Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Mark Shuttleworth wrote on 16/12/10 07:56:
>
> On 09/09/10 11:00, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
>...
>> If offline was to be a state of Presence, it would be better if i
>> could alternate between "offline" and the other states of Presence via
>> the MeMenu directly.
>> Now remains the question, why in the implementation the Presence part
>> of the MeMenu is "disabled" when all Empathy-configured accounts are
>> "offline"..
> 
> Sorry for the response to old email, but I didn't see a follow-up.
> 
> If empathy is not running, you should be able to launch it simply by
> changing your status to Available or another online state. In other
> words, the states should be achievable even if that means first starting
> empathy.
>...



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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Mark Shuttleworth]

On 09/09/10 11:00, Frederik Nnaji wrote:
> I was hoping Mission Control 5 in Telepathy would make it possible to
> change back to "online", "away" or "busy", even when Empathy says my
> accounts are "offline".
> Another thing is, that i'm being logged out, not sent offline. My
> computer is still online, it's just that IM accounts are being logged out.
> This is why i don't understand the use case of "offline", if all it
> does is actually "log out".
>
> If offline was to be a state of Presence, it would be better if i
> could alternate between "offline" and the other states of Presence via
> the MeMenu directly.
> Now remains the question, why in the implementation the Presence part
> of the MeMenu is "disabled" when all Empathy-configured accounts are
> "offline"..
>

Sorry for the response to old email, but I didn't see a follow-up.

If empathy is not running, you should be able to launch it simply by
changing your status to Available or another online state. In other
words, the states should be achievable even if that means first starting
empathy.

Mark



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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 03:53, Apoorva Sharma  wrote:

>
> To me, insensitive items are very dangerous. The only use case should be
> for expressing functionality that has been disabled by a user action, that
> is, insensitive items should appear to the user without the user making them
> so. Otherwise, the user is only confused about how the functionality will be
> enabled, or wonder why space is being wasted by this unnecessary item. Items
> that have no functionality until the user enables them should simply not be
> shown until enabled.
>

yeah, insensitive items have their disadvantages.
In this particular case, the advantage is, that you know where to find them,
and you can verify that, even when they are disabled. A central point for
broadcasting about "Me", setting the Presence state for "Me" and changing
information and account settings for "Me" is a viable concept, that can help
the novice user find her way through Ubuntu's DE.


> For the MeMenu, I think that there should be a button to turn on chat, and
> only when turned on should the state changing buttons be shown. With this
> system, showing "offline" is unnecessary, because that would simply mean
> turning chat off, and thus the on/off switch would provide the
> functionality.
>

if the ON/OFF switch you are proposing (i like) were to be positioned above
the insensitive state items, it would be easy to discover how Presence items
and "Chat ON/OFF" relate..
In that case, it wouldn't be absolutely necessary to hide the Presence
items, when Chat is off.
Personally, i can imagine both cases to be cool..
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 13:17, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:

>  Frederik Nnaji wrote on 08/09/10 02:12:
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:41, Matthew Paul Thomas  >...
> >> Frederik Nnaji wrote on 05/09/10 12:22:
> >...
> >>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
> >>> specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".
> >>>...
> >>
> >> It does specify the behavior, and it has since March. "Each item
> >> should be sensitive only if at least one of the accounts you have set
> >> up in Empathy supports that status, regardless of whether Empathy is
> >> currently running."
> >
> > yes, i simply skipped this constraint, since it doesn't specify how the
> > controls would get me out of "offline". That sort of behaviour is not
> > being addressed, intentionally not, as i am beginning to understand..
>
> The two test cases should have made it clear: both of them fail if
> the status items are disabled when you're offline. Anyway, I've
> clarified the prose now.
> 
>

Thanks a lot, MPT, it is clearer now ;)
Now remains the question, why in the implementation the Presence part of the
MeMenu is "disabled" when all Empathy-configured accounts are "offline"..
I was hoping Mission Control 5 in Telepathy would make it possible to change
back to "online", "away" or "busy", even when Empathy says my accounts are
"offline".
Another thing is, that i'm being logged out, not sent offline. My computer
is still online, it's just that IM accounts are being logged out.
This is why i don't understand the use case of "offline", if all it does is
actually "log out".

