Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Thu, 2010-12-16 at 08:23 +, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 10/09/10 12:15, Bilal Akhtar wrote: On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 14:57, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: Done at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/634003 Fix available as well! Branches attached to bug report contain fix. Ted, what's the status of this? The fixes that are currently in the proposed branches use fixed color instead of symbolic names for the colors. For example, attention for the red color. Currently the symbolic color/icon work is not scheduled for the Natty cycle though I *really* hope that we can nail it for O. --Ted ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Op woensdag 01-09-2010 om 18:21 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Frederik Nnaji: Today, i did my habitual sudo apt-get update, followed by my favourite sudo apt-get upgrade. gnome-terminal showed me this: **u...@machine:~$ sudo apt-get upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages will be upgraded: bogofilter bogofilter-bdb bogofilter-common libwww-perl linux-headers-2.6.32-24 linux-headers-2.6.32-24-generic linux-image-2.6.32-24-generic linux-libc-dev 8 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 43.7MB of archives. After this operation, 0B of additional disk space will be used. Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y** As we all see, there is no notice about how installing a new linux kernel will require restarting the system to complete successfully.. If you use 'byobu' it will show a reboot required icon. That doesn't mean a warning at the end of an apt-get (dist-)upgrade run would be wrong though... -- Jan Claeys ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 14:57, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: Done at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/634003 Fix available as well! Branches attached to bug report contain fix. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 04:08, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 31/07/10 21:57, Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 21:59, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 30/07/10 20:57, Vishnoo wrote: Right , just wanted to mention that we dont need to use punctuations or brackets in menus: Restart To Complete Update... [ or s/complete/finish or any synonym ] Yes, that would fit nicely :-) perhaps in red, too? Certainly. It's still not red.. Has a decision been reached or revoked concerning this? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Thu, 2010-09-09 at 13:49 +0200, Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 21:59, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 30/07/10 20:57, Vishnoo wrote: Right , just wanted to mention that we dont need to use punctuations or brackets in menus: Restart To Complete Update... [ or s/complete/finish or any synonym ] Yes, that would fit nicely :-) perhaps in red, too? Certainly. It's still not red.. Has a decision been reached or revoked concerning this? I dont think anyone is working on that... All I did was rename the menu item with new wording, since it was easy! ;p I dont think there is a bug regarding that color change either.. Someone should first file the bug. :) -- Cheers, Vish ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 09/09/10 13:20, Vishnoo wrote: I dont think there is a bug regarding that color change either.. Someone should first file the bug. :) Done at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/634003 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 14:57, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/09/10 13:20, Vishnoo wrote: I dont think there is a bug regarding that color change either.. Someone should first file the bug. :) Done at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/634003 Thanks, SABDFL ;) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 04:31, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: I understand your position and i agree with most of it, too. While we surely share the same opinion on much of what has been discussed here, i am developing a mental model of how there can be a learnable, consistent and semantically correct symmetry between command line interface and graphical user interface.. The foundation of my unborn brainchild is that a dialog is a dialog, whether in a GUI or in the CLI.. perhaps i'm going too far with my thinking Text always appears in a context. Agreed. Dialogue needs to work in the context it's presented. Dialogue aka conversation consists of metaphors, which can be expressed and read through various carriers, e.g. * text * symbolic icons * color (green vs red, saturated vs unsaturated etc) * sound * movement (vibration on mobile devices) Text is one way to deliver the content of a message. If the text is well designed in its semantic root, it doesn't really matter what other carrier we translate it to, since the translation will always relay the intended message correctly in its respective context.. Part of the context is that provided by the user. Part of it is the visual context. My bad, i was comparing father and son, apt and update-manager. I should have suggested a text based symbolic dialog mapping of update-manager, instead of fumbling with its parent, which it extends. So because the target CLI user is somewhat different than the target GUI user and because the presentation and interaction are also different it's quite reasonable we would want different text. thank you for your patience in this conversation, it helped me understand some deeper conflicts that exist in certain areas.. My personal conflict was with the concept of a target audience.. Perhaps i will just read that as target use case from now on. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 03/09/10 05:12, David Hamm wrote: It may have taken years to make the first Elvis Sandwich, but no one can deny its tastiness.