
1. Remove the whole menu from the Top Bar and replace it with a button. 
If the user click on the button or hover the HUD should open. Also keep 
the possibility to start the HUD with "Alt". So you don't have anymore 
the problem that applications with a lot of menu entries overlap with 
the app indicators (Gimp, LibreOffice).
2. The default view of the HUD should you show the normal menu structure 
of a application. So you can search a command by clicking through the 
structure or search by typing.
3. Add the possibility that commands of a application could be add to a 
favourite list. Every item of this list should be shown as a icon on the 
right side of the HUD "Start Button". So you give the users the 
possibility to create a own shortcut list for every application.


regards,
BlueCase

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[Ayatana] HUD result highlighting

[Matt Richardson]

I LOVE the new HUD idea but after watching the video, one thought occurs.
At the moment, exact matches for the search string are shown in bold to 
highlight their occurrence.
IMO the final part of the result string (the actual name of the option 
being used) should follow this 'exact match' highlighting as it 
currently does but also be perhaps in a larger font size. Not hugely 
bigger, perhaps just 2pts bigger.
This would highlight the actual name of the option being searched for, 
which is particularly important if the desired result did not come up as 
the top one. This would allow users to learn the names of the options 
they use frequently and thus produce more relevant results in subsequent 
searches.


I suppose, as ever, care must be taken to prevent this from becoming a 
distraction rather than helping.


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