If offline was to be a state of Presence, it would be better if i could
alternate between "offline" and the other states of Presence via the MeMenu
directly.
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Frederik Nnaji wrote on 08/09/10 02:12:
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:41, Matthew Paul Thomas ...
>> Frederik Nnaji wrote on 05/09/10 12:22:
>...
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
>>> specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".
>>>...
>>
>> It does specify the behavior, and it has since March. "Each item
>> should be sensitive only if at least one of the accounts you have set
>> up in Empathy supports that status, regardless of whether Empathy is
>> currently running."
>
> yes, i simply skipped this constraint, since it doesn't specify how the
> controls would get me out of "offline". That sort of behaviour is not
> being addressed, intentionally not, as i am beginning to understand..

The two test cases should have made it clear: both of them fail if
the status items are disabled when you're offline. Anyway, I've
clarified the prose now.


- -- 
Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Apoorva Sharma]

On Sep 7, 2010, at 8:12 PM, Frederik Nnaji  wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:41, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:
> Frederik Nnaji wrote on 05/09/10 12:22:
> >...
> > On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 01:17, Apoorva Sharma  >...
> >> I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing
> >> buttons even when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user
> >> supposed to know that to turn those buttons useable, he has to go to
> >> a different menu?
> >...
> > Yeah, you can't control anything with em, yet the menu items are there..
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
> > specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".
> >...
> 
> It does specify the behavior, and it has since March. "Each item should
> be sensitive only if at least one of the accounts you have set up in
> Empathy supports that status, regardless of whether Empathy is currently
> running."
> 
> yes, i simply skipped this constraint, since it doesn't specify how the 
> controls would get me out of "offline". That sort of behaviour is not being 
> addressed, intentionally not, as i am beginning to understand..
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To me, insensitive items are very dangerous. The only use case should be for 
expressing functionality that has been disabled by a user action, that is, 
insensitive items should appear to the user without the user making them so. 
Otherwise, the user is only confused about how the functionality will be 
enabled, or wonder why space is being wasted by this unnecessary item. Items 
that have no functionality until the user enables them should simply not be 
shown until enabled.

For the MeMenu, I think that there should be a button to turn on chat, and only 
when turned on should the state changing buttons be shown. With this system, 
showing "offline" is unnecessary, because that would simply mean turning chat 
off, and thus the on/off switch would provide the functionality.___
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 12:41, Matthew Paul Thomas  wrote:

> Frederik Nnaji wrote on 05/09/10 12:22:
> >...
> > On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 01:17, Apoorva Sharma  >...
> >> I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing
> >> buttons even when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user
> >> supposed to know that to turn those buttons useable, he has to go to
> >> a different menu?
> >...
> > Yeah, you can't control anything with em, yet the menu items are there..
> > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
> > specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".
> >...
>
> It does specify the behavior, and it has since March. "Each item should
> be sensitive only if at least one of the accounts you have set up in
> Empathy supports that status, regardless of whether Empathy is currently
> running."
>

yes, i simply skipped this constraint, since it doesn't specify how the
controls would get me out of "offline". That sort of behaviour is not being
addressed, intentionally not, as i am beginning to understand..
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Frederik Nnaji wrote on 05/09/10 12:22:
>...
> On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 01:17, Apoorva Sharma ...
>> I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing
>> buttons even when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user
>> supposed to know that to turn those buttons useable, he has to go to
>> a different menu?
>...
> Yeah, you can't control anything with em, yet the menu items are there..
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
> specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".
>...