* * * * If however we are trying to achieve an orgasm then, well, you guys are on your own. And back to the topic, please ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Hello Scott, On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 05:01, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 19:58, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: On Wednesday, September 01, 2010 07:17:55 pm Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 19:16, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: If you're using apt-get, then you aren't in the target audience Ayatana is designing for. I think the CLI is definitely part of an ordinary Ubuntu experience for about 50% of Ubuntu users.. imagine getting workarounds from forums and wiki sites into place without guiding the novice through the CLI for a few commands.. Apart from that, getting the CLI dialogs right is an essential step in the evolution of interface metaphors. The GUI is born in the CLI, if you ask me.. Right is a function of the audience. I think that CLI package management users are more likely to be annoyed by excessively nanyish warnings from their package manager than helped by them. I agree, right depends on who's lookin. on another note.. i'm feeling like there's still too much developer vs consumer here.. Traits of elitarism. The new concept is prosumer aka community-driven, everyone contributes, using is participating already. There is also little sense in classifying groups of users by the applications they use in this particular context: community is a classless system. That's only true if you don't care about losing the people that got Ubuntu to the edge of the chasm. I'm reasonably certain that's not the case. I meant no harm or disrespect to the great characters who shaped much of what we know as Free today.. My personal point of view is simply that software under the hood of Ubuntu will be unreasonable, if it splits the community into a system of classes.. I am open for other opinions: perhaps you expand on why community is not a classless system .. or did i get you wrong in all? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Friday, September 03, 2010 04:23:01 pm Frederik Nnaji wrote: Hello Scott, On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 05:01, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 19:58, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: On Wednesday, September 01, 2010 07:17:55 pm Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 19:16, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: If you're using apt-get, then you aren't in the target audience Ayatana is designing for. I think the CLI is definitely part of an ordinary Ubuntu experience for about 50% of Ubuntu users.. imagine getting workarounds from forums and wiki sites into place without guiding the novice through the CLI for a few commands.. Apart from that, getting the CLI dialogs right is an essential step in the evolution of interface metaphors. The GUI is born in the CLI, if you ask me.. Right is a function of the audience. I think that CLI package management users are more likely to be annoyed by excessively nanyish warnings from their package manager than helped by them. I agree, right depends on who's lookin. on another note.. i'm feeling like there's still too much developer vs consumer here.. Traits of elitarism. The new concept is prosumer aka community-driven, everyone contributes, using is participating already. There is also little sense in classifying groups of users by the applications they use in this particular context: community is a classless system. That's only true if you don't care about losing the people that got Ubuntu to the edge of the chasm. I'm reasonably certain that's not the case. I meant no harm or disrespect to the great characters who shaped much of what we know as Free today.. My personal point of view is simply that software under the hood of Ubuntu will be unreasonable, if it splits the community into a system of classes.. I am open for other opinions: perhaps you expand on why community is not a classless system .. or did i get you wrong in all? Not all users have the same level of experience. That's unavoidable. In general (not always, but in general) more experienced users will be more like to use more command line tools in their regular use of the system. As a result, I think it's a safe assumption that the typical command line user knows more about the system than one would consider normal for GUI based tools. More experienced users tend to find excessive warnings about things that are generally well understood to be off-putting. Adding them as Ubuntu specific changes reinforces the notion that Ubuntu is only for beginners and not for people who know what they are doing. We don't want that. So feel free to put all the training wheels you think are needed in the GUI, but don't extend the same concepts to the command line. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 22:30, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: Not all users have the same level of experience. That's unavoidable. that's good, diversity is an asset, not a staller. In general (not always, but in general) more experienced users will be more like to use more command line tools in their regular use of the system. As a result, I think it's a safe assumption that the typical command line user knows more about the system than one would consider normal for GUI based tools. Yep, makes sense to me.. More experienced users tend to find excessive warnings about things that are generally well understood to be off-putting.Adding them as Ubuntu specific changes reinforces the notion that Ubuntu is only for beginners and not for people who know what they are doing. We don't want that. So feel free to put all the training wheels you think are needed in the GUI, but don't extend the same concepts to the command line. I understand your position and i agree with most of it, too. While we surely share the same opinion on much of what has been discussed here, i am developing a mental model of how there can be a learnable, consistent and semantically correct symmetry between command line interface and graphical user interface.. The foundation of my unborn brainchild is that a dialog is a dialog, whether in a GUI or in the CLI.. perhaps i'm going too far with my thinking Text always appears in a context. Dialogue needs to work in the context it's presented. Part of the context is that provided by the user. Part of it is the visual context. So because the target CLI user is somewhat different than the target GUI user and because the presentation and interaction are also different it's quite reasonable we would want different text. