Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-28 Thread Mark Shuttleworth
On 28/06/10 03:34, Tyler Brainerd wrote:

 On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Allan Caeg allanc...@gmail.com
 mailto:allanc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Will indicator-network feel integrated with Indicator Applet and
 Indicator Session? If indicator-network is right beside Indicator
 Applet, will it follow that mouse hover menu activation will jump
 between the two panel applets?

 As for the clock applet, does anyone here know if it will work the
 same way as indicator-network?


 That is the design intent, yes.


If you are running only Ayatana indicators, then yes you will be able to
have a menu only experience end-to-end. For 10.10 that will mean using
connection manager, which will still have rough edges, and the clock
indicator, which is relatively simplistic. But it will still feel
tighter and more unified than a hodge-podge of panel applets, so that's
how I'll be using it :-)

Mark


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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-28 Thread Martin Owens
On Mon, 2010-06-28 at 07:45 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote:
 If you are running only Ayatana indicators, then yes you will be able
 to have a menu only experience end-to-end. For 10.10 that will mean
 using connection manager, which will still have rough edges, and the
 clock indicator, which is relatively simplistic. But it will still
 feel tighter and more unified than a hodge-podge of panel applets, so
 that's how I'll be using it :-)

So long as it has 24 hour clock, seconds and an ability to display a
basically a custom datetime format of my choosing through some non-ui
configuration.

I really like iso date/time.

Although I hear it'll unravel all the functionality for the evolution
calendar and task list as well as the handy locations and ability to
change locations from that menu.

Is that true?

Martin,


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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-28 Thread Mark Shuttleworth
On 28/06/10 08:33, Martin Owens wrote:
 Although I hear it'll unravel all the functionality for the evolution
 calendar and task list as well as the handy locations and ability to
 change locations from that menu.

In due course, similar capabilities will be added. But for the moment
it's minimalist.



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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-28 Thread Conscious User

 In due course, similar capabilities will be added. But for the moment
 it's minimalist.

Here's me hoping that those similar capabilities will be implemented
in a neat d-bus service way which follows an app-independent protocol,
thus closing one of the most common complaints against the current
clock, which is being too tied to Evolution.



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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-28 Thread Mark Shuttleworth
On 28/06/10 08:53, Conscious User wrote:
   
 In due course, similar capabilities will be added. But for the moment
 it's minimalist.
 
 Here's me hoping that those similar capabilities will be implemented
 in a neat d-bus service way which follows an app-independent protocol,
 thus closing one of the most common complaints against the current
 clock, which is being too tied to Evolution.
   

Agreed!



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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-28 Thread Frederik Nnaji
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 12:15, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote:

 On 28/06/10 08:53, Conscious User wrote:
 
  In due course, similar capabilities will be added. But for the moment
  it's minimalist.
 
  Here's me hoping that those similar capabilities will be implemented
  in a neat d-bus service way which follows an app-independent protocol,
  thus closing one of the most common complaints against the current
  clock, which is being too tied to Evolution.
 

 Agreed!


+1

now that someone said Evolution, let me suggest something to make the
indicators more harmonious ;)

Messaging Menu and MeMenu are struggling not to duplicate each other's work,
both are looking to develop their respective individual identities.

I suggest, give them identities:
MeMenu stays responsible for Me-related stuff such as account settings that
are tied to it, and it should handle instantly relevant stuff such as VoIP
phone calls, Instant Chat Messaging and Presence.
Messaging Menu does all that has to do with non-instant messaging, such as
broadcast, email and News. Especially the broadcast field from the MeMenu
rather belongs to the Messaging Menu, if you ask me.

This way we would keep a clear line between the two menus, i would
intuitively find what i'm looking for, since i know that one topic/category
is covered in one menu, another topic/category is covered in the other menu.
All i need to remember now is the indicator applet icon that stands for
non-instant messaging, and the other one that stands for what would
encompass the instant stuff..
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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-27 Thread Mark Shuttleworth
On 25/06/10 08:49, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
 From what I understand, a lot of these changes (for instance, the new
 network manager) are and will continue to show up in the Unity
 interface, before eventually making their way over to Desktop.

You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
too, it just won't be the default in 10.10. But if you drop NM manually
in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
(depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
only indicators in 10.10 desktop).

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-27 Thread Frederik Nnaji
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 12:25, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote:

 On 25/06/10 08:49, Tyler Brainerd wrote:
  From what I understand, a lot of these changes (for instance, the new
  network manager) are and will continue to show up in the Unity
  interface, before eventually making their way over to Desktop.

 You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
 too, it just won't be the default in 10.10.


Yeah, Connman uses NotifyOSD much better.


 But if you drop NM manually
 in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
 (depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
 we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
 only indicators in 10.10 desktop).