It does specify the behavior, and it has since March. "Each item should
be sensitive only if at least one of the accounts you have set up in
Empathy supports that status, regardless of whether Empathy is currently
running."

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Matthew Paul Thomas
http://mpt.net.nz/
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Frederik Nnaji]

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 13:22, Frederik Nnaji wrote:

> Hi appi,
>
> On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 01:17, Apoorva Sharma  wrote:
>
>> I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing buttons
>> even when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user supposed to know that
>> to turn those buttons useable, he has to go to a different menu?
>>
>> There was a recent thread about a memenu redesign, in which I made a
>> mockup that fixed this.
>>
>> https://cacoo.com/diagrams/ahMLE47Yv1fior3p
>>
>
> Yeah, you can't control anything with em, yet the menu items are there..
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
> specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".
>
> Ivanka herself filed a bug in this matter:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-me/+bug/550824
> wow.
>

okay, this whole apparatus is being moved from speaking with Empathy to
speaking with Telepathy directly..
I suppose the new independence MC5 offers can help make this a wonderful
experience eventually, and yes, sure it will work at some point :D
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Frederik Nnaji]

Hi appi,

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 01:17, Apoorva Sharma  wrote:

> I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing buttons even
> when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user supposed to know that to
> turn those buttons useable, he has to go to a different menu?
>
> There was a recent thread about a memenu redesign, in which I made a mockup
> that fixed this.
>
> https://cacoo.com/diagrams/ahMLE47Yv1fior3p
>

Yeah, you can't control anything with em, yet the menu items are there..
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu#Instant%20messaging%20statuses doesn't
specify MeMenu behaviour for that case, if you check "Use Cases".

Ivanka herself filed a bug in this matter:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-me/+bug/550824
wow.
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Apoorva Sharma]

I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing buttons even 
when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user supposed to know that to turn 
those buttons useable, he has to go to a different menu?

There was a recent thread about a memenu redesign, in which I made a mockup 
that fixed this.

https://cacoo.com/diagrams/ahMLE47Yv1fior3p

On Sep 3, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Frederik Nnaji  wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> i've been thinking about this one for quite a while now..
> We can't control our state of Presence (Me Menu) when empathy's presence is 
> set to "offline".
> 
> how is this situation supposed to evolve?
> 
> My own idea would be, to replace "invisible" with "offline", since i appear 
> as offline when i set my presence to invisible.
> Clicking "offline" in the current Me Menu quits all accounts in Empathy, with 
> no way of going back online.
> Perhaps then it would make sense to replace "offline" (Me Menu) with "quit".
> 
> thoughts?
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Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Apoorva Sharma]

I think the fact that the memenu even shows the state changing buttons even 
when chat is off is ridiculous. How is the user supposed to know that to turn 
those buttons useable, he has to go to a different menu?

There was a recent thread about a memenu redesign, in which I made a mockup 
that fixed this.



On Sep 3, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Frederik Nnaji  wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> i've been thinking about this one for quite a while now..
> We can't control our state of Presence (Me Menu) when empathy's presence is 
> set to "offline".
> 
> how is this situation supposed to evolve?
> 
> My own idea would be, to replace "invisible" with "offline", since i appear 
> as offline when i set my presence to invisible.
> Clicking "offline" in the current Me Menu quits all accounts in Empathy, with 
> no way of going back online.
> Perhaps then it would make sense to replace "offline" (Me Menu) with "quit".
> 
> thoughts?
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[Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu

[Frederik Nnaji]

Hi there,

i've been thinking about this one for quite a while now..
We can't control our state of Presence (Me Menu) when empathy's presence is
set to "offline".

how is this situation supposed to evolve?

My own idea would be, to replace "invisible" with "offline", since i appear
as offline when i set my presence to invisible.
Clicking "offline" in the current Me Menu quits all accounts in Empathy,
with no way of going back online.
Perhaps then it would make sense to replace "offline" (Me Menu) with "quit".

thoughts?
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