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 1 September 2010 17:56, Walter Wittel witt...@gmail.com wrote: I think for people using the command line this is nice but not required because a list of packages is there for them to see. I think advance notification for the GUI would be much more appreciated as those users are less likely to know a kernel update == reboot. As I've mentioned before on this list, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to warn people before an update this update will require a restart to complete as they may be led to believe that the restart will be required *immediately* after the update. In fact the restart is only required to actually start using the new version of the kernel (for example). I think a warning that this update will require a restart will put some people off running the upgrade, especially if they are in the middle of working on something, and is likely to lead to updates not being applied for longer by some people, while offering no real benefits to anyone. The exception to this is Firefox, but I believe there is already some discussion going on about solving the issue of firefox requiring a restart right after an upgrade. -- Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Hi Matt, On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 19:02, Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org wrote: I think a warning that this update will require a restart will put some people off running the upgrade, especially if they are in the middle of working on something, and is likely to lead to updates not being applied for longer by some people, while offering no real benefits to anyone. the current situation is, that both warning and NOT warning the user are being practised. This sends the user a mixed message: first, upgrades / updates are afforded to the user, no warning whatsoever.. ..shortly before the updating/upgrading is complete, the user is warned, that a restart is required. The problem with naming an action that is a menu item Restart Required is, that it is an informative phrase and not an action. The menu item should carry the wording that describes the action it invokes, not a description of its use case. The red coloring of the power icon on top of the Session Menu represents the warning, where previously in the process the software was designed NOT to issue any warning about the state Restart Required. Mixed messages confuse the user and wrong labels on menu items or buttons make it difficult to control the system altogether. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Thursday, September 02, 2010 01:02:21 pm Matt Wheeler wrote: The exception to this is Firefox, but I believe there is already some discussion going on about solving the issue of firefox requiring a restart right after an upgrade. My solution to that problem (and others) was to switch to Chromiuim. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Wednesday, September 01, 2010 07:17:55 pm Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 19:16, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: If you're using apt-get, then you aren't in the target audience Ayatana is designing for. I think the CLI is definitely part of an ordinary Ubuntu experience for about 50% of Ubuntu users.. imagine getting workarounds from forums and wiki sites into place without guiding the novice through the CLI for a few commands.. Apart from that, getting the CLI dialogs right is an essential step in the evolution of interface metaphors. The GUI is born in the CLI, if you ask me.. Right is a function of the audience. I think that CLI package management users are more likely to be annoyed by excessively nanyish warnings from their package manager than helped by them. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 2 September 2010 18:30, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Matt, the current situation is, that both warning and NOT warning the user are being practised. This sends the user a mixed message: first, upgrades / updates are afforded to the user, no warning whatsoever.. What would be the advantage of warning users before an upgrade begins that the upgrade will require a restart to be completed? That's the point of what I'm saying. ..shortly before the updating/upgrading is complete, the user is warned, that a restart is required. Yes, the user needs to be warned that a restart is required at some point to actually start using the new versions of whatever has been updated. I see no advantage to doing this before the updates are installed though, and some disadvantages (mainly that users may be unnecessarily put off performing the updates). The problem with naming an action that is a menu item Restart Required is, that it is an informative phrase and not an action. The menu item should carry the wording that describes the action it invokes, not a description of its use case. The red coloring of the power icon on top of the Session Menu represents the warning, where previously in the process the software was designed NOT to issue any warning about the state Restart Required. Mixed messages confuse the user and wrong labels on menu items or buttons make it difficult to control the system altogether. I agree that the presentation in the session menu could be improved to inform users better why a restart is needed. I also find it somewhat inaccurate that the restart option is highlighted, but shut down isn't, again I feel this could lead some users to believe they have to restart their computer before they can shut it down, when really either option would be as good as the other. None of this, in my mind, gives any reason to warn users before running updates that a restart will be required after the update. Thanks -- Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 23:50, Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org wrote: On 2 September 2010 18:30, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Matt, the current situation is, that both warning and NOT warning the user are being practised. This sends the user a mixed message: first, upgrades / updates are afforded to the user, no warning whatsoever.. What would be the advantage of warning users before an upgrade begins that the upgrade will