Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
I may be walking into this one blind, but the Alt-Tab implementation in Unity now (the new one) supports sorting by focus order or by launcher order as a side effect of the fact that the icons come in sorted by launcher order out of the launcher model. This is of course not exposed as an option however is completely available in the source (just comment out the line that does the sort). I am not sure if this is what is being discussed or not. I tried it out however and it is kind of nice. On 07/29/2011 02:42 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 28/07/11 22:20, Evan Huus wrote: Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X' all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?' Then you might like the Super+n key combinations, holding down Super (the Windows key on many laptops) and pressing 0-9 will launch/switch to that launcher. Hold down Super for a while to see the actual number. I would also be happy to try a patch which used Super+TAB the way we've discussed, tabbing through the launcher. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
On 28/07/11 22:20, Evan Huus wrote: Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X' all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?' Then you might like the Super+n key combinations, holding down Super (the Windows key on many laptops) and pressing 0-9 will launch/switch to that launcher. Hold down Super for a while to see the actual number. I would also be happy to try a patch which used Super+TAB the way we've discussed, tabbing through the launcher. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
That's an excellent idea, binding Super+TAB to spatial program order. Ability to sort through both logically and spatially are going to find their respective uses. I would love to see it become a reality. (I need to hurry up and learn some languages) I want to bring up a slightly offtopic issue, that is switching between windows of the same application. Yes, we do have tabs, but they still leave much to be desired - there's no way to drag and drop from one folder to another tabbed in a Nautilus window, for example. So going by the Nautilus example, if I'm sorting through a lot of files between a no. of folders it'd be pretty nice if I could keep my chat window out of the way when I decided to move something. Admittedly, that isn't a very good example, but I think a few of us are going to be able to think up of a few cases when we want to be able to dig through the windows of the same application. Anything planned about this? On 29 July 2011 10:42, Mark Shuttleworth mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.comwrote: On 28/07/11 22:20, Evan Huus wrote: Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X' all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?' Then you might like the Super+n key combinations, holding down Super (the Windows key on many laptops) and pressing 0-9 will launch/switch to that launcher. Hold down Super for a while to see the actual number. I would also be happy to try a patch which used Super+TAB the way we've discussed, tabbing through the launcher. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
On 29 July 2011 08:42, Mark Shuttleworth mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.com wrote: Then you might like the Super+n key combinations, holding down Super (the Windows key on many laptops) and pressing 0-9 will launch/switch to that launcher. Hold down Super for a while to see the actual number. This is something I _really_ love. If that could be coupled with alt+num switching of windows in the spread view, I think it would be even better. For instance, if you have your terminal on the third tile and you have many open terminal windows, then you'd press super+33 to display them all, and then alt+1 to select the first one. If you'd also be able to reorganize them, I think that would be a massive usability improvement for heavy multitaskers. I would also be happy to try a patch which used Super+TAB the way we've discussed, tabbing through the launcher. That also sounds logical and nice. Jo-Erlend ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
So I saw the video for Oneiric's Alt-Tab on OMG Ubuntu and I was a bit disappointed. It just seemed like icons with a bit of the coverflow tilting. It's probably too late to implement now, but I had the idea where Alt-Tab would make the launcher visible, non running applications would be desaturated and in the main view the window(s) for only the highlighted app would show (expose view if mulitple windows). This way, it stays consistent with look at the launcher for running applications and provides previews to the content of said applications. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
I love this. It really just makes alt-tab a keybinding for features we already have. Very clean, very simple, and enhances the idioms we've already started developing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
Sure, nice idea. +1 2011/7/28 Alex Launi alex.la...@canonical.com I love this. It really just makes alt-tab a keybinding for features we already have. Very clean, very simple, and enhances the idioms we've already started developing. __**_ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/**ListHelphttps://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
Great Idea. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@canonical.com wrote: I love this. It really just makes alt-tab a keybinding for features we already have. Very clean, very simple, and enhances the idioms we've already started developing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Owais Lone he...@owaislone.org http://www.owaislone.org ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
It's a lovely idea, and three consecutive designers have dashed themselves on the rocks trying to get it right. I'd be thrilled if someone could do better! Here's what we found each time we tried it: *The launcher is spatial, the alt-tab is logical.* The alt-tab works best when it is a stack, with the most recently used stuff first. Toggling between apps is always a single alt-tab, and moving between a small group of apps scales up accordingly, alt-tab-tab-tab gets you to the third most recently used app/window. If you want to jump more than one step back in the stack, you want to be able to see where you are going. And this is the problem with the launcher, in order to give a sense of trajectory, you would need to reorder the items on the launcher. Which breaks people's sense of where things are and makes the launcher seem arbitrary. On the other hand, you could jump from item to item, but then you are not providing any clue as to where the next tab will send you. Which feels sucky (we tried it :-)). So, it's an interesting exercise and a very attractive idea, and if someone can make it work I would embrace the patch, but I think it's one of those attractive-but-wrong sinkholes. Prove me wrong :-) Mark On 28/07/11 15:52, Owas Lone wrote: Great Idea. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Alex Launialex.la...@canonical.com wrote: I love this. It really just makes alt-tab a keybinding for features we already have. Very clean, very simple, and enhances the idioms we've already started developing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