Can't wait for the Meercat ;)
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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-27 Thread Tyler Brainerd
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Allan Caeg allanc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Will indicator-network feel integrated with Indicator Applet and Indicator
 Session? If indicator-network is right beside Indicator Applet, will it
 follow that mouse hover menu activation will jump between the two panel
 applets?

 As for the clock applet, does anyone here know if it will work the same way
 as indicator-network?


That is the design intent, yes.





 On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.comwrote:

 You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop
 too, it just won't be the default in 10.10. But if you drop NM manually
 in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel
 (depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but
 we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with
 only indicators in 10.10 desktop).

 Mark




 --
 Regards,
 Allan
 http://live.gnome.org/AllanCaeg

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[Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-25 Thread Allan Caeg
Hello everyone,

New panel applets were introduced to the newer versions of Ubuntu. They
improved the experience, because of their features, but they also created
some inconsistencies in the GNOME Panel. If I remember correctly, it used to
be that only the Menu Bar had associated elements (Applications, Places, and
System buttons). With the new Indicator Applet and Indicator Applet Session,
some icons on the right end of the top panel behave differently.

There is now a lack of harmony, which I described here
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9033/ayatanapanelissue.png . To fix this
issue, we can change the way things are rendered, change their positioning,
tweak how they behave, etc.

What are your thoughts?
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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-25 Thread Tyler Brainerd
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:17 AM, Allan Caeg allanc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello everyone,

 New panel applets were introduced to the newer versions of Ubuntu. They
 improved the experience, because of their features, but they also created
 some inconsistencies in the GNOME Panel. If I remember correctly, it used to
 be that only the Menu Bar had associated elements (Applications, Places, and
 System buttons). With the new Indicator Applet and Indicator Applet Session,
 some icons on the right end of the top panel behave differently.

 There is now a lack of harmony, which I described here
 http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9033/ayatanapanelissue.png . To fix
 this issue, we can change the way things are rendered, change their
 positioning, tweak how they behave, etc.

 What are your thoughts?


This separation is addressed in the fact that they are getting rid of the
notification area, moving all icons to the indicator applet. The clock
applet has a new version in the works as well.





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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-25 Thread Conscious User


 New panel applets were introduced to the newer versions of
 Ubuntu. They improved the experience, because of their
 features, but they also created some inconsistencies in the
 GNOME Panel. If I remember correctly, it used to be that only
 the Menu Bar had associated elements (Applications, Places,
 and System buttons). With the new Indicator Applet and
 Indicator Applet Session, some icons on the right end of the
 top panel behave differently. 
 
 
 There is now a lack of harmony, which I described
 here http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9033/ayatanapanelissue.png . 
 To fix this issue, we can change the way things are rendered, change their 
 positioning, tweak how they behave, etc.
 
 
 What are your thoughts?
 
 
 This separation is addressed in the fact that they are getting rid of
 the notification area, moving all icons to the indicator applet. The
 clock applet has a new version in the works as well.


Yes, indicator-datetime is coming, but the death of the notification
area depends on larger adoption of libappindicator and this can take
a very long time, and several Ubuntu releases.

Until it happens, separating the notification area more blatantly,
like it's being proposed for Gnome (they are doing experiments
with moving non-system icons to the bottom right corner), might
be a good idea.

If I remember correctly, there was a design principle stating
that if things are different, make them very different because
small differences look like mistakes. That sounds like the
issues Allan is pointing: because the things in the corner *look*
like they have similar behavior, it is frustrating for the
user discovering that they do *not*.




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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-25 Thread Tyler Brainerd
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Allan Caeg allanc...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com
  wrote:

  This separation is addressed in the fact that they are getting rid of the
 notification area, moving all icons to the indicator applet. The clock
 applet has a new version in the works as well.


 Thanks, Tyler. I didn't know about the new clock applet. I hope, it
 addresses the issue

 Me too. :D

From what I understand, a lot of these changes (for instance, the new
network manager) are and will continue to show up in the Unity interface,
before eventually making their way over to Desktop.




 On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Conscious User consciousu...@aol.comwrote:

 If I remember correctly, there was a design principle stating
 that if things are different, make them very different because
 small differences look like mistakes. That sounds like the
 issues Allan is pointing: because the things in the corner *look*
 like they have similar behavior, it is frustrating for the
 user discovering that they do *not*.


 That's right!

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Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets

2010-06-25 Thread Jorge O. Castro
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:17 AM, Allan Caeg allanc...@gmail.com wrote:
 What are your thoughts?

Your analysis is spot on!

There's a package called indicator-applet-complete in universe that
will unify all that stuff. Just install it and indicator-datetime and
remove the old clock applet and it'll be be all one nice scrobbable
area. (Tip: I hit Super-S then use my arrow keys when I want to
interact with the applets quickly)

When indicator-datetime is more complete we'll be able to switch to it
this way by default, it was too unfinished to be able to ship that way
in Lucid.

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