require a restart to be completed? That's the point of what I'm saying. Good point! The next couple of lines might contain redundant ideas, do you want to continue? [Y/N] ..shortly before the updating/upgrading is complete, the user is warned, that a restart is required. Yes, the user needs to be warned that a restart is required at some point to actually start using the new versions of whatever has been updated. Really, this should be a positive notification, not a warning. If we get this right, the problem we are discussing here will dissolve imo. I'd say WARNING is the wrong term, RED the wrong color and REQUIRED a totally misleading word in this context. Affordance, better than irritatation. As long as there is no absolutely crucial security fix among the updates that would *require* a restart, a restart is factually not required - warnings obsolete. I see no advantage to doing this before the updates are installed though, and some disadvantages (mainly that users may be unnecessarily put off performing the updates). correct. If i inform about so and so many kilobytes of diskspace will be used, perhaps it is equally fair to inform that a restart will be required to commit the upgrade finally. How to formulate that information usefully at this point is another problem, but omitting this info entirely is an option i would prefer, so perhaps we should simply consider advertising instead of warning. The problem with naming an action that is a menu item Restart Required is, that it is an informative phrase and not an action. The menu item should carry the wording that describes the action it invokes, not a description of its use case. The red coloring of the power icon on top of the Session Menu represents the warning, where previously in the process the software was designed NOT to issue any warning about the state Restart Required. Mixed messages confuse the user and wrong labels on menu items or buttons make it difficult to control the system altogether. I agree that the presentation in the session menu could be improved to inform users better why a restart is needed. I also find it somewhat inaccurate that the restart option is highlighted, but shut down isn't, again I feel this could lead some users to believe they have to restart their computer before they can shut it down, when really either option would be as good as the other. None of this, in my mind, gives any reason to warn users before running updates that a restart will be required after the update. +1 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 19:58, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: On Wednesday, September 01, 2010 07:17:55 pm Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 19:16, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: If you're using apt-get, then you aren't in the target audience Ayatana is designing for. I think the CLI is definitely part of an ordinary Ubuntu experience for about 50% of Ubuntu users.. imagine getting workarounds from forums and wiki sites into place without guiding the novice through the CLI for a few commands.. Apart from that, getting the CLI dialogs right is an essential step in the evolution of interface metaphors. The GUI is born in the CLI, if you ask me.. Right is a function of the audience. I think that CLI package management users are more likely to be annoyed by excessively nanyish warnings from their package manager than helped by them. I agree, right depends on who's lookin. on another note.. i'm feeling like there's still too much developer vs consumer here.. Traits of elitarism. The new concept is prosumer aka community-driven, everyone contributes, using is participating already. There is also little sense in classifying groups of users by the applications they use in this particular context: community is a classless system. That's only true if you don't care about losing the people that got Ubuntu to the edge of the chasm. I'm reasonably certain that's not the case. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
It may have taken years to make the first Elvis Sandwich, but no one can deny its tastiness.* * * * If however we are trying to achieve an orgasm then, well, you guys are on your own. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Here's how i would personally prefer the text to be displayed: u...@machine:~$ sudo apt-get upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done The following packages will be upgraded: bogofilter bogofilter-bdb bogofilter-common libwww-perl linux-headers-2.6.32-24 linux-headers-2.6.32-24-generic linux-image-2.6.32-24-generic linux-libc-dev 8 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded. Need to get 43.7MB of archives. After this operation, 0B of additional disk space will be used. This operation will require a system restart! Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Would that be too cheesy? I suppose the Restart Required state is stored in a variable somewhere in apt.. ? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
I think for people using the command line this is nice but not required because a list of packages is there for them to see. I think advance notification for the GUI would be much more appreciated as those users are less likely to know a kernel update == reboot. On Sep 1, 2010 9:44 AM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Here's how i would personally prefer the text to be displayed: u...@machine:~$ sudo apt-get upgrade Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree R... This operation will require a system restart! Do you want to continue [Y/n]? Would that be too cheesy? I suppose the Restart Required state is stored in a variable somewhere in apt.. ? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