First of all, I'm no programmer. Second of all, I'm probably missing something. Third of all, how about making Toggles the Backlight Mode default? That way, it will be clear on first sight what alt-tab selections there are, especially if it only cycles through open programs. The white highlight used when keyboard focus is on the bar could be used (as well as showing the program window). An alternative would be to use the Scale plugin, in effect adding extra keyboard controls. Alt-Tab would scale all windows and cycle through them; to show which window is highlighted, use Zoom Window and Window Title from the Scale Addons plugin. This has the advantage of avoiding extra UI items or re-arranging the launcher bar while being somewhat intuitive. The problems would be how this would work on low-spec computers, and the work that would need to be done with Compiz (e.g. changing the behaviour of bindings, adding new functions, making Scale arrange windows in order of recent use c.). On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 18:04 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: It's a lovely idea, and three consecutive designers have dashed themselves on the rocks trying to get it right. I'd be thrilled if someone could do better! Here's what we found each time we tried it: The launcher is spatial, the alt-tab is logical. The alt-tab works best when it is a stack, with the most recently used stuff first. Toggling between apps is always a single alt-tab, and moving between a small group of apps scales up accordingly, alt-tab-tab-tab gets you to the third most recently used app/window. If you want to jump more than one step back in the stack, you want to be able to see where you are going. And this is the problem with the launcher, in order to give a sense of trajectory, you would need to reorder the items on the launcher. Which breaks people's sense of where things are and makes the launcher seem arbitrary. On the other hand, you could jump from item to item, but then you are not providing any clue as to where the next tab will send you. Which feels sucky (we tried it :-)). So, it's an interesting exercise and a very attractive idea, and if someone can make it work I would embrace the patch, but I think it's one of those attractive-but-wrong sinkholes. Prove me wrong :-) Mark On 28/07/11 15:52, Owas Lone wrote: Great Idea. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Alex Launi alex.la...@canonical.com wrote: I love this. It really just makes alt-tab a keybinding for features we already have. Very clean, very simple, and enhances the idioms we've already started developing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Mark Shuttleworth mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.com wrote: It's a lovely idea, and three consecutive designers have dashed themselves on the rocks trying to get it right. I'd be thrilled if someone could do better! Here's what we found each time we tried it: The launcher is spatial, the alt-tab is logical. The alt-tab works best when it is a stack, with the most recently used stuff first. Toggling between apps is always a single alt-tab, and moving between a small group of apps scales up accordingly, alt-tab-tab-tab gets you to the third most recently used app/window. If you want to jump more than one step back in the stack, you want to be able to see where you are going. And this is the problem with the launcher, in order to give a sense of trajectory, you would need to reorder the items on the launcher. Which breaks people's sense of where things are and makes the launcher seem arbitrary. On the other hand, you could jump from item to item, but then you are not providing any clue as to where the next tab will send you. Which feels sucky (we tried it :-)). So, it's an interesting exercise and a very attractive idea, and if someone can make it work I would embrace the patch, but I think it's one of those attractive-but-wrong sinkholes. Prove me wrong :-) Mark This really surprised me: I've always found traditional alt-tab annoying for exactly that reason. While the logical representation of a stack makes a lot of sense in theory, I find I can never keep track of what's where on it beyond the absolute top anyways. Whenever I use traditional alt-tab for more than an immediate switch to the most-recently-used, I have to stop, look at the icons, figure out how many times to press tab, and then do it, which is slow. If I just press tab until I see the icon I want highlighted, I tend to miss it, and have to cycle round again to find it. Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X' all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?' On the other hand, I do use a single alt-tab a lot, which would break if it was simply replaced by the spatial alternative. Maybe I'm unusual in this, or maybe a stack is still faster than spatial even though it feels slower. I dunno. I would be extremely interested if somebody did a usability and speed study on various window-switching methods though. Evan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 17:20 -0400, Evan Huus wrote: On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Mark Shuttleworth mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.com wrote: It's a lovely idea, and three consecutive designers have dashed themselves on the rocks trying to get it right. I'd be thrilled if someone could do better! Here's what we found each time we tried it: The launcher is spatial, the alt-tab is logical. The alt-tab works best when it is a stack, with the most recently used stuff first. Toggling between apps is always a single alt-tab, and moving between a small group of apps scales up accordingly, alt-tab-tab-tab gets you to the third most recently used app/window. If you want to jump more than one step back in the stack, you want to be able to see where you are going. And this is the problem with the launcher, in order to give a sense of trajectory, you would need to reorder the items on the launcher. Which breaks people's sense of where things are and makes the launcher seem arbitrary. On the other hand, you could jump from item to item, but then you are not providing any clue as to where the next tab will send you. Which feels sucky (we tried it :-)). So, it's an interesting exercise and a very attractive idea, and if someone can make it work I would embrace the patch, but I think it's one of those attractive-but-wrong sinkholes. Prove me wrong :-) Mark This really surprised me: I've always found traditional alt-tab annoying for exactly that reason. While the logical representation of a stack makes a lot of sense in theory, I find I can never keep track of what's where on it beyond the absolute top anyways. Whenever I use traditional alt-tab for more than an immediate switch to the most-recently-used, I have to stop, look at the icons, figure out how many times to press tab, and then do it, which is slow. If I just press tab until I see the icon I want highlighted, I tend to miss it, and have to cycle round again to find it. I have to agree with Mark. In my last job (I am retired now) I had to make extensive use of the Alt-Tab feature. Often it was to find (search for) a browser window (organisation was stuck on IE 6), but where it really came into its own was when switching between two applications. My productivity would have been severely limited without that simple use of the Alt-Tab feature. Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X' all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?' On the other hand, I do use a single alt-tab a lot, which would break if it was simply replaced by the spatial alternative. Maybe I'm unusual in this, or maybe a stack is still faster than spatial even though it feels slower. I dunno. I would be extremely interested if somebody did a usability and speed study on various window-switching methods though. Evan Tony ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