What if the update involves the javascript engine or fixes a bug with the cookie jar. Things are different after an update thus its impossible to completely restore the experience. Newer web application will maybe, probably already handle all the save state stuff, data in real time. The browser just has to get you back to the location. If the website can't cope with something simple like that the user will probably blame the website. of course this is my ideal explanation. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Hi Mark ;) On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 23:03, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 03/08/10 20:25, Matt Wheeler wrote: In reality (as ScottK has already mentioned) only Firefox *needs* a restart after an update, everything else will just continue to run the slightly out of date version until you get around to restarting it. Boy, I wish we could tell Firefox to save state, restart, and restore everything exactly, that restart experience is really bad (the warning, the breakage if you don't do it, it's all poor, and if every app did that we'd be a mess!). doesn't Firefox do something like this if you do ToolsStart_Private_Browsing? wouldn't there be a sort of dump-file from which Ff recovers the session afterwards? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Florian, On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 17:37, Florian Bruhin m...@the-compiler.org wrote: 2010/8/2 Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com: *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. As fair as I know, it does not. However, a warning like this indicates something like Your system will not work at all when you don't restart as soon as the update is complete. In fact, this would most likely prevent some users from installing these updates, as they don't have the time or aren't in the mood to restart the computer in the middle of their workflow. well then obviously yes, right? If a restart is necessary and the system would become unstable otherwise, that's a clear danger on a production machine. Not alerting the user about this consequence of an action he is about to make is like selling poison in water bottles.. me no like. That isn't what happens. With the exception of Firefox updates, the old version works fine until restart. What you don't get is the benefit of the update. Firefox will stop working if not restarted (and warns about this). Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 19:21, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Florian, On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 17:37, Florian Bruhin m...@the-compiler.org wrote: 2010/8/2 Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com: *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. As fair as I know, it does not. However, a warning like this indicates something like Your system will not work at all when you don't restart as soon as the update is complete. In fact, this would most likely prevent some users from installing these updates, as they don't have the time or aren't in the mood to restart the computer in the middle of their workflow. well then obviously yes, right? If a restart is necessary and the system would become unstable otherwise, that's a clear danger on a production machine. Not alerting the user about this consequence of an action he is about to make is like selling poison in water bottles.. me no like. That isn't what happens. With the exception of Firefox updates, the old version works fine until restart. What you don't get is the benefit of the update. Firefox will stop working if not restarted (and warns about this). Scott K so then red is the wrong color ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 19:21, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Florian, On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 17:37, Florian Bruhin m...@the-compiler.org wrote: 2010/8/2 Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com: *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. As fair as I know, it does not. However, a warning like this indicates something like Your system will not work at all when you don't restart as soon as the update is complete. In fact, this would most likely prevent some users from installing these updates, as they don't have the time or aren't in the mood to restart the computer in the middle of their workflow. well then obviously yes, right? If a restart is necessary and the system would become unstable otherwise, that's a clear danger on a production machine. Not alerting the user about this consequence of an action he is about to make is like selling poison in water bottles.. me no like. That isn't what happens. With the exception of Firefox updates, the old version works fine until restart. What you don't get is the benefit of the update. Firefox will stop working if not restarted (and warns about this). Scott K so then red is the wrong color Depends on what fix isn't in place. Leaving a remote root exploit in place seems pretty red to me. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott Kitterman wrote on 03/08/10 19:23: Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 19:21, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com ... Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: ... On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 17:37, Florian Bruhin m...@the-compiler.org ... 2010/8/2 Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com: *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. In the update handling specification, I've specified that it should. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdateHandling#alert (For the implementation, see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-distiguishing-updates-that-require-restart. I don't know how far that ever went.) ... With the exception of Firefox updates, the old version works fine until restart. What you don't get is the benefit of the update. Firefox will stop working if not restarted (and warns about this). ... so then red is the wrong color Depends on what fix isn't in place. Leaving a remote root exploit in place seems pretty red to me. ... But you're no less secure, at that moment, than you were when Ubuntu knew the update was available but you hadn't installed it yet. Should the icon be red then too? And if not, why should it be red now? - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxYZ8YACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecp7NgCeNXYmKPMs4m7HFRgj/HYvlwFh CVsAn1TZcq8eK2TyfPTyZU70CD1HGN4/ =+3Ux -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 2 August 2010 20:35, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: When clicking Install Updates in update-manager, USER should be warned explicitly that doing so will require a restart. USER should know this well, before updating. *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. A potential problem with the wording you've used is that users may be put off actually doing the updates. In reality (as ScottK has already mentioned) only Firefox *needs* a restart after an update, everything else will just continue to run the slightly out of date version until you get around to restarting it. -- Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 20:23, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: so then red is the wrong color Depends on what fix isn't in place. Leaving a remote root exploit in place seems pretty red to me. Scott K good, so let me list the update cases: * important security update * kernel update * firefox update * trivial update what am i missing? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Scott Kitterman wrote on 03/08/10 19:23: Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 19:21, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com ... Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: ... On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 17:37, Florian Bruhin m...@the-compiler.org ... 2010/8/2 Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com: *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. In the update handling specification, I've specified that it should. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdateHandling#alert (For the implementation, see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-lucid-distiguishing-updates-that-require-restart. I don't know how far that ever went.) ... With the exception of Firefox updates, the old version works fine until restart. What you don't get is the benefit of the update. Firefox will stop working if not restarted (and warns about this). ... so then red is the wrong color Depends on what fix isn't in place. Leaving a remote root exploit in place seems pretty red to me. ... But you're no less secure, at that moment, than you were when Ubuntu knew the update was available but you hadn't installed it yet. Should the icon be red then too? And if not, why should it be red now? I'd say it should be red all along. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 03/08/10 20:25, Matt Wheeler wrote: In reality (as ScottK has already mentioned) only Firefox *needs* a restart after an update, everything else will just continue to run the slightly out of date version until you get around to restarting it. Boy, I wish we could tell Firefox to save state, restart, and restore everything exactly, that restart experience is really bad (the warning, the breakage if you don't do it, it's all poor, and if every app did that we'd be a mess!). Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Mon, 2010-08-02 at 09:40 -0500, Cody Russell wrote: So I've gone ahead and made this change in bzr, but seb128 is pointing out that this longer string is much more awkward for translations. See his comment on the bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/586928/comments/4 Translators often dont translate verbatim and they shouldnt be. They usually use the most appropriate wording. That said ,even if the menu ends up longer for a translation, this is not a permanent menu item and is displayed only when a restart is required. Which is better than having an ambiguous menu item which user would not easily understand. [If the user notices the start icon turning red , there is no indication why.] A red Restart required can be mistaken even for system burning up and hence requiring a restart too. ;) -- Cheers, Vish ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Could you not have a heading Action Required for Update and then the required action, Log Out (for session changes) or Restart (for kernel changes)? That way the list of actions never changes, just some get prioritised with a reason. On Mon, 2010-08-02 at 21:35 +0200, Frederik Nnaji wrote: When clicking Install Updates in update-manager, USER should be warned explicitly that doing so will require a restart. USER should know this well, before updating. *Does* Ubuntu warn the user beforehand that the updates about to be made will eventually require a restart? I can't recall.. On Mon, 2010-08-02 at 09:40 -0500, Cody Russell wrote: So I've gone ahead and made this change in bzr thanks a lot, Cody ;) Is the Restart To Complete Updates.. text red now? On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 19:19, Vishnoo v...@ubuntu.com wrote: That said ,even if the menu ends up longer for a translation, this is not a permanent menu item and is displayed only when a restart is required. This solution is functional, but far from elegant, as you already pointed out between the lines. * Log Out * Suspend * Hibernate * Restart * Shutdown All verbs. All unambiguous instructions. Restart Required was different completely in that Restart is a noun here, first of all. This was inconsistent and confusing.. good we got rid of it! The new formulation is definitely closer to a correct solution.. On the other hand, adding a whole sentence where a single word (Restart) worked perfectly introduces a regression problem, but i'll stop my bikeshed commentary for now ;) Which is better than having an ambiguous menu item which user would not easily understand. MPT's spec¹ places an info icon beside the Restart menu item, when a restart is required. I think adding this visual metaphor contributes greatly to solving our problem. ¹https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SessionMenu ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Restart Required
hello there ;) is anybody working on the FUSA currently? Allow me to raise the topic for brief elaboration.. Restart Required seems incorrect to me: after executing a partial upgrade, Ubuntu shows two red elements in the indicator area of my top panel * dysfunctional conman * FUSA in alert condition first of all, restart required is not an action, it is an informative sentence, therefore it doesn't belong into any menu as an interactive menu item. One could instead place it above the FUSA as it is opened on click via its indicator icon in the panel. Furthermore, the red color on the indicator-session icon calls ERROR or network-failure to mind, this is not correct in this case. We are not failing anything, there also is no error, so red is incorrect in this situation. Perhaps yellow or orange, maybe blue. The fact of colorization alone should be informative enough for the user to notice timely. A hover in that screen corner should also reveal the suggested action: upgrade complete, please restart the computer. The menu item should not change IMO, it should still be called Restart. My original idea of indicators when i first heard about them was that they would turn out to be website-like multi-state buttons, perhaps animated and with some alpha ;) Since we decided to dismiss the menus upon action, except for indicator-sound, why not keep the activity i called via a menu item indicated via mouse cursor sometimes? for Restarting i can imagine a clean visual metaphor, as it exists already: an animated power switch. I guess MPT designed something like that already in one of his documents.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30 July 2010 16:31, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: hello there ;) is anybody working on the FUSA currently? Allow me to raise the topic for brief elaboration.. Restart Required seems incorrect to me: after executing a partial upgrade, Ubuntu shows two red elements in the indicator area of my top panel * dysfunctional conman * FUSA in alert condition first of all, restart required is not an action, it is an informative sentence, therefore it doesn't belong into any menu as an interactive menu item. One could instead place it above the FUSA as it is opened on click via its indicator icon in the panel. Furthermore, the red color on the indicator-session icon calls ERROR or network-failure to mind, this is not correct in this case. We are not failing anything, there also is no error, so red is incorrect in this situation. Perhaps yellow or orange, maybe blue. The fact of colorization alone should be informative enough for the user to notice timely. A hover in that screen corner should also reveal the suggested action: upgrade complete, please restart the computer. The menu item should not change IMO, it should still be called Restart. +1 The red indicator has been a bug bear of mine for a while, red is far to severe a colour for something that isn't an error condition. I'd again suggest blue for information, or at most an amber to indicate a warning (I guess it's possible a kernel update had a security fix). Also, Restart required isn't an action, and it's not required. Restart (recommended) might make more sense, brackets differentiating the action from the recommendation. Luke. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 16:44, Luke Benstead wrote: The red indicator has been a bug bear of mine for a while, red is far to severe a colour for something that isn't an error condition. I'd again suggest blue for information, or at most an amber to indicate a warning (I guess it's possible a kernel update had a security fix). The strong likelihood is that you are insecure until you reboot, so we class it as a warning and make it red. Also, Restart required isn't an action, and it's not required. Restart (recommended) might make more sense, brackets differentiating the action from the recommendation. Agreed, the language is bad. The current plan is to change it to Restart, completing updates... which is more accurate. Still open to a better choice of words if you have something in mind. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 18:26 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 30/07/10 16:44, Luke Benstead wrote: The red indicator has been a bug bear of mine for a while, red is far to severe a colour for something that isn't an error condition. I'd again suggest blue for information, or at most an amber to indicate a warning (I guess it's possible a kernel update had a security fix). The strong likelihood is that you are insecure until you reboot, so we class it as a warning and make it red. Also, Restart required isn't an action, and it's not required. Restart (recommended) might make more sense, brackets differentiating the action from the recommendation. Agreed, the language is bad. The current plan is to change it to Restart, completing updates... which is more accurate. Still open to a better choice of words if you have something in mind. I've tried to look for gnome-menu items with commas or explanation words within brackets but have not noticed any. Usually where text needs to be an explanation , menu item tends to be longer. [ex: evolution, Download Messages for Offline Usage . really shouldnt be citing evo as an example, but it had the longest I could find ;)] How about : Restart To Apply Updates... or Restart and Apply Updates... -- Cheers, Vish ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 19:24, Vishnoo wrote: How about : Restart To Apply Updates... or Restart and Apply Updates... Could do, yes. By then the updates have been installed, so I was looking for language which indicated that the update process wasn't complete. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 20:01, Martin Owens wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 19:31 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Could do, yes. By then the updates have been installed, so I was looking for language which indicated that the update process wasn't complete. Could the level of warning not be directly related to the severity of the security problems in the update? I don't think we know - it's either reboot required or not. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 20:01, Martin Owens wrote: Could the level of warning not be directly related to the severity of the security problems in the update? Also... we don't want to get too anorack about this. In theory, we could use blue for informational updates, orange for low priority updates and red for critical security. But that's more likely to confuse people than help them. So for the moment we'll pick one colour and stick to it. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 20:57, Vishnoo wrote: Right , just wanted to mention that we dont need to use punctuations or brackets in menus: Restart To Complete Update... [ or s/complete/finish or any synonym ] Yes, that would fit nicely :-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
Hi Vish, Hi Conscious ;) On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 21:57, Vishnoo v...@ubuntu.com wrote: On a related note, we first need to fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpkg/+bug/548981 Once that is fixed , the session-menu wording and the icon changing only after the update would all fit well. wow, i wasn't aware that this was a problem! now would be a good time to introduce a large indicator for progress.. especially system maintenance load should gradually begin to visualize superficially, so we can observe how much of our computer's power is truly being consumed by technology and how much of it is intelligent interaction with human input.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart required indicator
I quite like the transparency toggle. The other indicators seem to imply selection. Also, what about altering the colour as a means of notification? Thanks, Sohail Mirza -- sfm On Mar 30, 2010 12:59 PM, Vishnoo drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 22:05 -0500, Ted Gould wrote: On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 16:17 -0400, Jim Rorie wrote: Could you not use red arrows like the blue... Actually those blue arrows stick out in an otherwise monochrome menu. It would probably be better to use the new checkmarks or the radiomarks , instead of the color icons. [mockup attached] Or just toggle transparencies of the active application icons. Currently there are too many rows of info there. -- Cheers, Vish ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart required indicator
I think someone mentioned dots earlier. Makes sense from a grammatical point, since the each of the operations is an end point for the current session. On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 22:05 -0500, Ted Gould wrote: On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 16:17 -0400, Jim Rorie wrote: Could you not use red arrows like the blue ones in the messaging indicator? Yes, icons would be fine. We should probably come up with something more holistic as was mentioned in another fork of this thread. I'm not sure that Application Running and Restart Required are really similar enough to warrant the same graphic. I guess you could look at it as Attention Required but that's not really the point of the ones in the messaging menu today. --Ted smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart required indicator
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 22:05 -0500, Ted Gould wrote: On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 16:17 -0400, Jim Rorie wrote: Could you not use red arrows like the blue ones in the messaging indicator? Yes, icons would be fine. We should probably come up with something more holistic as was mentioned in another fork of this thread. I'm not sure that Application Running and Restart Required are really similar enough to warrant the same graphic. I guess you could look at it as Attention Required but that's not really the point of the ones in the messaging menu today. --Ted Actually those blue arrows stick out in an otherwise monochrome menu. It would probably be better to use the new checkmarks or the radiomarks , instead of the color icons. [mockup attached] Or just toggle transparencies of the active application icons. Currently there are too many rows of info there. -- Cheers, Vish attachment: Screenshot-1.png___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart required indicator
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 20:19 +0100, David Balch wrote: A further refinement would be to make the Restart required... text in the menu red as well, to tie the meaning of the icon colour to the menu action... The current theming system makes that unrealistic. The application can provide icon names, so that the icons match the theme, but we can't provide text color names. So if we changed the text color to red it could be placed on something like a red background and be invisible. --Ted signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart required indicator
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 8:19 PM, David Balch da...@balch.co.uk wrote: Hi, I really like that the power icon goes red when a restart is required - good job! A further refinement would be to make the Restart required... text in the menu red as well, to tie the meaning of the icon colour to the menu action... Cheers, Dave. -- http://www.witchesband.com/ I was wanting to discuss this as well. Right now we have this beautifully consistent way of saying an indicator wants attention. However, once you open a lit up indicator, it is not apparent why it is lit up. For example, when the volume applet turns red while muted (an excellent little touch!), it isn't actually clear why it is red. One can click it and sees the same information he always sees. If he has explicitly asked to play sound it'll make sense, but otherwise not so much. The thing that immediately occurs to me (but could be a terrible idea) is to have a note at the top of the menu, or some kind of tooltip (of a magic new variety that appears below the widget as soon as one puts the mouse over it or selects it) saying [application_name] is trying to play sound. For 10.10, I think it would be worth exploring a standard way for the indicators to say what that urgent bit of news is. It would be nice if a solution to that problem could be consistent with the message indicator (which currently does not highlight new messages in a particularly obvious fashion). Another thing to ponder, consistency-wise, is the Me menu where we have a selected radio button icon for the current status (which directly relates to the indicator's icon), and the Rhythmbox status indicator which, when music is playing, says what is playing via a disabled menu item at the top of its menu. Bye! Dylan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart required indicator
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 16:17 -0400, Jim Rorie wrote: Could you not use red arrows like the blue ones in the messaging indicator? Yes, icons would be fine. We should probably come up with something more holistic as was mentioned in another fork of this thread. I'm not sure that Application Running and Restart Required are really similar enough to warrant the same graphic. I guess you could look at it as Attention Required but that's not really the point of the ones in the messaging menu today. --Ted signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
